Can a BS cause a WS to cheat?

[StoneCold]

Yes, because someone like you needs to STAY single.

 

Now THAT.....nofool I can get on board with.....marriage imho is simply a bad bet generally speaking. But thats a whole other discussion

[Realist3]

Why?

 

Further, you're using legal arguments, and that's a slippery slope on an interpersonal relationship discussion forum. If you wish, we can apply legal perspective to this entire thread and see how it goes .......

 

It could be argued that the witnessing of the act caused temporary insanity leading to an act that was not premeditated(murder).

 

I agree with the part I bolded out, but I was trying to address a specific response to your posit.

 

I actually agree with most of what you have said.

[JamesM]

Its not logical because that isn't what I'm saying. What YOU are saying I'm saying is not logical.

 

And yet the logical conclusion to your argument that cheaters cheat because of a character flaw leads to the conclusion that a flaw would cause them always to cheat.

 

I'm saying that the BS didn't cause the cheater to cheat. If someone wants to cheat its due to poor character, not the BS.

 

It is due to a decision and not necessarily poor character.

 

 

 

But the fact that they cheated still shows poor character.

 

 

Yes, perhaps...but not a flaw that defines them as always cheating in every relationship.

 

I didn't say BS's didn't admit the marriage was bad. I'm saying poor character led the WS to go outside the marriage and cheat.

 

And I am saying that a poor decision which was motivated by the situation they were in led them to cheat...not simply a flaw that defines them no matter what situation they are in.

 

I had a wife that didn't pay any attention to me, you didn't see me going out and sticking my kielbasa in another woman.

 

You made a good decision and not a bad one. This does not mean that you will make only good decisions and never bad ones.

 

Besides, the question of the thread is, did the BS cause the WS to cheat. My answer is no.

 

And my answer is that in many cases, the bad marriages motivated the WS to decide to cheat.

[JamesM]

You are going to compare a heat of a shocking moment knee jerk reaction to a well planned methofical carrying out of a cheater's plan? You can do better than that.

 

You are making the assumption that an affair is well-planned and not motivated by frustration or anger or depression or some other feeling. This assumption would be wrong.

 

And yes...I am.

 

You are now excusing someone because of emotions in one situation and not in the other.

[carhill]

The scenario never stated that the participants actions were a surprise, only that they were caught in the marital bed. Readers inferred more than was in evidence.

 

The wife could have known about or suspected the actions for a long time and this was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

 

Did the husband's actions cause her to pull the trigger? Did his choice have a potential and realized consequence of his being deceased? What is the difference?

[Mr. Lucky]

This isn't a marriage! it sounds more like a war zone. I would be hard-pressed to not expect cheating in such an angry and disrespectful relationship as you have described.

Actually, for the purposes of this thread, you should expect divorce under those circumstances. Cheating shouldn't be an option...

 

Mr. Lucky

[Realist3]

The scenario never stated that the participants actions were a surprise, only that they were caught in the marital bed. Readers inferred more than was in evidence.

 

The wife could have known about or suspected the actions for a long time and this was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

 

Did the husband's actions cause her to pull the trigger? Did his choice have a potential and realized consequence of his being deceased? What is the difference?

 

 

In a classic example, the wife returns home to find her husband and his mistress in their bed, making love. She pulls her Glock 23 out of her handbag and fills them both with hollow-points, ending the dynamic with finality.

 

You did say 'in the classic example', and the classic example is one of surprise.

 

Not necessarily caused the pulling of the trigger, but a cause of impaired mental judgement, regardless if she knew of the affair beforehand.

 

In terms of potential and realized consequence, that is hard to say. In my own case, I flat out asked my MOW what he H would do if he found out. She stated point blank, "he could kill you." Whether that was hyperbole or not, it certainly made me aware of a potential consequence.

[woinlove]

The scenario never stated that the participants actions were a surprise, only that they were caught in the marital bed. Readers inferred more than was in evidence.

 

The wife could have known about or suspected the actions for a long time and this was the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

 

Did the husband's actions cause her to pull the trigger? Did his choice have a potential and realized consequence of his being deceased? What is the difference?

 

I think the courts would decide whether this was premeditated or an impulsive act. In some countries, this would make a huge difference, in others not so much, but it would likely still enter the sentencing.

 

There is a difference between premedited/conscious choice and acting in a moment of rage/insanity. Difficult to have an affair completely confined to the latter, so I assume this thread is talking about conscious choice.

