No scientific proof of god

[TaxAHCruel]

If my intent was to engage you in a debate of "proof" and I shyed away, then you would be correct. I have engaged in no such debate because I understand the futility of speaking about spiritual things through a natural medium/route.

 

That too sounds like a bit of a cop out as can just assert what you like on any thread and then just hide behind this duck+dive having done so. But it is of no real import to me. There is utility in calling people out on baseless assertions and that is done now.

 

If / when you do in the future find any arguments, evidence, data or reasoning to substantiate the claim there is a god then all I can do is ask that you let me know what it is at that time. That you have none _now_ is no surprise to me given I have been asking a LOT of people for over 18 years now with the same result. Or lack of result as it were.

[M30USA]

That too sounds like a bit of a cop out as can just assert what you like on any thread and then just hide behind this duck+dive having done so. But it is of no real import to me. There is utility in calling people out on baseless assertions and that is done now.

 

If / when you do in the future find any arguments, evidence, data or reasoning to substantiate the claim there is a god then all I can do is ask that you let me know what it is at that time. That you have none _now_ is no surprise to me given I have been asking a LOT of people for over 18 years now with the same result. Or lack of result as it were.

 

Not a cop out. Just trying to save you time. I have never met a single person who became a believer due to scientific evidence. Not have I ever seen a person leave the faith due to lack of scientific evidence. Science is merely a side issue and the main issue is always emotional or based on feelings, possibly due to past experiences.

[M30USA]

Religion is the study of how to be a hypocrite and get away with it, or so it seems in America.

 

I'll agree with that.

[TaxAHCruel]

Not a cop out. Just trying to save you time.

 

Thanks, but I will worry about my time and you worry about yours. I am quite content with how I invest mine. I do not mind investing it in exploring the claims of others. I also do not mind investing it in calling people on unsubstantiated assertions so that everyone can see them run. There is utility in both.

 

I have never met a single person who became a believer due to scientific evidence.

 

You should sit and talk with floundering lecturer John Lennox and Militant Homophobe Dinesh D'Souza then - to name but two of many examples. Both of whom seem to think that science led them to god.

 

However to re-iterate something I have said more than once in this thread already - I have in no way limited my side of the discourse to "Scientific evidence". It is you and your cohorts - not I - who insist on bringing science into it all the time. I never mention it.

 

Nothing I have said even implies that criteria. I quite clearly said I would consider ANY "arguments, evidence, data or reasoning" on the subject. Where in that people find cause to keep bringing up scientific evidence specifically is beyond me.

[TheFinalWord]

One needs but to look toward the heavens, stare at the Milky Way, see the birth of a child, a kitten, a puppy, hold such in their hands, study mathematics, physics, hear the rambling of a brook, look upon Mountain's high, spend the night in the desert, live in the Arctic, travel throughout the World and see the wonders of the World? Have new born curl their tiny fingers around your one finger! To know there is a God!

 

But? If that's not enough for your agnostic/atheist azz?

 

Join the United States Marine Corps and go through an Iraqi artillery barrage or mortar barrage? And come out the other side of it!

 

I grant you! Your happy azz won't be agnostic/atheistic afterwards!

 

Thank you for your service. God Bless the USA and our soldiers.

[Keenly]

The arguments that believers use are absolutely hilarious sometimes. I like to pretend those arguments are being used in court. Oh good times .

[BetheButterfly]

Could you explain to me exactly why this should matter to you?

 

If you don't believe in God, it really is of no consequence whether anyone can prove it to you or not - isn't it?

 

This is something that highly amuses me. If I were an Atheist, I wouldn't bother arguing with Theists about the existence of God. I don't argue with little kids who believe Santa Claus is a magical man who gives out presents and who lives in the North Pole with his reindeer and helper elves.

 

Now, I am a Theist due to my experiences with God, so I cannot deny Him anymore than I can deny gravity (I love your posts ToDreaminBlue).

 

If I were an Atheist and wanted to argue with Theists though, I would argue with those who are violent and have extreme views, like the Westboro Baptists for example.

 

I would strive to help them understand how important it is not to force others to "convert/revert" as well as how important it is for people to live together peaceably, to have freedom of religion (which includes freedom to NOT believe), and to actually live the good morals of their belief instead of anything violent. For example, if I were an Atheist, I would continuously remind Christians of what Jesus Christ says accounted in the Bible about loving people.

 

As a Christian, I have to continuously remind myself and ask God to help me love. I'm not perfect; I still have a long way to go in Love, but if I were an Atheist, I would think the important thing would be to show/remind Theists how important Love is.

