Article on Percentages/Infidelity

[Revolver]

I'm not surprised cheating is rarely if ever about upgrading when it comes to looks, it's about finding a new sex partner.

 

If it was about upgrading the person would just dump their current partner and go with the person they're cheating with

[JamesM]

Thank you for your perspective. There was a lot to respond to but I don't have the time this afternoon so I just picked out this as it relates more to this thread and I don't want to upset William.

 

You are welcome. More applied to this thread, but okay.

 

As for your perspective, it is one from being a BS. Your wife cheated on you. Mine is different.

 

In my experience, very few people "want to cheat". Cheating is a very human characteristic.

 

It is a human characteristic and we are all humans. While no one will profess to wanting to cheat, many desire to do so when in a situation that makes them more vulnerable. And so when I say want, I mean that with the right situation, we can cheat. It is not that we are forced to. It is not that some boundaries in place will prevent it. The boundaries help if we want them to.

 

So if I am told that your actions and words are all monitored outside of your control, then that is not a comfort to me....it is a prison sentence. If I set boundaries because I want to and committed to making them work, then I will be more inclined to honor them. If your mentioned boundaries were put upon me and I felt restricted, then I could easily get around them....and would justify it.

 

That being said, other than the mentally ill (bipolars and narcissists who lack impulse control) adulterers don't wake up in healthy marriages with a want and desire to cheat TODAY.

 

Agree, except that because we are all born into sin, we do sometimes desire to have that affair even if in a healthy marriage.

 

Sure they COULD avoid boundaries and jump through all sorts of hoops to rationalize and justify seeking an affair but this almost always happens AFTER highly inappropriate behavior and/or an inappropriate relationship has begun.

 

I agree, but then the boundaries don't help? Because aren't they supposed to be there to prevent the inappropriate behavior?

 

My own boundaries are used to prevent the inappropriate behaviors. Keyloggers and open phones and combined FB accounts would not be a hindrance. For me, it is the boundaries that I set.

 

Again, the extreme sneaking around happens AFTER the inappropriate behavior has already commenced through what's generally accepted as appropriate means (like facebook, texting and/or email with an old boyfriend or girlfriend as simply "friends"). Remove, modify, recognize the danger of and monitor those "appropriate means" upfront and magically there's no opportunity to commence an inappropriate relationship and everyone is none the wiser.

 

Even if our FB accounts are combined, I can create a fake one. Even if she knows of my phone, I can buy a prepaid one. Even if there is a keylogger, I can use a work computer or a library computer or not even use one. No, the boundaries will work for those who want to honor them only.

 

If my wife wanted an affair, then one of those boundaries would work on her guaranteed. She is not a big computer person. Her work phone is used for so many calls that I could never tell if one is a special person. She is out all day and could easily fit in a rendezvous. And on and on.

 

All I am saying is that those required boundaries before counseling are not boundaries that will stop someone who wants to cheat after they have convinced themselves of their love for an AP.

 

Don't assume that with those boundaries in place, your wife would never have cheated. I don't assume that with some boundaries my wife could never cheat.

 

The point being one of the big KEYS to avoiding either being a victim of an affair OR being the perpetrator of an affair in your marriage is establishing boundaries defining specifically good and appropriate couple behavior as well as avoiding and eliminating even the slightest of improprieties. If you value your marriage treat it that way.

 

I think setting boundaries IS good, but I think that setting them as a way to prevent affairs can only be done if customized for each couple. But even still, if the marriage is unhappy, then anyone who is determined can "jump" the boundaries without much effort.

 

We must establish continual communication and put in techniques that keeps the lines open rather than put in place boundaries that restrict.

 

 

Marriage that last 50 years without infidelity don't just happen. Not anymore.

 

They never did just happen. And the ones with infidelity stuck it out more often than divorced.

[carhill]

Read this article yesterday and, while the advice is sound, I wonder what LSers think about the numbers cited:

 

“Only 30 percent of cheating men surveyed choose mistresses who are younger than their wives. Not even half — 42.8 percent — think their mistress is prettier than their partner.

Outlier to the survey. OW was younger by a few years and comparable in physical aspects. It was an easy comparison to make since they interacted after disclosure.

In fact, almost 74 percent report that their partner is more interesting to them than their mistress. Why cheat, then? For the majority of these male survey respondents, their secret lovers are more caring, better listeners, and more passionate.

Slightly outlier, but not significant. I'd opine each was interesting in their own way, but my primary reason for seeking out other relations was due to being constructively abandoned emotionally. OW was definitely superior in that regard, even discounting any romantic involvement.