 

Maybe I'm getting old , but I just see less and less reason to attribute ANY of my choices to anyone else. I feel like I am the one deciding what to say, what to do, and am perfectly happy taking responsibility for my own choices, words, actions. While I can't see myself ever deciding to cheat, if I ever did, it would only be because I wanted to. I don't want to, so I won't.

 

As for marriage, which maybe is off-topic, but it seems to be coming up a lot in this thread, I also see my words, actions, choices within marriage as under my own control.

[Spark1111]

I agree that no one can make you cheat, not even your spouse.

 

Your spouse can make you angry, disappointed, infuriated, frustrated....but make you cheat? Uh, no.

 

It takes a million small steps, from fueling an attraction, to keeping secrets, to actually engaging in the affair. At any point, I control what I choose to do or not do, in regards to either embarking on an affair, or working on my marraige.

 

Truthfully, no one can make anyone do anything. We only have control of ourselves and our reactions to others.

[carhill]

I'm still interested in the difference, if any, between 'consequence' and 'cause'. That's the thrust of the examples I'm providing. People often state that 'actions have consequences'. Do those same actions 'cause' or impel the process of opening up that box of potential and realized consequences? If they don't, why not? If they do, why?

 

 

We spent about five sessions on this topic in MC, clarifying how actions interweave with actions in a marriage. The psychologist and I nearly came to fisticuffs on a few points. I know how it went in there. I'm interested in how it goes out here. I think the OP opened up a timely and valuable topic.

 

I'll pull back from violence and use a more sedate (theoretical) example:

 

In a moment of anger during an argument, I yell at my wife and call her some very demeaning and inappropriate names. I later apologize. She withdraws emotionally and sexually due to her perception of those events, even after receiving an apology. Did I cause her to withdraw emotionally and sexually? Was her withdrawl a consequence of my actions? How is what I did or did not cause tied to the consequence of her subsequent lack of affection and sexual desire for me? Denial of affection and denial of sex can be very debilitating in an intimate relationship. Hurtful. Did I cause that? Why?

[Cb3657]

Agree strongly with woinlove, control of your own actions is the only true freedom you have, every thing you do is a choice, there is no one thing you had to do, there is always a choice.

Some seem to be saying that the marriage state make the choice tilt one way or the other. I think there is always a ethical choice, one way of acting that rings true to you and to values embraced by our culture.

That choice made the wrong way is why people call it a character flaw, you saw and understood the choice yet still made it, many make a bad choice once and are haunted by the guilt. I actually have sympathy for people who made a bad choice, everyone has made bad decisions. What I think is disingenuous is trying to justify a bad decision by saying the other person made this decision look attactive.

A key skill in life is the skill of standing up and saying " I am accountable" you simply cannot be successful in the long term without this skill, sad to see so many that have yet to learn this.

[drifter777]

I'm still interested in the difference, if any, between 'consequence' and 'cause'. That's the thrust of the examples I'm providing. People often state that 'actions have consequences'. Do those same actions 'cause' or impel the process of opening up that box of potential and realized consequences? If they don't, why not? If they do, why?

 

 

We spent about five sessions on this topic in MC, clarifying how actions interweave with actions in a marriage. The psychologist and I nearly came to fisticuffs on a few points. I know how it went in there. I'm interested in how it goes out here. I think the OP opened up a timely and valuable topic.

 

I'll pull back from violence and use a more sedate (theoretical) example:

 

In a moment of anger during an argument, I yell at my wife and call her some very demeaning and inappropriate names. I later apologize. She withdraws emotionally and sexually due to her perception of those events, even after receiving an apology. Did I cause her to withdraw emotionally and sexually? Was her withdrawl a consequence of my actions? How is what I did or did not cause tied to the consequence of her subsequent lack of affection and sexual desire for me? Denial of affection and denial of sex can be very debilitating in an intimate relationship. Hurtful. Did I cause that? Why?

 

Another dynamic that comes into play here is that someone's words cannot hurt you unless you validate them. This means that if you called me an f'ing whore, it wouldn't bother me because it's not true. I might point out to you that you don't know what you are talking about, but I would not have an emotional reaction because I couldn't validate what you said. If I call my wife an f'ing whore for her cheating she will feel horrible and maybe get angry because that is exactly who she was at that time. She feels tremendous guilt for her selfish, slutty behavior so if I point it out in any way it hurts her because it's something she knows is true. Who want's to remember something they know was wrong and caused so much pain?

 

I think a BS will do this early on after d-day but it should diminish as reconciliation progresses. If hurling "whore" at her is a common occurrence during an argument, something is wrong with your reconciliation. The BS obviously has not moved forward from the anger/rage phase so the couple needs to start the process over again or end the marriage.

