Fighting paranoia

[Trinfire]

Well...you're not taking into account the "landscape" here. She's had an affair before. She has demonstrated to you her capability to do so...AND...now you're seeing further signs that she's at it again.

 

It's one thing to hear hoofbeats and think "horse"...if you're standing on the plains of Africa.

 

But my friend, you're standing in a pasture that's been used by local cowboys for years...spending much time worrying about whether or not you're about to get run down by a zebra seems like a poor use of energy and effort, in my book.

 

Touche! effective counter use of the analogy.

[leonine]

I think what Trinfire is saying (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that it doesn't really matter if it's a horse, a zebra, or a three legged elephant, he's going to get out of the way and work on himself until his wife can deal with him in an open and honest manner. If she comes back and wants to work through the issues in the M, and is willing to discuss what the frick is up with Skype, and being unavailable and withdrawing, so be it. Decisions can be made at that point. I would probably be hard pressed to forgive a second affair, but who knows how one would react in that moment. The real issue is that it seems obvious that she has a secret (whatever it may be) and while that's generally not a good thing in any marriage, its especially inappropriate given her history.

 

Best of luck Trinfire. Look after yourself and you'll attract a partner worthy of you.

[Trinfire]

I think what Trinfire is saying (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is that it doesn't really matter if it's a horse, a zebra, or a three legged elephant, he's going to get out of the way and work on himself until his wife can deal with him in an open and honest manner. If she comes back and wants to work through the issues in the M, and is willing to discuss what the frick is up with Skype, and being unavailable and withdrawing, so be it. Decisions can be made at that point. I would probably be hard pressed to forgive a second affair, but who knows how one would react in that moment. The real issue is that it seems obvious that she has a secret (whatever it may be) and while that's generally not a good thing in any marriage, its especially inappropriate given her history.

 

Best of luck Trinfire. Look after yourself and you'll attract a partner worthy of you.

 

Effective summary Leonine, appreciated.

[Plan 9 from OS]

OP, the flags to indicate that your wife MIGHT be in another EA with someone else - probably another WOW player. It may just be me, but playing WOW should have NEVER been allowed from the moment you first discovered her affair.

 

But if your wife is not cheating and she is just depressed, then I think in the end it may simply be that you, her or neither of you will ever get over this affair. She may not be willing to put the hard work in any longer. Or it may be in reality that you cannot get over her cheating. That may very well be possible, because it seems like this time around you don't seem to have the same angst like you did on your first D-day. I think you threw in the towel on this awhile ago and didn't want to own up to the fact. Maybe you felt guilty about having these feelings while your wife was going all out trying to earn your trust back. IDK, but I am of the opinion that you checked out awhile ago and are finally processing this fact.

[Trinfire]

OP, the flags to indicate that your wife MIGHT be in another EA with someone else - probably another WOW player. It may just be me, but playing WOW should have NEVER been allowed from the moment you first discovered her affair.

 

But if your wife is not cheating and she is just depressed, then I think in the end it may simply be that you, her or neither of you will ever get over this affair. She may not be willing to put the hard work in any longer. Or it may be in reality that you cannot get over her cheating. That may very well be possible, because it seems like this time around you don't seem to have the same angst like you did on your first D-day. I think you threw in the towel on this awhile ago and didn't want to own up to the fact. Maybe you felt guilty about having these feelings while your wife was going all out trying to earn your trust back. IDK, but I am of the opinion that you checked out awhile ago and are finally processing this fact.

 

I do feel checked out at the moment Plan9. Whether that's because I'm emotionally exhausted or that I've thrown in the towel, that's why this week will be good to wrap my head around that. From everything I've typed here, it sounds like my wife is the worst person in the world.

 

I wanted to type out some of the reasons why I love her and I started crying so I've deleted that. Right now, this isn't about her, it's about me.

[Darren Steez]

That's part of the nice guy syndrome isn't it?

Trying to understand?

Looking at all the good moments you had together? Surely there is something real there? Surely those moments meant something to her?

 

She slept with someone else because I did something wrong? Or she was in a bad place? Had a moment of weakness?

