drifter777 Posted December 9, 2013 Posted December 9, 2013 I've responded to this comment many times here at LS so anyone who knows me knows how I feel about this. I will never forgive myself for not divorcing my wife instead of coming back to her when she begged me to. Yes, I was not happy with the thought of being a weekend father but the bottom line reason I didn't leave was fear. Why that scar has reopened after a couple of decades? I tried to compartmentalize and forget, but I realized I hated myself for staying with her four or five years after the incident. By then we had two more children and I was trapped by my own sense of duty. At least that's what I told myself, but it was still fear of being alone. Irrational fear at that because I was a successful engineer and very attractive to women. But still I was terrified of being without my wife and family. Now that all my kids are grown I'm allowing my emotions to fall on me and the memories and images are as horrible as ever. Because of this we have actually began to address this thing. We have made progress trying to repair the damage it has done to me, but there's still work ahead of us. And now we may never be able to get it resolved because we are parents again. My daughter is in the process of destroying herself with drugs and my wife and I are raising her son - our precious grandson. My daughter is also bipolar - untreated - so the chances of her straightening out her life anytime soon are bleak. We've had the boy since this past April and are now working to get non-parental custody. The pain of doing this to my daughter is nearly unbearable, but providing my grandson with a stable, loving environment is more important to me than my own life. So I'm sacrificing my life for him - gladly. I am angry and frustrated with fate or karma or whatever but accept that this is why I'm here on earth right now. So now I'm in the same place I was at so many years ago. And again, it's fear that is keeping me down. The fear of my grandson living with my sick daughter is real and overwhelming. She is mad about the permanent custody thing, but she doesn't want him right now. Foster care for him? I would commit suicide before I let him be part of that system. There is no choice. Dejav Vu all over again. 1
Fluttershy Posted December 9, 2013 Posted December 9, 2013 I haven't seen people say it is easier to walk away. I have seen people say it takes strength to do both. I think for the individual they may choose the path they feel is easier or the may choose the path they want. But it takes a strong peron to stay and have real reconciliation. And it takes a strong person to say "enough" leave and get past the hurt and betrayal in a way that doesn't stop them from leading a full and happy life. Stop regretting the path you chose. Regret won't change squat. Focus on the path ahead and your life now. I am deeply sorry aboit your daughter and I hope you are able to keep your grandson. Two loving parents is a wonderful gift for him. 3
yellowmaverick Posted December 9, 2013 Posted December 9, 2013 Choosing not to R with my WH is the most difficult decision that I have ever made. I agonized for two years over the right decision for my children. We have agreed to raise the last two together in the same house until they go to college because that is what my children want. I will not date under this arrangement, so my life is put on hold another three years. However, after seeing my daughter's high school experience destroyed when we separated briefly about a year after d-day, I knew that I could not do that to the other ones. Surprisingly, my WH and I are able to be amicable. He is helping out with the kids and the home like he should have done years ago. It won't save us, but I believe that it is best for our children for now.
