Sexless marriage

[dreamingoftigers]

Take your wife out and tell her when you are alone. Not with the whole family around.

 

You have let her make all your decisions for decades, and in return, you don't even get to have sex.

 

Get out of there. Make this one decision.

 

You say she would show up on your door step? Really? She can't even make it down the hall to sleep with you in 10 years.

 

LOVE THIS.

 

My husband used to say similar things about leaving me (he was in active addiction at the time).

I would "stalk him" or "do something really crazy."

 

What happened?

I ended up kicking him out.

He lived at Occupy Edmonton for a bit then got help.

LOL I sure wasn't going to follow him to Occupy Edmonton in -20C.

Nooooo thank you.

 

Often conflict-avoidant fears are much bigger than the reality actually is.

The real situation is probably that her emotional reaction FEELS that scary to OP.

But it's just like any other fear, bigger until to get right up close and face it.

In fact, I believe that's why they say to "face your fears." Because when to actually look at them dead-on you can put them into perspective and often they are much smaller and easier to deal with once you see them for what they are.

 

But it takes internal fortitude and committment to ones goals to face fear.

If OP doesn't have the committment to look his wife in the eye and say "it's been too long and you won't fix this with me." How in the world will he ever face divorcing her?

 

Is he just going to wait until she divorces him?

Ugh.

Again, self-respect needs to come calling.

[Robert Z]

When you left, did you leave a note when she was not around and just get your clothes and drive off? My wife is always at the house, except on afternoon each week when she goes to the grocery store. That would really be my only time to escape. I thought of leaving very early on any morning, but I have a lot of clothes to get out of the house and her bedroom is halfway between the carport door and my bedroom. She would catch me leaving and cause a ruckus, along with her mother, who ALWAYS agrees with her.

 

 

 

No, we talked and I told her that I was miserable; that I had been miserable for a long time and I needed this to end. I told her that I only have so many good years left and I need a chance to be happy. At that point she ran outside and started to vomit. I moved into a different part of the house so that we didn't have to see each other as much. Over the next couple of weeks we continued to talk and eventually she too admitted that our marriage was a joke. She agreed to move out while I wound things down and finished out my work contract.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Robert Z

[SnapCracklePop]

Hey guys, the names and insults are not going to help his situation. Just remember that many of us were at the decision point at one time and it can be quite a time of second guessing and flip flopping. He's been married for 28 years, and making this decision is a HUGE change.

 

I do agree though that this has taken you (niceface) way too long. You are overdue. You and your wife have not been demonstrating what a healthy marriage is to your kids. You do need to be stronger for yourself, and stand up for what you believe is your right to a happy and healthy lifestyle. You certainly have given a good effort. Nobody can push a rope though.

 

I did a little digging, and yes under VA law you must life separate and apart - no cohabitation - to be considered separated. However, you have no more minor children, so you are able to file for divorce after 6 months of that.

 

VA is an equitable division state. If you two cannot agree upon how to divide your assets, the court will divide it for you in an equitable fashion. This does not always mean equal - it means what is fair and there are a number of factors taken into consideration.

 

All I can say is that I once had to make the difficult decision as well. And after the split, I second guessed myself. I second guessed myself before the split. But hindsight being 20/20 - I made the right decision even despite the support payments I am still paying today. I am happier. I am healthier. I am living a good life. My kids were upset at first (they are much younger than yours), but they are very well adjusted now.

 

Your kids will do better as they are older and understand life better. They are not going to high five you in support, and they will be sad. But they won't abandon you (or her), and they will still love you.

 

You have been given a few pushes here to get you moving in the right direction. What I would suggest is retaining a lawyer (google them and make sure they are fair lawyers and do not favour husband or wife in a separation)... and finding yourself a small 1BR furnished apartment - OR if you have a supportive friend that will rent you a basement room for a while, do that.

 

Make notes on EVERYTHING though... your move day, your conversations... keep emails (if any)... take notes on your counselling, and her denial of counselling. Keep receipts.. build your case so you don't get screwed in the decision of "what is equitable".

 

Renting a place will make you more decisive and motivated. You really do need to get moving on this situation of yours. Forget about the "gang-ups" - there are only 2 people in your marriage.

