Is there really a fundamental difference?

[cocorico]

After reading a ton of posts on here over the years, I'm beginning to wonder if there is some kind of fundamental difference between the way other men/women, wayward spouses and betrayed spouses view marriage and romantic relationships..

y

 

I think there are differences.

 

There certainly were differences between how I, as a fOW, and my H, as a fWS, viewed M. To him, M was a lifetime commitment, "for better or worse" you were bound by pro uses you'd made as a babe in arms, irrespective if changing circumstances or needs. I was far more pragmatic - to me, any R irrespective of its label is only worth continuing investment if the good outweighs the bad, and if there is abuse of any severity, on even a single occasion, any "contract" is rendered void.

 

My views are still largely the same, in that I will still instantly exit any R that a features any kind of abuse or lack of respect, and would not continue to invest in any R that was characterised by more negativity than positivity. His views are now closer to mine - though he still attaches considerable weight to duty and obligation, this is now framed as "commitment" which you voluntarily buy into rather than a life sentence, which is considerable progress IMO.

 

As for the BS's views, I can only comment based on her actions and her on-the-record views, which are that M is the societally instantiated oppression of women by men, and a means for a woman to escape from the oppressive regime of one man (her father) by entering into the oppressive regime of another (her H) and it is this incumbent on her to seek at all opportunities to assert agency by undermining the central tenets of M - by refusing to acknowledge its fundamental premise of monogamy and subordination. (Please note - this applies only to the woman, in her more recently clarified view, since the woman is the "subordinate" and thus such acts are seen as liberating; if a man does them, they are simply perpetuating the oppression.)

[BetrayedH]

Sorry, it's just how I feel. Atheists have a distinct lack of a source for moral standards. I took part in a series of ethics discussions in college for a while. The prof who led it brought up confusing moral situation after confusing moral situation. There was never any resolution, most of the participants being atheists..they couldn't even begin to determine right from wrong. They had no source. It really really turned me off towards atheism. Sometimes we need some guidance and ground rules. I don't hate atheists, honestly I think sometimes they have a better view of "God" than theists do... I absolutely loathe the focus on miracle, magic, and supernatural BS that most religious people seem to have. For me it's all about morality and plain old spirituality. It may be offensive to you, but we'll just have to probably agree to disagree. I feel having some sort of set standard helps bring order to things. To me atheism is kinda like anarchy I guess, except with morality and spirituality. Too much chaos. There's a balance somewhere in there. I also believe in individual search for the truth.

 

Also my wife told me in no uncertain terms that she didn't believe in an after life and she wasn't going to waste time any time she had. It was a cop out, with the excuse that she only had so much time left and she was going to use her time for HER. Screw the family... yeahh....

 

I think your wife may have had the philosophy that we only have one life and there are only "consequences" but that doesn't represent all unbelievers.

 

I am certainly not perfect but I don't think my compass is off at all. As with Decorative, my wife and her OM were the religious ones. Great bit of good that did my kids. Your wife's atheism may have influenced her (if it leads you to believe in selfishness) but I think many atheists are powerful thinkers and have a strong ethical foundation, it just doesn't come from faith or a book.

[waterwoman]

I don't beleive in god. Was brought up in the church (CofE) and still have a lot of fondness for the traditions but no belieif. I take serious issue with being told that makes me less moral - I don't need a god to tell me how to behave decently thanks very much. And reading a lot of the threads on here I can't see how having a faith makes you any less likely to betray, cheat or lie. There seem to be a lot of people heavily involved in church life who have affairs.

 

Actually this is one of the odd things about LS (for me anyway). Many people on here profess a faith - where I am (UK) those who do so are in the minority.

[frozensprouts]

I'm agnostic, there may be something that keeps the universe chugging along ( Dea ex machina?), but as the saying goes, it's "not for me to know the mind of god...", and I wouldn't want to know it anyway...

