"Forgave" and OW1 angry, OW2 denied - Huh?

[Lamplight]

If that's what those OW wanted in man than that's their problem.

[Pierre]

If that's what those OW wanted in man than that's their problem.

 

I would think that most OWs know the MOM is a cheater from the get go.

[MourningLosses]

No we think he just met the wrong woman first, or that the right woman blew it or they got it wrong but shouldn't be stuck with that forever but they're too kind and gentle to abandon the wife cold. Well that's what I thought. Don't know what to think now.

[Pierre]

No we think he just met the wrong woman first, or that the right woman blew it or they got it wrong but shouldn't be stuck with that forever but they're too kind and gentle to abandon the wife cold. Well that's what I thought. Don't know what to think now.

 

It is called rationalization and justification. Very simple 101 psych.

 

It is also called being excessively naive and needy for attention.

 

Many women don't give a MOM any attention.

[Older 'n' wiser]

No we think he just met the wrong woman first, or that the right woman blew it or they got it wrong but shouldn't be stuck with that forever but they're too kind and gentle to abandon the wife cold. Well that's what I thought. Don't know what to think now.

 

It is called rationalization and justification. Very simple 101 psych. It is also called being excessively naive and needy for attention. Many women don't give a MOM any attention.

 

I've been through an intense period of marriage counseling recently and did a crash course in affairs and relationship psychology. LS was on the reading list. I learned a lot and I'd say you've both said true things, depending on who you're talking about. I had access to all his emails, phone records and bank records, dug in and was able to piece it together with H's corroboration. -

I'll summarize: She spoke often of how kind, gentle, caring and attentive he was. She believed that he had never been appreciated by me or my family, so she lavished him with admiration for his humility, generosity and ability to listen, support and give advice (behavior which was as unfamiliar to me as it was new to her). They were both needy and ripe for all the mental tricks required to justify adultery. After D-day, he was able to identify her rationalizations fairly quickly - along with his own, of course.

 

Yet I do understand the OW better now. A little. It comes down to two things: defensiveness, as my MC said, the need to believe that you are decent and right, resentment at being the one left with nothing, sadness, loss. (I would add that the defensiveness makes people lie, a new thing I learned from all this. I am too lazy to lie and never had to study it before but am now much better at identifying it.)

 

The bottom line is what Pierre said: Many women don't give a MOM any attention. I would add: Many people don't have affairs. It is actually not hard to know when your mind plays tricks on you, to know when you or others are vulnerable emotionally and to have the integrity to remove yourself from compromising people and situations.

 

Oh, how boring. I'll stop. Doesn't everyone know these things? Isn't it what our parents were supposed to show us? Love and loyalty. It's not complicated or that hard.

 

Also, the BS simply does not get the blame. The BS is the victim, for Pete's sake. Victims can't be responsible for a crime. Ever. There's no question of "deserving it" or "asking for it." If someone has been tricked and robbed, it's not unreasonable for the victim to call that person a cheater and a thief. My husband accepted it, called himself these things and more and never made excuses. His absolute acceptance of responsibility without offering defense or excuse was the only reason I agreed to try and reconcile.

[veryhappy]

I could argue that your posts are full of rationalizations.

 

As a fMOW, if I were cheated on and served this dish of repentment and temporary insanity, I wouldn't buy it. I see it as very unlikely for me to agree to reconciling. I get it though, it needs to be this way for the BS so their world can be put together again.

[Older 'n' wiser]

I could argue that your posts are full of rationalizations.

 

As a fMOW, if I were cheated on and served this dish of repentment and temporary insanity, I wouldn't buy it. I see it as very unlikely for me to agree to reconciling. I get it though, it needs to be this way for the BS so their world can be put together again.

 

Touche. I do not disagree.

[veryhappy]

Touche. I do not disagree.

 

I was a little worried to be honest that you'd take it badly. We really are not that different on the two sides of the triangle.

 

I hope you can find what you need to be able o be okay at some point and make the sense you need to make out of your life. Your story makes me wish that exMM's W never finds out if he doesn't confess soon. Finding out so much time after is just cruel, not that otherwise is balmy.

[Older 'n' wiser]

fBS here Older and Wiser, and the reaction of your OW to you is the reaction of my fOW to me.

Needless to say I was shocked, as, like you, I had only empathy for a D mom. I figured she just got caught up in his mid-life bs, had been lied to, and was also a victim.

She was, but not to the extent I inititally thought.