 

You will need a separation agreement. Do not sign a single thing unless you have your lawyer review it and make sure that your interests are protected.

 

As for support payments, your children are all adults so no problem there. Spousal support in VA is changing with the times. Lots of factors come into play and there is no single rule book here... in fact support payments are not a right, not a punishment to one spouse. Decisions are made on the needs of the spouses. I do believe that most courts agree that everyone has an obligation to be self sufficient - so one spouse may have to pay support, but it is generally not indefinitely.

 

You have a lot of advice here, and some motivating pushes to get you on your feet. Take it or leave it - its up to you. But nothing changes until something changes and it looks like you are going to have to be the leader here.

[niceface]

Hey guys, the names and insults are not going to help his situation. Just remember that many of us were at the decision point at one time and it can be quite a time of second guessing and flip flopping. He's been married for 28 years, and making this decision is a HUGE change.

 

I do agree though that this has taken you (niceface) way too long. You are overdue. You and your wife have not been demonstrating what a healthy marriage is to your kids. You do need to be stronger for yourself, and stand up for what you believe is your right to a happy and healthy lifestyle. You certainly have given a good effort. Nobody can push a rope though.

 

I did a little digging, and yes under VA law you must life separate and apart - no cohabitation - to be considered separated. However, you have no more minor children, so you are able to file for divorce after 6 months of that.

 

VA is an equitable division state. If you two cannot agree upon how to divide your assets, the court will divide it for you in an equitable fashion. This does not always mean equal - it means what is fair and there are a number of factors taken into consideration.

 

All I can say is that I once had to make the difficult decision as well. And after the split, I second guessed myself. I second guessed myself before the split. But hindsight being 20/20 - I made the right decision even despite the support payments I am still paying today. I am happier. I am healthier. I am living a good life. My kids were upset at first (they are much younger than yours), but they are very well adjusted now.

 

Your kids will do better as they are older and understand life better. They are not going to high five you in support, and they will be sad. But they won't abandon you (or her), and they will still love you.

 

You have been given a few pushes here to get you moving in the right direction. What I would suggest is retaining a lawyer (google them and make sure they are fair lawyers and do not favour husband or wife in a separation)... and finding yourself a small 1BR furnished apartment - OR if you have a supportive friend that will rent you a basement room for a while, do that.

 

Make notes on EVERYTHING though... your move day, your conversations... keep emails (if any)... take notes on your counselling, and her denial of counselling. Keep receipts.. build your case so you don't get screwed in the decision of "what is equitable".

 

Renting a place will make you more decisive and motivated. You really do need to get moving on this situation of yours. Forget about the "gang-ups" - there are only 2 people in your marriage.

 

You will need a separation agreement. Do not sign a single thing unless you have your lawyer review it and make sure that your interests are protected.

 

As for support payments, your children are all adults so no problem there. Spousal support in VA is changing with the times. Lots of factors come into play and there is no single rule book here... in fact support payments are not a right, not a punishment to one spouse. Decisions are made on the needs of the spouses. I do believe that most courts agree that everyone has an obligation to be self sufficient - so one spouse may have to pay support, but it is generally not indefinitely.

 

You have a lot of advice here, and some motivating pushes to get you on your feet. Take it or leave it - its up to you. But nothing changes until something changes and it looks like you are going to have to be the leader here.

 

Thanks for the calm post. You are partially right about the 6 months. Even if the kids are all over 18, she can still contest the divorce by simply refusing to sign the separation paperwork and if she does not, the six month period becomes 1 year to wait. Contested divorces are also expensive and I am not crazy about making some greedy lawyer richer. Very likely she will contest it. Only Penn. is a worse state to divorce in than VA, where you have to wait 2 years. Also, if she doe not work, the man is screwed, because that is what they go by to determine support. Outside of some pet sitting, she has never worked. The only bright spot is that my mortgage is paid off on a $410,000 home. I will be leaving quite bit also when I do. Most of the apts near me require a year lease. The very few that do not, are either more expensive, or they are dumps.

 

I am taking my time on this so I do not get screwed over.

[dreamingoftigers]

Hi niceface,

 

Thanks for coming back.

I wasnt expecting the thread to degenerate quite so badly.

