brandx Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Originally posted by blind_otter Honestly, I feel like the failure rates for marriages are based on a flawed social model for marriage. We choose partners based on intangible and undefineable qualities and seem to think that "love" is a reason to be with someone. Quite simply, it isn't. A good marriage partner will probably have a variety of skills, such as social-communication skills, emotional maturity and control of his/her emotions, tolerance and affection towards you and others, respectful and egalitarian viewpoints, similar interests and values to your's, ability to be responsible and earn an adequate steady income, and effective problem-solving and conflict resolution ability. Problem is, people don't ever attempt to be logical or methodical about choosing a life partner. BO (of course, meaning blind otter, not body odor ) this is one of the most intelligent statements I have ever read about marriage. It gets to the heart of what goes wrong with so many marriages, in my opinion. I wish to God that someone had helped me understand this BEFORE I got married. I hope you don't mind, but I think I may boost this paragraph. I need to keep it in front of me to help me make sure I remember it in the future. Link to post Share on other sites
immoralist Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 BO, I agree with you to a point. The skill sets you enumerate are very important in maintaining a marriage. These skill sets , however, are a necessary but not, in my opinion, sufficient conditions for meaningfully partnering for life. We are more than the sum of our skill sets. A marriage is an affectional relationship. And when these affections undergo a seismic shift after 5, 10 or 20 years, is the estranged spouse necessarily "dysfunctional" as your therapist labeled it? Why is falling deeply, irretrievably out of love a blameworthy/dysfunctional event ? Is "dysfunctional" simply a pseudo-scientific synonym for "bad"? BO, you seem to subscribe to an engineering or business model for marriage. You refer to measurable qualities, method and logic. But people aren't calculators. A spouse is not a business partner. He or she is a person with whom most people want to maintain acceptable levels of intimacy and emotional connection. Feelings matter, and the chronic loss of feelings matters even more. A marriage is an irrational and at times anarchic affectional pairing, not a rational business enterprise.And with imperfectly controlled affection or feelings, there's always a risk of change, of loss over time.This affectional element is not the result of some "flawed social model" as you put. Rather, it flows from being human, and the quite legitimate expectations of the heart. To the extent such engineering/business models for marriage minimize or ignore the vagaries of the human heart, these models are flawed. I wish there were a science of the heart, an emotional logic. I really do. Alas, there is not, and never will be. Link to post Share on other sites
blind_otter Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Originally posted by findinmyway BO---you may have posted this earlier, I can't remember. Are you and your Husband still together? Yes, we are separated but still legally married. He is currently incarcerated in federal prison for growing pot, and will be for the next year, with work release at a halfway house in a different city after that. I have dated other people during this time (with embarrassing, longlasting, and serious consequences.... ...) yet he and I still maintain contact and continue to debate/discuss/digest the state of our "relationship", whatever that may be. The thing that makes a difference to me is that he has been consistently supportive of me throughout this process, and I have continued to make him and his relative comfort in prison a priority in my life. Both of us come from intact homes where our parents are extremely conservative, strict, and have been married 30+ years. I think this is what contibutes to our reluctance to divorce. We both seem to view it as a personal failure, which stems from cultural environment more than anything, I think. Honestly I don't think other people's divorces reflect on their character, but as with most people I am much harder on myself than I am on anyone else. But to laud Professor Karney's study, I think that our measures on how we coped with disagreements and our personal goals in life were disparate enough to indicate we had a low chance of success. My parents have approached their marriage with an extremely methodical and logical approach since they nearly divorced 18 years ago. I was7 at the time but remember it vividly. They were at the end of their rope and Dad was looking at apartments and all of a sudden, I think they went to counseling with a minister, they began to be very methodical and logical about everything. All the discussions at dinner between them were almost like conferences between "relationship engineers" - they discussed the structure of their marriage, analyzed weaknesses, addressed different methods to reinforce weak areas. Their relationship changed from a passionate but volatile one to a calm, friendly, companionate kind of relationship. Link to post Share on other sites
