mm/mw/ ws 's choices

[rumbleseat]

Some recent discussion on here has me thinking.

 

Some om/ow feel that if a married person wants to get involved with them they are fair game, as it's not their responsibility to respect someone else's M.

 

I don't really agree, but that's not what this thread is about.

 

Some om/ow feel that they should receive none of the responsibility for the A,and place it all on mm/mw. After all, he or she is the one who chose to stray, and you can't seduce someone who, at some level isn't open to it.

I agree with the idea that the mp is responsible for their own actions for sure, and they can't blame them on the om/ow.

 

Some of these same people will then paint a picture of a bs who is somehow holding mm/mw "hostage", and the only reason they won't leave is that the bs ( or someone else, even their kids) is pressuring them to stay.

 

How can this be? If a om/ow can't force them to cheat if they don't want to, then surely no bs or anyone else can force them to stay if they don't want to.

 

My opinion is that the mm/mw/ws does what they do because they want to, and unless they are mentally ill, is fully capable of making their own choices and is doing just that.

 

It may be very painful to realize that, be you a bs/ow/om. It's hard to face the fact that someone who claims to love you could hurt you so much.

[MissBee]

It is indeed only logical that if the MP is cheating of his/her own free will and the OW/OM didn't make them do it, them staying married is also of their own free will and their BS isn't "making" them do it. As simple as that really.

[BHsigh]

I believe that the <OW/OM> does need to realize that it is a part of their responsibility as well. The opinion that it is only the WS's fault and that the AP doesn't need to be concerned about them being married shows a huge lack of respect for other people, including BS's and any children that are involved.

 

I personally would never even be friends with anyone that is an unrepentant AP, or a WS for that matter, or an AP or WS that used any such excuse such as "it wasn't my responsibility". I couldn't trust them, and I don't see how anyone ever could.

 

Please note that I said unrepentant for a reason, former/repentant AP's or WS's are not included in the above. If they own up and know that what they did was wrong, then they are ok in my book (though I would never become romantically involved with them, different question there though).

Edited March 29, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Pejorative language/terms redacted.

[janedoe67]

It is called "fear of mirrors" quite simply, they don't WANT to see their part in a family's destruction. Like the WS, they are simply selfish, entitled and lying to themselves.

[FrostBlaze]

Sorry for the off-topic, but i see a lot of these topics and i am not accustomed yet to some of the words, as such i can't participate in some discussions.

Will take the liberty to ask in this topic since you are using most of these words.

What do these mean?

mm/om/mw/ms and whatever other abrevation there is out there.

[rumbleseat]

Bs- betrayed spouse

Ws- wayward spouse

Mm- married man

Mw- married woman

Ow- other women

Om- other man

 

<Complete list here: http://www.loveshack.org/forums/off-topic/water-cooler/228723-loveshack-terminology-guide-acronyms-forum-shorthand>

Edited March 29, 2014 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Added link to thread.

[rumbleseat]

In this day and age, with electronic communication, disposable cell phones, etc., if a ws wants to communicate with their former om or ow, they could find a way. When they don't, some are quick to say that it's only because the bs is " monitoring" them.

 

I' not saying the bs isn't. They probably are. But if a ws really wanted to, they would find a reach out.

[Fluttershy]

It is the same mentality people who had someone a guy when they know there intent is murder but the person feels they did not pull the trigger therefore they are not a murderer. Maybe buy they don't look so innocent from where I sit. Or the law.

 

You also have to realize people will never be convinced out of their special affair logic. Just think of how so many WS simply cannot divorce because of x,y,z but yet can carry on an affair for years. While thousands of people everyday are divorcing. The secret of staying in a horrible marriage? Have an affair. And yet still so many AP believe that divorce is not an option.

 

I guess I believe in people taking responsibility for their actions. If I get in a car with someone who is intoxicated and a person dies because of it. I would feel just as responsible (if not more so) for their death. If I got involved with a MM, his wife discovered the A and went through that terrible betrayal and his family was torn apart in a far bigger way than a regular divorce I would feel guilty for my role in the mess.

[yellowmaverick]

Some of these same people will then paint a picture of a bs who is somehow

holding mm/mw "hostage", and the only reason they won't leave is that the bs ( or someone else, even their kids) is pressuring them to stay.

