JamesM Posted December 13, 2012 Posted December 13, 2012 As I said, I hardly ever think in terms of another person causing me to do anything But they do cause you to do things. You may not do anything unethical, but your actions can be a result of many things as minor as advertising or as a angry reaction what someone said. Was your choice of president (assuming USA here) a choice that was not effected by any outward influence? Are your choices of goods, food or clothing affected by those around you including ads and magazine or TV commercials? And so our actions within a marriage are affected by the actions of our spouse.
JamesM Posted December 13, 2012 Posted December 13, 2012 A cheater has LOTS of time to decide what to do about their situation. A child who has just been hit does not. It's a quick reaction to a situation thrust upon them in the heat of a moment. The time difference does not mean it is not an emotional reaction. And affairs are certainly not all planned. Many begin step by step, and if you asked the person going down that road to answer honestly if they expect to be having sex with the person, then most would say no. They are simply enjoying this diversion and fantasy for whatever reason. And we read of women here who upon discovering their husband's affair REACTED by planning how in the future they could leave him and divorce him. Planning does not make it less of a reaction. And, again, when does a cheater actually TELL their spouse about the A? That doesn't make it any less of a reaction. Again, many men in sexless marriages have never been told why the wife doesn't want sex. Anything the cheater is PO'd at the spouse about is, at least, something they KNOW about, thus can DO something about, while a cheater is sneaking around and hiding everything. Again, many who have chosen an affair did so after they had expressed their feelings to the BS over the problems. Of course not all. Nope. Not even close. Yes. It is.
Snowflower Posted December 13, 2012 Posted December 13, 2012 But they do cause you to do things. You may not do anything unethical, but your actions can be a result of many things as minor as advertising or as a angry reaction what someone said. Was your choice of president (assuming USA here) a choice that was not effected by any outward influence? Are your choices of goods, food or clothing affected by those around you including ads and magazine or TV commercials? And so our actions within a marriage are affected by the actions of our spouse. James, I've read your posts here for quite awhile and will try to say this as politely as I can but I've noticed a change in the nature of your posts. It seems to me that you are working very hard to talk yourself into having an affair, or at least sex outside your marriage. I may be way out of line, in fact I'm sure I am , but you seem to be going to great lengths to convince everyone here (but I think it is mostly to convince yourself) that it is okay in some circumstances to blame your spouse while having an affair. My H and I were in a pretty sexless marriage before his affair. Was that part of his rationale/excuse for doing what he did? Yes, but it was much more than that for him. He has a great need for external validation and attention. I blamed myself for a long time for "causing" him to have an affair but in the end he was the one who made that decision...a decision that I/we have realized as time has gone and we have reconciled and healed and learned, this was all on him. So while some posters on here can pontificate (love that word) about how a BS can be a causation for a WS to step outside, in the end it doesn't really matter. The aftermath is painful and takes a long time to fix. You're a decent guy James, don't start down this road. 3
woinlove Posted December 13, 2012 Posted December 13, 2012 But they do cause you to do things. You may not do anything unethical, but your actions can be a result of many things as minor as advertising or as a angry reaction what someone said. Was your choice of president (assuming USA here) a choice that was not effected by any outward influence? Are your choices of goods, food or clothing affected by those around you including ads and magazine or TV commercials? And so our actions within a marriage are affected by the actions of our spouse. Yes, I am influenced and affected by many people, but when it comes to my values and ethics, I do what I want. Someone else behaving unethically is not going to cause me to behave unethically. If I behave unethically it is because of my own failings; that is the cause of any of my own unethical behavior. 2
frozensprouts Posted December 13, 2012 Posted December 13, 2012 You are very right. Affairs are not always about a lack of sex. And even when the WS says they are, they may be about a lack of emotional closeness. Thanks for sharing about your parents. That would have been hard to take as a man and not be able to talk about it...as was even more common a few decades ago. (No comment on your age. ) Question if it doesn't get us off topic too much...why DID your husband cheat according to him? And why do YOU think he did? a couple of reasons... he was ina very bad place emotionally...two of our kids had been very recently diagnosed with chronic health conditions ( our youngest has autism and mild ADHD, our oldest has apsergers, fibromylagia, an anxiety disorder and mild depression)...our son will probably never live on his own and she might not either, and our "middle kid' had been diagnosed with