A (Terrifying) Window Into the Future?

[tman666]

I'll preface this with the disclaimer that I am still pretty fired up, so please forgive the rambling, and possibly over-dramatic nature of this post.

 

My fiancee and I met with a pastor last night at one of the local churches to discuss whether or not he would be able to perform our wedding ceremony in September.

Some backstory: I was baptized in a Christian church (the one we went to, actually), but we stopped going to church as a family around the time I turned 11-12 years old. It was never discussed why we stopped going; I just remember not going after that. Basically, I had a very light religious upbringing, although not completely agnostic.

 

My girl, on the other hand, went to Catholic school up through 8th grade, and basically stayed fairly active in the church through high school. In college, she basically went a little AWOL from the church, other than attending with family on major holidays and such.

 

Still, she considers her Catholic faith to be part of her identity, and it's important to her to have a religious wedding ceremony. As I am not religious (though I consider myself to be spiritual-I'm not an atheist), I protested against having a full on Catholic wedding, since I'm not Catholic myself, and as half of the equation, it wouldn't be very representative of us as a couple.

 

We agreed that we'd "meet in the middle" and find a church and officiant that represented our moderate views.

 

So back to the meeting last night with the pastor:

 

During the meeting with the pastor, he starts off with the typical questions: "why do you guys love each other?", "why do you want to be married?", "how did you guys meet?", etc.

 

After giving him our backstory and the fact that we have lived together for about 4 years now, he basically came right out and said that "Well, I can't marry you guys since you live together".

 

Cue tears from fiancee.

 

Then he goes on to say that "well, I could marry you guys if you were to move out to separate living arrangements until after the wedding, and if you were to remain celibate until then".

 

This is where my alarm bells start going off. I politely as the guy as to some of the reasons he saw that this would prepare us for being married. His answer was basically that "it develops longing" and "it protects 'sacred space'".

 

We know what longing is. Over the past 4 years, I've been out on the road for months at a time, every year, for work. As far as "sacred spaces"- we're both familiar with each others' need for space, privacy, and bodily functions. It just seemed like advice that was sort of inapplicable to our situation.

 

YET, my fiancee seems to be taking this guy somewhat seriously. To be fair, she says that she's not sold on the idea of us moving away from each other for 5 months (we own a house together and have 2 dogs. We both have the responsibilities that come with keeping a house up), but that she'd be willing to entertain the idea.

 

She also mentioned (and here's the part that really chaps my ass) that she wonders if periods of celibacy would allow us to explore greater intimacy with each other.

 

F*CK. THAT. SH*T.

 

I've been celibate. I was celibate for a good chunk of college, when she was out having PUH-LENTY of fun with other guys (granted she didn't know me yet, so no judgement there). I have also been celibate in relationships with girls that were very religious and didn't believe in pre-marital sex.

 

As such, it's sort of a hot button issue for me. I made a promise to myself long ago, before I had ever even met her, that I wouldn't put up with being in a sex-less relationship ever again. I've been there. It doesn't "allow for more exploration of intimacy". What it DOES do, in my experience, is foster the growth of hatred and doubt.

 

As far as moving out for 5 months goes, I don't see a good reason for it. We've considerable time apart. We both know and are familiar with the fact that we both get sick, poop, have occasional bad breath, burp, fart, etc. What exactly are we gaining from this?

 

Obviously, I will be seeking a second opinion in terms of wedding officiants. That said, the fact that my girl seems to be considering this advice seriously has me worried.

 

Part of me just thinks that she is stressed and scared that we won't find a religious officiant who will do our wedding, hence her being more open to suggestion.

 

The other part of me wonders if this is a sign of things to come.

 

I believe that I am responsible for my own happiness. Part of me being happy at this point in my life, as I've discovered (through real life experience), is being sexually active. I refuse to let anyone, even my own fiancee-who I deeply care for and love, dictate my sexual release.

