Not trying harder.... am I wrong?

[izzybelle]

for some of us, or perhaps i should just speak for myself...

 

when the choice becomes picking between continuing in a "toxic" relationship because you've made those vows or being able to be a good mother to your children it's a no-brainer. and like it or not, there are situations out there like that for both men and women. some people are emotional vampires and over a number of years they suck the emotional and pyschological energy out of another person until there is virtually nothing left. unless you've been there, you may not understand it and it is difficult to explain. but when you are left as a virtual shell of what you once were, sometimes the only option is to be selfish. but then again if you take care of yourself for the sake of your children are you really being all that selfish? i was in counseling and the outcome was not that it saved my marriage but it saved me from a lifetime of emptiness and gave my children back the mother they deserved. and while i hated hurting the man i made those promises to, there was no hope that the relationship would change and become healthy, it never had been, i just didn't see it until it was almost too late for me.

 

i am by no means saying that all broken marriages fit into this category. i just believe that limiting the valid reasons for divorce to things like abuse, pedophilia and the like may not be enough. and while i could argue that the above situation i described is emotional abuse, it's a hard concept for many to understand. there are no physical signs, no external bruises or broken bones and all too frequently the "injured" spouse is simply accused of being overly sensitive.

[findinmyway]

I don't want to seem rude, but that is the weakest argument I have ever heard in my life! If it is the demands, and stress of your two income family, find a hobby that relieves your stress. I am not saying there are never grounds for divorce, there most certainly are. Abuse, peadophilia, etc. The biggies. I have talked to SO many couples. It is natural to fall in and out of love during a relationship. In fact, it generally comes in four year cycles. there is some book out there that talks about this, I think it is called Anatomy of Love.

 

I don't recall from your previous posts, but have you tried counseling?

 

I didn't say it was stress of two family income. It is stress and demands from a faster lifestyle in general and it does affect many things about the way we lives our lives today, including how we handle relationships.

 

I'm not sure if you are asking me if I have tried counseling. If you are--yes, my husband and I feverantly went through counseling. And, I can tell you firsthand that for reasons other than selfishness and the four year phenomenon, it is possible for someone to no longer love their spouse the way a spouse should be loved. And, it is possible for a married couple, who at one time could have overcome trial and tribulation, to reach a point that that is just no longer possible.

[rble618740]

I am really interested in this topic. I am a firm believer in not divorcing but, instead, trying, trying, trying. I know you can get lots of opinions on that in different threads on this website. I'm not going to bog you down with a diatribe about the wrongfulness of giving in. I would, however, welcome any questions any of you may have about the "don't give up" school of thought.

[Quilly]

Marriage is like a new pair of shoes... they look really good in the store, you try them on for awhile and they seem to be a good fit...

 

but then you get them home, you wear them for awhile longer and you find out that they hurt your feet... but you keep wearing them in hopes that they'll "break in" and will eventually feel good...

 

more times passes and your feet are killing you and the shoes are looking less attractive to you by the day.... you're limping around now, quit doing all the things you once enjoyed, lose touch with your friends and yourself because you can't think beyond how much your feet are hurting and wonder if it will ever get better...

 

you try to talk to the shoes... let them know it's not working out, but they never seem to hear what your saying... you try to stretch them, mold them, change them... but in the end, the shoes are what they are... nothing is going to change that....

 

and then one day you realize that you really don't like those shoes anymore and you decide then and there that you don't want to put your feet in those shoes ever again... it's just not worth it... but, gee, you did already pay for them...

 

So, do you live with your mistake forever? Do you go on living unhappily ever after, unable to enjoy the wonderful people and things going on around you because the reality of your life in those shoes depresses the hell out of you? Do you really have to pay for your mistake by giving up your life?

 

People make mistakes everyday... why is it we can live and learn from our mistakes in regards to everything but marriage? How is it any different than any other legally binding contract that can be broken when it no longer serves its purpose or fulfills the original intent?

