Do you STILL think your "looks" are holding you back? (for the Struggling Fellas)

[JuneJulySeptember]

I think this is a much better inspirational story, actually.

 

Treacher Collins makes UK man Jono Lancaster's life a challenge - What's On Xiamen

 

She's damn cute too.

[JuneJulySeptember]

Let's spin this around. Is negativity an attractive quality? How has negativity enriched your lives, whether romantically or otherwise?

 

It's not good, but many, many negative people who are physically attractive or average have no problems attracting people. Boy, do I have stories for you about that.

 

Sometimes I think LS compares apples to oranges. Being less negative and focusing on what makes you happy outside of dating is a good idea. Thinking it will make you more attractive to the opposite/same sex is not.

[Star Gazer]

It's not good, but many, many negative people who are physically attractive or average have no problems attracting people. Boy, do I have stories for you about that.

 

Sometimes I think LS compares apples to oranges. Being less negative and focusing on what makes you happy outside of dating is a good idea. Thinking it will make you more attractive to the opposite/same sex is not.

 

I don't agree. Being happy outside of dating WILL make you more attractive to the opposite sex.

[Mr_Flay]

I don't agree. Being happy outside of dating WILL make you more attractive to the opposite sex.

 

I wish with all my heart this were true. Right now I'm going through one of the best periods in my life. I have a great job that I've always wanted, I have enough money, I've got fun hobbies for my body, mind and soul, I'm generally a happy person. Still no dates, girls still reject me, even if they know all that. I know what's wrong; I have no game whatsoever. And that's holding me back. I feel that no number of hobbies is going to make girls more attracted to me. It's more what I say to them or how I make them feel. Being generally happy in life just isn't enough.

[USMCHokie]

I wish with all my heart this were true.

 

...

 

Being generally happy in life just isn't enough.

 

I'm going to dissect Star's post a little here:

 

I don't agree. Being happy outside of dating WILL make you more attractive to the opposite sex.

 

Notice the use of the word more. She says it will make you more attractive. She doesn't say it will make you attractive; rather it will make you more attractive than you previously were.

 

I will use the generally hated 1-10 scale to illustrate. We'll assume the threshold for being deemed attractive is a 7. If you are a 2 and become happy with yourself, you become more attractive and raise your number by 2, leaving you at a 4. You are more attractive, but still not attractive enough to be deemed attractive. If you are a 6 and get raised by 2, you are now an 8; therefore, one on the cusp of attractiveness breaks through and becomes attractive. Finally, if you are a 7 and get raised by 2, you are now a 9. You were already attractive, but now you're even more attractive than before.

 

So therefore, you can be "more attractive" and still be unattractive. And I agree that it helps, but alone, it isn't enough.

[BeholdtheMan]

If your a 4 or 5 you ain't banging a 9 or 10

4 or 5 overall or just 4 or 5 in the looks department?

 

On a biological level, men are attracted to feminine women and women are attracted to masculine men (surprise surprise)

 

Masculine/feminine traits can be divided into physical and non-physical categories.

 

Men place a lot more weight on the physical category. We're attracted to women with very feminine physical characteristics. Large breasts, round hips/butt, slender waist, delicate youthful facial features etc.

 

If the woman has a lot of non-physical feminine traits, that's a bonus, i.e. she's gentle, caring/nurturing, sweet etc.

 

Overall, men still value physical beauty more than any non-physical traits.

 

In my experience, women value physical and non-physical traits much more equally. They look for both physical and non-physical masculine traits in a man. If the guy is tall, muscular, chiseled face etc. Yeah, that's a huge plus...but women also place a lot of value on a man's confidence, charisma, boldness, mental fortitude, ambition, wealth, status, power, leadership ability, etc.

 

It's much easier for men to overcome a deficiency in the looks department. As men, we have more areas to work on. It's much harder for women to make up for poor looks.

[USMCHokie]

It's much easier for men to overcome a deficiency in the looks department. As men, we have more areas to work on. It's much harder for women to make up for poor looks.

 

I absolutely agree with this.

[Mr_Flay]

I will use the generally hated 1-10 scale to illustrate.

 

Hmph! I refuse to talk about human attractiveness in terms of an arbitrary number on a scale between 1 and 10. That's just wrong on so many levels. Wrong on more than 10 levels, actually. Person B says Person A is a 4. Person C says person A is a 7. Who is in the right? Most likely they're both wrong.

[Eternal Sunshine]

I am the most negative person in the world and my cat still loves me

[USMCHokie]

Hmph! I refuse to talk about human attractiveness in terms of an arbitrary number on a scale between 1 and 10. That's just wrong on so many levels. Wrong on more than 10 levels, actually. Person B says Person A is a 4. Person C says person A is a 7. Who is in the right? Most likely they're both wrong.

 

Well, the point is still the same. You can get more attractive and still be unattractive.

[irc333]

Well, the point is still the same. You can get more attractive and still be unattractive.

 

Is there not such thing as universal attractiveness?

[USMCHokie]

Is there not such thing as universal attractiveness?

 

What do you mean by "universal attractiveness"...?

[Revolver]

I don't know any dude who's handsome or attractive that struggles getting girls, but 99% of the men who have little success with women are below average or flat out unnactractive. You guys probably think They ALL just happened to have no "confidence", that's all.

 

Looks play a MAJOR factor in females choosing which males to date.

[Eternal Sunshine]

I don't know any dude who's handsome or attractive that struggles getting girls, but 99% of the men who have little success with women are below average or flat out unnactractive. You guys probably think They ALL just happened to have no "confidence", that's all.

