Placing Blame

[Arieswoman]

Goodyblue,

I don't think we are on the same page here.

 

You say,

 

You believe you, or any BS, had nothing to do with their partner straying. Let's hear then how there was nothing lacking. Nothing leading up to the affair. That there was not obviously an end to open communication. You KNOW there was. So fine. The affair was nothing to do with you, but what led up to it certainly was.

Let me put my point of view another way.

 

I am in healthcare and run my own practice. When a new client attends for an appointment we ask that they come 10 mins early to complete a form. On the form we ask for the reason for their attendance and any problems they have.

They are then taken through into the surgery and I, or one of my associates will go through the form with them and discuss what the presenting problem is and what the alternatives for treatment are. We also discuss what their expectations are and the imput that they must give for a sucessful resolution.

If we feel that the problem is beyond the remit of the practice, or they need imput from another health care professional, then we will advise them accordingly, and refer if necessary.

We give them advice leaflets and a contact number should they wish to discuss anything with us further. We give them every opportunity to help us to help them.

 

We have had a few occasions when clients have rung up disgruntled because "XYZ is no better". We pull out the case notes and say "ah-ha, so you have XYZ, you didn't mention that, if it is a problem, why didn't you tell us about that in the first instance? "

 

As a healthcare professional I am not a mind reader.

 

As a wife I am not a mind reader.

 

If someone chooses to hide something from me how would I know that was happening?

 

If someone chooses to only communicate with me on certain issues and not others, then I have no control over that, neither am I responsible for other peoples' choices.

[goodyblue]

Goodyblue,

I don't think we are on the same page here.

 

You say,

 

Let me put my point of view another way.

 

I am in healthcare and run my own practice. When a new client attends for an appointment we ask that they come 10 mins early to complete a form. On the form we ask for the reason for their attendance and any problems they have.

They are then taken through into the surgery and I, or one of my associates will go through the form with them and discuss what the presenting problem is and what the alternatives for treatment are. We also discuss what their expectations are and the imput that they must give for a sucessful resolution.

If we feel that the problem is beyond the remit of the practice, or they need imput from another health care professional, then we will advise them accordingly, and refer if necessary.

We give them advice leaflets and a contact number should they wish to discuss anything with us further. We give them every opportunity to help us to help them.

 

We have had a few occasions when clients have rung up disgruntled because "XYZ is no better". We pull out the case notes and say "ah-ha, so you have XYZ, you didn't mention that, if it is a problem, why didn't you tell us about that in the first instance? "

 

As a healthcare professional I am not a mind reader.

 

As a wife I am not a mind reader.

 

If someone chooses to hide something from me how would I know that was happening?

 

If someone chooses to only communicate with me on certain issues and not others, then I have no control over that, neither am I responsible for other peoples' choices.

 

I guess I am just more in tune with my guy than the women on this forum who know nothing. I would know SOMETHING was wrong way before an affair took place.

[waterwoman]

Our marriage wasn't good. I will willingly admit it. Why? Loads of reasons. 50% him, 50% me? Maybe. In the end it doesn't matter. Whatever was wrong the a made it 100% worse and that was all on him.

 

Since d-day we have both tried to address things that should have been addressed before. It would have been better to address them when we weren't standing in a disaster zone but hey...thems the breaks. We are only human and there is no manual for marriage.

 

But I will tell you one thing goody, if h had once blamed me like you are trying to do, made me responsible for the pain and darkness I was in, told me it was my fault that he stabbed me to the heart, I couldn't have done this. It only worked because he was totally remorseful, took all the blame on himself, told me again that I did nothing to deserve it, that I was able to move on and participate in the hard work we needed to do.

[Arieswoman]

Goody blue,

You said

 

I guess I am just more in tune with my guy than the women on this forum who know nothing. I would know SOMETHING was wrong way before an affair took place.

 

Then please enlighten us BS's who were unaware.

 

I look forward to learning from your experience(s).

[goodyblue]

This has not been my experience, nor has it been the experience of those I know who have been part of an A. The unhappiness creates a void, and somehow, for differing reasons, the OW fills the void.

 

I know that in my situation, my guy was incredibly unhappy. I know I gave him the courage to leave. I know several people like this. I am not the only one.

 

I'm not saying BS is responsible for the affair. I'm simply saying there were problems beforehand that could have been addressed that may have made the affair unnecessary.

[experiencethedevine]

I guess I am just more in tune with my guy than the women on this forum who know nothing. I would know SOMETHING was wrong way before an affair took place.

