Placing Blame

[experiencethedevine]

The anger was almost overwhelming for me...I have said before that I am glad I was not in the vicinity of ow on dday or I may have ended up in jail...not because she was ow but because of the crazy vile way she talked to me on top of everything else...it was a very dark place...but from time to time I still have dreams of knocking the biatch out...i hate feeling like that and having such anger...i try to think of puppies instead.

 

I hate affairs.

 

 

This I fully understand also krazikat.

 

 

The other woman my husband got involved with was a vile creature hell bent on having my husband all to herself no matter what the cost.

 

 

To this day I am still in awe of the fact that he got involved with her in the first place, but back then he was a 'sheep'. Not anymore.

 

 

I also used to take great delight in my imaginings of recompense with her. She was very fortunate not to have been close enough for confrontation. She thought me a lesser woman and unworthy of my husband. Foolish individual.

 

 

She still likes to poke us periodically, which is a sad indictment of her character and demise.

 

 

These days it simply amuses us that her sickness continues to drive her existence.

[experiencethedevine]

Actually this WAS true of my guy. He was in the marriage out of obligation only and when I came around we fought our feelings a lot. Finally, the decision was made that the a was the lesser of two evils. And sometimes they know they can't divorce, but are so tired of living life alone emotionally that affairs occur.

 

I get that this is not always the case, but in mine it certainly was.

 

 

Of course each circumstance is peculiar to the affair, and while I can appreciate that for you it was as you describe.

 

 

However, I would exchange the word 'can't' here, for 'won't.

 

 

I believe that is what he eventually did, divorce his wife, was it not? If I am mistaken my apologies.

[goodyblue]

Of course each circumstance is peculiar to the affair, and while I can appreciate that for you it was as you describe.

 

 

However, I would exchange the word 'can't' here, for 'won't.

 

 

I believe that is what he eventually did, divorce his wife, was it not? If I am mistaken my apologies.

 

Yes, he did divorce. But no matter what you or I think (I agree it was a won't), HE felt like he couldn't, at that time. He didn't feel strong enough emotionally. Once he worked up the courage, he did it. I'm not making excuses for him, just shedding a little light on his feelings in the matter. I am in agreement that we ALL have choices.

[cocorico]

Anyone involving themselves in an affair is certainly not putting themselves 'last', that's ridiculous.

 

 

As for protecting the children, are they protected against the crisis of a dday? No. They are always the ones who end up persecuted by their 'trained and dutiful' parent's lack of forethought .............

 

 

So much rot about staying with the wife out of duty! He stays because the alternative is not attractive enough to make him leave.

 

Often, the A is the first small thing they have done to put their own needs first during the entire M. And they consider it the lesser "evil" to inflict on their kids than breaking up the family - particularly if there have been prior separations (as in my H's case) which traumatised the kids deeply. The A is their small hope of surviving the M they feel trapped in until he kids are old enough to leave home.

 

And no, the kids do not always land up "persecuted". I was not "persecuted" by my father's love for another woman. My H's kids felt empowered by the way he handled his A and the split.

 

And yes, often the staying with he BW is out of duty - which is why those MM leave as soon as the kids are old enough.

[cocorico]

 

BTW...I am always quite bemused when people use the excuse " we weren't looking for an affair, it just sort of happened", and then they go on to discuss how the marriage was bad. It's as if someone should extrapolate from that situation that the ws had no choice but to cheat if they were to find happiness.

 

So on the one hand, the person isn't looking for an affair, they may even be trying to avoid one but somehow they slide into one without realizing it, and on the other hand, their marriage is bad (usually 99% of the time it's said to be the fault of the bs) so they have no choice but to cheat if they want to be happy.

 

Maybe I am too dense to understand, but which is it? Seems to me that if the marriage was bad, then the person may have been a lot more open to an affair than they are willing to admit, and if they weren't very open to an affair then perhaps the marriage isn't as bad as they ( and the om/ow) would like to believe.

 

 

There is a world of difference between "looking for an A" and finding oneself open to an A when the circumstances and "right" person present themselves.

