Children and how the **** up your marriage.

[cozycottagelg]

The other question that needs to be asked is where was the compassion and the love from him? When he saw me weeping with tiredness, when he saw me struggling to make everything work, when he saw me get up from dinner, and wash the dishes and then sit down with my child to help her with her maths hw after a long day at work. When he saw the huge circles under my eyes and the sheer look of defeat in my face why why why didn't he want to rush in and fix things for me. I had given up asking him partly because, yes oldshirt, sometimes he didn't do things thoroughly enough or in a timely fashion, but mostly because he got irritable when asked or said he'd do it later (which never happened). I was as nervous of him as the kids were.

 

He rode in on his white charger for his OW so he could be her KISA. Why couldn't he have been my KISA? I surely needed one for many years.

 

Oh my gosh, this!! This this this.

 

My husband would help out here and there, he's getting better, but I can so relate to this.

 

And I still put him first. Always. Whenever I need to make a decision about ANYTHING...one has simple as "what's for dinner" or "am I going to Zumba tonight" or "what are we doing this weekend" he is the first thing I think of. What will husband think and want to do. Always. Every single time. Even now. I always felt like when he had any decision to make, he thought of him first, and that's where it ended, at him.

 

That wears on a person.

[rumbleseat]

Oh my gosh, this!! This this this.

 

My husband would help out here and there, he's getting better, but I can so relate to this.

 

And I still put him first. Always. Whenever I need to make a decision about ANYTHING...one has simple as "what's for dinner" or "am I going to Zumba tonight" or "what are we doing this weekend" he is the first thing I think of. What will husband think and want to do. Always. Every single time. Even now. I always felt like when he had any decision to make, he thought of him first, and that's where it ended, at him.

 

That wears on a person.

 

Maybe there is something more " romantic" about being a KISA to a woman who's problems are less "domestic"?

 

When ow has a bad day, maybe it's more romantic, as he could sweep in and take her out for dinner, etc., but with W, who could use some help with the kids, it's much less romantic.

 

Some men like the act of creating the kids, but don't really realize what the reality of parenthood is.

[cozycottagelg]

Maybe there is something more " romantic" about being a KISA to a woman who's problems are less "domestic"?

 

When ow has a bad day, maybe it's more romantic, as he could sweep in and take her out for dinner, etc., but with W, who could use some help with the kids, it's much less romantic.

 

Some men like the act of creating the kids, but don't really realize what the reality of parenthood is.

 

I definitely agree with this. No infidelity here, but I don't think my husband really knew exactly what he was getting into.

[JamesM]

 

Dr Laura pointed out to her that any new man in her life would also want sex, attention and appreciation.

 

And she pointed out to the guy that any woman he took up with would also want children of her own if she were childless or want help raising the ones she had if did already have kids.

 

So in other words they would be right back to square one with other people and nothing would fundamentally change. They would just have the additional stress and conflict of being in blended families.

 

So why each give more of what the other wants and remain an intact family?

 

Upon that sinking in I realized if I found someone else, I'd still have to be a good husband and father. And I think my wife saw the light that no other man would ever want to help her raise her kids without being sexual.

 

We each had to give a little, so we might as well give to each other.

 

Bingo.

 

This has kept me from an affair as much as anything. Why start something with another woman knowing that I will be back where I was? At my age, we wouldn't have more children, but I would still have mine. She would have hers. And we would both (probably) have former spouses.

 

Why oh why would I want double the trouble?

 

The other question that needs to be asked is where was the compassion and the love from him?

 

He rode in on his white charger for his OW so he could be her KISA. Why couldn't he have been my KISA? I surely needed one for many years.

 

Easy to answer...at least from a husband who has had similar "requests" (usually demands) from an overworked wife...and also felt like she did not care about me...here is one perspective...

 

My response: "Why should I help you have an easier life if you won't take the time to care for me? Is there any guarantee that you will then take time for me?"

 

Hear the selfishness? Yes, so do I. However, before you jump on him (or me), think of how your requests appear. They are also selfish because it is about you having an easier life...at least from his perspective. Is he right? Maybe. Are you right? Probably. The point is....children demand time especially when they are young. And during that time, both parents need to be very very giving.

