Here goes

[RightThere]

2. "This was the version of the story I was told." -- and what's the value of her word now, in the immediate aftermath of all this? If you had to take a hard look at what you've been told, coupled with the grim reality of what she's done, you're willing to accept it so easily as gospel?

 

That is the exact reason why I state "the version I was told". I haven't accepted anything as the truth yet. I only stated what I was told. You're assuming I'm accepting it at truth based on blind faith. Not the case at all.

 

3. You're basing your "positive progress" on her word in the aftermath of her horsing around just one week ago.

 

Again, that it why I emphasized that it's only been ONE WEEK. It's a very short time frame and really things could change again in a heartbeat. I'm not naive to that. And what I've seen as positive progress could be a total smoke screen. No one here is just accepting everything as truth and we're in the clear. I don't think anything could be further from the truth.

[RightThere]

P.S. I honestly think, RightThere, that you're shell-shocked. Like a veteran that's suffering from PTSD. What's happened to you, over & over, is so repellant, so egregious, and nauseating, that you're having trouble coming to grips with it.

 

I cannot deny that this may be going on with me.

[beach]

I think "time will show" is the crux of where I'm at right now. It's only been a week. I've had some positive progress, but it's ONLY BEEN A WEEK.

 

And just so everyone is clear, when I call it "real reconciliation" I only mean that this is the first time she's been 100% in and doing the required things for reconciliation to work. I don't know if it's going to actually work or be sustained, but it's just not he "fake reconciliation" work we did previously.

 

One other piece of truth I'll add is that her and her OM spoke last on Friday (a week ago). At that time, she told him she didn't want to be with him anymore and that she wanted to work on getting back together with me. This was the version of the story I was told. Since then, she has had no contact with him (that I know of). But so it's on the table, he has not tried to contact her either.

 

She's not believable yet.

 

You never heard her conversation, right? Nothing to believe yet.

 

Words and actions must match long term.

 

Did you look at her phone bill?

[Steadfast]

Very interesting.

 

Your position if I may paraphrase, seems to be: "I appreciate the time invested in responding, your insights, experiences and advice, but this is my life, my marriage, my decision and my problem to handle. Therefore, I will systematically dismiss said advice and educate you in my mindset...while at the same time dropping hints that I'm not exactly sure what I'm doing."

 

Is that accurate? If so, it seems you are handling this thread about the same way you're handling your marriage. Flying at night, no instruments. Just hunches, bunches, hoping and waiting to see the eventual outcome.

 

Did you look at her phone bill?

 

No offense to beach, who (like the rest of us) obviously wants to see you in a better place, but this is exactly what I'm talking about. Maybe it's where I am in my life or even my age, but I have absolutely no interest in living that life ever again. Days are precious. I want to fill them with time spent studying the word of my creator, working my craft, loving my family, building my passions and chasing my dreams. I want to sit across from my lover at an outside cafe', sip wine and look into her beautiful eyes with love. I will want her in my life for love and romance. Any thoughts of betrayal non existent, because I've learned I have no control over that. I will not burden my heart with fear of that which I have no control over.

 

Only a fool believes no dark days will come. They will and they do, for all of us. Only a coward believes that pain from betrayal will not come. It will. The difference? Those days will not be chosen by me. I will deal with that which is out of my control understanding that these things happen. I will fortify my body and mind by feeding it good things. I will not choose pain!

 

Choose wisely friend. Days are precious and none are guaranteed.

[Giggle]

If you don't mind me asking, what makes it "not final" for you? Is it just paperwork at this point, or you are not finished with the relationship yet?

 

So so done. Though for a bit it was hard not to be practical and he is genuinely a nice guy. He completely killed it by lying. It took me awhile though to be sure that I couldn't do it anymore.

 

It isn't final by way of paperwork.

 

My 1st though.. We talked about getting back together all the way past a year being divorced. And he had left me for someone else. I value myself a whole lot more now. That is something you have to find for yourself.. She has been running over the top of you and she can't respect you like that. Without respect.. Its dead and you're just being drug along for whatever stability/backup you can offer.

I sort of have it like that now, I have no respect for my STBX. I could run all over him and he'd keep hanging on. He really has no respect for himself either. I could do everything she has done and he'd be there. Its only my personality and morals that keep it from happening and its exhausting.