 

And "not looking for an A" does not require a good M. Many people in bad Ms are not looking for an A, or even open to an A. That does not make their m good. There are many BS on these boards who claim the M was bad before the WS had an A, yet the BS was not looking for an A nor open to one. Does this mean that the M for the BS was actually good, and the BS here who claim otherwise were deluding themselves? I'd guess that if a BS admits that their M before the WS's A sucked, they're being honest and not making it up.

 

Also, it is not as though someone in a bad m is looking for an A from day 1 of the M, typically. Usually they grit their teeth and buy into the discourse of m being hard work! and try their hardest to make it work! and only over time do hey lose hope and recognise that despite their best efforts! their M sucks. And even then, the move to being receptive to an A can take a lot more, either push (the last straw that breaks the camel's back) or pull (the person of their dreams walks into their life), or a combination of both.

 

I'm not sure why that is hard to understand. People are remarkably resilient and cling to hope even in desperate times. No one *wants* to believe they are trapped in a M from hell, so most deny it until either the facts are incontrovertible and, in desperation, they "self medicate" with an A, or they fall in love and find themselves in a parallel R which lacks the horror of the m! showing by cruel contrast just how bad (and not "normal") the M is.

[Zenstudent]

Often, the A is the first small thing they have done to put their own needs first during the entire M. And they consider it the lesser "evil" to inflict on their kids than breaking up the family - particularly if there have been prior separations (as in my H's case) which traumatised the kids deeply. The A is their small hope of surviving the M they feel trapped in until he kids are old enough to leave home.

 

And no, the kids do not always land up "persecuted". I was not "persecuted" by my father's love for another woman. My H's kids felt empowered by the way he handled his A

Did you just call a full fledged affair a "small thing"?

[experiencethedevine]

Did you just call a full fledged affair a "small thing"?

 

 

I believe it looks that way............................

[rumbleseat]

There is a world of difference between "looking for an A" and finding oneself open to an A when the circumstances and "right" person present themselves.

 

And "not looking for an A" does not require a good M. Many people in bad Ms are not looking for an A, or even open to an A. That does not make their m good. There are many BS on these boards who claim the M was bad before the WS had an A, yet the BS was not looking for an A nor open to one. Does this mean that the M for the BS was actually good, and the BS here who claim otherwise were deluding themselves? I'd guess that if a BS admits that their M before the WS's A sucked, they're being honest and not making it up.

 

Also, it is not as though someone in a bad m is looking for an A from day 1 of the M, typically. Usually they grit their teeth and buy into the discourse of m being hard work! and try their hardest to make it work! and only over time do hey lose hope and recognise that despite their best efforts! their M sucks. And even then, the move to being receptive to an A can take a lot more, either push (the last straw that breaks the camel's back) or pull (the person of their dreams walks into their life), or a combination of both.

 

I'm not sure why that is hard to understand. People are remarkably resilient and cling to hope even in desperate times. No one *wants* to believe they are trapped in a M from hell, so most deny it until either the facts are incontrovertible and, in desperation, they "self medicate" with an A, or they fall in love and find themselves in a parallel R which lacks the horror of the m! showing by cruel contrast just how bad (and not "normal") the M is.

 

 

I'm not sure why it is so hard for some to understand that a person chooses whatever course of action their life takes. Someone who gets into an affair does so by choice,asno one can force someone to do soemthbb they do not want to do.

 

A person stays in a marriage because they want to, they leave because they want to ( or because their bs tells them to leave). If a mm or mw is so worried about the affect a divorce will have on their children then why do they do something that they can reasonably expect could lead to divorce if they are caught? (Unless, of course, they really have no intention of leaving the marriage).

 

I do find it interesting that many bs and many om/ow have very different views on honesty and excuses.

[experiencethedevine]

I'm not sure why it is so hard for some to understand that a person chooses whatever course of action their life takes. Someone who gets into an affair does so by choice,asno one can force someone to do soemthbb they do not want to do.

 

A person stays in a marriage because they want to, they leave because they want to ( or because their bs tells them to leave). If a mm or mw is so worried about the affect a divorce will have on their children then why do they do something that they can reasonably expect could lead to divorce if they are caught? (Unless, of course, they really have no intention of leaving the marriage).