[BetrayedH]

And my answer is that in many cases, the bad marriages motivated the WS to decide to cheat.

 

James, this isn't meant to be snarky but a legitimate question...

 

If you discovered that your wife has been cheating extensively for the past year or so, how much responsibility for her cheating would you assume? Would you be here talking about your role in marital problems or do you think you would be expecting her to be accountable for that choice? Please take a moment to consider the amount of out-and-out lying and gaslighting that she would have done in order to keep you off the trail. Imagine her in the throes of sex with some dirtbag while you have been in a low-sex marriage and trying to make it work all this time. I tend to think that you might be insulted at the inference that you somehow caused her to go get her needs met elsewhere after all of the efforts you have made. I think you make legitimate attempts to put yourself in the shoes of others and I admire empathy but truly, if you found that out today, would you be here arguing the case that you were somehow responsible for her decision (asking us what you should have done to improve the marriage) or would you find that to be blameshifting?

[BetrayedH]

According to the logic being used here, there is no cause. This murder simply happened because of a character flaw in the murderer. End of story. According to many BS, the husband and mistress being in bed together had nothing to do with the wife shooting them. She is the only one to blame.

 

She would be the only one on trial for the murder.

[woinlove]

I'm still interested in the difference, if any, between 'consequence' and 'cause'. That's the thrust of the examples I'm providing. People often state that 'actions have consequences'. Do those same actions 'cause' or impel the process of opening up that box of potential and realized consequences? If they don't, why not? If they do, why?

 

 

We spent about five sessions on this topic in MC, clarifying how actions interweave with actions in a marriage. The psychologist and I nearly came to fisticuffs on a few points. I know how it went in there. I'm interested in how it goes out here. I think the OP opened up a timely and valuable topic.

 

I'll pull back from violence and use a more sedate (theoretical) example:

 

In a moment of anger during an argument, I yell at my wife and call her some very demeaning and inappropriate names. I later apologize. She withdraws emotionally and sexually due to her perception of those events, even after receiving an apology. Did I cause her to withdraw emotionally and sexually? Was her withdrawl a consequence of my actions? How is what I did or did not cause tied to the consequence of her subsequent lack of affection and sexual desire for me? Denial of affection and denial of sex can be very debilitating in an intimate relationship. Hurtful. Did I cause that? Why?

 

In our M this is all settled with open and honest communication. There is no cause/consequence debate, just openly and honestly discussing feelings, desires, needs, etc. For the scenario you suggest, the W would say that she doesn't feel aroused or intimate because the words still sting even after the apology. They then sort out together how to heal as a couple. If they can't discuss this, they probably need MC. If they can't move beyond it, there may be a need for IC as well as MC. Perhaps the angry words connect to some fear that needs to be worked through. My own experience is that honest and open communication is the key, but not sure what this has to do with affairs, which are the opposite of honest and open communication.

[woinlove]

According to the logic being used here, there is no cause. This murder simply happened because of a character flaw in the murderer. End of story. According to many BS, the husband and mistress being in bed together had nothing to do with the wife shooting them. She is the only one to blame.

 

Assuming this is premeditated, yes, she chose to murder and should go before the courts for that murder. If it was done in a moment of insane rage, then the circumstances become important to the courts. If, she is mentally ill, she needs medical care. But if it is premeditated, yes, it is all on her. She might have murdered him for his own infidelity, because she fell in love with someone else, because she wanted the insurance money, whatever. It was her decision to kill and hers alone.

 

Most people would not decide to kill another person. Those who do certainly have some "character flaw". Do you disagree with this? Or are you thinking about a moment of insane rage and not premeditated? If so, what does that have to do with deciding to have an affair?

[Spark1111]

James, this isn't meant to be snarky but a legitimate question...

 

If you discovered that your wife has been cheating extensively for the past year or so, how much responsibility for her cheating would you assume? Would you be here talking about your role in marital problems or do you think you would be expecting her to be accountable for that choice? Please take a moment to consider the amount of out-and-out lying and gaslighting that she would have done in order to keep you off the trail. Imagine her in the throes of sex with some dirtbag while you have been in a low-sex marriage and trying to make it work all this time. I tend to think that you might be insulted at the inference that you somehow caused her to go get her needs met elsewhere after all of the efforts you have made. I think you make legitimate attempts to put yourself in the shoes of others and I admire empathy but truly, if you found that out today, would you be here arguing the case that you were somehow responsible for her decision (asking us what you should have done to improve the marriage) or would you find that to be blameshifting?

