Guilty by Association

[findingnemo]

I absolutely feel this way. I feel like my friends and some of my family look at me and shake their heads because they can't figure out why I'm still staying with my husband, despite the fact he has done so much to make ammends (counseling with a personal counselor, marriage counseling, meeting with our pastor, giving me the password to all his accounts, leaving his phone where I can see it, talking to me about issues he felt led to all this...though sometimes I hate the blame game, he's at least trying).

 

I totally get what you are saying. I could have written this myself.

 

Human beings can be weird. The ones shaking their heads may know more about the WS and feel that he/she doesn't deserve forgiving. The next time someone seems to disapprove of your decision to R, ask them why. Many times people know more than the BS about the WS' cheating ways but never say a thing. If any of them knows of other As, then you will know why they feel the way they do. More importantly, you will know more about your WS.

 

If it is a person who has never experienced infidelity and has no additional information, then that person is simply giving you his/her opinion which is neither here nor there. As long as you feel sure you know everything and you have decided to R, start acting different around those people who know about the A and who are close enough to matter. Make it clear that you have decided to R and that's that.

 

It is sad that people put others in the position of defending their decisions as if being a BS isn't hard enough.

[lilmisscantbewrong]

As for the topic, this is why I ultimately just say cheating should not be forgiven. It takes too much of a toll, this person who forgives will still have to suffer the little things in a relationship with their cheating partner from now on.

 

The worst is thinking you can handle it and then finding out later you can't. You feel like the one who has done something wrong then..like you wasted everyone's time. Then of course you get angry at your cheating spouse because you feel bad for something they did, even though you know that is wrong..and it just builds in a cycle, etc.

 

And spectre - this is a real fear of mine - for both of us.

[waterwoman]

The shame I felt was tied in with my not feeling good enough so the affair was my fault. I have always fought feelings of inadquacy so the affair let them rip! They validated those feelings because no man would have an affair if his wife wasn't hopeless would he? I have largely rid myself of that feeling so the shame is gone.

 

I feel no shame at all for reconciling - it was what I wanted and what I beleived was best for our family.

[Realist3]

Where do you live, 48?

[Confused48]

Where do you live, 48?

 

I know, right? Its like I'm from the middle east or something. Thats how I feel and it surprises me. I'm a very politically liberal person living in the USA. Makes no sense.

[Eggplant]

So in my personal experience, the men pretty much placed the blame on their OW.

I didn't even know the MM was married, and left when I found out, but he was still going on about how I "stole" his heart! As though I made him cheat!

[confusedandhurt2002]

Raising hand! "Me!"

 

Could have written this myself!

 

Also, for me reconciling was important because I still love him and feel he has been showing he loves me. This week has been a huge eye opener with some of the things he's said and expressed to me about what he has done.

 

The shame I felt was tied in with my not feeling good enough so the affair was my fault. I have always fought feelings of inadquacy so the affair let them rip! They validated those feelings because no man would have an affair if his wife wasn't hopeless would he? I have largely rid myself of that feeling so the shame is gone.

 

I feel no shame at all for reconciling - it was what I wanted and what I beleived was best for our family.

[confusedandhurt2002]

Mine did not put blame on her and it actally made me mad he didn't at first. Instead he briefly tried to blame me, but retracted that almost immediately and since day one has put the blame square on his own shoulders. I blamed her, in the beginning, because she went after my husband, but of course when my emotions started to calm down I blamed him more than her. I still can't stand her and think she's trash, but that's for a variety of reasons. ;-)

I didn't even know the MM was married, and left when I found out, but he was still going on about how I "stole" his heart! As though I made him cheat!

[drifter777]

I know, right? Its like I'm from the middle east or something. Thats how I feel and it surprises me. I'm a very politically liberal person living in the USA. Makes no sense.

The heart is apolitical - it only knows what you feel. As far as making no sense; stop trying to make sense out of nonsense.

[Snowflower]

Mine did not put blame on her and it actally made me mad he didn't at first. Instead he briefly tried to blame me, but retracted that almost immediately and since day one has put the blame square on his own shoulders. I blamed her, in the beginning, because she went after my husband, but of course when my emotions started to calm down I blamed him more than her. I still can't stand her and think she's trash, but that's for a variety of reasons. ;-)

 

^^^This was very much my experience as well.

 

My H didn't say anything derogatory to me about the OW. He didn't blame her and has always maintained throughout our numerous talks at that time that "she just really, really liked me (meaning him, my H). I have a feeling she used the L word toward him but he would never tell me because he knew that would hurt me.

