2.50 a gallon Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 I am tired of the general opinion that the BS is totally innocent. From what I have experienced, especially with BH, this is hardly the truth. The truth is we men, continue to see life from a man's point of view, and hardly ever figure out much less see life through a woman's eyes. Time after time, in the Separation & Divorce section, a BH will post their story, and include, lines such as, I spent too much time playing games on the computer, I had a drinking, gambling problem, I was abusive, etc. And guess what she found another man to take my place, and now no longer listens too me. To me it is like someone leaving their keys in the car at the mall and crying foul when they return to find someone has stolen it. 3
cocorico Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 . Quibbling over semantics doesn't change anything. It is what it is. Putting down the very obvious differences between two entirely different scenarios to "semantics" shows an inability or unwillingness to understand how different the two scenarios are. I am always struck by the tenacity with which some BS argue these types of positions, given how readily it suggests why a WS may have felt frustrated by their partner's inability or unwillingness to understand their frustrations and thus why they needed to look elsewhere. I would have thought that a BS would be interested to try to understand what may have led to their WS's wanderings, rather than simply adopting a head-in-sand approach of "they did what they wanted, that's all there is to it" kind of view which does not move anyone's understand any further. 1
cocorico Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 I think the difference is: did the WS exhibit a pattern of cheating or other cowardly behavior before the BS married them or did this come up post marriage? So either, they were always "lyin' cheatin' scum" or M to the BS developed those qualities in them? not sure which of those scenarios would be preferable, myself.... 1
JourneyLady Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 (edited) I am tired of the general opinion that the BS is totally innocent. From what I have experienced, especially with BH, this is hardly the truth. The truth is we men, continue to see life from a man's point of view, and hardly ever figure out much less see life through a woman's eyes. Time after time, in the Separation & Divorce section, a BH will post their story, and include, lines such as, I spent too much time playing games on the computer, I had a drinking, gambling problem, I was abusive, etc. And guess what she found another man to take my place, and now no longer listens too me. To me it is like someone leaving their keys in the car at the mall and crying foul when they return to find someone has stolen it. I would make the metaphor more like the key in the time machine where if you take the key out, the time machine goes elsewhere... But... the spouse is not a machine. The WS does have a choice. There are spouses that make the issues known and there are spouses that don't. There's negotiations on how deep you go into those issues. My XH only made his issues in the R known within the last 60 seconds of the hour of our marriage (metaphoricly). That is to say, the time between losing his fear of confrontation (starting to feel for someone else) and deciding to end the marriage. Before that time, he never confronted me about anything - even things that were obviously bad on my part (and I take responsibility for those). After that time, there was the complete and utter withdrawal. Inbetween there was about ONE WEEK in which he started to make issues known and list things that were bothering him. (All while he was seeing her.) Even then he didn't state they were divorce-able issues. And... he was looking for things to be wrong. I had complained for several years that he'd come home and just want to go straight to his office and work. One day that week he comes home and I was winding up a bit of work on a book project and needed five minutes to save files. He then complains I didn't jump to spend time with him immediately upon his arrival, phrasing it as if it was something I was always not doing. I'll never forget that as it shocked me he was accusing me of something he'd always done himself... Yeah, like I could do something about those issues to overcome the lust he was feeling for her in a week. I was trying and I did wake up out of my own fog -- I just couldn't snap my fingers fast enough. Edited March 30, 2014 by JourneyLady
Hope Shimmers Posted March 30, 2014 Posted March 30, 2014 Some recent discussion on here has me thinking. Some om/ow feel that if a married person wants to get involved with them they are fair game, as it's not their responsibility to respect someone else's M. I don't really agree, but that's not what this thread is about. As a former OW (repentant, despite the fact that ex-MM was separated when we became involved) I agree that people should respect others' marriages. However, I also see the rationale that many people hold, which is - why should a stranger to the BS be respectful of a WS's marriage when the WS himself/herself is completely disrespecting it? The WS being the person who made the vows, and so on and so forth. So I can see both sides of that one. If I were the BS, I would certainly spend A LOT more time being upset that the WS disrespected the marriage rather than about OW's disrespect, but in my opinion, after reading lots of posts on here, that doesn't always seem to be the case. Some of these same people will then paint a picture of a bs who is somehow holding mm/mw "hostage", and the only reason they won't leave is that the bs ( or someone else, even their kids) is pressuring them to stay. How can this be? If a om/ow can't force them to cheat if they don't want to, then surely no bs or anyone else can force them to stay if they don't want to. My opinion is that the mm/mw/ws does what they do because they want to, and unless they are mentally ill, is fully capable of making their own choices and is doing just that. Honestly... I'm having trouble even understanding why this is debatable. Of course the MM/MW/WS does what they want. Unless the BS and/or kids have WS locked in the cellar and tied up with chains, then he/she is making the decision he/she "wants" to make. My ex-MM went back to his marriage and although he is unhappily married, I hold no delusions that he was forced to do anything. He did it because he "wanted" to. His reasons didn't make him happy in the marriage, but of course it was his decision and his alone.