experiencethedevine Posted December 9, 2013 Posted December 9, 2013 drifter and yellowmaverick, you have made sacrifices for your children/grandchildren that go way beyond the infidelity to which you have been subjected, and I commend you both for your sensitivity to your families needs. What you're doing is so unselfish it is very humbling. I do genuinely hope that one day you will both find happiness of your own, but in the meantime, the pleasure and pride of witnessing those well adjusted and happy charges will surely be reflected when they are young adults. I wish you both great happiness in the future. 2
yellowmaverick Posted December 9, 2013 Posted December 9, 2013 drifter and yellowmaverick, you have made sacrifices for your children/grandchildren that go way beyond the infidelity to which you have been subjected, and I commend you both for your sensitivity to your families needs. What you're doing is so unselfish it is very humbling. I do genuinely hope that one day you will both find happiness of your own, but in the meantime, the pleasure and pride of witnessing those well adjusted and happy charges will surely be reflected when they are young adults. I wish you both great happiness in the future. I appreciate the sentiment, experience, but I am no martyr. The situation is tremendously sad, but not unbearable for me. I am savoring every moment with my children and my "family unit", even though I am taking steps on the side to leave in three years. The fact is, we were a very tight family until his affair. We did virtually everything together and held values (or so I thought) that were reminiscent of the 50s - dinner together, lots of family traditions, vacations with extended family, supporting each other's hobbies/sports. My children are very close in age and are tight-nit. I can't for the life of me understand why he did what he did. I KNOW that he loved our family unit, our children, and me. Why the he** he put it all in jeopardy I will never understand. I just know that the fallout of the affair was too overwhelming, too deep, and too far-reaching for me to just "get over". When our children are gone, I will not have a life that includes him. 1
lilmisscantbewrong Posted December 9, 2013 Posted December 9, 2013 Agreed - incredible sacrifices - for which I am very humbled and moved by it. Drifter - you are incredible. Do not regret your path -it does nothing for you but send you into a whirlwind of confusion. I don't know if you were weak or not or afraid to be alone, but many of us are like that - not just you. Life hands us some bizarre things sometimes, but it sounds like you and your wife are on the same page here in regards to your daughter and that precious grandbaby. Use that commonality to your advantage. Maybe this will actually strengthen your marriage. Yellow - hats off to you. That would be incredibly difficult. I am amazed that this is a good working arrangement for you. I have known others (when I was young) that did the same thing. I hope it produces the results that you desire, however I would caution you to be careful in allowing the kids to drive that decision. From my own experience, I didn't want my parents to separate either, but my youngest brother and sister had a very different "childhood" than myself and my brother closest to me in age. The two of us (the oldest) had a more "normal" family. By the time I left home, my younger two siblings were seeing the dysfunction very clearly. When dad finally made the decision to leave, my baby sister said "It's about time". We got together as siblings a couple of years ago for a long weekend and what we decided was we would have been better off if he had left when we were young. We didn't see what a marriage should have been - we saw total dysfunction. Just my experience. I am certain you have thought this through and are doing what you feel best. Kudos - I wish you well!
compulsivedancer Posted December 9, 2013 Posted December 9, 2013 Agreed - incredible sacrifices - for which I am very humbled and moved by it. Drifter - you are incredible. Do not regret your path -it does nothing for you but send you into a whirlwind of confusion. I don't know if you were weak or not or afraid to be alone, but many of us are like that - not just you. Life hands us some bizarre things sometimes, but it sounds like you and your wife are on the same page here in regards to your daughter and that precious grandbaby. Use that commonality to your advantage. Maybe this will actually strengthen your marriage. Yellow - hats off to you. That would be incredibly difficult. I am amazed that this is a good working arrangement for you. I have known others (when I was young) that did the same thing. I hope it produces the results that you desire, however I would caution you to be careful in allowing the kids to drive that decision. From my own experience, I didn't want my parents to separate either, but my youngest brother and sister had a very different "childhood" than myself and my brother closest to me in age. The two of us (the oldest) had a more "normal" family. By the time I left home, my younger two siblings were seeing the dysfunction very clearly. When dad finally made the decision to leave, my baby sister said "It's about time". We got together as siblings a couple of years ago for a long weekend and what we decided was we would have been better off if he had left when we were young. We didn't see what a marriage should have been - we saw total dysfunction. Just my experience. I am certain you have thought this through and are doing what you feel best. Kudos - I wish you well! Ditto. I figured my parents would separate when I left for college. They actually did it a year sooner. I don't remember them being happy. I never learned from them what a happy marriage looked like. 1