 

 

Oh my.................. then my lofty cherub, I do sincerely hope you NEVER fall from grace..........................

[Arieswoman]

Three laurels,

 

You said,

 

You argue that affairs are products of a breakdown in the marriage. I

disagree. Based on my qualitative and empirical research on affairs and psychology, I would argue that most affairs actually cause the breakdown of a marriage. Although it doesn't apply to all cases, the "typical" affair scenario goes like this:

 

With some exceptions, people don't just set out with the intention of having an affair. Rather, an affair occurs when people rationalize crossing small, "harmless" boundaries (ex: "innocent flirting", "just one kiss") that make it easier to later compromise slightly larger ones. Common reasons for crossing these common boundaries are coming to terms with one's own mortality and ability to be attractive to others, yearning for the spark and desire that disappears from relationships once daily life and routine take over, and even just feeling chemistry with another person.

 

The end result is a downward spiral. The more the person rationalizes their behavior, the more it escalates. The AP becomes a source of happiness, emotional support, and often a confidant for the WS. The AP is always willing to listen to the WS and provide them with emotional support. The time constraints on the WS and AP's time together means the "honeymoon phase" of the relationship is in full force. The time not spent together is spent thinking of and yearning for the other, which fuels the intensity of their interactions when they can finally be together. The secrecy and taste of forbidden fruit, of course, enhances the intensity as well.

 

So what you are saying is that the WS has a problem with reality?

 

This is escapism, away from the humdrum of life and the dirty nappies, taking the kids on the school run, the garbage that needs to be taken out, doing the laundry, entertaining in-laws and all the stuff that is boring and repetitive, like cleaning the bathroom.

 

My exH was having a fine old time taking his OW to hotels on my credit card and buying her jewellery. But when the spagetti hit the fan and I divorced him the situation changed. She got pregnant and he had to knuckle down to his responsibilities. Not so much fun eh?

 

If you check out my other posts you will see how karma came a calling.

[goodyblue]

I am helping out with a colleague's project that has interviews with over 150 WS and growing. The dynamics of affairs are not my primary research interest nor will I be publishing on them (not my field), but the data supports my argument. The data is also consistent with previous academic studies. My conclusions may change once we get more interviews and run data analyses, but my argument reflects a clear pattern in the current body of interviews.

 

Psht. Affairs are secret in nature and you will never get a true taste of what goes on. When people cite studies, I laugh.

[sweet_pea]

This has not been my experience, nor has it been the experience of those I know who have been part of an A. The unhappiness creates a void, and somehow, for differing reasons, the OW fills the void.

 

I know that in my situation, my guy was incredibly unhappy. I know I gave him the courage to leave. I know several people like this. I am not the only one.

 

I'm not saying BS is responsible for the affair. I'm simply saying there were problems beforehand that could have been addressed that may have made the affair unnecessary.

 

Right, and what happens when the BS tries to address these issues and the WS is standoffish, cold and unwilling? Then that's still BS' fault? I don't think you understand that many WS leading up to and during the affair are conflict avoiders. Instead of confiding in BS' their issues, instead of facing their problems and trying to solve them with the BS, they choose to confide in someone else. They choose to tell someone else their problems, leaving the BS in the dark and guessing or trying to figure out the problems. It takes TWO people to solve marital problems. Not just the BS. The BS was not the only one who let the marriage "break down." Goodness. People act like the BS is the only who messed up the marriage, and that the BS should be the only one fixing it.

[goodyblue]

Right, and what happens when the BS tries to address these issues and the WS is standoffish, cold and unwilling? Then that's still BS' fault? I don't think you understand that many WS leading up to and during the affair are conflict avoiders. Instead of confiding in BS' their issues, instead of facing their problems and trying to solve them with the BS, they choose to confide in someone else. They choose to tell someone else their problems, leaving the BS in the dark and guessing or trying to figure out the problems. It takes TWO people to solve marital problems. Not just the BS. The BS was not the only one who let the marriage "break down." Goodness. People act like the BS is the only who messed up the marriage, and that the BS should be the only one fixing it.

 

SweetPea,

 

You're agreeing with me without even knowing it. I certainly do NOT think it is all the BS's fault. What I am saying is that BS's AND MM/MW are responsible for what happens in the M before the A takes place. I'm not saying the MM/MW is right in having an affair. They aren't. I'm simply saying that the BS DOES play a part in WHY the affair took place. Like it or not, it's true.