 

I know. I have been there, and honestly, we are still there at times but much less so.

 

It is a Catch 22. Each person needs to step outside of the situation and see how much the other needs something (either help or companionship) and then the other needs to step back from him or herself and reciprocate. Problem is...both are caught up in their own problems and cannot see how the other has just as great of needs.

 

I can't say I ever learned to do what I suggested should be done, because even to this day, when I did help her, I never felt that she did the same for me.

 

But that still doesn't matter. I learned to do it for them.

 

Both do need to set aside their own feelings and be parents. Yes, the marriage is very important, but it does at times need to be set aside for the children especially when they are young. But the feeling that "this too shall pass" has to be there comforting both with the knowledge that the other will remain faithful until alone time can be had.

 

Yes, he did wrong. Yes, you did wrong. But in reality, I will say he should have been much more of a parent than he was, and then much of this would never have happened IMO.

 

Why her and not you? In his mind, she was fresh and exciting and showing compassion and caring for him. Honestly? He was completely selfish and loving the attention. He didn't really care about her. Had he lost love for you? Probably not. He was just too angry to see beyond himself. And because of that, he screwed up the rest of his life.

[waterwoman]

Maybe there is something more " romantic" about being a KISA to a woman who's problems are less "domestic"?

 

When ow has a bad day, maybe it's more romantic, as he could sweep in and take her out for dinner, etc., but with W, who could use some help with the kids, it's much less romantic.

 

.

 

Probably. He thought she was really opening up to him when she showed him the blades she used to self-harm and her scars. When he told me this (before I knew they were in an EA) I told him he needed to tell someone who could help her professionally but he said that he couldn't do that as it was secret. [hmm]

 

About a month before this I had reached my lowest point - I had stood on the motoway bridge one wet sunday afternoon and wanted to throw myself off. I stood there for about 20 minutes arguing with myself. I came home and said not a word because by this point I was convinced he would have just scoffed or told me I should have done it. Not dramatic or even that interesting. When I told him this 6 months later he said I was selfish to even contemplate it. Which was true but some understanding of the place I had been in would have been nice.

 

If I had felt for one single moment over the 3 or so years leading up to the affair that he would ever swoop in and rescue me I would have felt safe enough to be the wife and lover he wanted. I still resent him for letting me down and then finding someone else to rescue.

[JamesM]

 

Some men like the act of creating the kids, but don't really realize what the reality of parenthood is.

 

I kinda agree. But I can take it one step farther.

 

I really didn't want kids. Sure...one day when I was "older" whenever that would be, but not now. I wanted to live the single married life (as my boss called it). I loved how we could do what we wanted or I could do what I wanted whenever we wanted.

 

Honestly, she wasn't sure either...yet inside of her, she did.

 

So, knowing that I would come to accept the idea, we went off bc and soon we were pregnant.

 

It was a rough time to say the least. And when baby number one came, it was very rough. he was colicky and slept little. His naps were a half hour long and he slept a couple of hours at a time during the night. As he got older, it didn't get better, and then #2 came along.

 

Suddenly, I was faced with the reality (or so I thought it was) that I would NEVER be able to do what I wanted when I wanted.

 

Looking back, I can see that the "never" didn't last as long as I thought. Now that all (four...yes, two more came along rather rapidly and life was even more stressful for awhile) of the children are older and most in their teens, we can both do more of what we want to do when we want to. One of them can babysit and we can get out.

 

Now though, we don't always want to.

 

Thinking back, if I had screwed it up with an affair or she did, then these days would never have been here.

 

So, yes, some men want to be fathers and not actually be a parent, but I contend that many men don't want children at all, and resent them for what they did to the marriage. Harsh but true.

[cozycottagelg]

I think we can all agree, it takes a village. Not just two villagers to raise a child.

 

When my daughter (our first) was born, I had so much help from my mother. Thank God for her. Our daughter was colic-y and tensions were HIGH. My husband admitted he hated the drive home from work because he knew she'd be crying and I'd be at the end of my rope. But my mother would swoop in like a hero, our KISA, and take her for a bit so we could sleep and relax.