a transient condition ( optic neuritis) that we were told may be a precursor to developing MS later in life. He was also due to go on his first deployment to Afghanistan in a few months, and had been a pallbearer for a friend who had been killed there by an IED ( roadside bomb). His parents didn't want him to go, and were giving him a really hard time about it and making him feel guilty for going. ( they were very controlling and abusive of him as a child). In short, he was under a huge amount of stress, and didn't know how to deal with it. If I tried to talk to him about it, he would just shut me out ( didn't want to burden me with his problems), and after a while, that somehow turned , in his mind, into me not caring. He was also raised to not talk about his feelings and to "be a man"... It was really strange to see the guy who had always been really sweet and kind and trustworthy turn into someone I didn't know anymore...if I tried to talk to him about it, he'd either tell me he was worried about work and I wouldn't understand so there was no point in talking about it or just shut me out completely... He was deployed only a few weeks after his affair ended, so we had to do most of our reconciling when he got back. He got help from a psychiatrist, psychologist and we saw a counselor together. They all said pretty much the same thing...he was just under a huge amount of stress and handled it really badly... I'm really glad he got the help he needed to deal with stress, as even if he had never cheated, it was really hard on him to feel that way all the time...he's much happier now ( none of this is to say that our marriage had no problems. all marraiges do, but we never really gave much thought into how to handle them...we really believed that if you love someone enough, everything will just work itself out...that is so NOT true...it took a lot of effort and understanding from both of us) 1
JamesM Posted December 13, 2012 Posted December 13, 2012 James, I've read your posts here for quite awhile and will try to say this as politely as I can but I've noticed a change in the nature of your posts. It seems to me that you are working very hard to talk yourself into having an affair, or at least sex outside your marriage. I may be way out of line, in fact I'm sure I am , but you seem to be going to great lengths to convince everyone here (but I think it is mostly to convince yourself) that it is okay in some circumstances to blame your spouse while having an affair. You're a decent guy James, don't start down this road. Thanks for saying it. But you would be wrong. Actually, if the "trend" continues, then I hope to start a thread about how my marriage has greatly improved. Our sex is much better (once a week) and our emotional connection is greatly improved. My wife is leaving little notes around for me ("Love ya...you are awesome! ) like she used to do. I make her laugh again. She makes me laugh again. She spends time kissing and hugging where she avoided it in the past. No, I don't say it as a reason to justify myself. I simply understand having been in the position that many have been in. I know how a bad marriage can get someone in a bad enough place to choose an affair over the precious future of a marriage. I love your posts and learn from them...but this one isn't correct. 1
Snowflower Posted December 13, 2012 Posted December 13, 2012 Thanks for saying it. But you would be wrong. Actually, if the "trend" continues, then I hope to start a thread about how my marriage has greatly improved. Our sex is much better (once a week) and our emotional connection is greatly improved. My wife is leaving little notes around for me ("Love ya...you are awesome! ) like she used to do. I make her laugh again. She makes me laugh again. She spends time kissing and hugging where she avoided it in the past. No, I don't say it as a reason to justify myself. I simply understand having been in the position that many have been in. I know how a bad marriage can get someone in a bad enough place to choose an affair over the precious future of a marriage. I love your posts and learn from them...but this one isn't correct. Well, I am very relieved and happy to hear this James. I'm glad things are better in your marriage. Since you understand a lot about being in the position of a man in sexless marriage, but have avoided the temptation of an affair, then why don't you use your powers for good instead of for, um, evil? I mean this kindly, of course! Perhaps use your experience with these types of situations to warn people away from an affair (yes, we have those types of posters here from time to time) or by trying to get someone to stop their affair? Particularly those who are in sexless marriages? Honestly, I'm not telling you how to post. It's just that you're really good at explaining yourself but it seems like you're kinda defending cheating spouses sometimes! 2