 

I don't know about you, but I held my WH hostage - by my enchanting wit, smokin' hot body, razor sharp mind and delectable charm. Yep, even though I left him, he wouldn't leave me. The OW did not believe that I had left him until I sent her an email and told her....and copied HIM so she knew I was telling the truth. He just freakin' didn't want her or her "talents" and somehow it was all my fault.

[rumbleseat]

Seems to me that be a person a bs or an ow/om, it's hard to face that the person you love could do treat you that way.

 

After all, you've invested so much time, effort, trust and love in the relationship, only to have it down back in your face. It hurts, and it's hard to accept.

 

It's easier to blame someone else.

 

 

For what it's worth, when d day hits, many bs tell their ws to go and be with the " other" if they love them. The bs who chooses to reconcile faces the paradox of trying to understand what happened. How can someone who claims to love you treat you that way, and if they don't love you, then why are they now fighting so hard for what, only a short time ago, they were willing to risk?

 

My belief is that many ws don't understand it themselves. I don't think there really is an answer.

[rumbleseat]

I don't know about you, but I held my WH hostage - by my enchanting wit, smokin' hot body, razor sharp mind and delectable charm. Yep, even though I left him, he wouldn't leave me. The OW did not believe that I had left him until I sent her an email and told her....and copied HIM so she knew I was telling the truth. He just freakin' didn't want her or her "talents" and somehow it was all my fault.

 

 

:laugh::laugh:

 

Ah come on, admit it. You kept him chained up in the basement, monitored all his incoming and outgoing calls, and you beat him over the head with your rolling pin if he ever got out of line. You even had an ex prison guard follow him to work so he couldn't use the email or phones there to contact her. If he ever got out of line, he'd get a whack with the nightstick.

 

:laugh:

[cocorico]

Some recent discussion on here has me thinking.

 

Some om/ow feel that if a married person wants to get involved with them they are fair game, as it's not their responsibility to respect someone else's M.

 

I'd agree with that view.

 

Some om/ow feel that they should receive none of the responsibility for the A,and place it all on mm/mw. After all, he or she is the one who chose to stray, and you can't seduce someone who, at some level isn't open to it.

I agree with the idea that the mp is responsible for their own actions for sure, and they can't blame them on the om/ow.

 

...and I'd agree with that, too.

 

Some of these same people will then paint a picture of a bs who is somehow holding mm/mw "hostage", and the only reason they won't leave is that the bs ( or someone else, even their kids) is pressuring them to stay.

 

How can this be? If a om/ow can't force them to cheat if they don't want to, then surely no bs or anyone else can force them to stay if they don't want to.

 

I'd agree with that. But that doesn't change how the WS perceives the situation. A WS may appear to be (to someone outside looking in), and may in fact be, perfectly capable of ending an unsatisfactory M and moving on. However, that WS may feel unable to - not because they (necessarily) don't want to, but because they know / assume / expect that the BW / kids / someone else who matters to them would be devastated if that were to happen, and so they feel they cannot allow that to happen. Especially if they're already feeling bad about "cheating".

 

My opinion is that the mm/mw/ws does what they do because they want to.

 

I don't agree with that. I think in most cases, the WS does what they do because they feel that it is he better choice than other available options at the time. "Cheating" may not be what they'd want to do, for example - but it may seem to them like a less damaging choice than breaking up a family simply because they're unhappy. Or, choosing to stay (permanently / until the kids are old enough / until the BS calls time) may not be their first choice option, but it appears to them less destructive than breaking up a family simply because they're unhappy.

[Furious]

Some recent discussion on here has me thinking.

 

Some om/ow feel that if a married person wants to get involved with them they are fair game, as it's not their responsibility to respect someone else's M.

 

I don't really agree, but that's not what this thread is about.

 

Some om/ow feel that they should receive none of the responsibility for the A,and place it all on mm/mw. After all, he or she is the one who chose to stray, and you can't seduce someone who, at some level isn't open to it.

I agree with the idea that the mp is responsible for their own actions for sure, and they can't blame them on the om/ow.

 

Some of these same people will then paint a picture of a bs who is somehow holding mm/mw "hostage", and the only reason they won't leave is that the bs ( or someone else, even their kids) is pressuring them to stay.