 

 

As to the latter, surely toward the top of the list of things healthy people hope for from a sexual partner is a sexual partner who really, really wants to 1) have sex and 2) have it with me! That is, healthy people in possession of healthy self-respect don’t really want to be serviced (“Kids to bed, clothes folded, sex with spouse”) or patronized (“Well, he did clean the garage like I asked”) and they certainly wouldn’t tolerate being begrudged (“Well, I suppose I did marry you; so, if you simply must have sex …”).

 

Sex was never really an issue to my knowledge, so no data on that part. Everyday cohabitation also was not an issue. We got along.

 

If you want to “affair proof” your marriage, then accept the daily work of connection. Talk. Listen. Inquire. Remember. Touch. Solicit. Soothe. Nurture. Pay attention. Next, never underestimate what place passion and desire play for your mate.

 

I agree and, until my exW and I split up, I continued to pursue these lines of interaction. However, as they say, it takes two.

 

Never tell yourself that sexual withdrawal, withholding or abandoning is inconsequential. And never give up on cultivating your own passion. This is the piece most often disregarded.

 

Good advice. I did make the mistake of subjugating too much of myself to the M. That was unhealthy.

 

It’s not OK to wake up in the middle of a marriage and say unilaterally, “Oh, by the way, I’ve decided sex is no longer important to me.”

 

Agreed, though not an issue in our M, at least to my knowledge.

 

Here is the astonishing irony. Wanna know where this cutting edge survey comes from? <snip>

 

Interesting.

 

Here’s what I’m curious about: Why wouldn’t you instead go to your spouse, take a breath and say, “It’s not OK to abandon the work of connection, nor to abandon participation in sexual courtship. I won’t tolerate it. If you want to grow old with me, then you’ll need to be fixing those things right away.”

 

I did, for about two years. Post EA, we attended MC for over a year. Marriage is a team effort. We both failed and we both have individual responsibilities in that failure.

 

 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Mr. Lucky

 

Each marriage and each affair is unique. IME, there are no generalities other than that, generally, affairs can be and usually are damaging to interpersonal relationships, regardless of whether they are open and conspicuous or hidden. They are one of many actions which can be damaging and, apparently, if that web site's statistics of membership are accurate, along with other statistics regarding infidelity, <affairs are> an often chosen action.

Edited October 23, 2013 by carhill
clarity

[ClemsonTigers]

Do we honestly have stats that support this? I feel like many will wax nostalgic about past generations and glossing over or forgetting some of the transgressions that were happening. Do we really know that there are more affairs now than before? I find that hard to believe since men were "okayed" more so in past decades to step outside than they are now. Domestic abuse was not seen as an issue, it was a man's right to rule his household, divorce was greatly frowned on especially for women and to be a "divorcee" was basically seen as a slut since you were obviously known to have had sex and didn't have the good graces to be a widow instead (though even that was seen as easy).

 

I really don't believe that affairs happen more now, MAYBE among women and potentially less professional sex workers used, but I think we are just more open and it is easier to track. Even the media back a few decades didn't discuss high ranking officials affairs. If that didn't make the papers, the average man's dalliances aren't going to be more than hush hush though the woman may be shunned.

 

Affairs, and anything tied to sex, has been more so on the raise for women since the Pill. That has revolutionized the power women have over their bodies and their decisions. Now women can stave off pregnancy that not too long ago would have been much harder/impossible. So like the raise in divorce, you could see the raise in affairs.

 

Having been a WS, I do agree with many of the other posters, while transparency may very much help narrow down the opportunities I think the old saying "where there is a will there is a way" is apropos. At the time I cheated, I was on my way out of the marriage so no amount of transparency would have necessarily shut that down. I had little respect left for the marriage and had no major concerns on gambling it.

 

 

Statistics can always be disputed but in just my 15 years of practicing I've seen a large uptick in infidelity. It might make many people feel better about themselves. Waywards often defend themselves by THINKING that they are just part of a sophisticate society of group that's been doing this kind of thing for centuries and Betrayed Spouses can soothe themselves by thinking that cheaters are born that way and there was absolutely nothing they could have done differently. However, even though movies make it appear it's been happening all along (and it has to some extent) I feel it's much more RAMPANT now and getting worse. If you want some numbers....Here's an excerpt I found on Helen Fisher's website which shows the percentage of men that have cheated has tripled and women doubled. Authors, Tsapelas, I, HE Fisher, and A Aron (2010) “Infidelity:when, where, why.” IN WR Cupach and BH Spitzberg, The Dark Side of Close Relationships II, New York:Routledge, pp 175-196.