brandx Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Immoralist, I can see your point about marriage not being science, but I think that part of what BO was saying, or at least what I took out of it, is that too many people completely ignore some of the engineering type factors that can help ensure a successful marriage. I would agree with you that they are not sufficient unto themselves to sustain a marriage because humans are emotional creatures, but I would also follow that up with the fact that emotional feelings are not enough to sustain a marriage either. I think it makes sense that a combination of both of these things is what gives you the best chance at a successful marriage. Nothing is going to guarantee anything in this life, but not giving enough credence to either the emotional or the engineering side of a relationship, especially prior to marriage, is likely to lead to disaster I feel. This may be the point you were trying to make as well, I am not sure. Link to post Share on other sites
izzybelle Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 brandx, i think you're right, it's a combination of both that would make a marriage more successful. but somehow the thought of trying to find someone who meets all of those criteria feels daunting! i've met and dated and i guess married men who met one set but not the other, and none of those relationships have been very successful. i can see the personal ads now that would be several paragraphs long detailing all the qualities. and thinking back it's something i've struggled with. in some ways, finding someone who meets the engineering side makes more sense, my heart's been broken too many times. but the thought of never again feeling that rush of passion's fire is depressing! i know some find both and i guess those people are the lucky ones! Link to post Share on other sites
blind_otter Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 that's basically my feeling. At this point I am willing to sacrifice the surge of emotion for a more healthy, "engineered" relationship. When I was in undergrad, and in high school, I was addicted to that rush. I based most of my relationships on love rather than practicality...the people I have been involved with all met some but never all of the criteria I listed, and all ended in spectacular failures. I am on the verge of forcing potential mates to fill out a questionnaire. Link to post Share on other sites
izzybelle Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 if you come up with a questionairre i'd love to see it!! but of course to meet the emotional side of the criteria there may have to be a lengthy interview to go with it yes, there is a part of me too as i look toward the rest of my life that would love to find someone to fit the engineering side, someone i could depend on. like you, i was, and perhaps still am addicted to that rush. and whether it's an addition or not, i'm an incredibly passionate person and that's a big part of who i am. my fear would be that if i found someone who met the engineering side, and denied the importance of the other side, that i'd be forever tempted to find someone to fill the other side. guess i'm not ready to give up on that part of me yet... maybe when i'm 90! Link to post Share on other sites
brandx Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 The key is to have a good balance, I think. No one is going to meet all of the criteria. I would bet that neither you, nor I, nor BO, or ANYONE can meet every criteria. The important thing is having that criteria, understand the priority of each part of the criteria, and measuring the relationship based on those priorities. Maybe for you, passion is an 8 on a scale of 1-10 and similar interests are a 3, where for someone else they are reversed. So in searching, you weight the passion more heavily than similar interests as you court potential partners. It cannot be set in stone, but I think the criteria is an exceptional tool to get you going in the right direction. Too many people think they "are in love" and have that rush, and for them, they then rush into marriage, commitment, whatever. Not enough people appreciate the value of taking their time and ensuring a proper fit until it is too late. Even then, many people do not remember this for the next time around. Link to post Share on other sites
izzybelle Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 brandx, i'm sure you're right. except that on a scale of 1-10 for me passion's about a 15 ! but yes, it is so, so possible to get caught in that rush and completely ignore the other things, that as time goes on and some (or all) of that rush fades, would help a marriage sustain on a day to day basis. so you end up feeling empty and unhappy. weighting things makes sense but it is hard to give up on the hope that there's someone out there who would meet them all. i know that's unrealistic but hey, a girl's gotta dream! Link to post Share on other sites
brandx Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Izzy, Believe me, I am all for dreaming. And I would NEVER suggest that anyone settle. You just have to work your way through it with each prospective partner with those criteria in mind, never ignoring any of them. Someone will either fit or not, and you decide based on that. All of that being said, I forgot to address one point you all made up above, or a comment. You talked about a questionairre jokingly. I have to admit that I have begun operating on an almost "reverse" questionairre. I basically have gotten together in my thoughts all of the points that I feel are critical that someone know about me and that I think are relevant during the beginning, middle and later stages of a relationship. And I just lay it on the table at each stage. So when I meet someone I click with and would consider something further, I come out and say "Ok, this is who I am, and if it is not right for you, that is fine, because not everyone works together, but