 

How can this be? If a om/ow can't force them to cheat if they don't want to, then surely no bs or anyone else can force them to stay if they don't want to.

 

My opinion is that the mm/mw/ws does what they do because they want to, and unless they are mentally ill, is fully capable of making their own choices and is doing just that.

 

It may be very painful to realize that, be you a bs/ow/om. It's hard to face the fact that someone who claims to love you could hurt you so much.

 

 

There isn't a woman who hasn't had plenty of opportunity to become an OW. It's really too easy. Affairs, are common place, unless you live alone in a cave.

 

I can only speak for myself.... but when I've been approached and it was obvious that a married man was interested in me I didn't think...oh, I can't hurt his wife, or how could I deal with accepting any blame if I chose to get involved with him.

.....What I immediately thought and felt was distaste, along with feeling insulted, that this married men assumed I had such low value as to welcome being a side piece.

 

I've never been attracted to weak,cowardly,selfish men. My heart does not feel sympathy for a grown man who claims to be trapped or unhappy. I don't buy what they're selling. Mind you, if I was naive or vulnerable, or lacking in suitable single men, or if I was afraid of true intimacy, or my self esteem was low, then I can see how some women can fall for a married man.

 

For me, the initial reaction, was not about if I hurt or was in part responsible in hurting someone's girlfriend of wife by being the OW, it is more about my self esteem. I assume if I didn't care about myself why should I care about anyone else.

[rumbleseat]

I'd agree with that. But that doesn't change how the WS perceives the situation. A WS may appear to be (to someone outside looking in), and may in fact be, perfectly capable of ending an unsatisfactory M and moving on. However, that WS may feel unable to - not because they (necessarily) don't want to, but because they know / assume / expect that the BW / kids / someone else who matters to them would be devastated if that were to happen, and so they feel they cannot allow that to happen. Especially if they're already feeling bad about "cheating".

 

 

 

I don't agree with that. I think in most cases, the WS does what they do because they feel that it is he better choice than other available options at the time. "Cheating" may not be what they'd want to do, for example - but it may seem to them like a less damaging choice than breaking up a family simply because they're unhappy. Or, choosing to stay (permanently / until the kids are old enough / until the BS calls time) may not be their first choice option, but it appears to them less destructive than breaking up a family simply because they're unhappy.

 

please explain to me how a ws is doing anything other than what they want to do. No one is forcing them. they have made a decision based on what they want to do and what they feel is best.

 

It would be the same if he chose to leave. he would be doing it because it was what he wanted to do.

 

The same is true for contacting the ow/om when an affair ends. If the mp was able to do it before the A, they could do it afterwards too. If it meant that much to them to do so, they would find a way.

 

Unless a ws/mm/mw is somehow unable to look after themselves, there comes a time when both bs and om/ow have to accept that they did everything they did because it was what they wanted to do. It may make it more palatable to blame someone else ( he's only staying because "wifey' is making him, "she only cheated because om seduced her"), but that won't change anything.

Edited March 28, 2014 by rumbleseat

[rumbleseat]

There isn't a woman who hasn't had plenty of opportunity to become an OW. It's really too easy. Affairs, are common place, unless you live alone in a cave.

 

I can only speak for myself.... but when I've been approached and it was obvious that a married man was interested in me I didn't think...oh, I can't hurt his wife, or how could I deal with accepting any blame if I chose to get involved with him.

.....What I immediately thought and felt was distaste, along with feeling insulted, that this married men assumed I had such low value as to welcome being a side piece.

 

I've never been attracted to weak,cowardly,selfish men. My heart does not feel sympathy for a grown man who claims to be trapped or unhappy. I don't buy what they're selling. Mind you, if I was naive or vulnerable, or lacking in suitable single men, or if I was afraid of true intimacy, or my self esteem was low, then I can see how some women can fall for a married man.

 

For me, the initial reaction, was not about if I hurt or was in part responsible in hurting someone's girlfriend of wife by being the OW, it is more about my self esteem. I assume if I didn't care about myself why should I care about anyone else.

 

 

Maybe it's just me, but any mm who has hit on me has always used just about the cheasiet lines ever, like the one who told me he would never cheat on his w, but in my case, he'd make an exception.