At any rate, yeah, she was angry, hated me, hated him, it was never her fault, only his, and they had almost a two year affair.

The irony? This was over two years after dday, and two weeks after she broke No contact and hinted she'd like to re-inititate the affair.

I do not think her reaction is all that unusual.

Welcome to LS, sorry for your pain, and please keep reading.

 

I have been reading LS, especially your posts, Spark, and would just like to say how astonishingly helpful your posts are. I don't know if this is the place for this (?), but really feel the need to say it. I'm just so humbled and relieved to hear your voice and your explanations. The integrity with which you deal with life and people rings through consistently. I want to thank you for sticking with this, for I don't know how long, with the same message. It's a higher, harder road you've walked than most. What is so inspiring is your ability to see your H's problems and fall from grace as his problem, not yours, and you refuse to be his victim. It's not actually even a refusal; you just never were a victim from what I can see. From that position, you can afford to extend pity to him and his weakness, his cowardice in holding back information and cowering inside his shame. I even sensed some scorn but wonder how that works out when you're also seeking a fulfilling relationship between equals. I have lots of questions about that but am not sure where to post them. I'll start here and then try the Pvt msg route if that's more appropriate.

 

I want to say, too, that I have tremendous respect for all the intensely sincere search for understanding that happens here. There are many approaches that I cannot relate to but see how somebody else might connect and be helped. I suspect that there are many ways to benefit both as contributor and as seeker. I'm not an expert but I wonder if anyone has identified the different kinds of BS survivor/contributors there are on LS. Obviously there are milestones and stages we share in common. For a recent d-Day victim, the consoling and condolences of a BS veteran would be very meaningful. Hearing from a survivor about affair phenomena is like discovering you have a shared disease. You welcome the solace and advice but then realize this disease may not manifest the same way for everyone. Confession: I had this experience under another ID on LS, and after a while I felt pulled and pushed in too many directions that I wasn't sure were right for me. I was vulnerable and resisted voices that insisted on certain lines of action. Observations, shared experience, commiserating were helpful, but judgments and ultimatums scared me a lot, so I took a breather and came back as this personae.

[Older 'n' wiser]

Er, persona, rather. Just one person - both times.

[Spark1111]

I have been reading LS, especially your posts, Spark, and would just like to say how astonishingly helpful your posts are. I don't know if this is the place for this (?), but really feel the need to say it. I'm just so humbled and relieved to hear your voice and your explanations. The integrity with which you deal with life and people rings through consistently. I want to thank you for sticking with this, for I don't know how long, with the same message. It's a higher, harder road you've walked than most. What is so inspiring is your ability to see your H's problems and fall from grace as his problem, not yours, and you refuse to be his victim. It's not actually even a refusal; you just never were a victim from what I can see. From that position, you can afford to extend pity to him and his weakness, his cowardice in holding back information and cowering inside his shame. I even sensed some scorn but wonder how that works out when you're also seeking a fulfilling relationship between equals. I have lots of questions about that but am not sure where to post them. I'll start here and then try the Pvt msg route if that's more appropriate.

 

I want to say, too, that I have tremendous respect for all the intensely sincere search for understanding that happens here. There are many approaches that I cannot relate to but see how somebody else might connect and be helped. I suspect that there are many ways to benefit both as contributor and as seeker. I'm not an expert but I wonder if anyone has identified the different kinds of BS survivor/contributors there are on LS. Obviously there are milestones and stages we share in common. For a recent d-Day victim, the consoling and condolences of a BS veteran would be very meaningful. Hearing from a survivor about affair phenomena is like discovering you have a shared disease. You welcome the solace and advice but then realize this disease may not manifest the same way for everyone. Confession: I had this experience under another ID on LS, and after a while I felt pulled and pushed in too many directions that I wasn't sure were right for me. I was vulnerable and resisted voices that insisted on certain lines of action. Observations, shared experience, commiserating were helpful, but judgments and ultimatums scared me a lot, so I took a breather and came back as this personae.

 

There simply was no place to go as good as the group therapy I received here. No IC, no MC, was as profound an influence on my healing as speaking with others who had been through and were going through what I was experiencing.

 

I was not crazy and I was joyful to realize I was not alone.

 

I came to the OW forum to understand the mindset of someone who would engage with a Married partner. I was angry and confused, but the pain, and the recurring themes broke my heart and caused many an epiphany for both me, and my H when he read here at my request.