 

Perhaps years of staying in a failing marriage has made me cynical... I'm just not willing to be a martyr for the sake of having the traditional family unit. I would love to give that to my children, but not at the cost of giving up myself. I think my kids will understand that when they get older... and hopefully they'll learn from it and make better choices.

[immoralist]

Do you really have to pay for your mistake by giving up your life?

 

People make mistakes everyday... why is it we can live and learn from our mistakes in regards to everything but marriage?

 

 

Quilly, that is some of the finest writing I've seen on these boards.

 

Outstanding.

[Quilly]

Thank you... I guess I have learned a few things since hanging out here on LS.

 

Just for fun, here are some thoughts of other's as related to the topic:

 

Love in marriage should be the accomplishment of a beautiful dream, and not, as it too often is, the end. -- Alphonse Karr

 

There is no disguise that can for long conceal love where it exists or simulate it where it does not. --Francois De La Rochefoucauld

 

Whether life is worth living depends on whether there is love in life. --R. D. Laing

 

Marriage isn't a process of prolonging the life of love, but of mummifying the corpse. --Sir Pelham Grenville Wodehouse

 

The difficulty with marriage is that we fall in love with a personality, but must live with a character. --Peter De Vries

[rble618740]

I guess where I have a problem with your analogy is that, you can't do anything about your feet. You can, however, make some changes to yourself to fit better into your marriage. Some people don't believe you can, or should, change who you are for someone else. I disagree, in some cases. We all have flaws. Many times we are aware of them before we get married, but working on them is more of a hobby than a necessity. When you get married, you are faced head-on with some of those flaws (as is your mate). For what it's worth, my opinion is that a lot of people end marriages because their focus is on what their spouse is not giving them that they feel entitled to. If their focus and scrutiny were on how they could be a better spouse, even when they think they've already done way more than their share, they may find that their spouse responds positively. In my very humble opinion, whatever causes someone to leave a marriage is likely to haunt them down the road. I think that if someone is unhappy, they are the only person responsible for that unhappines. You can run from what you think is "making" you unhappy, but whoever you meet down the road is going to have faults and do things that will "make" you unhappy. The answer, in my opinion, is to not be so reactionary and, instead, learn to be happy despite your spouses actions. That doesn't mean endangering yourself, but - what I'm suggesting is that, before you make that leap, analyze whteerh you have REALLY investigated your part of the problem.

[izzybelle]

rble, yes, you make some valid points and yes, i agree that we are responsible for our own unhappiness but that's partly where the problem with your argument lies. and i understand your points about changing ourselves to make "us" the better spouse. but when you do that for years and years that too begins to take it's toll. when you've changed yourself so much to be a better spouse that you lose sight of who you are, i can't agree with you that it's worth it at that point.

 

everyone changes over time and yes, there's a lot to be said for being able to accept another's faults but when you spend so much time and energy compensating for that person's faults and adjusting your personality and lifestyle and possibly beliefs to be that person's better half, you become just that, their better half, but no longer you. i was faced with that. i spent years of my life picking up the pieces of the mess my ex would leave behind because he was too selfish to realize that there were other's around. i had to keep track of what lies he had told to what people so i'd know which version of which story they knew. i had to keep track of his schedule, my schedule and my kids schedule and if something feel through the cracks, it was always my fault. honestly, i got tired of changing myself to try to be the "good" or "better" spouse. and yes, many focus on what makes them unhappy and leave a marriage because of that. but marriage is a two-way street. and while you have a point, that's where it falls short. when you lose sight of who you are because you've tried so hard to be someone else for your spouse, it eats aways at you until eventually there is nothing left of who you were. and sure, some would argue that in marriage you're supposed to become "one" but he** i happen to like who i am and have no desire to go back to being his better half so he can do as he pleases knowing that someone will always be there to pick up the pieces.

 

and while i hope i have a long life ahead of me i cannot imagine a time or situation when my decision to leave my marriage will come back to haunt me. quite the opposite. even though there are parts of my life that are a mess right now, they are MY mess, not his and that is more empowering than you could ever imagine. i know that if i'm ever with someone again, i will have to accept their faults and change parts of who i am. but my hope is that i find someone who's also willing to do that for me so that i don't have to give up all of me! compromise is key, and i personally don't think that's asking too much!