 

I admit it was rude, but i laughed in his face. It was so pathetic it was funny.

[cocorico]

please explain to me how a ws is doing anything other than what they want to do. No one is forcing them. they have made a decision based on what they want to do and what they feel is best.

.

 

These two things are not the same. What they want to do may be completely different to what they think is best. For example, they may want to leave the M. However, because of their experiencemr assumptions or fears created by what they've witnessed or read or been told with authority, they worry about the effects of breaking up the family - on their kids, perhaps also on their spouse, or on others they care about. So they don't leave. They try to find ways of making staying tolerable. One of these might be an A. To them, having an A may be the "best choice in the circumstances", even though it is not what they really want to do - which would be, leave the M.

 

Or they're in an A. They want to leave the M - either "for" the AP or because the a has shown them what a satisfying R could be like. But they feel they can't leave the M, possibly for similar reasons to those I suggested above, so they stay to keep the family together. It's not what they want to do, but it is what they feel is best. (Or at least, best "for now".)

 

Nobody is facing anybody to do anything. But their circumstances - and their fears, their prejudices, their assumptions and their experiences - are shaping and constraining their choices. Someone else in similar circumstances may make different choices - but their fears, prejudices, assumptions and experiences will not have been the same, so their spectrum of choice will be different.

[Furious]

It is the same mentality people who had someone a guy when they know there intent is murder but the person feels they did not pull the trigger therefore they are not a murderer. Maybe buy they don't look so innocent from where I sit. Or the law.

 

You also have to realize people will never be convinced out of their special affair logic. Just think of how so many WS simply cannot divorce because of x,y,z but yet can carry on an affair for years. While thousands of people everyday are divorcing. The secret of staying in a horrible marriage? Have an affair. And yet still so many AP believe that divorce is not an option.

 

I guess I believe in people taking responsibility for their actions. If I get in a car with someone who is intoxicated and a person dies because of it. I would feel just as responsible (if not more so) for their death. If I got involved with a MM, his wife discovered the A and went through that terrible betrayal and his family was torn apart in a far bigger way than a regular divorce I would feel guilty for my role in the mess.

 

Excellent post....shows empathy and character. That's what it comes down to.

[MissBee]

I will never understand why BW's chalk up a MM's choice to cheat to their "pathetic and cowardly" character (not to mention the OW's "low self-esteem" in participating) - but their own choice to marry one of those "pathetic/cowardly" creatures was A-OK. It doesn't add up.

 

I think the difference is: did the WS exhibit a pattern of cheating or other cowardly behavior before the BS married them or did this come up post marriage? Some WSs might have exhibited clues that they were the "type" to cheat and others later on cheated as an anomaly and therefore it was nothing a BS could have seen coming.

 

That's the difference.

 

An OW/OM has met someone who is currently married and cheating and this is no big secret or plot twist but something they agree to upfront on day one of the affair, unless lied to. The OW/OM gets an up close snap shot of this person's ability to lead a duplicitous life from day one and still chooses them, whereas most BSs aren't faced with this during dating and courtship. Some are, but many others aren't.

 

I do think some BSs may ignore red flags about their WS that should have clued them in prior to the nuptials, yet still, others had nothing to go on and the cheating came up after yeaaaars of already having a relationship, again, unlike the AP who from day one is meeting someone who is being deceitful upfront and then being so surprised when they realize the person lies, is never leaving or has an OOW. There is also the OW turned wife and then turned BS...in her case people also feel like well you cheated with him while he was married so now that he is cheating on you, you can't pretend to be sooooo surprised he could do it since how your relationship formed was based on him displaying that kind of behavior. In that case yes that particular OW now BS ignored the signs.

 

A BS for all intents and purposes usually marries someone single who hasn't indicated their marriage will be based on bigamy or some such then the WS has a SECRET affair that they HIDE from their spouse and willfully try to cover up. They go out of their way to keep up this facade most times. On the other hand, an OW/OM essentially meets someone who says "I'm currently married but I want to have a secret relationship on the side, are you in?" And the OW/OM willfully agrees to it, unless they were tricked. Hence, people hardly feel that bad for an OW/OM who gets thrown under the bus, because unlike in the case of the BS, they are fully aware of the fact that this person is a cheater and the premise of their relationship is built on hiding them and compartmentalizing.