 

Like you Confused, at first I was a little upset that he wasn't ripping on her like I wanted to. But then I came to the conclusion that I wouldn't want a man who was like that because then that meant that he was ripping on me to her. Of course, he says he did not ever do that. And of course, I will never know for sure. Especially now, 5 years gone by.

 

One thing women involved in affairs should consider, whether they are the BW or the OW, is that if the man in question is trash talking one woman with the other, then you can bet he is or will do that to you. More specifically, if you are an OW whose MM is always trash talking/blaming his BW, then you can bet that this is a character flaw that he has and at d-day, he will do the same thing to you...he will trash talk you and blame YOU, the OW, to his wife.

 

It's just how these things work. And BW whose husbands do blame/trash-talk the OW, well don't feel too smug...he probably blamed and trash talked you, the BW, when he was with the OW.

 

I hadn't thought about this particular aspect in quite some time. It's good to revisit these things with the new perspective offered by time and distance.

[Confused48]

As for the topic, this is why I ultimately just say cheating should not be forgiven. It takes too much of a toll, this person who forgives will still have to suffer the little things in a relationship with their cheating partner from now on.

 

The worst is thinking you can handle it and then finding out later you can't. You feel like the one who has done something wrong then..like you wasted everyone's time. Then of course you get angry at your cheating spouse because you feel bad for something they did, even though you know that is wrong..and it just builds in a cycle, etc.

 

I get this all except the last part. I recall Dichotomy saying that he felt if ten years from now he decided he wanted out, then he had a guilt free pass to leave. I guess that would be more cruel to the WS than to just end it on Dday. I don't think it is unreasonable though as long as the WS knows that is what the BS is thinking.

 

OP, it is NO different than a bank robbery, rape, burglary of a convenience store.......

 

if someone in your family commits a CRIME OR ACT OF INDISCRETION....like infidelity....the whole family suffers.

 

It is called being found guilty by a jury of your PEERS....whether in a courtroom or not.

 

people JUDGE and judge by association. It is NOT fair always....but it happens all the time.

 

In many affairs, my case included, almost no one knows about the "crime." Still, I feel the judgment of something, collective unconscious maybe?

 

I absolutely feel this way. I feel like my friends and some of my family look at me and shake their heads because they can't figure out why I'm still staying with my husband, despite the fact he has done so much to make ammends (counseling with a personal counselor, marriage counseling, meeting with our pastor, giving me the password to all his accounts, leaving his phone where I can see it, talking to me about issues he felt led to all this...though sometimes I hate the blame game, he's at least trying).

 

I totally get what you are saying. I could have written this myself.

 

I'm sorry you have this public exposure.

 

Don't put up with the blame shifting! It happened to me at first and it was empowering in the end. When WS had to admit the truth to self about why it happened.

 

The shame I felt was tied in with my not feeling good enough so the affair was my fault. I have always fought feelings of inadquacy so the affair let them rip! They validated those feelings because no man would have an affair if his wife wasn't hopeless would he? I have largely rid myself of that feeling so the shame is gone.

 

I feel no shame at all for reconciling - it was what I wanted and what I beleived was best for our family.

 

Blame shifting all by yourself. Blaming yourself for the A even when the WS does not. I did that too. Good IC is a cure for that.

 

What if what is best for you, for your family, is not the right thing in a big picture sort of way? What if it is selfish?

[confusedandhurt2002]

My husband always has maintained he didn't talk bad about me. I don't know if I believe him or not. The worst thing he's said about her is: "seriously...she isn't very bright." and that she only talked about her own problems when they talked and trashed her husband all of the time. That trashing must have worked because my husband has no respect for that guy. I don't have much for him either, but because I think he cheated on her too and is just as trashy of a person.(not that he can't change someday but for now he's trashy.)

 

^^^This was very much my experience as well.

 

My H didn't say anything derogatory to me about the OW. He didn't blame her and has always maintained throughout our numerous talks at that time that "she just really, really liked me (meaning him, my H). I have a feeling she used the L word toward him but he would never tell me because he knew that would hurt me.

 

Like you Confused, at first I was a little upset that he wasn't ripping on her like I wanted to. But then I came to the conclusion that I wouldn't want a man who was like that because then that meant that he was ripping on me to her. Of course, he says he did not ever do that. And of course, I will never know for sure. Especially now, 5 years gone by.

 

One thing women involved in affairs should consider, whether they are the BW or the OW, is that if the man in question is trash talking one woman with the other, then you can bet he is or will do that to you. More specifically, if you are an OW whose MM is always trash talking/blaming his BW, then you can bet that this is a character flaw that he has and at d-day, he will do the same thing to you...he will trash talk you and blame YOU, the OW, to his wife.