[2sunny]

Do you think you've lost your self respect in all her drama?

 

Or do you think you've still been respecting yourself all along?

[dumped2013]

RT, I don't pray much but I'm going to say a prayer for you tonight. Good luck my friend

[Mr.Milked]

I cannot deny that this may be going on with me.

Who could? You are in twilight zone area.

 

 

I like the sig though.

 

 

"Men know life too early. Women know life too late. That is the difference between men and women" - Oscar Wilde

[RightThere]

She's not believable yet.

 

You never heard her conversation, right? Nothing to believe yet.

 

Words and actions must match long term.

 

Totally agree.

 

Did you look at her phone bill?

 

Yes, I have access. But I haven't checked in it a little bit. More because they are both aware that I have access and have checked. They always knew I did, but never tried to hide it before. Now she has ways through her work to contact him if she wanted I could never check that.

[RightThere]

Your position if I may paraphrase, seems to be: "I appreciate the time invested in responding, your insights, experiences and advice, but this is my life, my marriage, my decision and my problem to handle.

 

I think that is totally accurate.

 

Therefore, I will systematically dismiss said advice and educate you in my mindset...while at the same time dropping hints that I'm not exactly sure what I'm doing."

 

Is that accurate? If so, it seems you are handling this thread about the same way you're handling your marriage. Flying at night, no instruments. Just hunches, bunches, hoping and waiting to see the eventual outcome.

 

I don't think I dismiss anyone or their input. I get contrary advice on there all the time. Just because I don't follow everyone's advice doesn't mean I dismiss it. If I was dismissing people's advice, I would probably be saying they are wrong. Which I don't think is the case at all.

 

And in case it's not abundantly clear, I will spell it out. I have no idea what the #$%& I'm doing.

 

Flying at night is a good analogy, but I would say that is probably pretty accurate for anyone going through reconciliation. We have no idea what the end result will be. It could be a repaired marriage, and it could be the realization that things are too broken. If you've got the instruments to know exactly where you are going and what the end result is going to be, you are light years ahead of the rest of earth's population.

 

Only a fool believes no dark days will come. They will and they do, for all of us. Only a coward believes that pain from betrayal will not come. It will. The difference? Those days will not be chosen by me. I will deal with that which is out of my control understanding that these things happen. I will fortify my body and mind by feeding it good things. I will not choose pain!

 

Choose wisely friend. Days are precious and none are guaranteed.

 

I appreciate the philosophical addition, but I don't think I've ever indicated I believe there are no dark days ahead or pain from betrayal will not come. I'm assuming these are just some general add-ons because I am not sitting and watching this unfold with rose colored glasses at all.

[RightThere]

Do you think you've lost your self respect in all her drama?

 

Or do you think you've still been respecting yourself all along?

 

I would say initially way back when I first found out about everything, I lost a lot of my own self respect. I think I rebuilt a lot of good self respect for myself while we were separated.

 

As for today, you asking this made me question it myself. If I'm to be honest, I feel like I still have my self respect. Maybe I'm fooling myself, but I feel like I'm still in that good place mentally when I was separated. But that I just me speaking with my heart. If I was to give you an answer from my head, I'm not convinced I have all my self respect. I don't know I would believe someone who would explain this situation to me and I would look at them and think they totally respect themselves.

[worldgonewrong]

I would believe someone who would explain this situation to me and I would look at them and think they totally respect themselves.

 

Conversely (and respectfully), I would look at that them and think what they believe is self-respect is actually shell-shocked clinging to...something that doesn't exist.

 

When a woman (or a man) sleeps with people outside their marriage (in your wife's case, about 3 guys? Lost track), they are communicating to you that they don't want to be with you, don't respect you, and they're trying to get you angry enough to pull the metaphorical trigger on the marriage since they're too cowardly to do so outright.

 

I don't know where you're deriving your self-respect from if you're still indulging this woman after the hell she's put you through. Yes, we can parse what "indulging" means, but I think you know.

 

You're putting on a brave face, putting across a sort of 'clinical detachment' toward everything we're telling you, and yet I feel it's all shell-shocked non-reaction. I tell ya, the minute something clicks in you, you're going to be overwhelmed/distraught/furious/etc. and you'll want this woman out of your life.