[Quilly]

Sorry but again I disagree... as with the shoe, you can try lots of ways to compensate for the shape and size of your foot, but it will always essentially be the same.

 

As was the case in the original tale of Cinderella... the stepsister cut off her heel to make the slipper fit. The Prince realized from her bleeding foot that she wasn't his real bride. So ultimately the stepsister's sacrifice didn't win her the happily ever... because no matter how much she wanted it to be, she couldn't become someone she was not.

[meanon]

a lot of people end marriages because their focus is on what their spouse is not giving them that they feel entitled to. If their focus and scrutiny were on how they could be a better spouse, even when they think they've already done way more than their share, they may find that their spouse responds positively. In my very humble opinion, whatever causes someone to leave a marriage is likely to haunt them down the road. I think that if someone is unhappy, they are the only person responsible for that unhappiness. You can run from what you think is "making" you unhappy, but whoever you meet down the road is going to have faults and do things that will "make" you unhappy.

 

My experience is the opposite, that a lot of people at the end of marriages are focused on their own inability to love their spouse any longer. They spend years trying to in the hope that the love will return, that it's a phase, a bad patch.

 

Everyone has faults, you love despite them and often because of them. That's not what causes unhappiness and finishes marriages. Faults are trivial compared to the void at the centre of a marriage that's dead.

 

It's not your spouse, their faults or actions that make you unhappy, although sometimes they are part of the story of a marriage gone wrong. It's the lack of emotional intimacy and the distress that this absence of feeling towards your spouse causes you. It's having to choose between causing your spouse pain or living with a lack of emotional integrity. Being alone brings relief. It's not the case that all those who are unhappily married lack the emotional resources to find happiness in their own lives.

" to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, till death do us part"

You can stick with it through the good and bad, through changing fortune and health. Sometimes it's enough and love returns. Sometimes you know it's gone for good, vow or no vow. That's life. Blaming people, society, the institution of marriage are all distractions, in my view, from the fact that people sometimes fall out of love and know that their lives and those of their families will never be the same again, no matter what they choose to do.

[immoralist]

Everyone has faults, you love despite them and often because of them. That's not what causes unhappiness and finishes marriages. Faults are trivial compared to the void at the centre of a marriage that's dead.

 

The problem with a failed marriage is the Difference of Opinion at the marriage's center. One partner believes the marriage is dead, yet his partner insists that the marriage is alive. Who's right? Is anyone? Does it even matter? This very difference in how the marriage is experienced is symptomatic of the gulf that divides spouses.

 

When such a fundamental difference of opinion exists over the very viability of the marriage that union, by definition, is code blue.

 

Marriage is the one arrangement that others--those external to the marriage--feel compelled to urge the woefully unhappy spouses to soldier on for( here, you can just fill in the blank: kids, society, vows, god,etc.). But those "others" do not experience the crushing loneliness, the painful estrangement and aching emptiness of a marriage in intensive care. It is in this debate that I see the great divide between those actors who suffer deeply and intensely in crippled marriages and the ultra-moral Dr. Phils who are either unmarried themselves or in satisfactory arrangements.

 

This experiential divide makes dialogue difficult because if you cannot be talked into loving someone again; then neither can you be guilted into doing so. One cannot pretend to be contentedly married forever. One cannot feign love, forever. Nor should one.

 

Marriage is static; people aren't. Sometimes people change so much over time that the marriage no longer fits. It's best for all concerned that this does not happen, but like death and taxes it does.

 

I suspect that people, rather than getting out of marriages too quickly, stay in bad marriages MUCH too long. A crushingly unhappy spouse shouldn't have to forever live up to unrealistic marital expectations. Rather,marriage should meet the unhappy spouse's realistic expectations. Why is it that people fail marriage, but marriage can never fail people? Why does marriage warrant such immunity?