 

I really believe it takes a village. I think it's so important for women to make friends with other moms. Like not surface friendships, real genuine friendships. If you have nobody to ask for help, that is a scary place to be!

[waterwoman]

james - maybe I should have asked directly. I stopped doing that after so many years and just got on with it. But I am prepared to admit I was probably very resentful (silently - which is the worst kind)

 

I guess I hoped he would just see how I was struggling.

 

Communication, communication, communication.....

 

Problems is I still get bursts of anger about all this. And I don't feel there is any space for me to let them out.

[rumbleseat]

Maybe part of the blame lies with some of the cultural myths about parenthood.

 

many times you see a tv show where there's a h and a w who are parents of small kids and they both look perfect. The house is spotless, both mom and dad are immaculately dressed, hair perfectly coiffed, the mother seems to spring out of bed, makeup on. No matter how rushed, dad always has time to make mom a cup of coffee, and he arrives at the office early, bright eyed and ready to work with a smile on his face happy banter with his office mates. If momWorks outside the home, she is always perfectly dressed and never looks tired. If she stays at home,the house is spotless and she has time every day to run 20km and volunteer, junior in tow, at the PTA for her older child's school. The babysitter is on speed dial and they can go out for a romantic dinner in formal attire at the drop of a hat. They come home to find two week old junior in bed and sleeping through the nigh, his older sibling also sleeping soundly. The parents in that situation are usually shown as being perky with a happy personality and are never snappy at one another or anyone else. Their sex life is so amazing that porn starts bow their head in reverence whenever they walk by and even rabbits are jealous.

 

Then there is the other extreme. Mom is shown as overworked, with her hair looking like a rat's nest and her clothes are a wreck. Her make up, if any, is smeared and she's exhausted, nagging and a real b@tch. Dad comes home, plunks his rear down in the easy chair and grunts his orders for the evening. Dinner is a burnt offering and the go to bed in sudden silence ( except maybe for the sound of a toilet flushing heard from somewhere offscreen, and junior, who cries and screams at the top of his lungs). They go to bed, and then the jokes and innuendoes about lack of sex begin.i won't go into them here, but let's just say that the terms " ice" and " horndog" are involved.

 

Neither of these is accurate, with the truth lying someone in the middle.

The problem is that,until you become a parent, there can be really false expectation of what it will be like. Not much can prepare you for it, and you don't really know how you'll feel until it happens. It's not like babysitting or caring for younger siblings. It's a 24/7 job, and even when the parents are working outside of the home, it's still their top priority.

 

There's also a certain amount of guilt attached to a mom or dad saying they feel overwhelmed, that they aren't happy, that they need help. You can feel like you are letting your kids down, like you're a bad parent, etc. when the reality is that you're feeling the way many parents feel sometimes.

 

I sometimes wonder if sometimes that sense of guilt can be expressed by a mom or dad having an A . They feel so down on themselves that they escape by cheating, which makes them feel even more guilt.

[rumbleseat]

I think we can all agree, it takes a village. Not just two villagers to raise a child.

 

When my daughter (our first) was born, I had so much help from my mother. Thank God for her. Our daughter was colic-y and tensions were HIGH. My husband admitted he hated the drive home from work because he knew she'd be crying and I'd be at the end of my rope. But my mother would swoop in like a hero, our KISA, and take her for a bit so we could sleep and relax.

 

I really believe it takes a village. I think it's so important for women to make friends with other moms. Like not surface friendships, real genuine friendships. If you have nobody to ask for help, that is a scary place to be!

 

 

That makes a lot of sense. Many families, at least were I am from, live no where near their extended families, so that extra support system isn't there.

[Copelandsanity]

That makes a lot of sense. Many families, at least were I am from, live no where near their extended families, so that extra support system isn't there.

 

I come from a family where it's expected that a grandparent will help take of the kids, full-time if necessary. My grandmother took care of me, my sister, and both my cousins full-time, probably over a decade's worth with zero objection or complaint. I won't do that to my mom, but she is prepared for it. If I ever have grandkids - gotta have a kid first lol - I expect that I would do the same for them, barring death or ill health. That's the situation with most of the toddlers currently in my family; both parents work while the grandparent(s) take care of the kid(s).