[Arieswoman]

Right, and what happens when the BS tries to address these issues and the WS is standoffish, cold and unwilling? Then that's still BS' fault? I don't think you understand that many WS leading up to and during the affair are conflict avoiders. Instead of confiding in BS' their issues, instead of facing their problems and trying to solve them with the BS, they choose to confide in someone else. They choose to tell someone else their problems, leaving the BS in the dark and guessing or trying to figure out the problems. It takes TWO people to solve marital problems. Not just the BS. The BS was not the only one who let the marriage "break down." Goodness. People act like the BS is the only who messed up the marriage, and that the BS should be the only one fixing it

 

Well said.

 

As a BS who loved my husband and knowing many other BS's who felt the same way, I can categorically say that we would have done almost anything to rectify the situation and save our marriages if we had been given the chance to do so.

 

However that didn't happen.

 

Let's spell it out.

 

Whatever problems there were in the marriage (real or imagined) it did not excuse him having sex with someone else. Full stop.

[TheBladeRunner]

I placed the blame on the XW and the OM; OM knew she was married and pursued. Once he got what he wanted he broke it off.....said he couldn't be in a relationship with anyone because he was molested as a child. What a great reason to break up with anyone, huh?

 

These days I just blame myself, her A was all my fault.....sure:rolleyes:

[experiencethedevine]

Psht. Affairs are secret in nature and you will never get a true taste of what goes on. When people cite studies, I laugh.

 

 

I would wager that the kind of individual who thinks hours, days, weeks and years spent on studies to 'prove' a thesis is amusing could only possibly be someone who is ignorant of what such dedicated and diligent research actually takes, displaying a complete lack of understanding.

 

 

The usual reason for people's discomfort with scientific study and data collection is that it comes a little close too the knuckle for some to stomach many have found, and can make the individual most reluctant to acknowledge the validity and reliability of evidence that is contrary to their beliefs.

[experiencethedevine]

To reiterate laurels earlier post, an affair is, in fact, an event that occurs as a consequence of poor boundaries in both the perpetrator and the recipient. (unless of course the recipient is unaware that the person is married).

 

 

This confirms without question that blame lies firmly (surprise surprise) at the feet of the person who steps outside the marriage to 'resolve' issues of their 'unhappiness'.

 

 

Poor boundaries..............tisk tisk........who'd have thought.....................

[goodyblue]

I would wager that the kind of individual who thinks hours, days, weeks and years spent on studies to 'prove' a thesis is amusing could only possibly be someone who is ignorant of what such dedicated and diligent research actually takes, displaying a complete lack of understanding.

 

 

The usual reason for people's discomfort with scientific study and data collection is that it comes a little close too the knuckle for some to stomach many have found, and can make the individual most reluctant to acknowledge the validity and reliability of evidence that is contrary to their beliefs.

 

My point was that affairs are secretive and you are never going to get clear and honest answers.

 

As an aside, just because you think you are so bright, take an English class. There are THREE dots in an ellipsis, not seven, not ten, not five. Also, there is no 'I' in tsk.

 

I do not display a lack of understanding, YOU simply show only one side of the equation.

 

Good evening.

Edited January 1, 2014 by goodyblue

[Journee]

We all play the blame game. Hasn't gotten me anywhere though. What did was really looking deep into myself. Evaluating myself and all that had surrounded me from a young age on. It became pretty clear why I was in so much pain and why it had slowly drowned me. Why my H and I had both been so destructive with one another. I'm ashamed of my behavior but glad to have learned many of these lessons so early in life. So early on in our M and our children's lives that things can be put back on track. That is where my energy is going. Not blaming or self loathing. I did enough of that.

 

H and I were separated. I was being a brat. Things were uncertain. Our marriage was pretty well non existent. By name and on paper only. Living at two different residences. Resentments building with each additional day and month of the separation.

 

When it all came crashing down. We could had both turned away from the other again and just kept living separate lives. Continued living as single individuals. I could had just had our second child and raised her as we were the oldest. Perfecting our coparenting relationship. Instead we chose one another. Not out of obligation or guilt. Not out of fear or desperation. There were no ultimatums or threats. Just one question for each to answer. "Where do we go from here?" The easy thing would be to remain separated and finalize the divorce. The more difficult and rewarding thing to do was grow the hell up and live as a married couple. In all aspects of life.