 

I do find it interesting that many bs and many om/ow have very different views on honesty and excuses.

 

 

 

 

Interesting indeed...............

 

 

 

 

Quite. Again, it boils down to the choices we make.

 

 

As has been said also, if you play with fire you get burned.

 

 

If one chooses to dishonour their marital vows by being unfaithful, then they must accept the responsibility of involving their spouse in an open marriage without their consent or knowledge.

 

 

This too has been said many times.

 

 

cocorico stated this:

 

 

'People are remarkably resilient and cling to hope even in desperate times.'

 

 

Referring to the spouse. Exactly what I would say about the other woman who inserted herself into our marriage uninvited by me.

 

 

She was still clinging 'desperately to hope' after working so hard to make her married man leave his wife in the full knowledge that was never his intention and finding herself discarded as easily as the contents of her dustbin.

 

 

Did I blame her entirely? No. she took equal part in blame. My husband was a complete twat at the time he got involved with such an insidious and nasty individual, led by his dick as many are. It certainly came back to haunt him when the whole sordid business came out.

 

 

Did she blame me for being the reason why my husband cast her aside so rapidly? Oh most definitely. And then some. She had lost all control of the situation and turned into the gargoyle that lay beneath her superficial scales. Most unpleasant.

[cocorico]

Did you just call a full fledged affair a "small thing"?

 

In the scale of things they have sacrificed up to that point, yes, it is.

[cocorico]

I'm not sure why it is so hard for some to understand that a person chooses whatever course of action their life takes. Someone who gets into an affair does so by choice,asno one can force someone to do soemthbb they do not want to do.

 

A person stays in a marriage because they want to, they leave because they want to ( or because their bs tells them to leave). If a mm or mw is so worried about the affect a divorce will have on their children then why do they do something that they can reasonably expect could lead to divorce if they are caught? (Unless, of course, they really have no intention of leaving the marriage).

 

I do find it interesting that many bs and many om/ow have very different views on honesty and excuses.

 

Yes, they choose. They choose to put their kids' happiness ahead of their own by staying in the M, even if they need to "self-medicate" (the A) in order to be able to do so. Yes, they choose to have the A, in order to be able to stand being M.

 

And yes, they do understand that the A may lead to a D anyway - but it may also stave off the inevitable D for long enough to allow the kids to reach an age where it will no longer be that traumatic for them.

[rumbleseat]

Yes, they choose. They choose to put their kids' happiness ahead of their own by staying in the M, even if they need to "self-medicate" (the A) in order to be able to do so. Yes, they choose to have the A, in order to be able to stand being M.

 

And yes, they do understand that the A may lead to a D anyway - but it may also stave off the inevitable D for long enough to allow the kids to reach an age where it will no longer be that traumatic for them.

 

So let me get this straight. They only stay to protect their children from the harm of divorce, even though the marriage from hell is likely causing the children great psychological damage, then they go and do something that they know has a very good chance of leading to an extremely acromonious divorce, thus hurting the children even more?

 

Yep, that makes perfect sense to me! the logic of some people never ceases to amaze and amuse me.

 

Maybe, if instead of blaming everyone else for their cr@ppy choices, these poor beleaguered ws got their proverbial sh$t together and left the marriage altogether, things would be better.

 

 

But....

 

Who needs to end a terrible marriage by getting a divorce? Who cares if staying together subjects the kids to the untold emotional trauma of watching their parents fight all the time while mom is psychologically abusive to dad? Who cares is getting a divorce and getting counsleing for the kids might save them from growing up to believe that infidelity in perfectly fine and acceptable and grow up thinking that this is how all relationships are?

 

After all, one can always take the easy way out and have an affair! Who care who it hurts!

 

Funny how the same people who spout the line that " he had to stay married for the children and had no choice but to cheat since his wife was such a witch" are the same people who will then go on about how the adult children needed counselling to deal with the after affects of their parents cr@ppy marriage.

[janedoe67]

divine and rumbleseat, this thought process is impossible for you to understand because YOU have never CHOSEN to betray a marriage. I have, so I get it. See....it is NECESSARY to blame the BS and cloak the A in justification. Otherwise the WS and AP have to actually look in a mirror and admit what they are doing is....