jellybean89 Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 In this day and age, with electronic communication, disposable cell phones, etc., if a ws wants to communicate with their former om or ow, they could find a way. When they don't, some are quick to say that it's only because the bs is " monitoring" them. ..... if a ws really wanted to, they would find a reach out. I agree. A cheater isn't monitored 24/7. They do have moments of being alone and able to reach out. They do not reach out because they do not want to reach out. Seems to me that be a person a bs or an ow/om, it's hard to face that the person you love could do treat you that way. After all, you've invested so much time, effort, trust and love in the relationship, only to have it down back in your face. It hurts, and it's hard to accept. It's easier to blame someone else. I agree. It is sad that people do not own their own issues and decisions. I see all the time "you can't help who you fall in love with" and I do not believe in that kind of thinking. You can help who you fall in love with - if someone is married, then you take the necessary steps to ensure you are not alone with that person, engaging in emotional or physical contact and making the decision to not get entangled with someone who is already committed to someone else. The cheater may still choose to find someone to cheat with, and that's on them. Really doesn't matter what kind of person the BS s....the BS is accountable for their own character. The OW is responsible for HER choice to be in a relationship with someone who is married, therefore, by every rational and ethical standard, not available. Sorry, no matter what the BS may or may not be, the OW is STILL responsible for choosing to be part of an A. Period. We can shift and distract, and do a neat flaming baton dance of evasion all we want. When someone is involved with a married person (who is married to someone else) they ARE choosing to be part of an A and they ARE choosing to damage a family. Period. Own it. I owned my wayward crap. Just OWN your stuff. ^^^ completely agree ^^^ and stay married..... even when they see the evidence time and time again and some OW continue having an affair with someone who has shown them time and time again that they aren't leaving the marriage. At least the married betrayed person has history, possibly kids and finances (and a legal contract called a marriage license) wrapped up with the cheater; the OW doesn't have that. She has stolen moments, snippets of time and knowledge that the cheater goes home to the wife time and time again. So why do you feel is makes the wife any less because she stays (and has all the above noted things linking her to the cheater) but the OW doesn't have any of that and continues to engage in the affair year after year? Doesn't the OW see the evidence time and time again that the MM isn't leaving?
Hope Shimmers Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 - if someone is married, then you take the necessary steps to ensure you are not alone with that person, engaging in emotional or physical contact and making the decision to not get entangled with someone who is already committed to someone else. I don't disagree, but I would go further to say this (even more important but seems to never get mentioned): If someone is married, then THEY should take the necessary steps to ensure that THEY are not alone with another woman and they are not getting entangled emotionally or physically with someone outside of their marriage. 1
Author rumbleseat Posted March 31, 2014 Author Posted March 31, 2014 As I have said, it's really painful to know that the person you love and trust could hurt you so much. It's a hard thing to face, but somehow, once you do, it can actually give you strength. In a m situation, a bs can use this realization to help them in their decision about what to do. Does it seem like a " one off" aberration, or will they do it again? I firmly believe that a ws who takes responsibility for their choices instead of blaming the om/ow for the a is already a step ahead. I'm not sure how this would play out for an ow/om, but maybe once they realize the mp is staying m because they chose to do so, all on their own, then they can begin to let go. So long as they blame the actions of the mp on the bs, it leaves the door open, in their heart, to them coming back.