 

What steps have you made THIS WEEK to start the process?

[Johnson1]

We have been married for 28 years. In December of 1999 my wife's mother decided to move in with us when her own husband went to a nursing home with Alzheimers. My wife moved down the hall and has slept in the same room with her mother since 1999. They are very close to each other, because her mother took care of her when she was sick for many years before I met her. She is a Bible thumping fundamentalist. Once every 6 weeks or so she would come at night for sex to my bedroom. Then in January of 2005 it stopped all together. Instead of a husband, I feel like I was demoted to a 'brother' who brings home the paycheck and helps out around the house. She is a stay at home wife. My 3 kids are in their 20s now, but still live at home. I asked her to go to counseling with me years ago, but she refused, so I went on my own. Over the years I have been to not 1 but 5 different counselors. 4 concluded divorce and 1 (a church service) was on the fence about it. My own mother has urged me to leave her for years now. I just have not had the courage to up and leave. I know under Virginia law I would be paying her alimony for sure, since she does not draw a paycheck. She is otherwise a good person and all of her adult friends think that she is Gods gift to heaven. But none of them know what is happening behind closed doors. Her mother is very meek and walks in lockstep with whatever she says or does. My house is all paid for (no mortgage) and I would be leaving quite a bit if I left out, which makes it hard to leave, as I have put so much into the place over the last 20 years.

Comments/advice welcome here.

 

Wow, your situation is eerily similar to mine. My wife (whom I'm now separated from) is also a religious fanatic who has/had everyone convinced she's an angel. The way she treated me in front of family WAS NOT the way she treated me when we got home. I know EXACTLY what you mean. I stayed with her waaay longer than I should've and wasted many good sexual years on a woman who didnt want me. Don't let that happen to you! Believe me, there's no worse feeling in the world then knowing you denied yourself the pleasure of a normal sexual relationship because you were unable to find the confidence within yourself to seek your hearts desire. Remember my friend, you only live once. Progress is never made without taking a risk. I'm counting on the fact that I'll be better off in the long run. I have relatives who've been down the same road tell me the same thing.

 

Co-dependency sux, and strips you of all self worth.

[Tiberius]

What would divorce bring you? Would you be in a position where you can date again? If you are realistic, how do you rate your marketability? If the relationship is fine otherwise, get a fling on the side or look up, erhm, professional help. Why should you have to choose between living separated from your children in poverty and sex?

[stillafool]

In Virginia, I would have to move out of the house and separate. A lawyer here told me that her sleeping down the hall from me is not considered separation time in Virginia. She will not like me moving out and will definitely contest the divorce. It will be on me to come up with my own money to live on. My house is paid for and the kids are over 18, so those would not be issues. I have just waited for the holidays to be over here.

 

She doesn't like this and she doesn't like that. Well to hell with her! Why doesn't she offer to have sex with you if she wants to keep her marriage in tact. She sounds completely selfish. How could she feel it is right to move out of the bedroom with her husband and down the hall with her mother. WTF! Who cares what she likes, tell her like it is! Flat out tell her you want a divorce because you are a healthy man and you want a sexual relationship.

[lollipopspot]

Why should you have to choose between living separated from your children

 

The children are adults.

[niceface]

Just remember: I post scarier than your wife guilts. And I don't need a bible to back me up.

 

If you don't stand up for yourself. I will type in ALL CAPS. ALL CAPS!

 

I'm kidding.

 

But really, is it shouting, tears, anger, guilt-trip?

 

What is it that triggers you to back down from wanting a basic need met?

 

It's tears.

[niceface]

So now the pu--y pulls the "Thank you for your service" card - to attempt to make us feel bad. Oh, dear. Don't we feel like crap now for stating our positions? Yas

 

Can I ask, what is that stuff on your hair??

[niceface]

Just remember: I post scarier than your wife guilts. And I don't need a bible to back me up.

 

If you don't stand up for yourself. I will type in ALL CAPS. ALL CAPS!

 

I'm kidding.

 

But really, is it shouting, tears, anger, guilt-trip?

 

What is it that triggers you to back down from wanting a basic need met?

 

It's tears. But she keeps saying it is because of her physical condition with her ear. I know it sounds like a BIG LAUGH on a forum like this, but she has been dead serious about her problem. I've hung on for years now at least trying to sympathize with her, but something is still not adding up for me.