 

I knew immediately my healing would take three stages: I would have to forgive the affair, which I did pretty quickly. I understood the allure of someone new hanging on your every word, adoring you, seeing you with new eyes; treating you oh, so, respectfully. I get it. I get how someone could be vulnerable to that when lonely, or sad.

 

The second hurdle, so much harder, was forgiving someone who lied to my face everyday; who started to believe the lies he told himself to justify the affair. He did not have to do that. I would have let him go.

 

The third and final frontier, and the hardest, for me is regaining the respect I once had for him. There were so many times he could have either turned back, confessed, told the truth, separated, told her the truth.He did none of the above.

 

Thank you for the kudos. You are one, bright lady. You will have to go through all the overlapping roller coasting emotions, ready or not.

 

But you are going to be ok.

[merrmeade]

There simply was no place to go as good as the group therapy I received here. No IC, no MC, was as profound an influence on my healing as speaking with others who had been through and were going through what I was experiencing.

 

I was not crazy and I was joyful to realize I was not alone.

 

I came to the OW forum to understand the mindset of someone who would engage with a Married partner. I was angry and confused, but the pain, and the recurring themes broke my heart and caused many an epiphany for both me, and my H when he read here at my request.

 

I knew immediately my healing would take three stages: I would have to forgive the affair, which I did pretty quickly. I understood the allure of someone new hanging on your every word, adoring you, seeing you with new eyes; treating you oh, so, respectfully. I get it. I get how someone could be vulnerable to that when lonely, or sad.

 

The second hurdle, so much harder, was forgiving someone who lied to my face every day; who started to believe the lies he told himself to justify the affair. He did not have to do that. I would have let him go.

 

The third and final frontier, and the hardest, for me is regaining the respect I once had for him. There were so many times he could have either turned back, confessed, told the truth, separated, told her the truth. He did none of the above.

 

Thank you for the kudos. You are one, bright lady. You will have to go through all the overlapping roller coasting emotions, ready or not.

 

But you are going to be ok.

 

That's just what I mean. You don't hear many on here even getting to the second and third stages. Maybe I'm not reading the right forums. That's possible. It's helped me understand that what mires my H in shame also allowed him to be lured into someone else's sphere of influence and need in the first place. As you say, however, it's catch-22 because he just can't gush forth with a detailed confession because he's so ashamed, yaddayadda. He just wants to "move on," of course. I keep finding residual resentment and mistrust in my psyche which means I need more honesty, more clearing the air and lots of repeats. He could quickly dissolve these doubts each time with the right words and information, but his issues block him.

 

Interestingly, he didn't make excuses or try stupid counter-attacks beyond the first month and even then, only a couple of times. After that, he was completely subdued, head down, no excuses, accepting responsibility for his actions and apologizing. No matter what I say, he accepts it and says he wants to win back my trust. The only problem is what he doesn't do. He doesn't go nuts trying to make me feel special or irresistible, and I desperately need that.

 

FYI: Older 'n' wiser, merrmeade - one and the same

[dreamingoftigers]

That's just what I mean. You don't hear many on here even getting to the second and third stages. Maybe I'm not reading the right forums. That's possible. It's helped me understand that what mires my H in shame also allowed him to be lured into someone else's sphere of influence and need in the first place. As you say, however, it's catch-22 because he just can't gush forth with a detailed confession because he's so ashamed, yaddayadda. He just wants to "move on," of course. I keep finding residual resentment and mistrust in my psyche which means I need more honesty, more clearing the air and lots of repeats. He could quickly dissolve these doubts each time with the right words and information, but his issues block him.

 

Interestingly, he didn't make excuses or try stupid counter-attacks beyond the first month and even then, only a couple of times. After that, he was completely subdued, head down, no excuses, accepting responsibility for his actions and apologizing. No matter what I say, he accepts it and says he wants to win back my trust. The only problem is what he doesn't do. He doesn't go nuts trying to make me feel special or irresistible, and I desperately need that.

 

FYI: Older 'n' wiser, merrmeade - one and the same

 

SIL still hasn't admitted to it?

[merrmeade]

SIL still hasn't admitted to it?

 

Yes, she sent note #1 in September with these words: "Dear __, Please forgive me. It was mutual. We were needy..." This meant a lot to me. My feelings instantly changed. It was all I needed from her.

 

Earlier in the summer she had sent two emails: One commemorating my mother's death anniversary (sent me into paroxysms of anger to hear that she would use that to reach out to me - my mother would have been completely distraught and been concerned about her son and her daughter first) and another saying this: "I'm sure we will laugh and cry together again some day." (this was maybe 6 wks. after D-day - very bad timing)

 

But then we spoke by phone. Big mistake.