woinlove Posted December 13, 2012 Posted December 13, 2012 In the real world, where consequences are actually felt, most parents understand that their kids' behavior can be strongly influenced by the actions of their peers. That doesn't remove the responsibility from the person who does the acts, but the failure to acknowledge the effect of environmental influences on an individual's behavior (child or adult) is not consistent with how most people tend to behave in social environments. People who are unwilling to recognize that they are subject to the influences, subtle and otherwise, of the people and environments they associate with, are ironically more prone to overstepping boundaries, precisely because they refuse to acknowledge that they can be influenced. How many times have we read of an unfaithful person saying "It was an accident...it just happened...I never in a million years dreamed I would ever cheat." Being in the wrong place, at the wrong time, with the wrong person influenced their behavior, despite the fact that they are "responsible" for it. Influence is quite different from cause. Also, influence from peers and such usually diminishes as we age. Children are still forming their opinions, views and values and are most susceptible to peer influence. I also don't think one can conclude that just because a WS uses the language of "it just happened" that it means they were in the wrong place/time or under someone else's influence. Often it is simply a way of distancing themselves from their own choices. It is not at all uncommon for a WS to try to avoid taking responsibility for his/her own choices. People who think others cause them to behave dishonestly and unethically have a problem, imo. I know when I behave dishonestly or unethically, that it comes from within me, and recognizing that gives me the insight to make better choices in the future. If one is subject to the whims of others in behaving unethically, then it seems like there is no hope for future improvement. You never know when someone else might cause you to do something unethical, dishonest or even illegal, if you are that susceptible and don't have control over your own actions. 2
Spark1111 Posted December 13, 2012 Posted December 13, 2012 In the real world, where consequences are actually felt, most parents understand that their kids' behavior can be strongly influenced by the actions of their peers. That doesn't remove the responsibility from the person who does the acts, but the failure to acknowledge the effect of environmental influences on an individual's behavior (child or adult) is not consistent with how most people tend to behave in social environments. People who are unwilling to recognize that they are subject to the influences, subtle and otherwise, of the people and environments they associate with, are ironically more prone to overstepping boundaries, precisely because they refuse to acknowledge that they can be influenced. How many times have we read of an unfaithful person saying "It was an accident...it just happened...I never in a million years dreamed I would ever cheat." Being in the wrong place, at the wrong time, with the wrong person influenced their behavior, despite the fact that they are "responsible" for it. Of course! Like Grandma always, "If you lie down with dogs, you wake up with fleas." Often, where behaviors like infidelity is concerned, a person begins to justify the poor behavior before they seek out others who support that position. Why? Then it's not so bad, see, others believe that too. It's like the chicken and the egg. Which came first? Often hard to tell. 1
Author BetrayedH Posted December 13, 2012 Author Posted December 13, 2012 in·flu·ence /ˈinflo͝oəns/ Noun The capacity to have an effect on the character, development, or behavior of someone or something, or the effect itself. Verb Have an influence on. Synonyms noun. effect - hold - impact - authority - action - swayverb. affect - sway - work - operate The lack of the word "cause" is duly noted. 3
woinlove Posted December 13, 2012 Posted December 13, 2012 Since we are checking definitions now cause (kôz) n. 1. a. The producer of an effect, result, or consequence. b. The one, such as a person, event, or condition, that is responsible for an action or result. 2. A basis for an action or response; a reason: The doctor's report gave no cause for alarm. tr.v. caused, caus·ing, caus·es 1. To be the cause of or reason for; result in. 2. To bring about or compel by authority or force: The moderator invoked a rule causing the debate to be ended.
Realist3 Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 flat·u·lent adjective \-lənt\ Definition of FLATULENT 1 a: likely to cause gas b: marked by or affected with gas generated in the intestine or stomach 2 : pompously or portentously overblown 1
sweet_pea Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 flat·u·lent adjective \-lənt\ Definition of FLATULENT 1 a: likely to cause gas b: marked by or affected with gas generated in the intestine or stomach 2 : pompously or portentously overblown I actually laughed out loud at this, Realist, you're too much! 1
Realist3 Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 I actually laughed out loud at this, Realist, you're too much! I think I misposted. That should have been for the 'spilling the beans' thread. 5
Snowflower Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 I think I misposted. That should have been for the 'spilling the beans' thread. It would have been hilarious on that thread too. Thanks for the laugh.
sweet_pea Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 Wait, what? I'm mistaken? Spark's spouse did not cheat on her repeatedly? Her aphorism about the dog with the fleas and those who lie down with it, wasn't intended to reference people who associate with cheaters? Or, the aphorism applies to every cheater except hers? Where does it say that? Where does it say the dog that spark lies down with doesn't have fleas? I didn't see that, did you? In that case let me offer my sincere apologies for misunderstanding what she was trying to say. Where did your post go, Duck?