I love her meals, and the 8 acre lot I live on and have busted my hump on for the last 20 years, and it is just more convenient to see what my kids are up to. That is what has held me back from leaving. Just no bedroom. My c--K is complaining, but not the rest of me.

(Now there will be a dozen more 'GET OUT' replies here.)

[Yasuandio]

Can I ask, what is that stuff on your hair??

 

It's Very thin tin foil. Yas

[Steen719]

It's tears. But she keeps saying it is because of her physical condition with her ear. I know it sounds like a BIG LAUGH on a forum like this, but she has been dead serious about her problem. I've hung on for years now at least trying to sympathize with her, but something is still not adding up for me.

I love her meals, and the 8 acre lot I live on and have busted my hump on for the last 20 years, and it is just more convenient to see what my kids are up to. That is what has held me back from leaving. Just no bedroom. My c--K is complaining, but not the rest of me.

(Now there will be a dozen more 'GET OUT' replies here.)

 

If someone has asked this question already, I'm sorry.

 

If she won't have sex with you, will she consider you having sex with others while still married to her? I mean, really, how can she expect that you would never have sex again? If you think this suggestion is ridiculous, then you have to consider a wife not making love to her husband for the rest of her life ridiculous as well. All of the excuses in the world won't make this OK, niceface. At this point, you should know this.

[Steen719]

It's Very thin tin foil. Yas

 

You are crazy in a good way, Yas. Gotta love ya!

[dreamingoftigers]

It's tears.

 

What can you do to prepare yourself for tears?

 

Something further here:

 

It would not surprise me in the least if there is a HUGE pile of built-up resent on her end over not feeling you emotionally present to her over the years.

 

What makes me say this is that tears are a pretty normal part of our emotional cycle and provide a release.

 

Men don't tend to cry very often and are heavily socialized out of it in our society. But for women it isn't often a point of manipulation or forced reaction.

 

I have cried often but CANNOT force myself to.

Tears are not a way for me to score points in an argument or "make you feel bad."

 

They are a release when my mind and body get to a hurt or frustrated state.

Conflicts can also be hurtful and frustrating at the best of times.

 

Tears to her is probably like sex to you: a much-needed release and opportunity for connection.

 

When she cries, do you draw her close and reassure her. Or do you try to get her to stop crying? (Thus stopping the emotional release?)

 

I think men who are not there for tears should not count on their wives being there for sex.

 

She probably feels pushed into sex without having her emotional release and reassurance. The same as you feel threatened by her emotional release.

 

By the way. I am never more horny than when my husband actually listens to me through tears, hugs me through it and kisses my forehead.

 

Unfortunately he can't see the mechanism there and takes the tears personally, thereby cock-blocking himself.

[dreamingoftigers]

It's tears. But she keeps saying it is because of her physical condition with her ear. I know it sounds like a BIG LAUGH on a forum like this, but she has been dead serious about her problem. I've hung on for years now at least trying to sympathize with her, but something is still not adding up for me.

I love her meals, and the 8 acre lot I live on and have busted my hump on for the last 20 years, and it is just more convenient to see what my kids are up to. That is what has held me back from leaving. Just no bedroom. My c--K is complaining, but not the rest of me.

(Now there will be a dozen more 'GET OUT' replies here.)

 

Has she had it medically checked?

 

Could it be psycho-somatic?

 

You are right about it not adding up.

 

Her ear doesn't stop her from giving you a handjob in ten years and separate bedrooms.

 

At the VERY LEAST she can't EXPECT you to do ALL OF the compromising.

[dreamingoftigers]

It's tears. But she keeps saying it is because of her physical condition with her ear. I know it sounds like a BIG LAUGH on a forum like this, but she has been dead serious about her problem. I've hung on for years now at least trying to sympathize with her, but something is still not adding up for me.

I love her meals, and the 8 acre lot I live on and have busted my hump on for the last 20 years, and it is just more convenient to see what my kids are up to. That is what has held me back from leaving. Just no bedroom. My c--K is complaining, but not the rest of me.

(Now there will be a dozen more 'GET OUT' replies here.)