[atreides]

 

I'll be honest with you I have really struggled making sense of H's behaviour. I could not see how an intelligent, loving, generous man could morph into this creature. I thought that he must see how unfair he was being.

 

I am just wondering whether anyone thinks a man's childhood experiences if being fathered impact on how well they do?

 

 

I would separate "H not wanting to help with children" and "H decided to cheat" Most of us get stressed and there are understood responsibilities that come with children. We all know them but some of us don't care and pass the buck. However, not all of us, rather most of us don't cheat, that is it's own island and does not merit your time to make sense of.

 

To everyone:

 

What I see with this thread is a common theme sadly with H/fathers who are not "appreciative" or demand more of you and then IMO falsely link that to the reason infidelity occurs.

 

I am sure my wife could unload how I don't appreciate her and such even though we split the duties. I think that is just a trait we all have, us fathers too when so much rides on our shoulders and looks like the H's too whom complained about time not with the wives.

 

I will say though I just don't know how long many of you could have kept going if your H's did nothing with the kids. I mean argue, scream at them, surly the message would get understood that you need help or simple thank you.

 

My question is, do many of you work and then raise the kids or are a stay at home mom? I would say stay at home moms by the dynamics should take more of the share load, but not all. Both my wife and I work full time and thus split the load. For example, i have the night duties because my wife works very far from home, so that means homework, after school activities like swimming and etc, bathing, brushing teeth and into pajamas. She does dinner and dishes. In the morning, I help part of the week to wake them up and get dressed when her schedule is too much but she does the same for me if I cannot be home for my duties.

 

So another question i have is what exactly were your H's doing while you were doing all the load? It would be impossible for me to just sit and watch tv while the kids going crazy and my wife chasing them to get everything done. I don't know, it would just make sense to me that my wife would be totally drained when it came time after the kids are in bed for "our time." So what were your H's doing and how did they approach you when they wanted "our time?"

 

 

 

The other question that needs to be asked is where was the compassion and the love from him? When he saw me weeping with tiredness, when he saw me struggling to make everything work, when he saw me get up from dinner, and wash the dishes and then sit down with my child to help her with her maths hw after a long day at work. When he saw the huge circles under my eyes and the sheer look of defeat in my face why why why didn't he want to rush in and fix things for me. I had given up asking him partly because, yes oldshirt, sometimes he didn't do things thoroughly enough or in a timely fashion, but mostly because he got irritable when asked or said he'd do it later (which never happened). I was as nervous of him as the kids were.

 

He rode in on his white charger for his OW so he could be her KISA. Why couldn't he have been my KISA? I surely needed one for many years.

 

My father was an addict for most of my childhood, it required at times me chasing him down the street asking him to come back home, or riding my bike to the pub he was at. My mom was so furious with him and broken that looking back I am surprised she asked me to go get him. My parents argued almost every night that i can remember as a young child and into my teenage years but my father had a heart attack and that broke his addiction the first time, he then went back and then got help to kick it. He also was not there for the early part of my childhood as much as his work demand a lot but he did make an effort and was there more so as i got older.

 

So the question was, does this affect us as fathers.... it affects me in what I don't want to be and be better than.

[tired girl]

He rode in on his white charger for his OW so he could be her KISA. Why couldn't he have been my KISA? I surely needed one for many years.

 

This. Except for the fact that I wouldn't let my husband be my KISA and that is why he was for other women.

 

What you have to say oldshirt makes so much sense. The parts about how men give and receive love really resonates with me.

 

I can say that we tried really hard to not have a child centered marriage, we co-parented pretty well. We just went our separate ways throughout the whole time they were growing up. Once they became teenagers we started realizing that there were problems and that was when everything really blew up.

[waterwoman]

This. Except for the fact that I wouldn't let my husband be my KISA and that is why he was for other women.

.

 

Maybe I did that too simply by doing it all he felt I didn't need him. I did though. But we both failed to communicate.

[tired girl]

That is pretty much what I did. And we are really working on communicating now. It is not as easy as it would seem lol.