compulsivedancer Posted December 9, 2013 Posted December 9, 2013 I've responded to this comment many times here at LS so anyone who knows me knows how I feel about this. I will never forgive myself for not divorcing my wife instead of coming back to her when she begged me to. Yes, I was not happy with the thought of being a weekend father but the bottom line reason I didn't leave was fear. Why that scar has reopened after a couple of decades? I tried to compartmentalize and forget, but I realized I hated myself for staying with her four or five years after the incident. By then we had two more children and I was trapped by my own sense of duty. At least that's what I told myself, but it was still fear of being alone. Irrational fear at that because I was a successful engineer and very attractive to women. But still I was terrified of being without my wife and family. Now that all my kids are grown I'm allowing my emotions to fall on me and the memories and images are as horrible as ever. Because of this we have actually began to address this thing. We have made progress trying to repair the damage it has done to me, but there's still work ahead of us. And now we may never be able to get it resolved because we are parents again. My daughter is in the process of destroying herself with drugs and my wife and I are raising her son - our precious grandson. My daughter is also bipolar - untreated - so the chances of her straightening out her life anytime soon are bleak. We've had the boy since this past April and are now working to get non-parental custody. The pain of doing this to my daughter is nearly unbearable, but providing my grandson with a stable, loving environment is more important to me than my own life. So I'm sacrificing my life for him - gladly. I am angry and frustrated with fate or karma or whatever but accept that this is why I'm here on earth right now. So now I'm in the same place I was at so many years ago. And again, it's fear that is keeping me down. The fear of my grandson living with my sick daughter is real and overwhelming. She is mad about the permanent custody thing, but she doesn't want him right now. Foster care for him? I would commit suicide before I let him be part of that system. There is no choice. Dejav Vu all over again. Drifter, just because there's a kid back in the house doesn't mean your progress as a couple has to stop. Keep working together on it. I find it incredible that after all these years, you can make progress on your relationship. 2
Fluttershy Posted December 9, 2013 Posted December 9, 2013 My caution for people who only stay for the kids is the same for those who cheat. You don't know how the kids will react when the truth comes out. My best friend growing up has a very disfunctional relationship with both we parents. She sees her teen years as a lie and that her parents decieved her. She feels she is to blame for their unhappiness because without her in the picture they wouldn't have stayed together pretending to be a healthy family. I can't talk to her anymore about it because she is an adult and is making her own choices of course. And honestly, her pov is valid for her. So you never know if your kids will think you made a sacrifice or that you decieved them thus skewering their view of what marriage is about or blame themselves for your unhappiness. That is why I, Caution anyone who stays together just for the kids.
dichotomy Posted December 9, 2013 Posted December 9, 2013 Staying "for the kids" is not as simple as some make it sound - and therefore not as easy to dismiss as part of the reasons for staying. Most assume this means - "I will be secretly miserable in order to provide my kids with an illusion of two happy parents"...but it can be oh so much more than this. 3
Fluttershy Posted December 9, 2013 Posted December 9, 2013 Staying "for the kids" is not as simple as some make it sound - and therefore not as easy to dismiss as part of the reasons for staying. Most assume this means - "I will be secretly miserable in order to provide my kids with an illusion of two happy parents"...but it can be oh so much more than this. But the key word is "part" not "sole". My friend's parent's stayed solely together for her. And it did not end well in their case. Besides this I always wonder at the similarities between the betrayed spouse staying for the kids and what the cheater says to their AP. "I'm staying for the kids"