 

Thanks for coming back and responding by the way.

 

Having had a sexless marriage I known it can be overwhelming (and a real piss off!)

[niceface]

Thanks for coming back and responding by the way.

 

Having had a sexless marriage I known it can be overwhelming (and a real piss off!)

 

Sex is just not on her radar screen anymore. She is a Bible prophecy zealot and an Alex Jones zealot. You can watch Alex Jones at infowars.com or on youtube, if you can take it for very long. He does make some good points, but I have been shoved aside. She just wants my paycheck and a handyman/yardman around the house, that she has had for the last 28 years. She hates medical doctors and goes to a homeopathic doctor (an Indian lady) for herbal medicines. She keeps telling me the herbal stuff takes a lot more time to heal her.

I know I will be out of here soon, one way or the other. Her mother (remember, she lives in the house with us) will tell me I will be going to hell if I leave.

Edited January 19, 2014 by niceface

[Yasuandio]

My c--K is complaining, but not the rest of me.

 

There is this "serious" (not sleezy) company called, I think, "Adam and Eve." They have all kind of interesting, creative devices for men in your situation, at reasonable prices. I was really surprised - the industry has come a long way! I would check out thier website - they include a free gift with your order! Package is plain, it is just like shopping at one eight hundred petmeds. Easy-breezy. Y

 

PS here's the website: http://www.adameve.com

Edited January 19, 2014 by Yasuandio

[dreamingoftigers]

Oh gawd.

 

Don't divorce her over the sexless marriage.

Alex Jones should be ammended to be considered fault in every state. Divorce her because of Alex Jones.

I don't care if he is right, wrong or in between. He's aggravating!

 

Lay your cards out.

 

"Can you talk to me privately?"

" I need us both to stay calm while we talk because I can't handle a large upset. Do you think we can do that now or when is a good time?"

 

"I wrote a letter because there's a lot of information that might take awhile to get out if we tried to talk about it."

-------------------

"This situation of us not being intimate is no longer working for me. At all. I have tried to approach it in various way throughout the years. Maybe not enough. Maybe not in a big enough way.

 

I feel used. I feel that my intimate needs as a man and partner are not valued. I understand that you have a medical condition but it has been DECIDED FOR ME that I will live without a sexual or intimate partner without even seeing if that was OKAY with me.

 

I am still expected to provide for all of the basics as husband and father while being isolated.

You and your mother may believe that I am destined for Hell if I leave. But living without feeling loved and appreciated is ALREADY like Hell, and that is not up to either of you to decide for me AND is my personal business.

 

The resent of this situation including not putting a greater priority on our partnership and my feelings has caused me to want to leave. Permanently.

 

I understand that you still do valuable things that you put effort into. Your meals are delicious to cite one example. But I am willing to give up everything to have a CHANCE of feeling loved and appreciated for who I AM in the emotional and intimate sense instead of what I CAN PROVIDE. Which is EXACTLY how I feel.

 

You can choose to ignore this. You can be upset, angry or indifferent. Although I care about how you feel, the result IS THE SAME. I AM ALONE IN MY BED. And nothing else replaces that.

 

This is to let you know that the current situation is unsustainable. It WILL change. It already IS changing by me addressing it. I am not in any way trying to threaten or blindside you. But I DID NOT SIGN UP FOR THIS and it is UNREALISTIC to morally bully me ("threats of Hell etc.") For me to continue.

 

When you feel that we can rationally discuss Next Steps, let me know. But there are going to be NEXT STEPS. And just for future reference, this situation at this point is between us. I do not welcome the input of your mother or our children at this point. If their living situation changes and when our relational status changes we can INFORM them and deal with their feelings AT THAT TIME. I am not soliciting their opinions. I have my own

 

Let me know how you think this should take shape,

 

niceface

 

(PS Alex Jones sucks)

[dreamingoftigers]

Sex is just not on her radar screen anymore. She is a Bible prophecy zealot and an Alex Jones zealot. You can watch Him at......

 

No, no I can't......

[RonaldS]

The tears are a form of manipulation and a power-play. Just ignore them. When manipulators don't get their way, they revert to the tactic that has worked for them since they were babies....crying.