 

I am constantly seeing threads on here about young couples who find themselves in sexless marriages. I do not want to be this kind of couple. I have always, always known my fiancee to be a sexual person, both in her past and in her relationship with me. It's something I love about her. The prospect of this changing scares me. I want to be with her, and her alone. I want to provide for her, experience life with her, love her, someday raise a family with her, and yes, have sex with her.

 

I'm not really sure if I have a specific question here. I know what I want out of life (in general) and this relationship.

 

Before anyone suggests it, no, I do not think the relationship or marriage is doomed. I would definitely appreciate any advice or insight on how best to address or fix this though.

[GorillaTheater]

Any advice I could offer would of course include talking it through, but regarding your concerns about a possibly sexless marriage (a very valid concern; all you have to do to get a feel for the magnitude of the problem is to google the phrase), do you have any other red flags, or is this just a one-off instance of struggling on her part to keep a religious wedding as part of the picture?

[tman666]

Any advice I could offer would of course include talking it through, but regarding your concerns about a possibly sexless marriage (a very valid concern; all you have to do to get a feel for the magnitude of the problem is to google the phrase), do you have any other red flags, or is this just a one-off instance of struggling on her part to keep a religious wedding as part of the picture?

 

This is the first time in the course of our 5 years together that something like this has even remotely come up.

 

It's been pretty smooth sailing for the most part. Due to my past relationships with some, *cough* "interesting" women, I'm not one to ignore red flags.

 

I agree that more communication on the issue will have to occur.

[Els]

Deep breath, tman, deep breath.

 

First of all, I wouldn't jump right to the 'sexless marriage' fear. If she has been sexual for the past several years and is just considering the temporary celibacy out of her desire for a church wedding, I don't think that necessarily points to a sexless marriage.

 

I think both of you need to just calm down and find another pastor. There are TONS of pastors out there, from different denominations, with different views. I know for a fact because I have attended church weddings in which the couple was most definitely living together prior to marriage. Just agree to check this one off the list and go look for the thousands of other pastors out there. Heck, you can even do Sunday afternoon rounds and meet 10 of them in a day.

[tman666]

Deep breath, tman, deep breath.

 

First of all, I wouldn't jump right to the 'sexless marriage' fear. If she has been sexual for the past several years and is just considering the temporary celibacy out of her desire for a church wedding, I don't think that necessarily points to a sexless marriage.

 

I think both of you need to just calm down and find another pastor. There are TONS of pastors out there, from different denominations, with different views. I know for a fact because I have attended church weddings in which the couple was most definitely living together prior to marriage. Just agree to check this one off the list and go look for the thousands of other pastors out there. Heck, you can even do Sunday afternoon rounds and meet 10 of them in a day.

 

Thank you Elswyth.

 

I have called another priest/pastor who said that she doesn't care that my girl and I live together, so we're already on the right track there.

 

I guess my panic mode sort of stemmed from even the insinuation that my girl would be ok with celibacy, even if temporary.

 

I mean, I know that our sex lives will change with time. Periods of stress, sickness, pregnancy, etc. could all affect this, and I'm not so selfish that I'd "expect" her to put out at all costs to satisfy my needs. Not into the "wifely-duty sex", as I think someone else put it in another thread on here.

 

I just want to avoid a slippery slope here.

[Els]

Thank you Elswyth.

 

I have called another priest/pastor who said that she doesn't care that my girl and I live together, so we're already on the right track there.

 

I guess my panic mode sort of stemmed from even the insinuation that my girl would be ok with celibacy, even if temporary.

 

I mean, I know that our sex lives will change with time. Periods of stress, sickness, pregnancy, etc. could all affect this, and I'm not so selfish that I'd "expect" her to put out at all costs to satisfy my needs. Not into the "wifely-duty sex", as I think someone else put it in another thread on here.

 

I just want to avoid a slippery slope here.