 

We must ALWAYS remember that marriage exists for people; people do not exist for marriage.

[Quilly]

This experiential divide makes dialogue difficult because if you cannot be talked into loving someone again; then neither can you be guilted into doing so.

 

Well said as always... guilt can be a powerful tool in holding someone in a marriage. What people don't seem to realize is that in trying to accomplish their short term goal of keeping the marriage together, in the long run the guilt just serves to make that marital divide larger and even more insurmountable. They're really just shooting themselves in the foot...

[brandx]

I have been following this thread because so much of it is pertintent to my life and figured I would chip in now because I have had my weekly dressing down by my STBX on this topic. I would like to submit, for consideration of all, including the Dr. Phil's, as Immoralist has termed them, that trying harder is one of those concepts that I would put in the category of "doing the right thing". The problem with this, and other such concepts that fall into this category, such as staying together for the kids, getting married because there is a pregnancy, or social pressure, is that in the course of "doing the right thing" it seems that it rarely ever is the right thing for all involved. It almost always seems to involve the sacrifice of someone's core to accomplish what the rest of the people in that one's life consider the "right thing".

 

In this case in particular, trying harder, it is the same way. My ex has been talking to me regularly about this. Saying I didn't try hard enough, or try everything. This concept, though, seems to be one of the fundamental reasons that my marriage, and others in this same boat I would suspect, fail. Similar to what Immoralist is pointing out. Most of our ex's or family or friends want us to try harder. Let's dig deeper at that. What they are truly asking for, in no uncertain terms, is for us to try harder to change ourselves. To be who they want us to be. Most of the people making this accusation are not seeing any fault on their own part, or the part of the other spouse, because the other spouse is willing to "keep trying". What is that definition of insanity? "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, but expecting different results" or something to that effect. How much harder can I try? What have we been doing all this time, and look where we are at?

 

Where does it make any sense for me to try harder at being someone other than myself? At sacrificing who I am? Again and again the enders among us are hit with "if you would only try harder" by our SO's, but I have never heard a sincere "If only THEY would try harder", or when my ex is speaking, she has never said "if only I would try harder". Most of the other parties, the individuals being left, only want to look at the enders' behavior or the decision that we have made to end the marriage. They refuse to look at their own behavior that has contributed to the breakdown, only seeing that we will not try hard enough. They are looking to place blame outside of themselves and the marriage on the ender. I will stand up and be the first to admit, that yes, I have have contributed fault to the breakdown. Yes, I could have been better at making this work during the marriage. And yes, I could continue to sacrifice myself on the altar of marriage until I am a lifeless corpse, all so that NO ONE ELSE has to hurt. But I submit that doing so would not only be bad for myself as an individual, but it would teach my children through environmentally learned behavior the wrong model of a loving couple, and my ex would forever be saddled with someone who does not want to be in that relationship with her. And I would continue to resent her not only for that, but for not putting in the effort, or in effect, not trying hard enough to meet my needs.

 

See, it would seem, that maybe no one is trying hard enough. Either while in the confines of the marriage or after to keep that marriage together. In effect, maybe both parties are enders. Maybe one of us is just strong enough to admit what we are doing and stop the act when we have had enough.

 

I think I have rambled enough. I hope that makes some sense and Iam open to comment, as always.

 

Be Well,

Brand X

[SoleMate]

Sometimes I think women don't really care or realize how hurtful a divorce is for men.

Sometimes I think men don't really care or realize how hurtful an empty marriage is for women.

 

Great "shoe" post by Quilly. But you write as if the eventual discomfort is inevitable. I don't believe it is. It's usually a result of neglect by one or both parties. It sounds as if your husband wants the comforts of marriage, which you are providing to him, yet he is either unwilling or maybe unable to give you what YOU want. Sounds like if he had only made a habit of listening to you, considering your feelings, and doing at least some of what you asked him for, that you would have been quite happy.

[izzybelle]

brandx,

 

WELL SAID!