 

You could possibly excuse a one time discretion, a momentarily lapse of judgement so out of character it not only shocks you but her as well. Heck if you even factor in the reasons to how she arrived at that moment to do what she did should be a red flag but that is only outweighed by the devastation it cause her, to see absolute and true remorse and from that point on to work together to build something stronger, not out of obligation but because you love that person so damn much you'll do anything and everything to have a better future, full of trust and love.

 

When you have to pull someone kicking and screaming. When they are not doing their utmost to work with you in helping you to build your future. When they tell you, you are like a brother?!!? When they refuse to give up their affair, and make no bones about it she's in one. She would rather throw you under the bus than give up her affair? There is no understanding or trying to reason with that, because the person you used to know is gone. She's invested in someone else. People change, feelings change. New connections are made. Life still flows on but you have stayed the same. And that is where the heartache comes in.

 

Good luck to you sir. Sincerely

[Trinfire]

Again, she made a huge effort since D-Day. She did everything anyone on here would expect a wayward spouse to do it, almost to the letter. Marriage counselling, books, just-us trips, communication, going NC with AP, deleting WoW, and for a long time it was good. I would have my triggers and we would try and deal with it. She showed, demonstrated and lived what i can only consider the remorse of a deathbed convert. The tears, the anger, the self-belittling, everything. After 3 years, things felt good and it's only within say the past 4-5 months where she's had to deal with a bad work environment, finally accepting we'll never have kids, and me continuing to play the warden that it's got to this. I absolutely do accept part of the responsibility for where we're at; we wouldn't be together still if she hadn't done half of what she had done.

 

I don't think either of us anticipated that i wouldn't heal as quickly or as thoroughly as we had hoped. Yes, the precipitation is hers and hers alone, but recovery is as much my responsibility as it is hers. I can honestly say I forgive the affair. The lying and secrecy I have not. And so, the secrecy rears its head again, or the perception of secrecy and we're back to square one, which she doesn't understand after putting so much effort into patching things up over the years, and I don't understand why she can't understand that I need honesty; brutal, quick honesty no matter the cost.

[turnera]

Has she ever looked into the possibility of toxic shame?

[Trinfire]

Has she ever looked into the possibility of toxic shame?

 

You'll have to explain because I can't find any good Google links for that.

[todreaminblue]

Thanks MissBee, you voice exactly my problems! Hyper alertness.

 

I feel a lot of it stems from the affair and noticing things but not acting on them. My brain is pattern matching and trying to make sure it doesn't happen again.

 

I voiced much of this tonight on the phone with her. She knows that she 'broke' me and is open to anything that could help me. I may have made a breakthrough in just writing all that story down at the top. It's not things or events that are my triggers, it's relationships. If she has to spend time with a male coworker, my brain goes into overdrive and I concoct exactly what you said, soap operas. Once I got to know him, it doesn't register a beep.

 

Ive asked her if there's anything she can do about letting me into the circles of 'relationships' she has. Won't know anything until tomorrow.

 

 

I was cheated on by a serial cheat, I would know when he was because he would change, he would become disinterested in me other than the bedroom, i would struggle on with my day and he just wouldnt care, that was when i knew it was happening again, he would ignore my calls my texts, he wouldnt say i love you, he was short with me, and i would just say ok when you want to talk im here, and he would never call, pretty pathetic huh......me staying through this did its damage, i would try and be extra charming even though i was in pain, i would try even harder, i forgot about me, the relationship ended the last time because i had teen issues i had to deal with and focus on, i couldnt focus on him, he wasnt helping and i had five kids who needed me , i chose them.....he wasnt the type to get help or therapy ....i was.....it has to be joint therapy and i am glad to read with you it is......i havent been in a relationship since we split, the fact is when i am i can tell when someone is being dishonest with me so i wont have paranoia, i have low self worth probably.....i would say almost for sure,i cant be ignored, it makes me extremely sad if i were to get into another relationship i would be honest abotu my last one, and explain what i cant handle....ignorance is one...paranoia is something i have in everyday life i am schizo affective.....but my strategies for paranoia are to know the beast, recognize it when it rears its head,, and talk myself out of it.......deb

[aed]

@ TS

 

When do you start working on yourself. Setup boundaries! Do you have an mental stage for your wife: "Enough is enough".