 

 

wait for it....

 

wrong.

 

And there are people who simply cannot abide being wrong. They of course have no problem with DOING wrong. They just cannot admit BEING wrong.

 

I know because I am nauseated to admit I was once one of them.

[rumbleseat]

divine and rumbleseat, this thought process is impossible for you to understand because YOU have never CHOSEN to betray a marriage. I have, so I get it. See....it is NECESSARY to blame the BS and cloak the A in justification. Otherwise the WS and AP have to actually look in a mirror and admit what they are doing is....

 

 

wait for it....

 

wrong.

 

And there are people who simply cannot abide being wrong. They of course have no problem with DOING wrong. They just cannot admit BEING wrong.

 

I know because I am nauseated to admit I was once one of them.

 

Don't be so hard on yourself.

 

You are someone who was able to see that you used poor judgement and you have been willing to put in the hard work that it took to learn and grow. Not everyone can do that. You seem to have a very strong personal character and have not let this turn you into so,etching you are not.

 

Some will continue to blame others for their choices. You have not done that.

 

I hope you have found a way to forgive yourself.

[rumbleseat]

No, you just grew up to believe that affairs are a "small thing" and engage in one yourself--exactly what every parent wants for their children.

 

When I was very young, my mother made a large wall picture that contained the piece " children learn what they live" and she kept to that as much as she could. This is the text that it contained ( along with the the year and credit to the original author)

 

"Children Learn What They Live (1959)

 

If a child lives with criticism, he learns to condemn . . .

If a child lives with hostility, he learns to fight . . .

If a child lives with fear, he learns to be apprehensive . . .

If a child lives with pity, he learns to feel sorry for himself . . .

If a child lives with ridicule, he learns to be shy . . .

If a child lives with jealousy, he learns to feel guilt . . .

 

BUT

 

If a child lives with tolerance, he learns to be patient . . .

If a child lives with encouragement, he learns to be confident . . .

If a child lives with praise , he learns to be appreciative . . .

If a child lives with acceptance, he learns to love . . .

If a child lives with honesty, he learns what truth is . . .

If a child lives with fairness, he learns justice . . .

If a child lives with security, he learns to have faith in himself and those about him . . .

If a child lives with friendlienss(sic), he learns the world is a nice place in which to live . . .

 

 

WITH WHAT IS YOUR CHILD LIVING?

 

Dorothy L. Law"

 

Seems to hold true. Those who are raised to believe that honesty and truth are important grow up to learn to value those traits. Those who grow up seeing that dishonesty and other negative traits are acceptable learn those things too.

 

Justifying an affair by saying that "he didn't want to divorce because he didn't want to break up the marriage because it would hurt the children, but things are terrible so he has no choice to cheat" just doesn't make sense to me.

 

Some people like to paint the bs as a terrible person because they believe it rationalizes and justifies the actions of the ws, but the reality is that all it does it are wonder wonder why, if things were so bad at home, and they were such a terrible parent, then why did they ever stay and keep their kids in such an unhappy home.

[ComingInHot]

In coco ' s stitch it very well could be.

 

However and I'm hoping everyone here can help me understand. .. I'm reading if the H stays then it's for the kids and NOT His Wife and is the Martyr because he only "truly" loves OW BUT if mm leaves for ow, it's because His Wife is just too evil to live with and the ow rescues mm and in time will win the children over as well because wife is bad bad bad.

 

I guess in rare instances the above could be true (spineless man either way though) but for, at least me, this scenario is as far from the truth as East is from the West.**

 

I can see though how exOW would choose to believe things so skewed so she could get through the days and nights. It was aaaaallllll my fault in her eyes, first the he cheated with her second when he threw her under ye Ole bus and third when he "couldn't" D me (even though I kicked him out and moved far away...)

[experiencethedevine]

divine and rumbleseat, this thought process is impossible for you to understand because YOU have never CHOSEN to betray a marriage. I have, so I get it. See....it is NECESSARY to blame the BS and cloak the A in justification. Otherwise the WS and AP have to actually look in a mirror and admit what they are doing is....

 

 

wait for it....

 

wrong.