 

And yes, I could continue to sacrifice myself on the altar of marriage until I am a lifeless corpse, all so that NO ONE ELSE has to hurt. But I submit that doing so would not only be bad for myself as an individual, but it would teach my children through environmentally learned behavior the wrong model of a loving couple, and my ex would forever be saddled with someone who does not want to be in that relationship with her. And I would continue to resent her not only for that, but for not putting in the effort, or in effect, not trying hard enough to meet my needs.

 

exactly what i felt. for some reason that i have never understood, so many people have said that leaving someone and asking for a divorce is the "easy way out." sure, in some respects it may be "easier" than continuing to try to make a hopeless marriage work. but there's only so much of banging your head against the wall that you can take before you realize that the wall isn't going to move. that it's you that has to either put up with pain, or find a different path. it is not an easy decision. and as you said...

 

Maybe one of us is just strong enough to admit what we are doing and stop the act when we have had enough.

[Quilly]

Great "shoe" post by Quilly. But you write as if the eventual discomfort is inevitable. I don't believe it is. It's usually a result of neglect by one or both parties. It sounds as if your husband wants the comforts of marriage, which you are providing to him, yet he is either unwilling or maybe unable to give you what YOU want. Sounds like if he had only made a habit of listening to you, considering your feelings, and doing at least some of what you asked him for, that you would have been quite happy.

 

No, I don't believe that discomfort is inevitable in every marriage. It's a gamble... some people find the perfect fit and it works... others are not as fortunate. Everyone takes a chance based on the what they know and feel about each other at that point in time. Unfortunately relationships evolve, circumstances change, and people grow, change, adapt, and cope to the best of their abilities. But you can only do so much... you still are who you are. If what you both bring to the marriage is not enough to hold it together then you have two choices... as brandx stated, you can sacrifice yourself on the altar of marriage for the sake of others at the expense of yourself (which it seems those that love you, truly love you, wouldn't want/ask you to do) or you can accept what isn't meant to be and seek out what is.

[rble618740]

I appreciate the pain and point of view that many of you have shared. I'm not trying to change any minds, but I am intrigued by the different schools of thought on whether to stay or leave a marriage. I read one post that said something like, it sounds like if your husband would have done a little bit of X then you would have been happy. It's this sort of reactionary positioning that I see as problematic. All of our marriage would be better off if we worked on being happy despite the fact that our spouse doesn't do X. It also sounds from the last post like having a good marriage is just a lucky event. I don't agree with that.

 

What if your child doesn't do ANY of what you ask him too? What if he is mean, disrespectful, and uncaring of your feelings? Do you give him up for adoption? I'm not being sarcastic but putting difficult kids up for an adoption is an option, but because most people would NEVER consider doing it, they learn to deal with the problems. I wonder what would happen if we took divorce off of the table as an option? What if your child engages in these behaviors as an adult - do you cut all ties? Probably, you will just love him without condoning his actions. You draw boundaries. You can do this with your spouse. If he lies to people, you don't have to lie for him to be a good wife. "Honey, I love you, but I don't agree with lying. I'm not going to lie for you anymore." Then, be happy, because you're not doing something you think is wrong, his actions aren't your actions - you can disassociate yourself from them. He is responsible for those actions, you are responsible for your feelings.

 

My husband left in June, after only 9 months of marriage. If you would have asked me on the day he left, I would have told you I was carrying 110% of our marital load. He wasn't working, he was drinking and gambling regularly, I felt like he was having a great time and I was stressed out from funding it. I learned a lot about myself when he left. I tried harder (which I didn't think was possible - or fair). He stayed on the fence about coming or going for a little while. I stayed the course. I kept working on me and not scrutinizing him. He came home in August and has become an amazing husband. The more I work on me and stop worrying about whether he's being a good husband, the more he becomes the perfect husband. I can't explain this phenomenon. It's been VERY hard. But...I've gained a wonderful husband who is making a living, has only drinks socially, has stopped gambling, and has been very caring. More importantly, I've done some things that I didn't think I could - I've been more patient, understanding, accountable, and in control of my emotions than I ever thought possible. If my husband decides tomorrow that he's finished with this marriage - I am so much better for having given when I thought I had nothing left to give, or - more accurately - when I thought I shouldn't have to give any more.