dichotomy Posted December 9, 2013 Posted December 9, 2013 But the key word is "part" not "sole". My friend's parent's stayed solely together for her. And it did not end well in their case. Besides this I always wonder at the similarities between the betrayed spouse staying for the kids and what the cheater says to their AP. "I'm staying for the kids" Maybe some part of them want the kids to stay for them ....if you understand what I am saying. In other words some parents love being parents, full time, not part time... with a visitation schedule. I was a child of divorce. No doubt my dad was happier with his new wife for a while -good for him I guess - I was not so happy with the string of my mom's boyfriends/lovers, and then husbands, one of which abused me, moving around, money struggles. Your old friend may not have been able to imagine the other alternate life's she might have had if they divorced - but maybe her parents did. Staying "for the kids" even if its the primary reason - is a very complex issue. 2
Spectre Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) With things like this I think it is easier to stay. To lie to yourself and say "oh they will change" or "oh it will never happen again". Or to be so down on yourself you think "If I leave her I will never find anyone else, so I better take back this cheater, etc.". The strongest thing a person can do is to realize how utterly disrespectful cheating is and that they deserve to be with someone who is actually truly in love with them. So no, LEAVING a cheater isn't always the easy way out. Unfortunately it is usually harder, and sadly I see it day after day..people who forgive cheaters merely out of fear they will be alone forever if they did not. I feel sorrow for these people because they have essentially settled, they have essentially said "I do not feel I deserve to share my life with someone for whom I share a special kind of love with, the kind of love that would prevent them from ever cheating on me". I know kids, etc. can confuse matters, but honestly? At the end of the day as long as you are good and loving parents? Most of the time they will be fine. It won't be easy, but then..these are the consequences of cheating. This is why I would never ever advise someone to stay in a marriage solely for the benefit of the kids. Edited December 10, 2013 by Spectre 1
yellowmaverick Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 Staying "for the kids" is not as simple as some make it sound - and therefore not as easy to dismiss as part of the reasons for staying. Most assume this means - "I will be secretly miserable in order to provide my kids with an illusion of two happy parents"...but it can be oh so much more than this. Exactly. My children know about the affair and the arrangement. They wanted us to co-parent under one roof. The atmosphere is cordial and friendly. My WH and I love each other, so it's not like my children live with hostility. Is it ideal? No, but it's harmonious. I can't give my children the ideal situation, so I am just doing the best that I can.
atreides Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 (edited) I think the premise of "staying is the more difficult road" is a false argument. For many reasons, leaving is the more difficult choice more often than not. As the OP stated fear, then there is unwillingness to change and the countless variables of the unknown. I would propose this, an A forces the BS to be at a crossroads that they had no choice of arriving. It can be argued that the WS "left" and did not "stay" for the A (an easier path for their perceived unhappiness?) but had the luxury of stability the BS and family provided on the flip-side of the A. The BS has no such option, it is scorched earth in all directions for miles before greener pastures. The argument that R is harder relies on the assumption of the ability to forgive and conveniently forget, rekindle, regain and "be" for "love conquers all." R for kids or anything beyond coming to terms with the WS actions to rebuild the M is false. Those are non sequitur reasons for staying in the context of an A. I would even go further to say it is not R if those are the reasons given, for how can it be argued the BS has actually "forgiven" as in part to the other variables and really moved passed the A for themselves and spouse? I can however relate but nonetheless do not agree to the sentimental argument; that what was once a "beautiful", loving M should not be given up on or similar argument. I can only argue that the BS in most cases already gave up on the "sentiment", on that for which we prize most in a M beyond the semantics and comforts. The BS again is faced with a decision they likely never thought or ever wanted to be, face the infinite road of the unknown or rebuild. In all cases, I cannot agree that R is the harder road. Edited December 10, 2013 by atreides 1