 

EXACTLY!

 

And after all your attempts to meet her needs, being supportive and kind, while so many of your needs were not met, because you loved her, made excuses for her, waited for her.......you discover SHE'S been having an affair fercryingoutloud!

 

James, sometimes, most times, it really is about the person who chooses to cheat.

 

The remaining 3 percent truly do find happiness and leave, pretty quickly.

[Spark1111]

Assuming this is premeditated, yes, she chose to murder and should go before the courts for that murder. If it was done in a moment of insane rage, then the circumstances become important to the courts. If, she is mentally ill, she needs medical care. But if it is premeditated, yes, it is all on her. She might have murdered him for his own infidelity, because she fell in love with someone else, because she wanted the insurance money, whatever. It was her decision to kill and hers alone.

 

Most people would not decide to kill another person. Those who do certainly have some "character flaw". Do you disagree with this? Or are you thinking about a moment of insane rage and not premeditated? If so, what does that have to do with deciding to have an affair?

 

Well when done in the heat of the moment with no premeditation under circumstances of extreme mental duress, the law calls that manslaughter and it carries a lesser penalty.

[Cb3657]

Character flaws don't take away accountability, you are accountable to your character and your character can change if you want it to or you can overcome a character flaw with a conscious choice.

I honestly don't think there will ever be a way to convince some people that the accountability for their actions lie inside their choices, I think if you are a strong independent person who cares for others your less likely to cheat in the first place,or you may make a bad decision and own it.

if you don't understand personal accountability you will alway argue some mitigating factor to your decision this is a attempt to make others understanding but does noone any favors, you don't live up to your choices and others look at this behaviour with contempt.(see ford pinto)

You simply cannot have a successful life blaming others for your decisions, this is not just BS's saying it, I has been proven over and over in alcoholism, jails and addictions that untill you own the choice you will not break out of your hole.

[carhill]

In our M this is all settled with open and honest communication. There is no cause/consequence debate, just openly and honestly discussing feelings, desires, needs, etc. For the scenario you suggest, the W would say that she doesn't feel aroused or intimate because the words still sting even after the apology. They then sort out together how to heal as a couple. If they can't discuss this, they probably need MC. If they can't move beyond it, there may be a need for IC as well as MC. Perhaps the angry words connect to some fear that needs to be worked through. My own experience is that honest and open communication is the key, but not sure what this has to do with affairs, which are the opposite of honest and open communication.

We're discussing 'cause' and I'm not focusing on any particular relationship, only the theoretical drawn from personal and clinical (examples provided by our psychologist) history.

 

It sounds healthy to state we are islands and completely and totally responsible and accountable for our thoughts, emotions, words and actions. If we're going to agree on that, it must be global, not applicable only to situations/circumstances/dynamics that we choose to apply it to arbitrarily. Take any particular day and analyze it, transactionally. Take any day's worth of threads on LoveShack. Does real life reflect this island theory, in practice? Why or why not? Heck, just reflect upon the last vent session anyone has had with a friend about their spouse or partner, relevant to the forum this thread is posted in. Does it scan?

 

Are posters willing to make an 'exception' for infidelity, asserting that one person can never cause another person to cheat, then turn around and state that such a circumstance can or will not apply to other transactional dynamics in interpersonal relationships? If not, then look at the totality of relationships and apply the assertion. Does it scan? Why or why not?

[woinlove]

We're discussing 'cause' and I'm not focusing on any particular relationship, only the theoretical drawn from personal and clinical (examples provided by our psychologist) history.

 

It sounds healthy to state we are islands and completely and totally responsible and accountable for our thoughts, emotions, words and actions. If we're going to agree on that, it must be global, not applicable only to situations/circumstances/dynamics that we choose to apply it to arbitrarily. Take any particular day and analyze it, transactionally. Take any day's worth of threads on LoveShack. Does real life reflect this island theory, in practice? Why or why not? Heck, just reflect upon the last vent session anyone has had with a friend about their spouse or partner, relevant to the forum this thread is posted in. Does it scan?

 

Are posters willing to make an 'exception' for infidelity, asserting that one person can never cause another person to cheat, then turn around and state that such a circumstance can or will not apply to other transactional dynamics in interpersonal relationships? If not, then look at the totality of relationships and apply the assertion. Does it scan? Why or why not?