 

Looks play a MAJOR factor in females choosing which males to date.

 

Unfortunately this is true. I was at a work function recently and speed dating was going on at the same venue. Majority of men were below average looking.

[Emilia]

I don't know any dude who's handsome or attractive that struggles getting girls, but 99% of the men who have little success with women are below average or flat out unnactractive. You guys probably think They ALL just happened to have no "confidence", that's all.

 

Looks play a MAJOR factor in females choosing which males to date.

I do. There is one in my office. He does have a girlfriend currently but he is very shy so he is holding onto her. He is good looking, I see how women look at him in the pub. He is painfully shy however. I can think of 3 good looking shy men top of my head who struggle with women.

[USMCHokie]

I don't know any dude who's handsome or attractive that struggles getting girls, but 99% of the men who have little success with women are below average or flat out unnactractive. You guys probably think They ALL just happened to have no "confidence", that's all.

 

You can generally assess the validity of an argument by testing the validity of its contrapositive.

 

Original argument: If you have confidence, then you will get women.

Contrapositive: If you do not get women, then you don't have confidence.

 

Looks play a MAJOR factor in females choosing which males to date.

 

Precisely. However, I'd caveat that it is of most importance in initial attraction and assessment of "dateworthiness." If a woman has already otherwise chosen a man, then looks play a diminishing role of importance.

[USMCHokie]

I do. There is one in my office. He does have a girlfriend currently but he is very shy so he is holding onto her. He is good looking, I see how women look at him in the pub. He is painfully shy however. I can think of 3 good looking shy men top of my head who struggle with women.

 

This first step in this exercise is to identify a common definition for "struggle with women." I'd bet a dollar (nay, 2 dollars...nay, 2 pounds! ) that Revolver meant "struggle with women" to mean having difficulty initially attracting them, while Emilia in her infinite wisdom defines it as having difficulty dating and retaining them in relationships.

[Emilia]

This first step in this exercise is to identify a common definition for "struggle with women." I'd bet a dollar (nay, 2 dollars...nay, 2 pounds! ) that Revolver meant "struggle with women" to mean having difficulty initially attracting them, while Emilia in her infinite wisdom defines it as having difficulty dating and retaining them in relationships.

Nope, not this time

 

This particular colleague didn't have any kind of girl until he was 22, ie he was a virgin until that age. We were having one of those drunken conversations in the pub with a group of us and I asked some probing 'LS' style questions, that's how I know

 

Even now he is scared he would remain without a woman if they broke up and this guy gets chatted up by girls in the pub

 

Maybe he thinks women ask for his number as a joke?

[USMCHokie]

If you are looking only for a hookup then your physical attractiveness will play a much larger role.

 

I actually feel like the opposite would be true...that is, those looking for a relationship would value physical attractiveness more because you're going to be spending a lot more time with someone in a relationship than someone in a fling...so wouldn't you want them to be as good looking as possible...? Whereas with a hookup, you just leave in the morning and never have to see them again, so wouldn't physical attractiveness matter less?

[USMCHokie]

Even now he is scared he would remain without a woman if they broke up and this guy gets chatted up by girls in the pub

 

Maybe he thinks women ask for his number as a joke?

 

And this is why I think evidence of success is so important in building the basis of confidence...

[Emilia]

But they're drunk. When they sober up they will treat it as a joke most times. Even funnier is when they expect him to call first but they are the only one with the digits.

No we are not always boozed up in the pub, sometimes just pop in for a quick drink after work and leave before 7pm. He will go out for a cigarette (you can't smoke inside in the UK) and girls will be chatting to him.

 

I've no idea how many numbers he gets, that comment was an inside joke

[Emilia]

And this is why I think evidence of success is so important in building the basis of confidence...

Sometimes I think the issue is that the 'evidence of success' isn't seen as such and it gets brushed aside as 'oh I think she went with me because of X,Y,Z and not because I'm desirable'.

 

As you know I think one's upbringing and early socialisation style have a huge impact on self-value later in life.

[Mr_Flay]

99% of the men who have little success with women are below average or flat out unnactractive.

 

Well, there's "unattractive", and then there's "not attractive". The former has some physical flaws that makes people characterise him/her as "ugly", the latter is not repulsive to look at, doesn't have unattractive facial features, but at the same time lacks those things that spark instant attraction.

[USMCHokie]

Sometimes I think the issue is that the 'evidence of success' isn't seen as such and it gets brushed aside as 'oh I think she went with me because of X,Y,Z and not because I'm desirable'.

 

Indeed, because in similar situations in the guy's past, that is what actually happened. So when you put your hand on a hot stove, and it's always hot, what do you expect to happen when you put your hand on that stove the next time?

 

As you know I think one's upbringing and early socialisation style have a huge impact on self-value later in life.

 

Absolutely; and it's why I so heavily discount the "just have confidence" advice given to adult men who never experienced that early socialization and "success" while they were growing up as kids. If you wake up every day and see the sky is blue, you're going to expect the sky is blue the next morning you wake up. If someone tells you the sky is actually red, no amount of "confidence" will be convincing enough to make you believe the sky is red until you wake up and see a red sky.

[USMCHokie]

Well, there's "unattractive", and then there's "not attractive". The former has some physical flaws that makes people characterise him/her as "ugly", the latter is not repulsive to look at, doesn't have unattractive facial features, but at the same time lacks those things that spark instant attraction.

 

Wouldn't all "unattractive" people be inherently "not attractive" since they too lack the things that spark instant attraction...?