 

You shouldn't be less concerned about your wife at this point and you should start focussing on your own happyness.

[Trinfire]

@ TS

 

When do you start working on yourself. Setup boundaries! Do you have an mental stage for your wife: "Enough is enough".

 

You shouldn't be less concerned about your wife at this point and you should start focussing on your own happyness.

 

what do you mean by mental stages?

 

I am working on me, but I'm easy to please. It's the more complex things that vex me.

[turnera]

You'll have to explain because I can't find any good Google links for that.

 

Toxic shame is an all pervasive sense that I am flawed. It is a belief that we are worthless and defective as a human being. It is more than just a fleeting feeling of unworthiness, it is an internal sense of falling short. If we experience toxic shame, it is difficult to recognize. As [John] Bradshaw [author of Healing the Shame That Binds You] says, "A shame based person will guard against exposing his inner self to others, but more significantly, he will guard against exposing himself to himself."

 

Shame is a normal and necessary human emotion. It alerts us to our limits as people, letting us know we are not all-powerful and must respect the needs of others as well as our own. But shame can also become "toxic"--a pervasive feeling not about anything we do, but about who we are. John Bradshaw, author of Healing the Shame That Binds You and other works, and many others have suggested that toxic shame forms early in our lives. Children develop shame as toddlers. If all goes well, this shame is healthy. If something goes wrong, such as abuse or another invalidating environment, toxic shame can result, with implications that can last a lifetime. Many raised in a BPD environment, as well as others, carry toxic shame.

 

TOOLS: Toxic shame--what is it and what can we do about it?

 

Toxic Shame is a surprisingly common condition resulting from when a primary figure in your life; someone from whom you would turn to for emotional support and approval, particularly during formative or vulnerable times in your life; would do and say things that make you feel insignificant, inept or that they are somehow ashamed of you.

Common Symptoms

 

• People suffering from toxic shame are apt to have short term relationships, particularly while growing up, for a subconscious fear that someone getting “too close” to them would be ashamed of what they saw.
  
• This pattern can include jumping from job to job because of a deep seated perception that moving beyond basic or entry level positions is not an option for lack of capability or worth.
  
• With such an underlying lack of self-worth and confidence one may also be prone to protective knee-jerk reactions to benign comments, inquiries or situations in an attempt to maintain at least some emotional control over his or her emotion interactions.
  
• One, in essence, creates reactive comfort zones atop emotional walls of defense indicative of an inner battle between trying to find comfort and security with others while being in a constant “fight or flight” mode.
  

Toxic Shame | Forward Motion Life Coaching

 

Awesome book: Amazon.com: Healing the Shame that Binds You (Recovery Classics) (9780757303234): John Bradshaw: Books

[Trinfire]

Toxic shame is an all pervasive sense that I am flawed. It is a belief that we are worthless and defective as a human being. It is more than just a fleeting feeling of unworthiness, it is an internal sense of falling short. If we experience toxic shame, it is difficult to recognize. As [John] Bradshaw [author of Healing the Shame That Binds You] says, "A shame based person will guard against exposing his inner self to others, but more significantly, he will guard against exposing himself to himself."

 

Shame is a normal and necessary human emotion. It alerts us to our limits as people, letting us know we are not all-powerful and must respect the needs of others as well as our own. But shame can also become "toxic"--a pervasive feeling not about anything we do, but about who we are. John Bradshaw, author of Healing the Shame That Binds You and other works, and many others have suggested that toxic shame forms early in our lives. Children develop shame as toddlers. If all goes well, this shame is healthy. If something goes wrong, such as abuse or another invalidating environment, toxic shame can result, with implications that can last a lifetime. Many raised in a BPD environment, as well as others, carry toxic shame.

 

TOOLS: Toxic shame--what is it and what can we do about it?