 

It's just how these things work. And BW whose husbands do blame/trash-talk the OW, well don't feel too smug...he probably blamed and trash talked you, the BW, when he was with the OW.

 

I hadn't thought about this particular aspect in quite some time. It's good to revisit these things with the new perspective offered by time and distance.

[Fluttershy]

Confused-Ten years is double the longest time given for the average it takes to recover. Someone who sticks around that long and then leaves is just using the infidelity as an excuse to make themselves look better. IF there has been no further indiscretions that is.

[findingnemo]

Confused-Ten years is double the longest time given for the average it takes to recover. Someone who sticks around that long and then leaves is just using the infidelity as an excuse to make themselves look better. IF there has been no further indiscretions that is.

 

It can happen... In the case where there are young children involved, a BS can feel compelled to stay and even find love in their heart for the other parent of his/her children. Ten years later, after the kids have gone to college or are M or have otherwise moved on, the two spouses are left with just each other and suddenly there is time to really think about the effects of the A and its implications including the overwhelming feeling of guilt for having "accepted" to live with a cheater (and therefore cheated yourself out of a true and loyal love). The Empty Nest syndrome has been known to unearth long buried hatchets that can prove to be fatal to long-standing Ms. But we digress...

[findingnemo]

This is such an important topic that is rarely discussed...at least where I'm from. Guilt by association is something BS' suffer from much like victims of domestic violence. It's like some sort of PTSD, IMO. You stay M but voices in your head tell you that you a) have something wrong with your spouse picker and so are partially responsible (you made your bed... kind of thing), b) are a weak person for "tolerating" being cheated on or beaten (others have gotten D immediately and for less) or c) have unintentionally given your spouse a green card to go sleeping around AGAIN/or hitting you AGAIN since the repercussions were not damaging enough.

 

No one needs to actually say those things to you. Most people have a clear idea about cheating and domestic violence from early on in life. When it happens to you, you don't expect it and have to make a decision based on many factors, not solely how you feel. So I think that one's sub-conscious will keeping bringing to light your previously held views about what you would do if your spouse, bf or gf ever cheated or hit you. And for most of us, unfortunately, the reality of how we react is very different from what we believed we would do when we were younger. Even now that I got my D, I still feel like I brought the violence onto myself somehow. I feel like to add insult to injury my xH had As as if to say that something was/is really wrong with me that I got two for two. I know it doesn't make sense. I tend to change my thinking as soon as I notice such negative thoughts. But the guilt is still there.

[Fluttershy]

It can happen... In the case where there are young children involved, a BS can feel compelled to stay and even find love in their heart for the other parent of his/her children. Ten years later, after the kids have gone to college or are M or have otherwise moved on, the two spouses are left with just each other and suddenly there is time to really think about the effects of the A and its implications including the overwhelming feeling of guilt for having "accepted" to live with a cheater (and therefore cheated yourself out of a true and loyal love). The Empty Nest syndrome has been known to unearth long buried hatchets that can prove to be fatal to long-standing Ms. But we digress...

 

If a person is staying only until the kids leave and they know it then they should tell their spouse that. Otherwise all they are doing is being dishonest and committing an act of betrayal.

If a person is really putting an effort into the marriage then hangin onto "in ten years I shall leave guilt free if I want" is not goin to help with the marriage. That is just holding someone's wrong going over their head so you don't have to take any responsibility for your own.

You can say the affair forever changed the dynamic of the marriage that led to the demise of a marriage. But to somehow think you are washed of all responsibility? (which is what guilt free implies) That is just immature and dishonest with oneself.

[Spark1111]

If a person is staying only until the kids leave and they know it then they should tell their spouse that. Otherwise all they are doing is being dishonest and committing an act of betrayal.

If a person is really putting an effort into the marriage then hangin onto "in ten years I shall leave guilt free if I want" is not goin to help with the marriage. That is just holding someone's wrong going over their head so you don't have to take any responsibility for your own.

You can say the affair forever changed the dynamic of the marriage that led to the demise of a marriage. But to somehow think you are washed of all responsibility? (which is what guilt free implies) That is just immature and dishonest with oneself.

 

Idk Fluttershy.....

 

I would never judge a young SAHM for choosing to keep hearth and home for her babies with some philandering SOB.

 

It takes time and maturity of the offspring to garner a job and gain financial independence.

 

many a woman has turned a blind eye and endured nonsense for the sake of her babies.

 

I would never judge that situation.....Maternal instinct can trump all....

[Fluttershy]

Idk Fluttershy.....