[Keenly]

My favorite part is how Christians literally think they are better than you. Judging you for everything you do and sticking their nose so far in the air its like they are smelling a giraffes ass.

 

Remember? Your going suffer forever if you disagree with them, and apparently.you can't v a good person without god.

[GorillaTheater]

The arguments that believers use are absolutely hilarious sometimes. I like to pretend those arguments are being used in court. Oh good times .

 

Trust me, you hear much wackier stuff in court.

 

People believe in what they want to believe in. Much of it is alot weirder than a belief in God. As long as it doesn't impact me, I'm cool with it.

[Keenly]

Trust me, you hear much wackier stuff in court.

 

People believe in what they want to believe in. Much of it is alot weirder than a belief in God. As long as it doesn't impact me, I'm cool with it.

 

See Im cool with people believing and having faith. I'm not cool with people being condescending or using ridiculous arguedments to try and convince others that their way is the only way.

[M30USA]

Trust me, you hear much wackier stuff in court.

 

People believe in what they want to believe in. Much of it is alot weirder than a belief in God. As long as it doesn't impact me, I'm cool with it.

 

Good point. Most humans don't live by reality and objectivity, but rather by what things APPEAR to be. This is best typified in court. Appearance is everything. If you can convince the judge that you did or didn't do such and such, it doesn't matter what actually happened. And sadly people live their lives with this same philosophy

[TaraMaiden]

Odd. I answered this in the post you are replying to - yet you are asking me again. To repeat therefore: "I like to know what is true". I endevour to ensure in every way that my world view maps as closely to reality as it is possible to. If there is a god entity therefore - I most certainly want to be made aware of that.

 

Well what is true is that it can't be proven.

So suck it up.

 

Really, I can't be asked to discuss this any further....it has so little relevance, it truly doesn't matter.

As a great sage once remarked;

 

"It really matters little whether heaven exists or not. What matters is to live life as if it did."

 

Other than that, I'm not bothered one way or the other....

 

 

 

I have literally no idea what any of this has to do with my being male.

 

Sorry.

I meant pedantic 9-year-old.....

 

You talk fancy, but actually, you say very little that either makes sense, or is logical.

You want proof God exists.

Until you get it, he's not 'true'.

 

Fine.

we get it.

 

So what?

 

Your life is not affected one iota by the fact that to you, something is not true.

Nobody expects or demands that you change your mind, so I really don't know where your gripe lies.

[Keenly]

Good point. Most humans don't live by reality and objectivity, but rather by what things APPEAR to be. This is best typified in court. Appearance is everything. If you can convince the judge that you did or didn't do such and such, it doesn't matter what actually happened. And sadly people live their lives with this same philosophy

 

 

Sadly people live their lives in a state where things must actually be shown to exist before people believe in them. It's truly a sad world when people won't just believe what is said out loud, or written in a book now isn't it?

[KathyM]

CSC - The Designed "Just So" Universe

 

Here is a peer reviewed article on the mathematical argument that supports the intelligent design theory.

 

For those who have a hard time believing in anything they can't see.

[GorillaTheater]

Would a creator, who is all powerful and all knowing, be considered intelligent if they allowed WWII to happen?

 

You might be letting a species-centric view cloud the differences between intelligence and giving a sh*t.

 

To assume that the creator of the universe gives a sh*t over the stupidity of some dumbf*cks on one of a bazillion planets in one of a bazillion galaxies may be assuming too much.

[KathyM]

Intelligent design implies and intelligent creator. Would a creator, who is all powerful and all knowing, be considered intelligent if they allowed WWII to happen?

 

Or is that just mysterious ways again?

God created a perfect world. It is man's sinfulness that corrupted it. So if your question is why does God allow sin, the answer is that God is against all sin, but He allows man to have free will to determine man's own actions, and from that, man will be judged. God wants His creation to make the choice themselves to follow Him and be obedient to Him. And from that choice, will man's eternity be determined.

[pureinheart]

Good point. Most humans don't live by reality and objectivity, but rather by what things APPEAR to be. This is best typified in court. Appearance is everything. If you can convince the judge that you did or didn't do such and such, it doesn't matter what actually happened. And sadly people live their lives with this same philosophy

 

Yep...........

[pureinheart]

Intelligent design implies and intelligent creator. Would a creator, who is all powerful and all knowing, be considered intelligent if they allowed WWII to happen?

 

Or is that just mysterious ways again?

 

IMO, man allowed this to happen. Not targeting you ED, I hear this a lot. My answer would be that it's about time man take some responsibility for our own screw ups. Unfortunately the purpose for WWII was a big human screw up on many different levels.

[GorillaTheater]

You might be letting a species-centric view cloud the differences between intelligence and giving a sh*t.