[RightThere]

Conversely (and respectfully), I would look at that them and think what they believe is self-respect is actually shell-shocked clinging to...something that doesn't exist.

 

No disrespect, but I think you misquoted me. I said I didn't think I could believe someone who said what I've been saying about self respect.

 

When a woman (or a man) sleeps with people outside their marriage (in your wife's case, about 3 guys? Lost track), they are communicating to you that they don't want to be with you, don't respect you, and they're trying to get you angry enough to pull the metaphorical trigger on the marriage since they're too cowardly to do so outright.

 

Not sure if I've talked about this before, but I totally believe this to be true. She did not respect me. And her expectation was that I would be so disgusted and angry that I would kick her out and be the one to pull the trigger on divorce instantly. She was on a very self destructive path at the time, not just the infidelity, and I believe the way she thought I would treat her would allow her to spiral further down.

 

I believe there were parts of our life that she enjoyed. But she definitely wanted to have her cake and eat it too.

 

I don't know where you're deriving your self-respect from if you're still indulging this woman after the hell she's put you through. Yes, we can parse what "indulging" means, but I think you know.

 

You're putting on a brave face, putting across a sort of 'clinical detachment' toward everything we're telling you, and yet I feel it's all shell-shocked non-reaction. I tell ya, the minute something clicks in you, you're going to be overwhelmed/distraught/furious/etc. and you'll want this woman out of your life.

 

As for right now, all my self respect (or lack there of) is generated from myself. No indulging or outpouring of support or affection from her. She is still depressed. We talk very regularly and it's not just from her "break-up" but also her own soul searching of "am I even a good person" and the realization as the fog lifts as to what she exactly exposed her own daughter to. I always knew her other man was a train wreck, but as she tells me about things, the situations that occurred make a lot more sense now based on what I was already seeing and hearing.

 

And as for the "click", I know it is something that could happen at any moment. I felt a similar "click" when I snapped out of my depression while separated. If it happens, then I'll be ready to deal with it then.

[aliveagain]

RightThere I believe you corrected me on an earlier post and it's a minimum of 5 guys she's had affairs with while married to you. I guess respect means different things to different people. I too am above the 49th parallel and one affair is one too many affairs to me, her lying cheating a$$ would have been on the street the same day I found out. Respect is what you demand when you stand up for what you believe in. You can see it in the faces of people around you that know your storey. I don't believe your wife respects you by her actions and she already knows that you'll continue to find new excuses to explain her behaviour no matter what she does. This is your life and if having her part time is sufficient for your needs than who are we to tell you otherwise?

 

She will only do what you allow her to do and she will only show you the respect she feels you deserve. We all have different reasons for staying or going. Some think that this is all they deserve and don't think they can do better, some still believe their wayward spouse is still a prize. Others know there are real prince's and princess's out there and not troll's pretending to be to be one, they have no problem walking away. Serial cheaters look for partners that are fear full of loss, they choose spouses that are co-dependant. The best thing you can do is work on yourself because you will never be able to control her and your just fooling yourself if you believe you can change the way she treats you. Stock up on the condoms.

[2sunny]

From this perspective she looks like she going to wait until she finds another victim she can use...besides you, of course.

[Yasuandio]

Very interesting.

 

Your position if I may paraphrase, seems to be: "I appreciate the time invested in responding, your insights, experiences and advice, but this is my life, my marriage, my decision and my problem to handle. Therefore, I will systematically dismiss said advice and educate you in my mindset...while at the same time dropping hints that I'm not exactly sure what I'm doing."

 

Is that accurate? If so, it seems you are handling this thread about the same way you're handling your marriage. Flying at night, no instruments. Just hunches, bunches, hoping and waiting to see the eventual outcome.

 

 

RT, I just want to make an observation than is less succinct than Steadfast's quote above, to which your responded. You have received estute posts from both newer LS members that have joined the community, as well as long time LS Vets such as Steadfast, 2Sunny, Trippi, AliveAgain, and now Worldgonewrong.

 

Most recently, Since your "real reconciliation," I've noticed you've become very proactive in responding to almost every dimension of posts offered to your thread. I find your responses to be perhaps purposely parroting the comments offered to you, rather than trying to learn from them. Almost like you have to have the last word. I am wondering, if, as AliveAgain brought up in another context, if you have some control issues.