 

Infidelity was also widespread in former decades, and in historical and tribal societies. Reports in the 1920s indicated that 28% of American men and 24% of women were adulterous at some point after wedding (Lawrence, 1989). In the late 1940s and early 1950s, approximately 33% of men and 26% of women in an American sample were adulterous (Kinsey et al., 1948;Kinsey et al., 1953). Data in the 1970s indicated that some 41% of men and 25% of women reported infidelity (Hunt, 1974), and data collected in the 1980s suggest that 72% of men and 54% of women were unfaithful at some point during marriage.http://www.helenfisher.com/downloads/articles/INFIDELITY.pdf

[JamesM]

Waywards often defend themselves by THINKING that they are just part of a sophisticate society of group that's been doing this kind of thing for centuries and Betrayed Spouses can soothe themselves by thinking that cheaters are born that way and there was absolutely nothing they could have done differently.

 

And there in lies the reasons why you advocate so many boundaries. On this we agree.

 

The big point you made which I would like to emphasize is....much can be done to prevent affairs. While each is their own person and will make their own decisions, there are things we can do to prevent the desire for affairs.

 

It makes sense that if we are getting what we want in marriage, then we won't go elsewhere. No, not always true. And no, when we are not, it doesn't justify adultery. But it does give couples some tools to get control over their marriage.

 

Everyone can cheat, but most won't. And knowing one's self is a great step to setting personal boundaries. And learning about one's spouse is a good way to meet his or her needs to prevent (as much as possible) him or her from wanting to fill a void with someone outside of the marriage.

[ClemsonTigers]

You are welcome. More applied to this thread, but okay.

 

As for your perspective, it is one from being a BS. Your wife cheated on you. Mine is different.

 

 

 

It is a human characteristic and we are all humans. While no one will profess to wanting to cheat, many desire to do so when in a situation that makes them more vulnerable. And so when I say want, I mean that with the right situation, we can cheat. It is not that we are forced to. It is not that some boundaries in place will prevent it. The boundaries help if we want them to.

 

So if I am told that your actions and words are all monitored outside of your control, then that is not a comfort to me....it is a prison sentence. If I set boundaries because I want to and committed to making them work, then I will be more inclined to honor them. If your mentioned boundaries were put upon me and I felt restricted, then I could easily get around them....and would justify it.

 

 

 

Agree, except that because we are all born into sin, we do sometimes desire to have that affair even if in a healthy marriage.

 

 

 

I agree, but then the boundaries don't help? Because aren't they supposed to be there to prevent the inappropriate behavior?

 

My own boundaries are used to prevent the inappropriate behaviors. Keyloggers and open phones and combined FB accounts would not be a hindrance. For me, it is the boundaries that I set.

 

 

 

Even if our FB accounts are combined, I can create a fake one. Even if she knows of my phone, I can buy a prepaid one. Even if there is a keylogger, I can use a work computer or a library computer or not even use one. No, the boundaries will work for those who want to honor them only.

 

If my wife wanted an affair, then one of those boundaries would work on her guaranteed. She is not a big computer person. Her work phone is used for so many calls that I could never tell if one is a special person. She is out all day and could easily fit in a rendezvous. And on and on.

 

All I am saying is that those required boundaries before counseling are not boundaries that will stop someone who wants to cheat after they have convinced themselves of their love for an AP.

 

Don't assume that with those boundaries in place, your wife would never have cheated. I don't assume that with some boundaries my wife could never cheat.

 

 

 

I think setting boundaries IS good, but I think that setting them as a way to prevent affairs can only be done if customized for each couple. But even still, if the marriage is unhappy, then anyone who is determined can "jump" the boundaries without much effort.

 

We must establish continual communication and put in techniques that keeps the lines open rather than put in place boundaries that restrict.

 

 

 

 

They never did just happen. And the ones with infidelity stuck it out more often than divorced.

 

Yes...my work is designed only to prevent and|or minimize the risk of the accidental out of character affair under the presumption that my clients are good people that are presumably seeing me to strengthen their marriages.

 

If they aren't good people/persons, there's often not much I can do until they reveal themselves (which, ironically, they often do by being oppositional to my suggestions herein). If they are oppositional and beyond reasoning with I typically try to get the couple in for individual sessions where I try to work with the oppositional spouse to build self-esteem through behavior modification. I try to build trust with the client and get him|her to share with me the behaviors they hiding and identify|overcome their shame. The non-oppositional spouse I encourage to spy on their spouse secretly. I inform them about something most of them don't know....they are not in a safe relationship.