Edited March 30, 2014 by MissBee

[BHsigh]

I will never believe that anybody is "asking for it" when it comes to infidelity in a M.

 

 

 

No. I don't know why you are twisting my words around.

 

 

 

Again, I never called you those things. I have no idea if you are or not.

 

Again, here is my post:

 

 

 

My point was this - you're shooting yourself in the foot by claiming that the guy YOU married and had children with is "pathetic and cowardly." The fact that you chose to marry what you now describe as "pathetic and cowardly" does not reflect well on you - and I KNOW you have a higher opinion of yourself than that. It's also hypocritical to claim that the OW has "low self-esteem." You both fell for the same guy!!

 

It's just a pointless, counterproductive and counterintuitive argument. What do you gain by name-calling, labeling and castigating? Don't you think the infidelity went a little deeper than that? That's all there is to your WH - pathetic and cowardly? That's all there was to your M? I don't believe that at all.

 

 

 

And what if the WS wasn't "pathetic and cowardly" when the BS chose to marry them, how else would they know that they were if they didn't show any signs prior to the affair?

 

 

Seems to me that the AP would have better insight into that behavior, since they know what the WS is capable of and yet continues the affair.

 

 

(of course I make a disclaimer for the AP's that have no idea that the WS is married, they truly have my sympathy)

[janedoe67]

And what if the WS wasn't "pathetic and cowardly" when the BS chose to marry them, how else would they know that they were if they didn't show any signs prior to the affair?

 

 

Seems to me that the AP would have better insight into that behavior, since they know what the WS is capable of and yet continues the affair.

 

 

(of course I make a disclaimer for the AP's that have no idea that the WS is married, they truly have my sympathy)

 

Really doesn't matter what kind of person the BS s....the BS is accountable for their own character.

 

The OW is responsible for HER choice to be in a relationship with someone who is married, therefore, by every rational and ethical standard, not available. Sorry, no matter what the BS may or may not be, the OW is STILL responsible for choosing to be part of an A. Period.

 

We can shift and distract, and do a neat flaming baton dance of evasion all we want.

 

When someone is involved with a married person (who is married to someone else) they ARE choosing to be part of an A and they ARE choosing to damage a family.

 

Period.

 

Own it.

 

I owned my wayward crap.

 

Just OWN your stuff.

[BHsigh]

Really doesn't matter what kind of person the BS s....the BS is accountable for their own character.

 

The OW is responsible for HER choice to be in a relationship with someone who is married, therefore, by every rational and ethical standard, not available. Sorry, no matter what the BS may or may not be, the OW is STILL responsible for choosing to be part of an A. Period.

 

We can shift and distract, and do a neat flaming baton dance of evasion all we want.

 

When someone is involved with a married person (who is married to someone else) they ARE choosing to be part of an A and they ARE choosing to damage a family.

 

Period.

 

Own it.

 

I owned my wayward crap.

 

Just OWN your stuff.

 

I agree, you are 100% correct.

[JourneyLady]

Keeping in mind of course, that if someone is straying because they have felt there was no other way to deal with an "intolerable" marriage, then they are just as likely to do it again whether they stay in that marriage or move to another one.

 

Lies are generally based on fear. Lying is a force of habit. Those habits don't go away just by dumping one's spouse. The next time the same person feels backed into a corner with an "intolerable" situation, they are just as likely to lie again, and very possibly cheat again if the relationship they are in is not satisfactory.

 

I wouldn't want to be the WS who divorces, gets remarried to AP and then finds the new spouse isn't quite what they thought. If they kept quiet during the 1st marriage, they sure aren't going to want egg on the face for failure of the second. That confrontation will be put off as long as possible, I would imagine.

[Furious]

I will never believe that anybody is "asking for it" when it comes to infidelity in a M.

 

 

 

No. I don't know why you are twisting my words around.

 

 

 

Again, I never called you those things. I have no idea if you are or not.

 

Again, here is my post:

 

 

 

My point was this - you're shooting yourself in the foot by claiming that the guy YOU married and had children with is "pathetic and cowardly." The fact that you chose to marry what you now describe as "pathetic and cowardly" does not reflect well on you - and I KNOW you have a higher opinion of yourself than that. It's also hypocritical to claim that the OW has "low self-esteem." You both fell for the same guy!!