 

As I stated above, I don't make an exception for infidelity. I take responsibility for all my words, actions, choices, and in particular, the ones which are wrong or hurt others. He/she did it first, get's kind of tired after a while and I don't have much stomach for it. If someone says something I think is mean on LS, yes, I may respond. But I take full accountability for my response.

[StoneCold]

I'd like to chime in...

 

James, this isn't meant to be snarky but a legitimate question...

 

If you discovered that your wife has been cheating extensively for the past year or so, how much responsibility for her cheating would you assume?

 

Depends..... was the marriage screwed up to begin with? It probably was...

 

If so, I'm sure I played a hand in the demise which may have played a part in influencing her decision. And if thats the case I'll face the music for my hand in it..... I contributed to the demise of the marriage and because the marriage went down so far many things happened as a result...her cheating was of them. I guess thats what I got for poking the bear....is it fair? or "even steven"? maybe, maybe not.....but who said life was on a scale like that? We all know this but many still choose to play with fire.....oh well

 

Would you be here talking about your role in marital problems or do you think you would be expecting her to be accountable for that choice?

 

I'd be far more interested in talking about how both parties let things get so messed up to the point where one or more parties no longer cared. That to me is a far more constructive and yielding topic.

 

me going off saying "she cheated, she cheated, she cheated....." ....that does jack, you learn nothing and you dont grow

 

Please take a moment to consider the amount of out-and-out lying and gaslighting that she would have done in order to keep you off the trail. Imagine her in the throes of sex with some dirtbag while you have been in a low-sex marriage and trying to make it work all this time. I tend to think that you might be insulted at the inference that you somehow caused her to go get her needs met elsewhere after all of the efforts you have made. I think you make legitimate attempts to put yourself in the shoes of others and I admire empathy but truly, if you found that out today, would you be here arguing the case that you were somehow responsible for her decision (asking us what you should have done to improve the marriage) or would you find that to be blameshifting?

 

Not if I knew that I was playing my messed up hand too.....

 

.....and yes Betrayed H....I've been on the other side of the fence as well.

Edited December 11, 2012 by StoneCold

[carhill]

As I stated above, I don't make an exception for infidelity. I take responsibility for all my words, actions, choices, and in particular, the ones which are wrong or hurt others. He/she did it first, get's kind of tired after a while and I don't have much stomach for it. If someone says something I think is mean on LS, yes, I may respond. But I take full accountability for my response.

Great. Let's apply that to 'cause'. The person who was, perceptively, 'mean', apparently rose from the page enough to warrant a response, which you take full accountability for. If they hadn't wrote something 'mean', such a response and its contemporaneous accountability by yourself would not have existed, since there would have been no perception of 'mean' nor any response to 'mean'. The 'mean' comment has a correlation to the response. It's connected.

 

Can you envision this example being applied to the actions which you and others deplore as 'infidelity'? Use the same accountability standard, for clarity and continuity. Yes, there are unfaithful partners who do not accept and declare accountability, and those are a separate dynamic from both those who do as well as from the gist of the 'cause'. They are creating their own 'causes' for subsequent acts and omissions. If we submit that there are acts in the M that are perceptively 'mean' and one partner responds by being unfaithful, and are accountable for that infidelity, are the 'mean' acts connected to the infidelity? *Can* they 'cause' it. Not will, not always, not forever, but only 'can'?

 

As my last theoretical example, I'll ask:

 

"If I accept that I caused, by my words/actions or omission of same in my marriage, my spouse to be unfaithful, how does that reflect upon myself? If I do not accept any causal responsibility, the same. How does that act reflect upon myself, my psychology, my mental and emotional health? What has my choice to accept or not accept causal responsibility caused?"

 

Thanks for the enlightening discussion. I'll enjoy coming back, re-reading, and learning more.

Edited December 11, 2012 by carhill

[Cb3657]

No response nessesary to a " mean " comment, if you are making choices you can choose not to respond. I understand your job likely makes you argue everyday for mitigating causes and connections from actions to reactions. Have you ever had a judge make a bad decision and you reacted, does he own a piece of your reaction or was it on you to understand courtroom decorum and not act poorly?

I think slicing the personal responsibility pie smaller and smaller till situations come up that you can say the decision factors were so tilted that the wrong decision was the right decision is alway posible, I just don't believe it. Right or wrong I have done some things I am not proud off but I own it.

[nofool4u]

We choose many feelings and actions based on how someone else acts or doesn't act.

 

Enough said.

 

I know you'll say you didn't say it, but with that you pretty much put the blame on the BS, and have the resident cheaters who do blame their spouses liking it and agreeing with you.