 

I think the wedding just meant that much to your girl, and she didn't know she would ever be able to have a church wedding if she didn't cave to what that pastor wanted. I don't think she WANTED to avoid sex for 5 months, she just felt it was a worthy trade off for the wedding she'd dreamt of if she had no other choice, especially as weddings are supposed to be a once-in-a-lifetime thing.

 

It's great that you've found another pastor. Tell your gf! If she says no, THEN you may have a problem.

[Mr. Lucky]

Then he goes on to say that "well, I could marry you guys if you were to move out to separate living arrangements until after the wedding, and if you were to remain celibate until then".

Went through exactly the same thing when I got married. The fact that my wife's aunt is a nun gives some insight into their Catholicism. We were also living together and got the same response (separate and recommit).

 

To her credit, my wife burst out laughing when he said that and she was the one that suggested we find another priest. We successfully did so and had a nice ceremony. You can do the same thing...

 

Mr. Lucky

[TigerCub]

Thank you Elswyth.

 

I have called another priest/pastor who said that she doesn't care that my girl and I live together, so we're already on the right track there.

 

I guess my panic mode sort of stemmed from even the insinuation that my girl would be ok with celibacy, even if temporary.

 

I mean, I know that our sex lives will change with time. Periods of stress, sickness, pregnancy, etc. could all affect this, and I'm not so selfish that I'd "expect" her to put out at all costs to satisfy my needs. Not into the "wifely-duty sex", as I think someone else put it in another thread on here.

 

I just want to avoid a slippery slope here.

 

I was gonna chime in and suggest you meet with someone else - glad you did and glad that this one doesn't have hang ups.

 

I totally understand your fear that popped up and gave you a panic and I would have suggested that you talk to your lady about it and just tell her where it stems from.

 

Glad everything is already gonna work out.

 

Good luck Tman!!

[2sunny]

I would never allow "someone else's judgement" to determine my actions and choices!

 

I have a clear conscience - that I use for decisions myself!

 

 

If it matters - I'm a reformed Catholic!

 

Your GF believes strongly in a faith where men are ALLOWED to harm young children (boys especially) and lie and cover up that wrong doing?

 

IF she does - you may have bigger issues to address!

[Els]

I would never allow "someone else's judgement" to determine my actions and choices!

 

I have a clear conscience - that I use for decisions myself!

 

 

If it matters - I'm a reformed Catholic!

 

Your GF believes strongly in a faith where men are ALLOWED to harm young children (boys especially) and lie and cover up that wrong doing?

 

IF she does - you may have bigger issues to address!

 

Oh come on. Keep your religious prejudices out of this thread.

 

I'm no Catholic, but I'm well aware that EVERY SINGLE formal institution on earth, be it religious or not, will have some shady/unsavoury elements in it. Obviously Catholicism is no exception.

 

Plenty of individual people who choose to believe in Catholicism are perfectly decent people. Judge not someone by their faith or lack thereof unless you do not mind being judged yourself.

[tman666]

I would never allow "someone else's judgement" to determine my actions and choices!

 

I have a clear conscience - that I use for decisions myself!

 

 

If it matters - I'm a reformed Catholic!

 

Your GF believes strongly in a faith where men are ALLOWED to harm young children (boys especially) and lie and cover up that wrong doing?

 

IF she does - you may have bigger issues to address!

 

It is a strong part of her upbringing. Her entire extended family is Catholic. Basically, it's part of her identity.

 

I think the vast majority of Catholics rightfully feel disgusted, betrayed, and dismayed by the actions of some of the church leaders.

 

The point of this thread isn't really to make any arguments for or against any particular religion. It was started because of what I was perceiving as a potentially sticky situation (no pun intended) regarding the future of our sex life as a soon to be married couple.

[standtall]

 

Your GF believes strongly in a faith where men are ALLOWED to harm young children (boys especially) and lie and cover up that wrong doing?

 

!

 

Nice personal attack on his fiancee's religion..wow that is helpful. I'm not Catholic, but I can say that the majority are not what you describe.