 

We both went through very difficult times emotionally in facing ourselves. I'm a better woman as a result of losing it all. He is a better man everyday.

 

We are not unique or immune to the human condition. We faced some ugly experiences. We ran away from others. Learning lessons the whole way as individuals in order to be better members of a couple.

 

Blame? Not right now. We are busy living.

[experiencethedevine]

My point was that affairs are secretive and you are never going to get clear and honest answers.

 

As an aside, just because you think you are so bright, take an English class. There are THREE dots in an ellipsis, not seven, not ten, not five. Also, there is no 'I' in tsk.

 

I do not display a lack of understanding, YOU simply show only one side of the equation.

 

Good evening.

 

 

English is my first language (I have a reasonable command of 5 others) but thankyou for input on my 'grammar'.

 

 

Evidently I must be showing the side of the equation that irks you most...........................................

[cocorico]

Right, and what happens when the BS tries to address these issues and the WS is standoffish, cold and unwilling? Then that's still BS' fault? I don't think you understand that many WS leading up to and during the affair are conflict avoiders. Instead of confiding in BS' their issues, instead of facing their problems and trying to solve them with the BS, they choose to confide in someone else. They choose to tell someone else their problems, leaving the BS in the dark and guessing or trying to figure out the problems. It takes TWO people to solve marital problems. Not just the BS. The BS was not the only one who let the marriage "break down." Goodness. People act like the BS is the only who messed up the marriage, and that the BS should be the only one fixing it.

 

Sometimes, it's the other way round. The WS who has been trying for decades to address issues while a BS remains standoffish, cold and unwilling - perfectly happy in he M because all of *their* needs are being met! and unwilling / unable to understand that, simply because *they* are happy, their spouse might not be. And so, after decades of trying, and being slapped down, the WS learns that the BS simply does not want to fix the m because the consider the m just fine as it is.

 

Sometimes the WS leaves the M and the new R with the fAP has none of the problems that the M between the BS and WS had, but instead, those problem continue in every new R that the BS tries.

 

Sometimes, the BS continues to blame the fAP years after the WS left, for the R problems the BS continues to drag into new Rs, rather than spending some constructive time in reflection and self-discovery. Sometimes those BS are doomed to a life of misery because they continue to drink the Kool-Aid and insist that the BS can never be responsible for any problems in the R because, after all, the WS "cheated" and so that gives the BS a lifelong Get-out-of-Jail-free card.

 

Sure, let them use it, if it helps them feel better. But dogmatic insisting that the BS can never bear any responsibility isn't going to help those BS whose historic and continuing behaviour led to the initial problems to salvage their lives and have a shot at happiness in the future.

[Arieswoman]

cocorico,

you said

 

Sometimes, it's the other way round. The WS who has been trying for decades to address issues while a BS remains standoffish, cold and unwilling - perfectly happy in he M because all of *their* needs are being met! and unwilling / unable to understand that, simply because *they* are happy, their spouse might not be. And so, after decades of trying, and being slapped down, the WS learns that the BS simply does not want to fix the m because the consider the m just fine as it is.

 

If this is the case - and I don't doubt it could happen - why would the WS stay in such a situation? Why would they choose to be unhappy for so long?

 

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[Morgoth]

cocorico,

you said

 

 

 

If this is the case - and I don't doubt it could happen - why would the WS stay in such a situation? Why would they choose to be unhappy for so long?

 

Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

This is easy, why would we stay? Its either stay or give up everything you worked, blow up your family and start over, and in my case give give her half. So you could say some WS have golden hand cuffs on. It is what marriage is all about these days.

[sweet_pea]

Sometimes, it's the other way round. The WS who has been trying for decades to address issues while a BS remains standoffish, cold and unwilling - perfectly happy in he M because all of *their* needs are being met! and unwilling / unable to understand that, simply because *they* are happy, their spouse might not be. And so, after decades of trying, and being slapped down, the WS learns that the BS simply does not want to fix the m because the consider the m just fine as it is.

 

Sometimes the WS leaves the M and the new R with the fAP has none of the problems that the M between the BS and WS had, but instead, those problem continue in every new R that the BS tries.

 

Sometimes, the BS continues to blame the fAP years after the WS left, for the R problems the BS continues to drag into new Rs, rather than spending some constructive time in reflection and self-discovery. Sometimes those BS are doomed to a life of misery because they continue to drink the Kool-Aid and insist that the BS can never be responsible for any problems in the R because, after all, the WS "cheated" and so that gives the BS a lifelong Get-out-of-Jail-free card.