Author rumbleseat Posted March 31, 2014 Author Posted March 31, 2014 As a former OW (repentant, despite the fact that ex-MM was separated when we became involved) I agree that people should respect others' marriages. However, I also see the rationale that many people hold, which is - why should a stranger to the BS be respectful of a WS's marriage when the WS himself/herself is completely disrespecting it? The WS being the person who made the vows, and so on and so forth. So I can see both sides of that one. If I were the BS, I would certainly spend A LOT more time being upset that the WS disrespected the marriage rather than about OW's disrespect, but in my opinion, after reading lots of posts on here, that doesn't always seem to be the case. Honestly... I'm having trouble even understanding why this is debatable. Of course the MM/MW/WS does what they want. Unless the BS and/or kids have WS locked in the cellar and tied up with chains, then he/she is making the decision he/she "wants" to make. My ex-MM went back to his marriage and although he is unhappily married, I hold no delusions that he was forced to do anything. He did it because he "wanted" to. His reasons didn't make him happy in the marriage, but of course it was his decision and his alone. You'd be surprised at how often people think the ws is only staying nc because the bs is forcing them to. That someday, the heroic mm/mw will slay the dragon (figuratively) break free and come running into their arms. It's almost like he or she is rapunzel, placed in the tower by the evil bs. That is the fairy tale. The reality is that the tower is of his or her own making, and they have the love of the om/ow waiting to catch them should they decide to jump. Sometimes they do, but often they don't. All of their own accord.
Hope Shimmers Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 You'd be surprised at how often people think the ws is only staying nc because the bs is forcing them to. That someday, the heroic mm/mw will slay the dragon (figuratively) break free and come running into their arms. It's almost like he or she is rapunzel, placed in the tower by the evil bs. That is the fairy tale. The reality is that the tower is of his or her own making, and they have the love of the om/ow waiting to catch them should they decide to jump. Sometimes they do, but often they don't. All of their own accord. That is an interesting perspective. Honestly, I haven't read much here that would lead me to come to that conclusion except in the rare instance. This seems more about semantics than anything else. And (despite my low post count) I've actually been a member of LS for several years so I've read lots of posts. I don't think the BS can 'force' the WS to do anything, but I also do think that many WS stay in marriages because of reasons other than the fact that they are happier staying in the M than they would be in another situation/relationship/scenario. 1
MissBee Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 (edited) So either, they were always "lyin' cheatin' scum" or M to the BS developed those qualities in them? not sure which of those scenarios would be preferable, myself.... If a OW/OM has not forced the MM/MW to cheat, the BS has not forced them to stay married either. Plain and simple. My point is: all people have the capacity to cheat in relationships, this is human nature and something anyone can potentially do. However, some people choose not to succumb and others do for whatever reasons, often tied to their own inner states combined with external factors, but ultimately it comes back to their own choice. Likewise, for some it may be more of a chronic problem (serial cheaters) and for others an anomaly that came with many intersecting factors. It's like lying, all humans lie; however, for some it is at pathological levels and for others they take greater effort not to lie. My post was responding to Openbook's puzzlement at what the difference is between dating a KNOWN and CURRENT cheater, as in the case of an OW/OM and being already married to someone who later cheats on you. That's the difference, one happens later on usually and one is alerted about the other from jump. I think this is pretty straightforward, although for the sake of one's own views, it will still be mangled into something that vilifies the BS and praises the MM/MW. Edited March 31, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Editorial commentary redacted
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