Spark1111 Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 Jeez, I missed it? And I was agreeing withDuck'spost? I'll have to defer to his superior argument, I guess, as he has experienced infidelity first hand?Yes? And therefore must know of which he speaks so eloquently about. Imust have caused my fWS to have cheated on me. I was the cause or the influence of his choice to have a affair? Who knew? And boy, do I feel better now that I have been so enlightened. 2
Author BetrayedH Posted December 14, 2012 Author Posted December 14, 2012 I think I see the problem here. People who have never cheated and can't fully empathize with a cheater (I wouldn't really expect them to readily do so anyway), using entirely linear thinking, don't believe that a cheater could be caused or influenced to cheat by the actions of their BS, because as a BS who never cheated, THEY were never caused or influenced to cheat. But we're not discussing whether or not a person who has never cheated was caused to cheat by their spouse, since they obviously couldn't have been by definition--they never cheated. Since everyone acknowledges the existence of revenge affairs, which obviously are caused by the initial wayward's actions, it's kind of a ridiculous non-starter to try to argue that it's impossible for the conduct of one spouse to cause or at least contribute to the cheating of their spouse. When someone has a revenge affair they say "I am cheating on you specifically because you cheated on me first." Had the first spouse never cheated, the revenge affair would not have happened. Do you actually think someone like BH would have had a revenge affair had his wife not cheated on him first? I don't think so. He is morally responsible for his actions, but clearly, her action were a very big cause of him having his revenge affair. You know, it's interesting that this has been brought up because I've been analyzing my own RA and trying to determine my thoughts about it in relation to this question. I haven't commented on it because I want to be honest, not argumentative for an argument's sake. Over time, I have assumed (internally) much more responsibility for my decision to have my own "balance" affair. Some may use words like character flaw, lack of character, or poor character. The word that seems to resonate with me is, broken. I think most people would say that cheating goes against their own standards. I think a person that violates their own standards is broken in a sense. Some are perhaps inherently broken since childhood. Some suffer a trauma. I suppose there are a myriad of examples. As for me, I was most certainly broken about six times over. At the time, I had every rationalization in the book for having my own affair. In the end, none of them justify the decision I made. I, too, had an obligation to fix the marriage or leave it. In some bizarre fashion, I determined that having an affair was the best decision to fix my marriage - to get over it. Upon reflection, I don't think my wife's cheating caused me to cheat. I think my own broken thought processes allowed me to make my own decision to do so. I made that decision on my own. I regret it and I own it. At the time? Not so much. I blamed her. She blamed herself. But at the end of the day, I know that I was the only one in charge of that decision. No one made it for me. No one caused me to make it. I used my own broken thinking to do somethig against my own values and it's no one's fault but my own. Certainly, there can be contributing factors that we choose to weigh in the decision. We can have a bad marriage or a bad spouse. But these alone are clearly not enough to cause a person to cheat because we see people stay faithful in those scenarios all the time. We also see people that clearly did NOT cause their spouse to cheat, yet their spouse cheated anyway. And in all of these cases of "bad marriages," the BS was in the same marriage yet did not cheat. There must be another variable. What is clear as a necessary ingredient to cheating is a person broken enough (or with poor enough character, as some might say) to make such a decision. A healthy person decides not to cheat despite external influences; a broken person may decide to cheat even in the absence of such stressors. Ultimately, it is on the person making the decision to make the healthy one. If they don't, they can blame no one but themselves. I think shifting the blame to the external stressors is simply an attempt to rationalize our broken decisions. It helps us to deflect the blame elsewhere. Again, I see it as blameshifting. I won't do it anymore and I wish other waywards would stop doing it, too. Regardless of external factors, the power was within us to make a healthier decision and we chose not to do so. My BS didn't cause me to cheat and neither did anyone else's. 6
Decorative Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 You impress me everyday , BetrayedH. True story. 4
Furious Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 BH I have such a high regard for your honesty. You are an exceptional man! 4
Author BetrayedH Posted December 14, 2012 Author Posted December 14, 2012 You impress me everyday , BetrayedH. True story. Thanks Decorative. Have you decided if you accept my apology yet.
Decorative Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 Thanks Decorative. Have you decided if you accept my apology yet. Of course. Long ago. I apologize for my behavior back then, too. 1
waterwoman Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 in·flu·ence /ˈinflo͝oəns/ Noun The capacity to have an effect on the character, development, or behavior of someone or something, or the effect itself. Verb Have an influence on. Synonyms noun. effect - hold - impact - authority - action - swayverb. affect - sway - work - operate And not one of those synomyms is 'cause'. Effect on or influence over is not the same as cause. You cannot cause a person to do something unless you physically do so - if I push someone into a fire I might cause you to be burned. If instead I suggested to that person they were a worthless POS and deserved to burn to death in that fire, I might have influenced them to jump in the fire but I wouldn't have caused you to do so. 1
Author BetrayedH Posted December 14, 2012 Author Posted December 14, 2012 And not one of those synomyms is 'cause'. Effect on or influence over is not the same as cause. You cannot cause a person to do something unless you physically do so - if I push someone into a fire I might cause you to be burned. If instead I suggested to that person they were a worthless POS and deserved to burn to death in that fire, I might have influenced them to jump in the fire but I wouldn't have caused you to do so. Waterwoman, you need to be focused on being fed strawberries and drinking mimosas. 2
waterwoman Posted December 14, 2012 Posted December 14, 2012 Waterwoman, you need to be focused on being fed strawberries and drinking mimosas. Dammit, you are sooo right! I need to listen to my inner princess ..... assuming I have one. I think I swapped her for a housekeeper a few decades ago.
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