 

Sure, let them use it, if it helps them feel better. But dogmatic insisting that the BS can never bear any responsibility isn't going to help those BS whose historic and continuing behaviour led to the initial problems to salvage their lives and have a shot at happiness in the future.

 

True, it can be the other way... But who exactly is insisting that the BS bears no responsibility?

[sweet_pea]

This is easy, why would we stay? Its either stay or give up everything you worked, blow up your family and start over, and in my case give give her half. So you could say some WS have golden hand cuffs on. It is what marriage is all about these days.

 

Aren't you risking all of that anyway by having an affair? I find it very sad that you think most marriages are about that.

Edited January 1, 2014 by sweet_pea

[goodyblue]

English is my first language (I have a reasonable command of 5 others) but thankyou for input on my 'grammar'.

 

 

Evidently I must be showing the side of the equation that irks you most...........................................

 

I'm always open to hearing all sides. I feel like I am hitting my head against a wall trying to get my point heard.

 

And of course I don't really care about your grammar. It just irritated me that you would say I am unlearned or not very bright for questioning studies on infidelity. I'm sorry, but you know as well as I that (most) cheaters lie. I can't imagine them suddenly coming clean for a study. Affairs are secretive and to be completely honest, I'm not sure that the whole truth EVER comes out.

 

So, I'll apologize for attacking your spelling and punctuation. But just so you know, I'm not an idiot and I do understand what goes into the studies and how hard people work in the industry to gather such information. The problem is, the honesty.

 

I hope your New Year is good.

[experiencethedevine]

I'm always open to hearing all sides. I feel like I am hitting my head against a wall trying to get my point heard.

 

And of course I don't really care about your grammar. It just irritated me that you would say I am unlearned or not very bright for questioning studies on infidelity. I'm sorry, but you know as well as I that (most) cheaters lie. I can't imagine them suddenly coming clean for a study. Affairs are secretive and to be completely honest, I'm not sure that the whole truth EVER comes out.

 

So, I'll apologize for attacking your spelling and punctuation. But just so you know, I'm not an idiot and I do understand what goes into the studies and how hard people work in the industry to gather such information. The problem is, the honesty.

 

I hope your New Year is good.

 

 

Here is where we appear to agree. The whole truth most likely never comes out. After all, as I'm sure you also understand, the whole affair is built on a bed of lies to begin with, so agreed, why would someone suddenly grow a conscience halo in the face of a study, and confess the truth.

 

 

BUT, as laurel points out, there are ways of exacting information within a formula that elicit some truth, and as the majority of studies are anonymous some might say it matters not if they are not publicly named whether they tell the truth, which might enable accurate information to be acquired.

 

 

Idiot is a term for gross intellectual disability. You are certainly not in this category, and if I led you to conclude that is what I suggested my apologies also.

[goodyblue]

Ex... I just wanted to address the conscience halo comment. I think that it is often thought that people involved in A's have no conscience, feel no guilt. It's certainly not the case in my situation or in the ones of the people I know who have been in my shoes. Of course there are SC's out there who don't care who they hurt, but my guy was just miserable with guilt, struggled with his feelings, didn't know what to do, felt isolated and eventually did the right thing by ending it with someone who no longer was his partner in his mind.

 

I don't think that WS's hide the truth because they are embarrassed or don't want to be outed, I think they don't tell the whole truth because they have an inward struggle.

 

It is never an easy road. Affairs are difficult, and while I know it seems popular to think that it is just this giant ego stroke, for a lot of us it is difficult. It is a struggle. It is sad, and everyone involved really has a hard time. Only when my guy made things right did he begin to heal. It's not easy but I will say we are happier than we were when we were apart.

 

He knows what he did. I know what I did. We have to live with that. It's not fun. But we are trying to move on making the best amends we can.

 

And in this, he and his ex need to be accountable for why their M failed. Why he was so unhappy. Sometimes, as Coco said, one partner is happy in a marriage because their needs are being met and the other partner is beating their head against a wall trying to be heard.

 

So, no halo's here on any of us, including her. I find it irritating that the affair is the only focus when the real focus should be on why the marriage failed. That is the real issue. But sometimes the BS takes the affair and uses it as a blanket to cover anything that was wrong and simply blame that. Forevermore my guys ex will only look at the affair and never, ever address her failings in the relationship, which will only hurt her in the long run. It's sad.

Edited January 2, 2014 by goodyblue