 

Once Worldgonewrong came on your thread and offered his experienced opinions to you, you even took his posts apart, without really absorbing the message IMO - which I found extremely valuable.

 

I would go so far as to say you are responding defensively on a repeated basis ever since this "Real Reconcilation" started, I guess, subsequently after your wife announced she had her good-by sexual encounter with #5.

 

We at the LS community are not the enemy. I hope you think about this observation. Maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm right. But, I'm fairly sharp, and I don't see that you have a plan or direction (i.e. Steadfast's flight metaphor). Try listening and absorbing, rather than reacting/analyzing for awhile. After some time, then respond. Normally, how did the idea work in practice? What are your thoughts on that position? This isn't a debate.

 

For instance, a week ago, I asked you to study "piecing" - and told you about the DB forum on "Piecing," (Reconcilation). You haven't mentioned it. What did you learn? Discussing matter like is more practical than debating the posters opinions. That's my take, Yas

[RightThere]

RT, I just want to make an observation than is less succinct than Steadfast's quote above, to which your responded. You have received estute posts from both newer LS members that have joined the community, as well as long time LS Vets such as Steadfast, 2Sunny, Trippi, AliveAgain, and now Worldgonewrong.

 

Most recently, Since your "real reconciliation," I've noticed you've become very proactive in responding to almost every dimension of posts offered to your thread. I find your responses to be perhaps purposely parroting the comments offered to you, rather than trying to learn from them. Almost like you have to have the last word. I am wondering, if, as AliveAgain brought up in another context, if you have some control issues.

 

Once Worldgonewrong came on your thread and offered his experienced opinions to you, you even took his posts apart, without really absorbing the message IMO - which I found extremely valuable.

 

I would go so far as to say you are responding defensively on a repeated basis ever since this "Real Reconcilation" started, I guess, subsequently after your wife announced she had her good-by sexual encounter with #5.

 

We at the LS community are not the enemy. I hope you think about this observation. Maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm right. But, I'm fairly sharp, and I don't see that you have a plan or direction (i.e. Steadfast's flight metaphor). Try listening and absorbing, rather than reacting/analyzing for awhile. After some time, then respond. Normally, how did the idea work in practice? What are your thoughts on that position? This isn't a debate.

 

For instance, a week ago, I asked you to study "piecing" - and told you about the DB forum on "Piecing," (Reconcilation). You haven't mentioned it. What did you learn? Discussing matter like is more practical than debating the posters opinions. That's my take, Yas

 

*Deep breath*

 

Thank you for that. I will do a bit more thinking as opposed to talking for a bit.

[Yasuandio]

*Deep breath*

 

Thank you for that. I will do a bit more thinking as opposed to talking for a bit.

 

Dudeman, firstly, thank you for not taking my post apart. But now, again, in one sentence, I believe you dismissed my message, in a passive aggressive manner. The message was apply what your learning, before you discredit or counter it as not your agenda due to the fact that you don't know what you are doing (trying to rephrase Steadfast).

 

You need to talk and express yourself. And I gave you a perfect example. DB explanation of the innate difficulties in reconcillation, and the forum that has hundreds of case studies where you can see the pattern emerge time and time again. How have you applied this outstanding information? How many storied did you read. There are several like your's - real case studies.

 

And I have several more references for you on reconciliation.

 

I want to hear back what you are learning about "piecing," and how close or far away you are from following Michele Weiner Davis' proven techniques. I am not asking you to sit there like a wallflower.

 

What's with the deep breaths. Don't thank me, thank Michele. I look forward to you responses regarding this material, and site, in detail, and your compliance thereto. Yas

[2sunny]

Change comes when action is taken that is opposite of pat action.

 

I see you still taking the same action (no new action) as you have been all along (for the most part).

 

Sitting and waiting for her to decide isn't action in your part. Neither is waiting for her "other relationship to end" taking a proactive approach.

 

You "react" to what she decides. That's why you're not moving this forward... At best it's standing still. That's because no new action on your part.

 

She's depressed over the end of her lover... Do you see how that looks? She had sex with him last week! Do you see how that looks? This is the 5th guy she's cheated with (that you know of).

 

 

Yet you used to state IF she had cheated at all you'd end it = still no new action FROM YOU.