 

In the months before my marriage finally broke apart, I told my XW that I wasn't happy. There were many, many things she did and didn't do that were totally corrosive and destructive. I tried to talk to her about those things, and how they made me feel, etc. I really reached out to her and tried to communicate those things because I wanted things to work. I wanted to find a way to fix those things.

 

What did she do? Cried. Cried because me saying those things 'hurt' her. She was hurt that I would ever imply that she wasn't an amazing wife (she wasn't...in retrospect, she was awful). Anyway, what the tears did, and what she knew they would do, is break me down from my position, put me in that mode where I just came in and fixed everything for her, and she could have the power back. So, I would feel bad, and work to make her 'happy' again, and get things back to 'normal'.

 

In reality, all I was doing was compromising and sacrificing my own happiness and equity in the relationship so that she could continue to parasitize me and get everything she wanted without having to give anything.

 

Once I figured that out, I just ignored her when she cried and didn't give in to anything. Take control of your life. Her tears are fake...they're just a tool she uses to maintain control of you.

 

Honestly, if I were in your position, and she were freezing me out and then crying when I expressed my feelings about it, I would summarily tell her to go f**k herself.

[Yasuandio]

Oh gawd.

 

Don't divorce her over the sexless marriage.

Alex Jones should be ammended to be considered fault in every state. Divorce her because of Alex Jones.

I don't care if he is right, wrong or in between. He's aggravating!

 

Lay your cards out.

 

"Can you talk to me privately?"

" I need us both to stay calm while we talk because I can't handle a large upset. Do you think we can do that now or when is a good time?"

 

"I wrote a letter because there's a lot of information that might take awhile to get out if we tried to talk about it."

-------------------

"This situation of us not being intimate is no longer working for me. At all. I have tried to approach it in various way throughout the years. Maybe not enough. Maybe not in a big enough way.

 

I feel used. I feel that my intimate needs as a man and partner are not valued. I understand that you have a medical condition but it has been DECIDED FOR ME that I will live without a sexual or intimate partner without even seeing if that was OKAY with me.

 

I am still expected to provide for all of the basics as husband and father while being isolated.

You and your mother may believe that I am destined for Hell if I leave. But living without feeling loved and appreciated is ALREADY like Hell, and that is not up to either of you to decide for me AND is my personal business.

 

The resent of this situation including not putting a greater priority on our partnership and my feelings has caused me to want to leave. Permanently.

 

I understand that you still do valuable things that you put effort into. Your meals are delicious to cite one example. But I am willing to give up everything to have a CHANCE of feeling loved and appreciated for who I AM in the emotional and intimate sense instead of what I CAN PROVIDE. Which is EXACTLY how I feel.

 

You can choose to ignore this. You can be upset, angry or indifferent. Although I care about how you feel, the result IS THE SAME. I AM ALONE IN MY BED. And nothing else replaces that.

 

This is to let you know that the current situation is unsustainable. It WILL change. It already IS changing by me addressing it. I am not in any way trying to threaten or blindside you. But I DID NOT SIGN UP FOR THIS and it is UNREALISTIC to morally bully me ("threats of Hell etc.") For me to continue.

 

When you feel that we can rationally discuss Next Steps, let me know. But there are going to be NEXT STEPS. And just for future reference, this situation at this point is between us. I do not welcome the input of your mother or our children at this point. If their living situation changes and when our relational status changes we can INFORM them and deal with their feelings AT THAT TIME. I am not soliciting their opinions. I have my own

 

Let me know how you think this should take shape,

 

niceface

 

(PS Alex Jones sucks)

 

This is an outstanding letter DOT took the time to prepare for you. I would add more than one positive item besides the wonderful dinners - perhaps three things.

 

This suggestion is not necessarily for the letter:

 

I would absolutely insist, (at some point in discussions) on medical intervention for the hearing issue - not holistic. It sounds very serious - and not improving. It could be anything from tenninitis to a brain tumor - WHO KNOWS? I bet the Indian practioner doesn't have an MRI machine on her premises - and she may need one if a medical doctor, ear specialist or multispecialist like a otorhinolaryngologist (I think that is what they are called) cannot figure her problem out. She appears to be in denial about it too. I would make the medical exam another one of the DEALBREAKERS.