 

I don't think you should have to live in misery - I just think that whether you are miserable or not depends more on you than your marriage.

[blind_otter]

I was raised with a unique perspective on marriage. My mother was born and raised in a third world country in southeast asia, and she met and married my father there. They later moved back to the states.

 

My mother always said that one should never marry for love. She said to marry someone who I get along well with, who has a good work ethic, who will make pretty babies and be a good father.

 

I wonder why divorce rates are so much lower in countries where arranged marriages are more common? Is this because of a different expecation of marriage?

[izzybelle]

rble, do you have any children?

 

this may seem like an odd question, but i've tried to respond to your post comparing one's relationship with a spouse to their relationship with their children. i'm having a very difficult time putting into words why your comparison doesn't work. all i can say is that the relationship / bond you form with your children is unique, there is absolutely nothing like it, and there is also nothing to prepare you for the overwhelming emotions you feel the first time you hold that baby. (and i'm guessing the same emotions when you bond with an adopted child). at the time when my son was born, my marriage was doing well, but the feelings for my spouse vs. the feelings for my son didn't compare even then. i really can't describe it to you. and i suppose it doesn't matter. i'm not one for trying to save a toxic marriage. some situations are bad for everyone concerned and it's best for all involved to have a chance for true happiness with someone else.

 

as for your comments about the lying spouse....

If he lies to people, you don't have to lie for him to be a good wife. "Honey, I love you, but I don't agree with lying. I'm not going to lie for you anymore." Then, be happy, because you're not doing something you think is wrong, his actions aren't your actions - you can disassociate yourself from them

 

that sounds like such logical and simple advice and it should work. but remember, for some lying spouses, like mine, their world becomes a lie. they've told themselves the lie so many times that it, or whatever version of it they're telling at the time, becomes reality. i can't even begin to tell you how many times i tried saying what you've said above. and i tried saying it in what felt like hundreds of different ways. and each time i was met with the same response, "i'm not lying, that's what really happened." and then on the times when i would openly disagree with his "memory" of something in front of others, i would get nothing but grief for my "lies". it's a no win situation since the person who is a chronic or in some cases pathological liar doesn't see themselves as lying. of they just simply see nothing wrong with readjusting the truth to fit the situation.

 

i'm really happy for you that your situation has worked out the way it has. obviously you found something that worked to help you repair the damage. it's not always possible. sometimes it's the difference between fixing a dented fender or trying to fix a car that's been totalled. you can repair both but in the 2nd case, it may just not be worth the cost (emotionally, pyschologically and physically). and i know before someone takes that analogy further, no i'm not saying that it's ok to just trade in for a newer model when you feel like it!!!

[meanon]

In the societies that I know of where arranged marriage is common, there is little tolerance of divorce. I suspect the same is true elsewhere. I don't know what the divorce rate of arranged marriages in expat communities is, it would be interesting to compare it to that in the general population. I know of two, neither of which were healthy marriages by any standard.

[blind_otter]

Originally posted by meanon

In the societies that I know of where arranged marriage is common, there is little tolerance of divorce. I suspect the same is true elsewhere. I don't know what the divorce rate of arranged marriages in expat communities is, it would be interesting to compare it to that in the general population. I know of two, neither of which were healthy marriages by any standard.

 

It may have to do with the cultural context as well, arranged marriages in cultures which stress personal choice and love relationships in marriage would probably be less successful than arranged marriages that take place in cultures that frequently engage in those type of arrangements. I know of three arranged marriages that are relatively successful (admittedly these are all relatives of mine)

 

My uncle, on the other hand, used a marriage broker and when he went to pick up his bride she demanded that he sponsor about 10 of her various relatives to come to the US. He turned tail and ran, now he's going through a marriage broker in California.

[Quilly]

Definitely the the bond between a parent and a child is completely different from that between spouses... it provides no comparison. My parents can do terrible things but I will always love them and my children can turn into complete hellions and I'll still love them. It's an unconditional love because you are linked forever and always by blood, not paper.