 

 

OP, You're in a tough spot. How long are of a time are you going to go celibate exactly? If this church marriage is that important to your future wife, and you can handle the celibacy, then I would sacrifice for her and do it. After all she could get sick in your marriage and not be able to have sex anyways, and you have to accept that. Also, I would point out if she wants to go the literal route of the Bible, then it is also up to her to make sure that you're physically pleased in your marrige to the best of her ability.

[Nyla]

I was raised Catholic as well; I even attended a Dead Poet's Society type of all girls high school with a convent beside it. As I got older, I realized that I couldn't be a part of a religion with such archaic views on sex, birth control and female clergy. The way the Church covers up sex abuse is just disgusting to me. I will stop talking about that because it is off topic.

 

My husband is an atheist and though I believe in God, neither of us wanted to marry in a church because we do not attend regularly. Our mothers wanted us to marry in a church but we did what made us happy.

 

I knew the Catholic church would not be accepting of the fact that my husband and I shacked up and the fact that he is not Catholic. I refused to take marriage advice from some fool who had never married and I wasn't going to force my husband to convert. We had a civil ceremony.

 

I would run if I were you. It is understandable that you are worried because you and your fiancee have vastly different views on religion and sex; those are huge issues which married couples divorce over. I would never marry someone who said that we needed periods of celibacy to create sacred space. This is a bad sign.

[KathyM]

If you are not on the same page as your fiancé when it comes to your religious beliefs/practices, that would be much more of a concern and indication of possible longevity problems for your potential marriage than whether or not you abstained from sex for five months. I think you and your fiancé need more premarital counseling before any other clergy is contacted.

[OpenBook]

If you are not on the same page as your fiancé when it comes to your religious beliefs/practices, that would be much more of a concern and indication of possible longevity problems for your potential marriage than whether or not you abstained from sex for five months. I think you and your fiancé need more premarital counseling before any other clergy is contacted.

 

That was my take on it as well. And there's some other potential red flags in your OP, tman - one of them being your fiancee's sexual past. I hope you will keep talking to your fiancee about all these issues, and explore premarital counseling with other pastors, counselors, even trusted friends - before you take any further concrete steps towards the wedding day. I think it's crucial that these issues be thoroughly examined before you get married. Because once you sign on the dotted line, the stuff that seemed insignificant before the wedding will become magnified 100x after it.

 

Marriage won't solve your problems, it will magnify and compound them.

[Lostinlife4now]

I'll preface this with the disclaimer that I am still pretty fired up, so please forgive the rambling, and possibly over-dramatic nature of this post.

 

My fiancee and I met with a pastor last night at one of the local churches to discuss whether or not he would be able to perform our wedding ceremony in September.

Some backstory: I was baptized in a Christian church (the one we went to, actually), but we stopped going to church as a family around the time I turned 11-12 years old. It was never discussed why we stopped going; I just remember not going after that. Basically, I had a very light religious upbringing, although not completely agnostic.

 

My girl, on the other hand, went to Catholic school up through 8th grade, and basically stayed fairly active in the church through high school. In college, she basically went a little AWOL from the church, other than attending with family on major holidays and such.

 

Still, she considers her Catholic faith to be part of her identity, and it's important to her to have a religious wedding ceremony. As I am not religious (though I consider myself to be spiritual-I'm not an atheist), I protested against having a full on Catholic wedding, since I'm not Catholic myself, and as half of the equation, it wouldn't be very representative of us as a couple.

 

We agreed that we'd "meet in the middle" and find a church and officiant that represented our moderate views.

 

So back to the meeting last night with the pastor:

 

During the meeting with the pastor, he starts off with the typical questions: "why do you guys love each other?", "why do you want to be married?", "how did you guys meet?", etc.

 

After giving him our backstory and the fact that we have lived together for about 4 years now, he basically came right out and said that "Well, I can't marry you guys since you live together".