Fluttershy Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 What I don't understand is why people feel the need to fight and defend and compare their choice? It is absurd that so many people make such sweeping statements about either. Life isn't a competition and both descision are hard to go through for their own reasons. It is wrong of people to tell people who reconcile that they do it because of fear or that they don't have good self-esteem. No one should feel guilty or like they are weak for giving their spouse a second chance. And if someone leaves. No one should tell then they took the easy way out. Because their is no easy way out. A sacrifice has to be made somewhere. Very few bs dance into the sunset joyous and carefree. Lots carry with them the pain of being betrayed and the realization you can never know what will happen in a future relationship. That any future spouse could choose to cheat as well. After all the one you just left did and for many they never thought their spouse could be so capable of cruelty. I am for true reconciliation. Unfortunatly too many stories are too screwed up for it to happen. Reconciliation is not harder than divorce. Divorce is not harder than reconcilation They are different and both involve pain. None of this of course includes what spectre described. That isn't reconciliation. That is not facing reality. There are many couples who deal with the infidelity head on and never have a spouse stray again. 3
Ap22 Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 There is no easier choice. You have to do whats best for you. Every person is different, every relationship is to. Just because someones relationship didnt work, doesnt mean yours wont. Lets see, split up your family forever and go through a messy divorce which will kill you emotionally and financially or stay with a person who stabbed you in the back and twisted it over and over..... There is no easy choice, there is no "strong" choice. You make the choice thats best for you. Hell, sometimes the choice isnt even up to you. In my case, its completely up to me. I made the choice that was best for me and my kids. Being strong has nothing to do with my choice. Seriously, which options were available? Option 1 - go through hell or Option 2 - go through hell.........Gee Johnny, I dont know..... 4
BetrayedH Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 I'm not sure why staying out of fear is such an unforgiveable offense. Dday serves up a disaster. I agree with the other poster that likened it to scorched earth in all directions. I was scared, that's for sure. Reconciling sucked. Divorcing sucked. You could have done much worse, Drifter. You could have made many more mistakes. Think back on my story if you'd like a list; I made them all. 4
Snowflower Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 I also wanted to add that no BS should be expected to make an instant decision regarding reconciliation or divorce. There is the misconception, no doubt perpetrated by movies, books and the like, that the BS should immediately toss the WS out on their butt after the cheating is discovered. There is usually no reason that a BS has to do this immediately. Sometimes, the situation warrants it but most of the time you have a groveling WS (whether the groveling is genuine or not is situational) and you, as a BS, feel like your life has completely been destroyed by a nuclear bomb. It is hard to make any life-altering decisions under those conditions. It's probably not wise to either. I always look at it as yes, infidelity is the ultimate dealbreaker and at any point in the future, the BS has the option to say that the situation is no longer working for them. People get divorced for far less all the time. Drifter, you are under no obligation to stay with your wife. Not at the time she cheated nor in any of the intervening years since that time. You sound unhappy--maybe it is time to finally do something about that. 3
peaksandvalleys Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 It was easy but very necessary. I think either decision requires courage and patience. Which ever way one is the best for the individual. 1
Fluttershy Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 It was easy but very necessary. I think either decision requires courage and patience. Which ever way one is the best for the individual. In your situation I think your husband made the descision pretty clear.
waterwoman Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 I'm not sure the word easy applies to either option. Neither is easy. Both are difficult, hard, painful work. I will admit that they first few months after dday seemed easy - lots of HB, lots of 'falling in love' again, we couldn't get enough of each other. I think I was anaesthetised with shock. THEN...... the doubts and fears began, then I began to question everything that he did and said, then the lack of self-esteem begin to bite. At that point the choice to simply walk away seemed the easy option but pride and bloody-mindedness made me stick there. I am glad I did now but this is the first time I can unreservedly say that. It's been a long hard slog and there were times I thought it would never end. 1
Author drifter777 Posted December 10, 2013 Author Posted December 10, 2013 With things like this I think it is easier to stay. To lie to yourself and say "oh they will change" or "oh it will never happen again". Or to be so down on yourself you think "If I leave her I will never find anyone else, so I better take back this cheater, etc.". The strongest thing a person can do is to realize how utterly disrespectful cheating is and that they deserve to be with someone who is actually truly in love with them. So no, LEAVING a cheater isn't always the easy way out. Unfortunately it is usually harder, and sadly I see it day after day..people who forgive cheaters merely out of fear they will be alone forever if they did not. I feel sorrow for these people because they have essentially settled, they have essentially said "I do not feel I deserve to share my life with someone for whom I share a special kind of love with, the kind of love that would prevent them from ever cheating on me". I know kids, etc. can confuse matters, but honestly? At the end of the day as long as you are good and loving parents? Most of the time they will be fine. It won't be easy, but then..these are the consequences of cheating. This is why I would never ever advise someone to stay in a marriage solely for the benefit of the kids. Where is the "Love" button