 

Those are my suggestions to add to conditions for letter, and/or recon (if that is even in the cards).

 

I was in a sexless marriage too, I get it. And there is only one way to stay

stay faithful. And once you get out of the marriage - sex ain't gonna fix the problem of long term rejection. I promise you that.

 

That is why I really like Dot's approach. It kind of reminds me of the Horder's show - if you ever saw that show. The horder get sick, and collect to much junk, animals, crap, garbage, - almost anything is possible. There is usually a trigger to this over collecting; such as the loss of a family member(s), divorce, childhood abuse. At first, some horders are all gun-ho - let's do this! Other horders are forced - and in danger of losing their home, or dealing with social services. Either way, once the clean-up people and family start loading the tons of garbage on the truck, the hoarder walks away from the scene - then the clean-up has to come to a halt (cause hoarder is property owner).

 

Usually the psychiatrist steps in at this point, and forces a confrontation with the family member(s) and the hoarder - and it is the family member who has been really suffering, and holds pent up pain, anger, and hostility also (and hoarder just was denial about that). Once faced with reality of losing family (or going to jail, or a nursing facility, or losing the house) compared to holding on to trash (and often unsanitary conditions) piled to the ceiling, the hoarder finally figures out what is important. It is like what Dobson suggests, it takes a CRISIS to wake the other person up. And when we don't make a crisis out of unacceptable conduct we are teaching the other it is ok to treat Us in this manner.

 

That is why I like Dot's approach and the "to the point" wording. I guess I'm talking about this show cause I'm expecting your wife to ignore (walk away from) the letter - UNTIL she sees you begin to start enforcing it (that will be the day a sticker appears on the door of your house that's says CONDEMNED, and she won't be able to ignore legal papers and Judge's Orders).

 

You gotta stand by it, though. Look at Dobson's book if u can. It is a classic.

Hope this helps. Yas

[dreamingoftigers]

The tears are a form of manipulation and a power-play. Just ignore them. When manipulators don't get their way, they revert to the tactic that has worked for them since they were babies....crying.

 

In the months before my marriage finally broke apart, I told my XW that I wasn't happy. There were many, many things she did and didn't do that were totally corrosive and destructive. I tried to talk to her about those things, and how they made me feel, etc. I really reached out to her and tried to communicate those things because I wanted things to work. I wanted to find a way to fix those things.

 

What did she do? Cried. Cried because me saying those things 'hurt' her. She was hurt that I would ever imply that she wasn't an amazing wife (she wasn't...in retrospect, she was awful). Anyway, what the tears did, and what she knew they would do, is break me down from my position, put me in that mode where I just came in and fixed everything for her, and she could have the power back. So, I would feel bad, and work to make her 'happy' again, and get things back to 'normal'.

 

In reality, all I was doing was compromising and sacrificing my own happiness and equity in the relationship so that she could continue to parasitize me and get everything she wanted without having to give anything.

 

Once I figured that out, I just ignored her when she cried and didn't give in to anything. Take control of your life. Her tears are fake...they're just a tool she uses to maintain control of you.

 

Honestly, if I were in your position, and she were freezing me out and then crying when I expressed my feelings about it, I would summarily tell her to go f**k herself.

 

Generally tears ARE about hurt.

And your wife probably WAS hurt.

BUT that did not make your issue or feelings any less valid.

 

Often if an issue is brought up as purely blame IT WILL HURT and IT WON'T GET YOU THE RESULT YOU WANT.

 

My advice in general is to respond to the FEELING but don't drop the ISSUE.

 

That way you don't cave (your reaction and choice) and you aren't a prick about it (again your reaction and choice) and you don't "manage" someone else's feelings (that's THEIR JOB).

 

By trying to be a "fixer" and assign motivations to their feelings ("i.e. trying to control ME) you lose sight of the goal and emotionally kneecap your partner.

 

It's not about kissing ass.

It's about staying focused, doing what works and remaining a team.

 

Labelling your wife as a "manipulative-baby" type when she may never have learned another relationship coping skill OR may be particularly sensitive to shame only makes things more difficult.

 

As I am sure that you noticed as your relationship headed toward divorce.

Gottmann has some excellent resources for approaching and managing conflict.