 

Cue tears from fiancee.

 

Then he goes on to say that "well, I could marry you guys if you were to move out to separate living arrangements until after the wedding, and if you were to remain celibate until then".

 

This is where my alarm bells start going off. I politely as the guy as to some of the reasons he saw that this would prepare us for being married. His answer was basically that "it develops longing" and "it protects 'sacred space'".

 

We know what longing is. Over the past 4 years, I've been out on the road for months at a time, every year, for work. As far as "sacred spaces"- we're both familiar with each others' need for space, privacy, and bodily functions. It just seemed like advice that was sort of inapplicable to our situation.

 

YET, my fiancee seems to be taking this guy somewhat seriously. To be fair, she says that she's not sold on the idea of us moving away from each other for 5 months (we own a house together and have 2 dogs. We both have the responsibilities that come with keeping a house up), but that she'd be willing to entertain the idea.

 

She also mentioned (and here's the part that really chaps my ass) that she wonders if periods of celibacy would allow us to explore greater intimacy with each other.

 

F*CK. THAT. SH*T.

 

I've been celibate. I was celibate for a good chunk of college, when she was out having PUH-LENTY of fun with other guys (granted she didn't know me yet, so no judgement there). I have also been celibate in relationships with girls that were very religious and didn't believe in pre-marital sex.

 

As such, it's sort of a hot button issue for me. I made a promise to myself long ago, before I had ever even met her, that I wouldn't put up with being in a sex-less relationship ever again. I've been there. It doesn't "allow for more exploration of intimacy". What it DOES do, in my experience, is foster the growth of hatred and doubt.

 

As far as moving out for 5 months goes, I don't see a good reason for it. We've considerable time apart. We both know and are familiar with the fact that we both get sick, poop, have occasional bad breath, burp, fart, etc. What exactly are we gaining from this?

 

Obviously, I will be seeking a second opinion in terms of wedding officiants. That said, the fact that my girl seems to be considering this advice seriously has me worried.

 

Part of me just thinks that she is stressed and scared that we won't find a religious officiant who will do our wedding, hence her being more open to suggestion.

 

The other part of me wonders if this is a sign of things to come.

 

I believe that I am responsible for my own happiness. Part of me being happy at this point in my life, as I've discovered (through real life experience), is being sexually active. I refuse to let anyone, even my own fiancee-who I deeply care for and love, dictate my sexual release.

 

I am constantly seeing threads on here about young couples who find themselves in sexless marriages. I do not want to be this kind of couple. I have always, always known my fiancee to be a sexual person, both in her past and in her relationship with me. It's something I love about her. The prospect of this changing scares me. I want to be with her, and her alone. I want to provide for her, experience life with her, love her, someday raise a family with her, and yes, have sex with her.

 

I'm not really sure if I have a specific question here. I know what I want out of life (in general) and this relationship.

 

Before anyone suggests it, no, I do not think the relationship or marriage is doomed. I would definitely appreciate any advice or insight on how best to address or fix this though.

 

 

Listen to me tman666... I am Catholic, have been all of my life. This is one big requirement of not living together before marriage. But being a Catholic I have picked and chosen the rules that apply in my life. I am divorced, had my tubes tied, all against the Catholic Religion. BUT they are not against MY GOD...he forgives me and loves me for who I am.

 

I remember when my daughter was born, the Catholic Church WOULD NOT BAPTIZE HER before I got an annulment from my previous marriage! It cost $1400! The Catholic Church is ALL ABOUT MONEY!!!! But this is the only thing I knew in my life.

 

YOU DO WHAT YOU FEEL IS RIGHT IN YOUR HEART! God Loves YOU!

 

As far as being in a sexless marriage....from experience, Marriages all go thru dry spells for one reason or another!

 

Hang in there, and if you do see another Catholic priest, the answer will still be the same...DO NOT LIVE TOGETHER BEFORE MARRIAGE!