 

Toxic Shame is a surprisingly common condition resulting from when a primary figure in your life; someone from whom you would turn to for emotional support and approval, particularly during formative or vulnerable times in your life; would do and say things that make you feel insignificant, inept or that they are somehow ashamed of you.

Common Symptoms

 

• People suffering from toxic shame are apt to have short term relationships, particularly while growing up, for a subconscious fear that someone getting “too close” to them would be ashamed of what they saw.
  
• This pattern can include jumping from job to job because of a deep seated perception that moving beyond basic or entry level positions is not an option for lack of capability or worth.
  
• With such an underlying lack of self-worth and confidence one may also be prone to protective knee-jerk reactions to benign comments, inquiries or situations in an attempt to maintain at least some emotional control over his or her emotion interactions.
  
• One, in essence, creates reactive comfort zones atop emotional walls of defense indicative of an inner battle between trying to find comfort and security with others while being in a constant “fight or flight” mode.
  

Toxic Shame | Forward Motion Life Coaching

 

Awesome book: Amazon.com: Healing the Shame that Binds You (Recovery Classics) (9780757303234): John Bradshaw: Books

 

This is pretty enlightening Turnera. A lot of what is said here, was said verbatim by her yesterday. "I'm worthless." "I don't know why you're with me." "I feel like no one would love me." "I feel like I'm just going through the motions of life." "I don't want to feel this way, but I deserve to."

 

Ugh. Thanks, this has been very insightful.

[turnera]

Just so you know, if she DOES have it, it permeates EVERYTHING. Every choice, every action, every word spoken or NOT spoken, her whole life is an attempt to HIDE from you and everyone else just how flawed and worthless she is. It is VERY hard to get past it, because you simply don't BELIEVE that you are as valuable as other people. And many such people will self destruct, choose actions that CAUSE them to fail, so they don't have to live up to anyone's expectations (which they know they can't achieve because, you know, they are broken).

[Trinfire]

Three days NC with only a minor bump to find out if she was able to get a counsellor. Thought I was doing okay until I ended up running into her in the parking lot. A coworker had driven her into work and she's letting me use her pass. I didn't realize she'd be there at all. I didn't even clue in until the car in front of me went the long way around to park. Then I recognized her hair. And then I don't remember what happened. I remember not being able to see until I got into my office and just the sound of my breathing.

 

Gods I miss her and hope she's doing well. And I hope she knows what she wants. I can't live in a limbo like this.

[turnera]

Whose idea was it for you to leave?

[Trinfire]

Mine. Basically it was obvious me being around wasn't helping her figure out what was going on in her head so I said I'd leave for a week and we'd reconvene on Saturday. It's easy to go through the motions of being separated but to see her was like a hammer to my chest.

Edited February 13, 2013 by Trinfire

[Trinfire]

So, a quick update after 7 months. We separated in April. I bought her out of her house and she's living alone in an apartment. It was pretty amicable, almost easy. I'm on the dating scene pretty successfully and she's...not. Not seeing anyone and has pretty much retreated into her own little world. She was travelling a fair bit at the beginning there, going to baseball games in different American cities as she discussed wanting to during our counselling sessions and that's basically it. Sounds like she still plans to move away after her two year work project is over but that's it. I look back at this thread after such a fair amount of time and kinda shrug my shoulders. It was a different Trinfire for sure.

 

I've worked for and received my motorcycle license, went on a caribbean cruise by myself, started taking guitar lessons, learned to cook, hiked a couple mountains, all that jazz. Saw a couple girls here and there, rediscovered I'm actually a pretty good boyfriend/lover, and yeah. I still miss my wife and we text every now and then. One thing I'm still coming to grips with is that I'm allowed to miss her, and I'm allowed to miss those times we had and I'm allowed to think that it was a great 10 years.

 

But I also look forward to great times, great relationships and reconnecting with what made me tick.

 

Thanks for your support LS! I'll continue to lurk, but if anyone has any questions about how things 'resolved', I'm happy to answer especially if they're in similar circumstances.