 

To assume that the creator of the universe gives a sh*t over the stupidity of some dumbf*cks on one of a bazillion planets in one of a bazillion galaxies may be assuming too much.

 

God created a perfect world. It is man's sinfulness that corrupted it. So if your question is why does God allow sin, the answer is that God is against all sin, but He allows man to have free will to determine man's own actions, and from that, man will be judged. God wants His creation to make the choice themselves to follow Him and be obedient to Him. And from that choice, will man's eternity be determined.

 

Coming from entirely different directions, it's possible that we've come to more-or-less the same ground.

[BetheButterfly]

My answer would be that it's about time man take some responsibility for our own screw ups. Unfortunately the purpose for WWII was a big human screw up on many different levels.

 

100% agreed!!! man as in humankind ... both men and women!

 

Humans are responsible for what they do.

[pureinheart]

Sadly people live their lives in a state where things must actually be shown to exist before people believe in them. It's truly a sad world when people won't just believe what is said out loud, or written in a book now isn't it?

 

You know K, I think it's a heart issue, which is why being horrible concerning evangelism, I'll suggest individuals ask God to reveal Himself to them. If a person is truly seeking- they will find:D

[Gunny376]

That appears to be a complete non-sequitur to me however. Unless there is something I am missing but by all means adumbrate your reasoning for me here.

 

 

 

Not a safe assumption at all I am afraid given the number of people who have gone through such things and come out still not believing the god proposition at all.

 

God could literally kick some people in their azz, and they still wouldn't believe in Him!

[KathyM]

That is gibberish. That whole site is a ploy to promote his book, which I'm sure contains more gibberish. His entire reasoning is based on ignoring the concept of Selection bias.

 

From 5 minutes of googleing around it seems obvious that the author is a clown trying to raise controversy in order to gain media exposure to boost book sales. Fwiw I have an engineering degree myself. Also I wouldn't call the article peer reviewed.

Sternberg peer review controversy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

 

 

See, this is what happens when you set 1 step out of logic and into their dogma to try and show them their inconsistencies: they just throw more dogma at you.

I googled peer reviewed articles on the mathematical proof of God's existence. This article was one of many that came up in that search as specifically peer reviewed. You claim his mathematical calculations are jibberish, but there are many well known scientists and mathematicians that would agree with him. You obviously wish to close your mind to the possibility that there is an intelligent creator, and choose to dismiss anything that counters your opinion as jibberish. Suit yourself, but calling some of the most renouned scientists and mathematicians in history as spouting jibberish kind of makes you look like the closed minded person on this subject. Well, I'm done with this debate. I was asked to provide a peer reviewed article that shows the theory that mathematics supports the theory of intelligent design. I also have given my testimony of my own experience with miracles that could only be explained through answer to prayer. You believe what you wish, and I'll do the same. But you may want to consider that the vast majority of the world's population believe in intelligent design. You might just be the one who is wrong on this. The OP asked for proof of God's existence. I provided one peer reviewed article supporting the theory. There are many more out there. I would suggest you do some real investigation into it without closing your mind and dismissing it.

[M30USA]

Sadly people live their lives in a state where things must actually be shown to exist before people believe in them. It's truly a sad world when people won't just believe what is said out loud, or written in a book now isn't it?

 

Not if that book has been tried and true for 2 decades of my life, along with 4000 years before I was born.

 

It's the only book that accounts for the paradoxes of life. It is deathly negative by how it exposes the wickedness of human hearts. Yet it's almost childishly positive by stating that mere faith in Christ, with repentance, can spare a person hell. No other book or religion is able to reconcile these obvious paradoxes in life as does the Bible. Other philosophies are too simple and don't line up with life experiences.

[M30USA]

Then your god is neither all powerful, nor is he benevolent. If anything, this makes "him" malevolently lazy and uncaring. Again, assuming very much. As for the responsibility part, that's not on me, and I never said men weren't responsible for it. But this apparently all caring, all loving deity you choose to worship has seen fit to require vast amounts of suffering, chaos and destruction on humanity's part, and in the same sentence claim to be all loving, all powerful, and all wise.

 

Allowing such things shows an impotence of power verging on the obscene. The internal conflict between omnipotence, self responsibility, and love is one you, as a christian, have to rectify, not me. I don't claim to be all loving, all caring, and then sit idly as millions die in a firestorm of despair.

 

The free will question is an interesting one. How is this explained? We have free will because we have no choice not to have it, not because it's a convenient smoke screen to deflect questions about the validity of one's faith.

 

Can God make a rock so heavy he can't lift it?

 

Boom. God is dead! He's been disproven! We humans are such geniuses!