 

It's just a pointless, counterproductive and counterintuitive argument. What do you gain by name-calling, labeling and castigating? Don't you think the infidelity went a little deeper than that? That's all there is to your WH - pathetic and cowardly? That's all there was to your M? I don't believe that at all.

 

 

I can't help but be amused by hyperbole and the mental gymnastics it requires to assume a betrayed spouse is shooting herself in the foot by feeling that her WS was pathetic and cowardly to cheat rather than being honest and forthcoming.

 

I'd bet my last penny the the vast majority of people who marry and have children with their spouse are not psychic and can predict that in x-number of years into the future the person they made a family with, loved and trusted will cheat on them. Especially, when the WS spends great energy on secrecy and deceit to prevent their spouse from the truth.

 

Ironically, an Ow/Om, who knows they're involved with a married person, bypasses the glaring selfishness and cowardice of their mm/mw.

 

People make poor choices, sometimes people change for the better and sometimes they don't.

 

Usually, in hindsight people who really try to change for the better recognize their vulnerabilities and understand how and why they made poor choices that hurt themselves and others.

 

Someone can act selfishly and cowardly but it doesn't mean they will always be that way. It takes a brave soul to admit to the shortcomings and to make positive change toward leading an authentic life that doesn't harm them and the ones they love.

 

I apologize in advance if I've made a spelling error.

Edited March 30, 2014 by Furious

[JourneyLady]

I will never understand why BW's chalk up a MM's choice to cheat to their "pathetic and cowardly" character (not to mention the OW's "low self-esteem" in participating) - but their own choice to marry one of those "pathetic/cowardly" creatures was A-OK. It doesn't add up.

 

Some of us BW's got married super young before we knew how to choose well (or how not to choose badly). In my case, my ex was definitely someone who lied when backed into a corner (and not just with me - he'd done it with work as well). He didn't even hint at desire to leave the marriage and believe me, as crazy as I was at the time and pushing him away, he had plenty of reason. No, he just kept right on "acting the part" of the lover -- right up until Dday.

 

That's not someone very brave.

There were other things I saw him do that were cowardly during the marriage, but I guess I felt if I was always honest with him, he would be so with me. I should have known better I guess -- he lied to other people in front of me and always deflected anything that would have led to confrontation with humor. So I should have known.

 

While I'm dating now, I run from any guy who seems to have a streak of stretching the truth in him. Also from those who try to turn things around on me when confronted with something they've done.

[rumbleseat]

These two things are not the same. What they want to do may be completely different to what they think is best. For example, they may want to leave the M. However, because of their experiencemr assumptions or fears created by what they've witnessed or read or been told with authority, they worry about the effects of breaking up the family - on their kids, perhaps also on their spouse, or on others they care about. So they don't leave. They try to find ways of making staying tolerable. One of these might be an A. To them, having an A may be the "best choice in the circumstances", even though it is not what they really want to do - which would be, leave the M.

 

Or they're in an A. They want to leave the M - either "for" the AP or because the a has shown them what a satisfying R could be like. But they feel they can't leave the M, possibly for similar reasons to those I suggested above, so they stay to keep the family together. It's not what they want to do, but it is what they feel is best. (Or at least, best "for now".)

 

Nobody is facing anybody to do anything. But their circumstances - and their fears, their prejudices, their assumptions and their experiences - are shaping and constraining their choices. Someone else in similar circumstances may make different choices - but their fears, prejudices, assumptions and experiences will not have been the same, so their spectrum of choice will be different.

 

My point in this thread was to show that a mm/mw stays in their marriage because they want to. It's their choice. The bs isn't forcing them to stay. They stay by their own volition. It could be the M from hell, yet they choose to stay. That is on them and no one else. Whatever hold the M has on them, it is stronger than the pull of the om/ow. If it wasn't, they would find a way to leave.

 

 

If they choose to leave, it's the same. They leave because they want to ( or if the bs tells them it's over).

 

It's the same with an om.ow or bs. All stay in the relationship because they choose to. Quibbling over semantics doesn't change anything. It is what it is.