 

You just continue to wait and see and think about it. Thinking does NOT change it!

 

If bet money if you packed her stuff and changed the locks - that shed either get totally INTO reconciling or she wouldn't! But at least you'd have an answer!

 

Waiting for her to get UNdepressed over her lover is just a load of crap.

 

You've made this way too easy for her to continue disregarding AND disrespecting you. She may look like she's "trying" but there really is NO TRY. She either does it or she doesn't!

 

 

When you take the action - instead of being reactionary - that's when things will change in your favor.

 

Someone is always responsible for driving the bus - and that's obviously always been your wife. The wife who isn't who you thought she was.

 

Time to get into that driver seat and take charge of where this is going! Either it's gonna happen or it's not! Better to find out now rather than later.

 

More than anything - I wish you'd find a boundary and stick to it! Lowering YOUR standards and expectations each time she exhibits MORE bad behavior is never going to fix anything.

Edited March 11, 2014 by 2sunny

[RightThere]

Dudeman, firstly, thank you for not taking my post apart. But now, again, in one sentence, I believe you dismissed my message, in a passive aggressive manner. The message was apply what your learning, before you discredit or counter it as not your agenda due to the fact that you don't know what you are doing (trying to rephrase Steadfast).

 

You need to talk and express yourself. And I gave you a perfect example. DB explanation of the innate difficulties in reconcillation, and the forum that has hundreds of case studies where you can see the pattern emerge time and time again. How have you applied this outstanding information? How many storied did you read. There are several like your's - real case studies.

 

And I have several more references for you on reconciliation.

 

I want to hear back what you are learning about "piecing," and how close or far away you are from following Michele Weiner Davis' proven techniques. I am not asking you to sit there like a wallflower.

 

What's with the deep breaths. Don't thank me, thank Michele. I look forward to you responses regarding this material, and site, in detail, and your compliance thereto. Yas

 

I apologize. I wasn't trying to be passive aggressive. I just felt I should take a break from responding to everything and just re-read some of those recent posts and make sure I try to get the message from them. The deep breath was just me stopping what I was doing and refocusing on doing some better listening and reading.

 

I haven't actually been back to DB in the past week, so I haven't done my homework on piecing. I will get back in there today.

[RightThere]

Waiting for her to get UNdepressed over her lover is just a load of crap.

 

I guess I'm confused as to why you say that is a load of crap? Because she shouldn't have those feelings? Because I shouldn't put up with her having those feelings?

 

I see you still taking the same action (no new action) as you have been all along (for the most part).

 

To be honest, I'm lost as to what new actions I should be following. She already has her own place, so I don't need to pack her stuff. She's been out for a while. I have full access to her emails and phone. I can check it whenever I want. I'm still doing my own things (gym, going out) so those are what I consider new actions since D-Day.

 

But if I'm considering reconciliation, are some of my new actions setting those boundaries?

- If you see him again, we're done.

- If you sleep with him, we're done.

 

Some boundaries I have told her are with her running group. He still goes there and I told her that if she wants to go there, then we're done. Same with her yoga class. Both have been honored so far.

[dumped2013]

But if I'm considering reconciliation, are some of my new actions setting those boundaries?

- If you see him again, we're done.- Yes

- If you sleep with him, we're done.- Yes

 

 

I just find it hard to believe that you keep taking her back after cheating with 5 different guys. Especially after banging the guy at lunch last week when supposedly trying to reconcile with you.

You are a gluten for punishment.

There are plenty of available NORMAL women on this planet that will treat you well and respect you.

[RightThere]

But if I'm considering reconciliation, are some of my new actions setting those boundaries?

- If you see him again, we're done.- Yes

- If you sleep with him, we're done.- Yes

 

I think my question may have come across wrong there. I guess what I meant was "Are my new actions as simple as setting these boundaries?"

 

The only answers I would accept are "yes" and "yes".

 

There are just a lot of contributions from a few members here about how my same old action and lack of current action are not facilitating change. I'm just wanting to understand better the kinds of current different action I should be doing.

 

I just find it hard to believe that you keep taking her back after cheating with 5 different guys. Especially after banging the guy at lunch last week when supposedly trying to reconcile with you.