you need to know this up front and be ok with it". And then I I talk about the things that I feel are important given the stage of the situation. Don't get me wrong, I am not telling someone that I do or do not want children with them on day 1; you talk about things based on the appropriate level of the relationship. But it has worked for me so far. I think too often we are too worried about rejection to just lay it out there and we want to test each other out and get a feel for who the other is before we show each other our true selves. But I decided a long time ago that I am way sick of playing games, and that is really all that holding back is. And what the h**l, it is better to get that stuff on the table early so that you don't waste time and end up hurt by it in 6 months. So I think the idea of a questionairre is not a completely obtuse concept, just depends on how you apply it. Link to post Share on other sites
izzybelle Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 brandx, you're right and i think in many ways i find myself much more open with people than i would have ever considered in my younger days. and as much as the rush is still a big thing, if it's not going anywhere then, as you said, why waste the time. it's funny that a while ago i was talking to a male friend of mine who was talking about how his marriage was failing and how unhappy he was. we were having a very pleasant open conversation and all of a sudden he started firing questions at me. i don't remember all of them but whether or not i made my own spaghetti sauce was one of them. i must have looked puzzled because after looking embarrassed for a minute he laughed and apologized. he said he felt like he was "interviewing" me! we had a good laugh about it but it really in some ways makes sense. if there are things that are important to you or about you that you want to know about or want other's to expect, why waste the time. and evidentally to him the sauce thing was a deal breaker! Link to post Share on other sites
brandx Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Not that I really want to laugh at what is important to anyone else; that would be totally rude, but that one is pretty hilarious. I am going to add something like that to my list Me: "Do you prefer sausage or bacon" Her: "ummm, bacon?" Me: "Screw you, sausage rules. You're gone!" Sheesh, I'm killing myself over here. Sorry. Great story, though. Link to post Share on other sites
izzybelle Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 and then we could add those other wonderful things like which way do you want the toilet paper to come off the roll and do you put the seat down and we'll be all set!!!! :lmao: :lmao: it is funny, but hey, if it's a deal breaker... i, however, prefer bacon! sorry!!! Link to post Share on other sites
brandx Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 no, wait, I like bacon better too! I just got confused, really! And I can make my own sauce -- my last name is Prego. I am right for you, I swear it. This is excellent, bye the way. I could laugh at this all day. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Quilly Posted October 27, 2004 Author Share Posted October 27, 2004 Ahhh... another match made in cyberspace... how sweet. I hope you enjoy many bacon-filled years together!!! Link to post Share on other sites
izzybelle Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 brandx, ok, i'm sold.... now about that passion part ..... Link to post Share on other sites
brandx Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 Originally posted by Quilly Ahhh... another match made in cyberspace... how sweet. I hope you enjoy many bacon-filled years together!!! Wait, Quilly, which do you like? Now I have to know. You were my first cyberlove. It was the nipple thing that did it I think! Originally posted by izzybelle brandx, ok, i'm sold.... now about that passion part ..... Uh, we could have a problem here. You mean bacon isn't passionate? Link to post Share on other sites
izzybelle Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 bacon and passion....hmmm it does have possibilities given the grease level but then there's that whole thing about bad things that happen from undercooked bacon so, i don't know.... of course if it's bacon and eggs in bed, we might have a deal and hey, if you and quilly are already involved we'd better move this to the infidelity or OM/OW section for further discussion. Link to post Share on other sites
brandx Posted October 27, 2004 Share Posted October 27, 2004 I tend to think that bacon would be pretty low on the passion scale, but I never thought of it from the breakfast in bed angle. Damn, you are like a laser on the passion! I can't say if we were involved until I know which she likes better....she still has not answered. Regardless, she is still one of my favorites. ALthough, I prefer to stay out of the OW/OM arena -- I've spent too much time there and that can get too painful. Link to post Share on other sites
Author Quilly Posted October 27, 2004 Author Share Posted October 27, 2004 Sorry... I was trying to give you two some space. I'm not one to break up a party... but I'd be happy to join in if you know what I mean... There! Now we've officially turned this into an X-rated thread. Of course, the nipples might already have done that. Anyways... to the question at hand... bacon or sausage? Do I have to choose? What if I like both? And does it just have to be breakfast in bed or can we mix it up and have at lunch in the dining room? Link to post Share on other sites
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