 

Those with nothing to hide...hide nothing.

 

 

BTW....men that I have known that had their wives stumble upon their online journaling and "private|secret" internet forum postings have very often had HUGE breakthroughs in their marriages. Men don't know how to complain to their wives and live by the mantra of not upsetting their wives. Sharing your complaints in BULK...once any initial anger is set aside...is often beneficial to the marriage. You should share your posting name with her and see what happens. She's your wife...she WANTS to know you better.

[Grumpybutfun]

Affair prevention is key. Work on your marriage, make it a priority, make sure that your spouse feels valued and listened to. We all have days where we are extremely busy and overwhelmed by life, but we have to make sure our priorities are on our families.

The honest truth is that most of the people I have ever talked to who have had affairs says that their wife/husband no longer took any time for them. They did not value them or they were having ongoing arguments, resentments about housework/yard work/chores, or that they no longer gave them any attention (for men it was sex, for women it was romance.) When you take anyone for granted, it is going to make a huge breach between you. There are only a few people I have talked to who said, "Well, my spouse was great, but the AP was just so pretty, sexy, nice, giving, kinky, etc." Very small percentage said that, in fact.

I also think that personal responsibility is a concept that most people no longer have ay integrity towards. Blame it on the world, but just don't blame my bad/poor decisions on me. Wow, the older I got in the military, the more I would see this in all facets of personal responsibility. Therefore, saying, I couldn't help it because it wasn't my fault seems to be a common thread in these matters. Woops, my dick just fell in her vagina but it wasn't my fault is actually accepted anymore because there is no personal responsibility that alcohol, drugs, or mental illness are things that you can either moderate or control through medical help.

I suppose what I don't understand is the OM/OW who knows someone is married and goes after them anyway and then is upset when they stay with their wife/husband and they end up feeling used and shamed.

hmmm,

Grumps

[JamesM]

BTW....men that I have known that had their wives stumble upon their online journaling and "private|secret" internet forum postings have very often had HUGE breakthroughs in their marriages. Men don't know how to complain to their wives and live by the mantra of not upsetting their wives. Sharing your complaints in BULK...once any initial anger is set aside...is often beneficial to the marriage. You should share your posting name with her and see what happens. She's your wife...she WANTS to know you better.

 

Good point. She loves what I write to her and I have done that many many times.

 

Much of what I have written here, I have said to her...usually after saying it here but also before I said it here. Some of what I write here is simply venting and then forgotten as the "huge issue" in my mind became nothing when put in perspective by others here. That has been a big help.

 

I am going to go on a limb and say that very few things I say here would be a secret to her. How I said them to her may be the same or different depending on how I know she would respond. Nothing is held back because I am afraid of upsetting her. Truly I mean that.

 

But Yes, there are things that should have been said sooner that weren't. A letter she mentioned to me...I could have said more.

 

Who knows....someday I may share it all. I have come close a couple of times to let her see my writing and feelings. But that would be like revealing the transcripts of visits to a counselor when during that whole time stuff was said that was never intended for her eyes.

 

Personally, I think it is good that spouses have some privacy in their marriage, but would agree that if trust is broken, then keeping the privacy is a sign that a willingness to build the trust is suspect.

[JamesM]

Y If they are oppositional and beyond reasoning with I typically try to get the couple in for individual sessions where I try to work with the oppositional spouse to build self-esteem through behavior modification. I try to build trust with the client and get him|her to share with me the behaviors they hiding and identify|overcome their shame. The non-oppositional spouse I encourage to spy on their spouse secretly. I inform them about something most of them don't know....they are not in a safe relationship.

 

Those with nothing to hide...hide nothing.

 

First, if I get this correctly, then you get one spouse to reveal secrets so that you can reveal them to the other spouse?

 

Second, those that want to hide something may not actually have anything to hide. That person may simply be someone who likes their space. I like to get out alone. Would I give that up? No. Why? It is an escape. Do I tell my wife every place I go? No. If she asks do I refuse to tell her? No. If I didn't want to share a FB account with my wife, does that mean I have something to hide? No. I have my friends. She has hers. Is that wrong? Maybe it doesn't apply as she does have my password (if she remembers it).

 

Perhaps I misunderstood. You may be referring to couples are trying to reconcile.

[ClemsonTigers]

First, if I get this correctly, then you get one spouse to reveal secrets so that you can reveal them to the other spouse?