 

Also, to clarify I don't think that a marriage is a lucky event, but it does take the good fortune of having commited to someone that is willing and able to grow with you and to work together with you to make a good marriage. One person cannot carry a marriage alone... at least I don't see how without a lot of anti-depressants and a good imagination.

 

To me, a part of what makes those two people work together well is mutual respect and appreciation. I can't imagine living with and loving someone who's behavior I cannot condone (such as lying). It would seem you are only lying to yourself in making yourself believe that it doesn't matter and that you can be happy regardless of your spouse. I guess I pretended for enough years that everything was fine and that I was happy... once the blinders came off and I saw what my life really was, I had to change it.

 

I would advocate for anyone who has any feelings left for their spouse to try to save the marriage, especially if there are children involved. But once those feeling are lost, and you know of nothing you can do to get them back, then you shouldn't have to stay in a failing marriage just for the sake of preserving an ideal.

[meanon]

What if your child engages in these behaviors as an adult - do you cut all ties? Probably, you will just love him without condoning his actions.

rble, if your child is a minor then you have an emotional life as an adult which is separate from them. They are also completely dependent on you and that dependence is one of the defining characteristics of the relationship. These are some of the features make parenting different from a marriage.

 

Many parents would not chose to live with an adult son or daughter whose behaviour they found distressing, even though they may continue to love them.

I stayed the course. I kept working on me and not scrutinizing him.

I agree, this strategy can lengthen marriages, long enough for it to improve in some cases. It's not a long term solution, as I believe you may have discovered had your husband not responded so positively.

 

If it doesn't work, there are costs, too. Despite open communication, the lack of expectation can be read as acceptance. As the situation worsens, it becomes avoidance. Those boundaries you mentioned keep getting drawn ever wider until in the end, there is hardly any meeting point as a couple. The break, when it comes, is all the more final for being well overdue. This leaves you with the regrets Quilly mentioned earlier, those of not being more direct in tackling the issues as make or break at the outset.

 

I don't think you should have to live in misery - I just think that whether you are miserable or not depends more on you than your marriage.

That's true in some cases, there is certainly a lot we can do to make our lives happier in most circumstances. There are also circumstances when, despite all these efforts, your marriage makes you miserable. Not you, your marriage.

[blind_otter]

I have a hard time seeing a relationship as an independent entity that can cause misery. The relationship does not and cannot exist without two people participated, whether or not their participation is functional. That's the definition of a relationship - isn't it?

 

I went to marriage counseling before my husband and I separated and the therapist kept emphasizing (because I was the one insisting that the marriage was dead) that the marriage involved the emotional connection between two people, and that I was basically being the dysfunctional one in our relationship.

 

Interestingly enough it was really my own experience with 1-on-1 therapy, more than my educational experience in psychology, that has re-emphasized this point to me.

 

There are measureable qualities that can very strongly determine the success rates of marriages - personal qualities that can be identified through personality measures. My husband and I actually took part in a 3-year longitudinal study on newlyweds held at the University of Florida, which is being run by my undergrad social psych. professor Benjamin Karney (results will probably be published w/in the next 5 years or so), and every time we went in for measures (he was testing the hypothesis that marital success is determined within the first 3 years) personality tests were part of the process.

 

Honestly, I feel like the failure rates for marriages are based on a flawed social model for marriage. We choose partners based on intangible and undefineable qualities and seem to think that "love" is a reason to be with someone. Quite simply, it isn't. A good marriage partner will probably have a variety of skills, such as social-communication skills, emotional maturity and control of his/her emotions, tolerance and affection towards you and others, respectful and egalitarian viewpoints, similar interests and values to your's, ability to be responsible and earn an adequate steady income, and effective problem-solving and conflict resolution ability.

 

Problem is, people don't ever attempt to be logical or methodical about choosing a life partner.

[findinmyway]

BO---you may have posted this earlier, I can't remember. Are you and your Husband still together?