 

And there are people who simply cannot abide being wrong. They of course have no problem with DOING wrong. They just cannot admit BEING wrong.

 

I know because I am nauseated to admit I was once one of them.

 

 

Jane, I fully appreciate not being immediately connected to the appropriate level of understanding that comes with shared experience, and of course you're right in that instance.

 

 

However, I would not say it is 'impossible' for me personally to have any understanding because I have not experienced it in the same way that you have, more that my understanding is what you might term 'second hand'.

 

 

I am of course, fully aware that in order for the betrayer to manage the affair situation alongside his/her marriage, it is essential that those feelings of guilt/dishonesty/violation be suppressed and this is where the brain is very good at adapting and ensuring the right chemicals from the right areas of it protect the sanity of the wayward spouse in the process of the deviance.

 

 

As you rightly state, it is absolutely necessary to justify the affair by laying blame on the spouse/marriage or the affair would never happen in the first place. Those brain chemicals would remain in equilibrium.

 

 

The affair raises dopamine levels which rush the limbic system in the same way drugs do, ergo the similarity of addiction.

 

 

 

 

Your depth of understanding through your own experience supercedes my own in this respect naturally because yours is direct and mine is gained through external sources.

[ladydesigner]

She was still clinging 'desperately to hope' after working so hard to make her married man leave his wife in the full knowledge that was never his intention and finding herself discarded as easily as the contents of her dustbin.

 

The MOW in our situation still clings to hope as well that our M still suffers and is bad and that they might still have a chance.

 

I am no longer clinging to an unhealthy M. I am living my life to the fullest with great new friends and a new support system. Should my WH have another A I am 100% prepared to leave. I will never 'desperately' cling to my M EVER again. It was one of the biggest lessons I learned from my WH's A's.

[krazikat]

Yes, they choose. They choose to put their kids' happiness ahead of their own by staying in the M, even if they need to "self-medicate" (the A) in order to be able to do so. Yes, they choose to have the A, in order to be able to stand being M.

 

And yes, they do understand that the A may lead to a D anyway - but it may also stave off the inevitable D for long enough to allow the kids to reach an age where it will no longer be that traumatic for them.

 

Coco, this sounds Nuts so if you could clarify this for me:

 

If the M is so dang bad, and MM is only staying because he is putting everyone ahead of himself...why play pretend with the wife? Why continue to tell crazy wife how much he loves her? Why continue to make love to this evil wife? Why buy the dreadful wife gifts?

 

Why not just have an open marriage?

[goodyblue]

There is a world of difference between "looking for an A" and finding oneself open to an A when the circumstances and "right" person present themselves.

 

And "not looking for an A" does not require a good M. Many people in bad Ms are not looking for an A, or even open to an A. That does not make their m good. There are many BS on these boards who claim the M was bad before the WS had an A, yet the BS was not looking for an A nor open to one. Does this mean that the M for the BS was actually good, and the BS here who claim otherwise were deluding themselves? I'd guess that if a BS admits that their M before the WS's A sucked, they're being honest and not making it up.

 

Also, it is not as though someone in a bad m is looking for an A from day 1 of the M, typically. Usually they grit their teeth and buy into the discourse of m being hard work! and try their hardest to make it work! and only over time do hey lose hope and recognise that despite their best efforts! their M sucks. And even then, the move to being receptive to an A can take a lot more, either push (the last straw that breaks the camel's back) or pull (the person of their dreams walks into their life), or a combination of both. This

 

I'm not sure why that is hard to understand. People are remarkably resilient and cling to hope even in desperate times. No one *wants* to believe they are trapped in a M from hell, so most deny it until either the facts are incontrovertible and, in desperation, they "self medicate" with an A, or they fall in love and find themselves in a parallel R which lacks the horror of the m! showing by cruel contrast just how bad (and not "normal") the M is.

 

.

 

This is very much my situation. I guess people will take this the wrong way, because it often is, but I am proud of my guy having the courage to choose his own happiness, FINALLY. Stbxw has been unhappy since he left. HE was unhappy for 30 years

[goodyblue]

Coco, this sounds Nuts so if you could clarify this for me:

 

If the M is so dang bad, and MM is only staying because he is putting everyone ahead of himself...why play pretend with the wife? Why continue to tell crazy wife how much he loves her? Why continue to make love to this evil wife? Why buy the dreadful wife gifts?