 

I would and have....infidelity will be revealed and our sessions are JOINT

so

I am not bound to keep secrets, however, that's not my goal (to bust people and tell on them)

so

it's the exception that that happens.

 

Second, those that want to hide something may not actually have anything to hide. That person may simply be someone who likes their space. I like to get out alone. Would I give that up? No. Why? It is an escape. Do I tell my wife every place I go? No. If she asks do I refuse to tell her? No. If I didn't want to share a FB account with my wife, does that mean I have something to hide? No. I have my friends. She has hers. Is that wrong? Maybe it doesn't apply as she does have my password (if she remembers it).

 

Perhaps I misunderstood. You may be referring to couples are trying to reconcile.

 

The "oppositional" clients aren't just a little oppositional...they are against even discussing it. They aren't interested in boundaries whatsoever being applied to them (though they often think they are great for their spouse). I try to work with couples to discuss and design their own MARITAL boundaries such that they can carry the process of discussion and implementation forward into their lives without my intervention or help. Unfortunately, I only get a few weeks with most couples. People spend more time and money taking care of their cars than their marriages. . My examples are things I encourage and suggest. I tend to take things to the extreme such that even if they don't get to that extreme (until after one of them cheats) they at least get the idea and maybe take a few precautions.

 

 

 

Interesting...I have to respond with at least 10 characters outside the quote.

 

Let me add: 10 years or so ago, I'd estimate that maybe 5 of 10 married persons had an old lover's phone number on their phone. Now, I'd estimate 8 out of 10 do and 9 out of 10 that have facebook have a former lover friend. We are a connected society like none before. Just about any married person can reach in their pocket|purse and either call or look at pictures or communicate with an old flame on a moments notice AND GET A RESPONSE. Going bowling, a movie, the batting cage, fishing or even to sit by a lake for an introspective moment or two isn't a issue I'd be overly concerned with. I'd like to encourage you to share some of those moments with your wife a time or two to show her what you do and why you enjoy it. Spending time with your spouse doing what one most enjoys is important.

[JamesM]

I'd like to encourage you to share some of those moments with your wife a time or two to show her what you do and why you enjoy it. Spending time with your spouse doing what one most enjoys is important.

 

Good response and thank you. It cleared up much. Honestly, I was concerned that one person revealed secrets unknowingly and were shared. I guess IC would be better for such a person before JC anyhow. You do tell the person that what he or she says can be told to the spouse?

 

It is true...we do forget to place importance on our marriages. Men especially having achieved the goal of marriage, figure that new goals must be achieved...without remembering to maintain their marriage.

 

As for your comment, and not to make my marriage better than it is or was (it has been an open book on LS)...we are one thing for certain and have always been: best friends. We do share each other's hobbies in that we talk about them. She loves my gardens and even my aquariums. I do enjoy seeing her finished projects.

 

As for going out, we both enjoy that more than going out alone...even I do. It is such a joy to see how she relaxes and smiles more when we get out alone without the children. She is almost a different person. Her problems and pains disappear. Her worry lines seem to melt away. And mine probably do too.

 

And I guess neither of us have hobbies that involve other people, so we either have each other or other couples from church. Even though our dates right now (have children) are often lunch dates, we both love them.

 

Totally agree with you....time together make all of the difference. While I do like my time alone...and she has learned to enjoy hers too, we don't put that above time together.

 

Thanks for your input here. It is a good addition.

Edited October 23, 2013 by JamesM

[Got it]

Statistics can always be disputed but in just my 15 years of practicing I've seen a large uptick in infidelity. It might make many people feel better about themselves. Waywards often defend themselves by THINKING that they are just part of a sophisticate society of group that's been doing this kind of thing for centuries and Betrayed Spouses can soothe themselves by thinking that cheaters are born that way and there was absolutely nothing they could have done differently. However, even though movies make it appear it's been happening all along (and it has to some extent) I feel it's much more RAMPANT now and getting worse. If you want some numbers....Here's an excerpt I found on Helen Fisher's website which shows the percentage of men that have cheated has tripled and women doubled. Authors, Tsapelas, I, HE Fisher, and A Aron (2010) “Infidelity:when, where, why.” IN WR Cupach and BH Spitzberg, The Dark Side of Close Relationships II, New York:Routledge, pp 175-196.

 

Since the 50s? More affairs?

 

I am not arguing that since they have always been that they will always be. I am refuting your stance that there are more affairs now in marriages than prior. I don't agree so I think the same struggles have always been there. Except now women have more rights to do something about it. It wasn't that long ago, if a man cheated the wife was 100% blamed.

 

So I disagree but not for the reasons you surmised.