 

Not sure if it's clear in my thread, but the "5 guys" were all pre D-Day. Once I discovered the affairs, she came clean with everything. Not that it makes it any better, but I didn't "take her back" 5 different times. However this is probably me playing semantics.

 

And as for the most recent episode, I think I'm still coming to grips with processing that. Some moments it's like a small bit of extra icing on the crap sandwich I'm already eating. Other moments it's like the flashing warning sign that nothing is different at all and I'm just being taken for a ride.

[worldgonewrong]

I guess I'm confused as to why you say that is a load of crap? Because she shouldn't have those feelings? Because I shouldn't put up with her having those feelings?

 

Butting in: she's entitled to her feelings, but it doesn't mean they're legit, especially when it comes to being depressed about the right thing- to wit, your marriage.

You shouldn't put up with her feelings - or rather, shouldn't be the emotional tampon. Not after she's screwed 5 guys.

 

To be honest, I'm lost as to what new actions I should be following. She already has her own place, so I don't need to pack her stuff. She's been out for a while. I have full access to her emails and phone. I can check it whenever I want. I'm still doing my own things (gym, going out) so those are what I consider new actions since D-Day.

 

So you're content with being the caretaker of the graveyard that is this relationship. You have full access to her emails and phone. Whoopee. You're not living together, therefore she can still screw someone else and you'd never know it.

Your 'new actions' are simply being the caretaker for something that's dead in the water, while hitting the gym & going out. The first part is pure emotional/soul cancer. Cut it out.

 

But if I'm considering reconciliation,

 

Let me stop you right there. You act like you have some sort of 'power' in this whole thing. "If I'm considering reconciliation" - please. It's about 2 people. She wants out. She IS out.

 

are some of my new actions setting those boundaries?

- If you see him again, we're done.

- If you sleep with him, we're done.

 

So 6 screws outside of the marriage is your magic number?? God have mercy...

 

Some boundaries I have told her are with her running group. He still goes there and I told her that if she wants to go there, then we're done. Same with her yoga class. Both have been honored so far.

 

She doesn't live with you anymore. You'd never know 'honored' (and 'honored' from her?? A person of honor who just screwed another guy last week?) because you've not experienced it. You're drawing lines in the sand, and she thinks you're a joke.

 

I hate to be so blunt, but I say it with LOVE. You continue to allow yourself to be taken advantage of, while also believing that you have some sort of control (e.g. setting boundaries). The horse has left the stable and you're yelling out in the wind, "If you don't come back, you'll never get my apples again." The horse is like "Eff your apples. I can nibble on a whole orchard of apple trees. Adios."

 

WAKE UP.

[Yasuandio]

I guess I'm confused as to why you say that is a load of crap? Because she shouldn't have those feelings? Because I shouldn't put up with her having those feelings?

 

 

 

To be honest, I'm lost as to what new actions I should be following. She already has her own place, so I don't need to pack her stuff. She's been out for a while. I have full access to her emails and phone. I can check it whenever I want. I'm still doing my own things (gym, going out) so those are what I consider new actions since D-Day.

 

But if I'm considering reconciliation, are some of my new actions setting those boundaries?

- If you see him again, we're done.

- If you sleep with him, we're done.

 

Some boundaries I have told her are with her running group. He still goes there and I told her that if she wants to go there, then we're done. Same with her yoga class. Both have been honored so far.

 

It may be better to NOT say stuff you might not "want" to stand by. Case in point, if this romance was so deep she had to have "good-by" sex with this man, AFTER you forbade her, she will see him again - she just won't get caught.

 

I'd avoid the "never" ultimatum" if you are cannot going to stand by them. You can say the same thing without it being an ultimatum:

 

Sleeping with other men outside the marriage is unacceptable.

Seeing this man again will put your relationship with me is serious jeporody.

 

Saying the statements like that are less threatening, and a bit mysterious. The other method is like talking to a child, in my opinion. And this gives you and "out" if YOU" choose to tolerate an indescresion like you did last week (which I think we all agree could be entirely possible based on your track record). Of course, I'm not encouraging you to tolerate her conduct again, but I want you to preserve your self-respect as much as possible.

 

Those are my thoughts today, and I appreciate your latest responses, esspecially to 2Sunny, that is how I got this idea. Yas

 

Get my drift? Cause she could accidentally run into him somewhere, truthfully.