 

We've spoken by phone a few times, twice about the A. The other calls were about our move from the 'family' home, which my brother owns. She cried, I cried. She got angry then cried some more. Although, at the time, I had no idea why she should be angry with me, I ignored it and my confused feelings, said I loved and forgave her. I still mean that. But THEN she said lots of things that contradicted her contrite note, made no sense or generally belied her humble confession.

Some of the highlights:

1. "WHY did you go off and leave him alone here?" (H in the family home where she stayed when visiting my brother, i.e., it's my fault)

2. "It was fun." (meaning: whatever else it was, it still was fun - wtf)

3. "What about ME?" (in loud lamentations, over and over)

4. "I was all alone all summer. You had your family." (Oh yeah. A real picnic.)

5. "Your brother let your H stay here for x years, most of it rent free." (angry and wrong - H did pay rent; brother is paralyzed, couldn't go there and didn't care)

6. With her typical cooing, super-modulated voice: "It must be so hard for you to have to organize and pack up." (referring to my attention issues and organizational challenges - an especially well placed jab which she repeated)

7. "Why don't you pay movers to box it all up and just go?" (I was also dealing with my parents' things and souvenirs - didn't want her to have them)

8. "After your vicious emails, I blocked you from my email account." (I'd written 2-3 emails simply listing what I knew. In fact, I was still in shock, too stunned to be vicious or angry ... just stating facts as they came up.)

 

After moving, note #2: "Here's compensation for the work done [a check made out to H]. It hasn't been that clean since your mother died. [jab, swipe, purr] It was fairly clean. It was fairly clean. (swear to God, she wrote it twice)" The reference to how clean I'd left it has to do with my mother's insanity regarding how clean (or not) people would leave the place after staying there. So this was SIL ... becoming my mother? treating me like an adolescent? trying to push my buttons?

 

I made a recent phone call that I haven't told H about. Right or wrong I needed her corroboration that H had told me everything about the extent of the sexual involvement. She corroborated - no sex; just the other stuff. More highlights:

9. "I'm not really used to talking about my sexual experiences in public." (no comment needed - she did go ahead and share the essential facts when I told her why)

10. When I said the reason I was asking was to verify that H had told me the truth, she asked "But wasn't there another betrayal some years ago?" (refers to a ONS that I found out about 35 YEARS ago through the OW. The girl wanted to apply for a job at my company. When I said my name, the OW-ONS immediately told me she and H had "almost screwed" 3 months earlier. H and I talked; I forgave. Hardly the same as the 3-yr LTA w/SIL. In SIL's mind, they're similar because she and H only had oral sex 3 times. IOW, their's was a similar wee betrayal since the rest of the relationship was clean except for the flirting and sexual innuendos which she implied were his alone. Remember "it was mutual" from note #1? IOW, only the PA was wrong apparently, not the EA.)

11. "I don't know what to do about your children." (referring to the fact that they don't contact her and show no interest in going to the family home any more)

12. "Why didn't we tell (your brother)?" (her husband - no comment needed)

13. "I certainly hope we can be friends again some day." (Is she Bette Davis playing Sweet Baby Jane?)

 

I do feel a little guilty about using her to get the corroboration of the sexual involvement, but not when I consider her skillful slashing of my ego.

 

So that's it. She's really f--ked with my head all right and I let her. Our MC therapist and my H kept asking why didn't I just forget about her. The problem was that, to maintain the NC between H and SIL, someone had to take responsibility for tying up the loose ends and communicating the needful. I went beyond that and realized she's an A-1 nut job.

 

So isn't it appropriate that I write her a final note - non-vitriolic, non-vengeful, straightforward, factual - that we cannot be friends, that my kids do not want to deal with her, that the problem was the entire EA + PA ... ?

[merrmeade]

[This was a misfire I deleted. The first post above can stand.]

Edited December 19, 2012 by merrmeade

[Spark1111]

[This was a misfire I deleted. The first post above can stand.]

 

Andthere you go, I'm sorry.....but it was his fault, your fault, the stars were misaligned, your brother's fault....Excuse, excuse, deflection, blame, no accountability, YET, let's still be friends, like me, like me, like me, PLEASE, and if I sense you do not, swipe, snap, dig.

 

She is to be pitied. Leave her in your past.