 

Why not just have an open marriage?

 

In some marriages, one person is perfectly happy with the status quo. The other is not happy. The other keeps telling the happy one that things must change, that things are not good for them. The happy one doesn't listen because they are happy and don't see the problem. My guy is a pleaser. He did all he could for a very long time to try and make the happy one happier in the hope that there would be a payoff. Lol. He bought her new leather couches two weeks before he left. He doesn't want her miserable, he just wants some happiness of his own.

 

She's made some major mistakes now though, because he was more than happy to continue to keep her in her lifestyle. SInce she's become so horrible, he has stopped helping her. He's decided to give her exactly half. That's it. And since the legal separation, anything he earns is his. So, she's getting a lot less than she would have if she had just stopped being so horrible.

[goodyblue]

Interesting indeed...............

 

 

 

 

Quite. Again, it boils down to the choices we make.

 

 

As has been said also, if you play with fire you get burned.

 

 

If one chooses to dishonour their marital vows by being unfaithful, then they must accept the responsibility of involving their spouse in an open marriage without their consent or knowledge.

 

 

This too has been said many times.

 

 

cocorico stated this:

 

 

'People are remarkably resilient and cling to hope even in desperate times.'

 

 

Referring to the spouse. Exactly what I would say about the other woman who inserted herself into our marriage uninvited by me.

 

 

She was still clinging 'desperately to hope' after working so hard to make her married man leave his wife in the full knowledge that was never his intention and finding herself discarded as easily as the contents of her dustbin.

 

 

Did I blame her entirely? No. she took equal part in blame. My husband was a complete twat at the time he got involved with such an insidious and nasty individual, led by his dick as many are. It certainly came back to haunt him when the whole sordid business came out.

 

 

Did she blame me for being the reason why my husband cast her aside so rapidly? Oh most definitely. And then some. She had lost all control of the situation and turned into the gargoyle that lay beneath her superficial scales. Most unpleasant.

 

Do you feel an abused person stays in a relationship because they choose it? Because they secretly like being abused? That it makes them happy?

[experiencethedevine]

Do you feel an abused person stays in a relationship because they choose it? Because they secretly like being abused? That it makes them happy?

 

 

 

I have two women's refuges. One I have owned for 24 years, and the other house now fully up and running after todays building inspection.

 

 

I see abuse in all its shades of disgust and extent every day. Real abuse. The sort that makes women fear for their lives and that of their children, and some of those women have that fear as the result of the circumstances of an affair. Some do not understand the nuances of their situation until it is highlighted either through the systems set in place in our health service or they end up on the street or worse.........

 

 

In order to answer your question with all its bare bones, it would make you vomit.

 

 

the likelihood of you having any real understanding of what abuse is (both mentally and physically) would be very wide of the mark................

Edited January 6, 2014 by experiencethedevine

[goodyblue]

I think you'd be surprised at what I know, having lived it.

[ladydesigner]

In some marriages, one person is perfectly happy with the status quo. The other is not happy. The other keeps telling the happy one that things must change, that things are not good for them. The happy one doesn't listen because they are happy and don't see the problem. My guy is a pleaser. He did all he could for a very long time to try and make the happy one happier in the hope that there would be a payoff. Lol. He bought her new leather couches two weeks before he left. He doesn't want her miserable, he just wants some happiness of his own.

 

She's made some major mistakes now though, because he was more than happy to continue to keep her in her lifestyle. SInce she's become so horrible, he has stopped helping her. He's decided to give her exactly half. That's it. And since the legal separation, anything he earns is his. So, she's getting a lot less than she would have if she had just stopped being so horrible.

 

 

Eh I'm sure the BS will be fine once she is well over her cheating ex. Once you realize that the A has nothing to do with you but has everything to do with the one who cheats a healthier perspective takes place. At least it did for me. I realize all of our situations are different. I just think A's are the wrong way to go about solving problems within a M. Who cares if his BS has made major mistakes, she'll find her way.