 

I would never judge a young SAHM for choosing to keep hearth and home for her babies with some philandering SOB.

 

It takes time and maturity of the offspring to garner a job and gain financial independence.

 

many a woman has turned a blind eye and endured nonsense for the sake of her babies.

 

I would never judge that situation.....Maternal instinct can trump all....

 

I wouldn't judge her for it but this is a forum where advice is handed out an I'd never advise a woman to stay with an unremorseful cheater. And i he was sorry I'd never advise her to pretend to reconcile until the kids were grown. Many women have stayed with disgusting pigs of men because of their own skewered view of "family". I know if my husband was disrespecting me enough continue cheatin on me I would rather split and let my kids know that isn't the kind've behaviour one has to put up with in order to protect your kids. In fact, i think staying in the case of a seriel cheater SOB is the opposite of protecting the kids. So as I said I would never offer advice to someone to stay in that particular situation.

[Bryanp]

I am just curious but if the roles had been reversed and you had humiliated and disrespected your wife in such a horrible way, do you think she would have been so accepting and forgiving as you have been?

[Fluttershy]

I am just curious but if the roles had been reversed and you had humiliated and disrespected your wife in such a horrible way, do you think she would have been so accepting and forgiving as you have been?

 

This is one question I never understand. First of all, it is hypothetical and no one knows the answer. Second, doing what is best for us has nothing to do with the hypothetical answer. Just like many people say they would kick a cheater out upon first discovery and don't because the reality is much different then the scenereo so it will be with the WS. OP has no idea how is wife would react. Just like many a WS has been surprised by their BS upon DDay (some because they thought they'd be forgiven and others because they were sure they'd be packing their bags.) So to me this is an unimportant and hypothetical question that can never be really answered because no one knows. Not the WS or the BS.

[crederer]

I was never married but had a 6 year relationship. When my partner was having an affair I kept it a secret from people because I was embarassed and ashamed. She cut it off when I found out (apparently). I then eventually realized that's not the way I should feel about my partner or allow my partner to cause me to feel that way and moved on.

[drifter777]

If a person is staying only until the kids leave and they know it then they should tell their spouse that. Otherwise all they are doing is being dishonest and committing an act of betrayal.

If a person is really putting an effort into the marriage then hangin onto "in ten years I shall leave guilt free if I want" is not goin to help with the marriage. That is just holding someone's wrong going over their head so you don't have to take any responsibility for your own.

You can say the affair forever changed the dynamic of the marriage that led to the demise of a marriage. But to somehow think you are washed of all responsibility? (which is what guilt free implies) That is just immature and dishonest with oneself.

Are you a BS or WS?

 

I guess you are entitled to your opinion even if it sounds immature. You admit that people really don't know how they will react to infidelity but discount the choice of staying in order to keep the family together - at least for the present - as "betrayal". You really should keep the betrayer straight - it's the cheater. Plotting revenge down the road is a viable option for the BS and one that many of them cling to whether they ever act on it or not. It might be the only thing that keeps them from suicide.

[Fluttershy]

Are you a BS or WS?

 

I guess you are entitled to your opinion even if it sounds immature. You admit that people really don't know how they will react to infidelity but discount the choice of staying in order to keep the family together - at least for the present - as "betrayal". You really should keep the betrayer straight - it's the cheater. Plotting revenge down the road is a viable option for the BS and one that many of them cling to whether they ever act on it or not. It might be the only thing that keeps them from suicide.

 

Why is what I say immature? We are talking about choices here and what is healthy. A cheater betrayed their partner. I didn't say otherwise. But that doesn't mean te betrayed can't every turn betrayer. If someone chooses to stay for the kids, pretends to forgive and love their spouse invluding sayin ILy and making future plans for x amount of years all the while gathering money and plotting to leave then what they are doing is betraying the original betrayer who has cleaned up their act and been a better person. So one person improves themselves and moves on and the other commits an act of deception and betrayal. If the BS wants to stay to keep a one family home they should tell their WS that. Because the other way is wrong. The obly thing missing from it is the sex. Saying otherwise is a double standard.

As to the plotting revenge to keep from suicide, that is a problem within the BS that needs to be dealt with. Otherwise when revenge is acted on and the BS realizes no amount of inflicting pain on others will make yourself feel better they will be at risk once again for suicide.

 

Cheatin hurts, it kills, it is beyond describable the pain you feel. But I am a firm believer we all make our own choices. And are 100% responsible for how we act.

 

So lying and deceiving is wrong. Violence unless to protect or defend is wrong. Purposefuly setting out to destroy someone's life because they hurt us is wrong.