[jnel921]

Maybe I did that too simply by doing it all he felt I didn't need him. I did though. But we both failed to communicate.

 

WW I hope your H is now more involved and helps more with the kids. It's not enough to be the disciplinarian. You need to show your kids that you are a united front.

 

This feeling that you H was the OWs KISA doesn't match up to your lives. He had to pay attention to this woman to get what he wanted.which was all about him. Had nothing to do with you or your kids.

 

Sometimes people make bad choices. But you kids have nothing to do with it. But the blame falls on him. He could have worked out any issues at home with you that he needed to. If he didn't feel needed, all he had to do was ask.

 

He had no issue asking for strange tail. Sleeping with another woman will not help you with the HW schedules or getting the kids to bed on time.

 

You guys are doing better now so put things into the correct perspective and don't mix them up. You will need these tools in order to recognize the behaviors if it ever happens again. But let's hope not....ok.

 

Good Luck to you...

[xxoo]

I've been lucky enough to have a husband who is a very involved father, as well as having a father who was very involved with us as kids, from babies forward. What I've learned from these men is that men should put their children first. The "marriage first" attitude sets up a competition for attention between the children and the husband, and it's neither healthy nor attractive.

 

If the husband, the father, puts the children first, he meets the mother's need to see her children cared for. He endears herself to her. And, he frees up his wife to put HIM first.

 

If you want your wife to put you first, you put the kids first. SOMEONE has to put the kids first, and if isn't you, then it will be her. As a wife, I really don't mind that he put the kids first. I love it! It's incredibly attractive paternal behavior in my eyes! Makes me want to jump him!

[waterwoman]

Thanks everyone. This has been interesting and a bit depressing.

 

Never realised that men could be quite so self-centred. Even regarding their own flesh and blood.

 

But hey, at least I know. If I get another life I will either:

 

1. Not have babies.

2. Have babies from sperm donation so I don't need to have a man around.

3. Have no serious relationships with men, just short-term liaisons with NSA.

 

Last thing I need is a baby AND an even more infantile man-child

[atreides]

I've been lucky enough to have a husband who is a very involved father, as well as having a father who was very involved with us as kids, from babies forward.

 

Lucky as in "blessed/fortunate/gratitude" or lucky as in to say the numbers are not in your favor?

 

If the latter, i would think is as BIAS as much of this threads opinion of men and "self-contentedness" as some put it. Maybe i live in an odd world in the family,friends, acquaintances and such that I see just as many women run out on their kids and leave the father with all the cards. My best friend being the latest example, that said I think we should change "men" to why do some "people" act as such. I mean to counter the male claims, there are just as much female infidelity that seem to me just as manipulative, selfish and down right mean from the stories i could share that i have witnessed in my life.

 

I guess much of what I read like using words as "some one has to put the kids first" is part of the problem. There should not be a ranking order, my kids needs are as important as my wife's needs. The added EQUAL responsibility to all parties is certainly stressful but perhaps that is the ROOT problem ideologically, the argument is based or founded already on that concept of children first and not equal.

 

For example

The "marriage first" attitude sets up a competition for attention between the children and the husband, and it's neither healthy nor attractive.

is the exact inverse of "kids first" in other words a contradiction to invalidate one argument of "ranking" for a different "ranking." Then to say it sets up a competition.. when one is already formed by the inverse argument.

 

In reality it is hard to be truly "EQUAL" but i try darn hard. I refuse to have a set foundation default ranking or pecking order where I would say for most females here by observation is easier to form on "children first" I guess the built in maternal instincts.

As for me, some days for example, when the children's needs are outright insane as with extra school homework or tests, i may fall off on my duties as an H, but i make a mental note and my wife loves the surprise coconut ice cream that may show up in the freezer the next day.

 

I have also seen fathers put "kids first" in my own circles, he does everything with his son and the wife wants to go on vacation... just the 2 of them but he won't leave the son. Ironically there is a story here on LS where a wife complains of the same thing and if i recall has cheated because of it.... so I don't think it's "attractive" for either gender to have any kind of "first."

Edited March 16, 2014 by atreides

[xxoo]

Lucky as in "blessed/fortunate/gratitude" or lucky as in to say the numbers are not in your favor?