Author drifter777 Posted December 10, 2013 Author Posted December 10, 2013 ... Drifter, you are under no obligation to stay with your wife. Not at the time she cheated nor in any of the intervening years since that time. You sound unhappy--maybe it is time to finally do something about that. Perhaps you didn't read this part in my original post: The pain of doing this to my daughter is nearly unbearable, but providing my grandson with a stable, loving environment is more important to me than my own life. So I'm sacrificing my life for him - gladly. I am angry and frustrated with fate or karma or whatever but accept that this is why I'm here on earth right now. So now I'm in the same place I was at so many years ago. And again, it's fear that is keeping me down. The fear of my grandson living with my sick daughter is real and overwhelming. She is mad about the permanent custody thing, but she doesn't want him right now. Foster care for him? I would commit suicide before I let him be part of that system. There is no choice. Dejav Vu all over again. Today I have three choices - but there is no choice in my mind. The health and welfare of my grandson trumps all else. I discussed the situation I'm in now with my therapist yesterday and noted the eerie similarity between my situation back on d-day and now. So I wonder if this is pretty much how I felt all those years ago. Like back then there was no real decision; in my mind I had to stay for my son. That he was worth giving up my happiness for so just swallow hard and move forward. It's possible that my own mind trapped me in this way. My choice today is black and white. It wasn't so clear back then but I'm beginning to see that when I decided to stay I knew I was sacrificing my happiness for my son's welfare. I'm starting to forgive myself for that decision knowing that, in my mind, there was no decision. Of course there was, but not one that my mind would allow me to consider. I'm also starting to believe that there is a God as I am being shown an object lesson about something that tortures me to this day. This cannot be a mere coincidence.
lilmisscantbewrong Posted December 10, 2013 Posted December 10, 2013 Perhaps you didn't read this part in my original post: Today I have three choices - but there is no choice in my mind. The health and welfare of my grandson trumps all else. I discussed the situation I'm in now with my therapist yesterday and noted the eerie similarity between my situation back on d-day and now. So I wonder if this is pretty much how I felt all those years ago. Like back then there was no real decision; in my mind I had to stay for my son. That he was worth giving up my happiness for so just swallow hard and move forward. It's possible that my own mind trapped me in this way. My choice today is black and white. It wasn't so clear back then but I'm beginning to see that when I decided to stay I knew I was sacrificing my happiness for my son's welfare. I'm starting to forgive myself for that decision knowing that, in my mind, there was no decision. Of course there was, but not one that my mind would allow me to consider. I'm also starting to believe that there is a God as I am being shown an object lesson about something that tortures me to this day. This cannot be a mere coincidence. I understand your trying to make sense out of all of this, but what God is showing you an object lesson via some torture? I have been a part of religion all of my life and have been smacked up the side of the head with it and abused by it. I think I know less about God than I ever have, but the one thing I do know is that religion has nothing to do with God and I will never put myself in a "religious" institution ever again. I have been burned badly. I do, however, believe we have life lessons or soul lessons to learn and I can see why people believe in multiple lives and learning lessons in this life and choosing that path prior to coming to this earth. I am certain I was meant to learn about abandonment and that was my "soul" choice. So I get where you are coming from, I truly do. You have made some incredible sacrifices for your children and your grand child and, I believe, for your wife as well. I think your heart is making those choices. No one would fault you for walking away. But, Drifter, you are choosing to stay. What I would suggest (and I can take a major lesson from this as well and I'm trying) is to be in the present and happy in the present - whatever that is - not projecting backward and not projecting forward. This is a choice for you. You can choose to be happy within yourself. My heart just hurts when I read your posts. I hope you find peace.
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