 

I meant the former. I feel blessed and grateful to have had a father like that, and to have a husband who is a father like that. Probably having a father like that helped me choose a father like that for my children.

 

I guess much of what I read like using words as "some one has to put the kids first" is part of the problem. There should not be a ranking order, my kids needs are as important as my wife's needs. The added EQUAL responsibility to all parties is certainly stressful but perhaps that is the ROOT problem ideologically, the argument is based or founded already on that concept of children first and not equal.

 

I mean that someone has to put the kids first.

 

No one's wants should come before another's needs. But in ranking needs, the kids come first. They have more of them, and they (small kids) can not meet them on their own. They are completely dependent on their caretakers.

 

I can not be a good wife if my children's needs are not met first. That's an insight into the mind of one mother. When my husband works at my side to meet the children's needs first, then I am inspired to, and able to, shower him with my gratitude and attention. If he competed with the children for my attention, he'd lose. We'd all lose.

[waterwoman]

I can not be a good wife if my children's needs are not met first.

 

Yes. And I struggle to be a good wife if I am the only one meeting them.

[Fluttershy]

I really have never thought it as "putting their needs first". I meet the needs by what comes up and needs attention. Obviously when my children were small they had more immediate needs. But babies don't need to be held 24/7. Children don't need to be busy and attention 24/7. And money should never come first. Downsizing can help. But I had it easier. My h never resented anything and was always right there with me. And when I was exhuasted as a new mom he picked up all te slack around the house even though I was on mat leave.

[Canucklehead]

I don't think that this is true. I think to the extent that it is, there should be a LOT more vasectomies, and many fewer fathers. But when I suggest that, a lot of men seem to get up in arms and profess how much they personally want children and that people are odd to not want children. So I have to think that a lot of men actually do want children and fatherhood on their list of life dreams.

 

It is easy to say you want kids but, it is another thing to be a great father.

 

Personally, I think Oldshirts comments are what I observe as well. Majority of guys stumble along in parenting and just do the best they can.

 

Funny thing, of all my buddies the three that seem to be handling fatherhood the best had pregnant GFs with the "shotgun wedding" LOL

 

Ya never know how things will work out

[atreides]

I meant the former. I feel blessed and grateful to have had a father like that, and to have a husband who is a father like that. Probably having a father like that helped me choose a father like that for my children.

 

 

 

I mean that someone has to put the kids first.

 

No one's wants should come before another's needs. But in ranking needs, the kids come first. They have more of them, and they (small kids) can not meet them on their own. They are completely dependent on their caretakers.

 

I can not be a good wife if my children's needs are not met first. That's an insight into the mind of one mother. When my husband works at my side to meet the children's needs first, then I am inspired to, and able to, shower him with my gratitude and attention. If he competed with the children for my attention, he'd lose. We'd all lose.

 

I guess, that is in part an ideological difference between people.. i mean that as in both women and men whom both have perspectives on this. You have IMO set up a condition to the M by making a rank system if you will. In other words your H will never get to Y if X is not met. When i approach my wife and kids needs, IMO i meet them all the best i can and my wife does the same. She many times more than not likes to have "our time" and will push for it.

 

It sounds like though for this thread that there are H's that just do nothing, but that is why i asked some posts before, what are these Hs doing while the the W/Mother is doing all the load? I mean if i let up on responsibilities, and vise-versa via my wife to do so, there would be hell to pay.

 

On the flip side, if i don't show my wife attention or have ranking per say, her attitude could affect the relationship for that day/moment in time with the kids, i have seen it with many other couples and is why i use it as example. But with your statement it seems the condition must be met, and then and only then can you be a wife... if i understood correctly.

 

It i guess IMO it is sad to see a victor and loser in the scenario you described, to each their own though, BUT perhaps this is a root philosophical problem among people that begin to setup the context and situation complained about in this thread.

[atreides]

Yes. And I struggle to be a good wife if I am the only one meeting them.

 

This i understand, your H is not doing anything....

 

I am arguing the principle, that i take issue with some of the "rank" or "lose" vs "win" that setups a bias condition. It is in the end contradictory the way i see it to the first argument.