 

 

people can have zero ethics or moral compass, no matter what their religious beliefs or lack thereof....the only difference is that they find different excuses for their hurtful behavior...a religious person blames "the devil" ( or what have you), while the non religious blames genetics, society, "human nature" or moral relativism....either way, it changes nothing

 

personally, i think that if a person has religious beliefs, and these beliefs encourage them to be a better person, to treat others well, to be gentle and kind, to be loving, and to understand that they are not the center of the universe, then that's a good thing...the same is true of an atheist or agnostic

[Realist3]

On some level, wouldn't it have been so much easier and better for you to reconnect with your wife, put love, care and energy into her, instead of selfishly going outside of your marriage and wasting it on someone else? Aka your OW.

 

Obviously not. As I tried to point out earlier, sometimes the other partner just can't get there; they are incapable. It is not necessarily their fault either, it is just who they are. After a 28 year relationship you have a pretty clear idea of what can and can't be done.

[Ninja'sHusband]

That is discrimination against an entire group of people, based on your misunderstanding of what atheism is, and your wife's twisted excuse of it.

 

As for your class of atheists? I am confused. Are atheists somehow sheltered from society- raised by wolves? No instruction at all on right and wrong? What planet does that happen on? I am going to call foul. And also ask what school you attended where the percentage of atheists was so high that it filled an entire class of morally depraved people that had no idea of right and wrong?

 

Come. On.

 

I cannot believe I am going to say this, but Hitler was religious. Look back through history at the greatest acts of destruction and harm. You'll find a religious attachment. Morals and a sense of right don't come strictly from religious instruction, nor are they insulation against wrongdoing.

 

Your belief in the supernatural cannot be the only thing holding a person back from doing harm in the world. Fear based action is not the way to go through life. Most religious people I know are good and kind and loving people, who wish to bring no harm to others. Same as the atheists I know. Most atheists I know have come to their decision through careful introspection, same as those who are believers.

 

Don't let your wife's horrible behavior cloud you to reason.

 

Sorry for the thread jack.

 

Hmm, I don't want you to think I'm prejudiced against atheists. I felt in my wife's case it may have affected her decisions. I think there are a lot of really good atheists out there and a lot of really bad theists. Just because atheists don't have a standard source for their morals doesn't mean they don't have any morals. I wasn't saying that at all.

 

The group I was talking about that I took part in in college was a discussion group. The prof had invited people from his various actual classes to take part in this extracurricular free series of discussions called "Fact, Faith, and Heresy". Probably it was mostly atheists because that's the group of people that were most interested? Or maybe musicians don't believe in God? I dunno lol. The people in the class were not immoral, I never said that. The prof would bring up morally ambiguous scenarios. To stress that let me give an example this time: "Say someone tells you to shoot them, is it wrong to do it?" I would say murder is wrong. I said these atheists couldn't tell right from wrong, true, but only in these weird confusing scenarios the prof would bring up. They got more and more confusing and ambiguous as the series went. The example I gave was probably the simplest one. It got to where I didn't participate...because I had a code to go by. There wasn't anything to discuss for me. I don't think the atheist majority ever came to a decision on a single problem he brought up. They couldn't get past square #1.

 

Am I saying all atheists are immoral? NO. Am I saying religious people are all good? No!

 

I am saying

1) in this case my wife my wife may have been influenced by her lack of code and lack of believe in afterlife and God.

2) Atheists lack a standard set of moral guidelines.

 

I'm not going to convince you there is a God and that you should follow any particular religion's laws. You aren't going to convince me that there is no benefit to religion. To me religion originally came about because of a lack of morality and spirituality. Atheists would probably say it was to explain the unknown...I think the real thing that religion gives us is morality. Where do kids learn morality? How many secular classes teach it? Is it in our schools? Mostly, No...they learn at Sunday school, or in Baha'i children's class, or whatever religious class' are provided for children. When atheists step up and tout these kinds of things in a serious way then I might start to fall away from religion. I'll tell you that for adults it is better, I had to walk away from religion to get answers about how to deal with my wife's infidelity. Though come to think of it, the main author I found to be useful is Christian...

 

btw I'm Baha'i, one of the most open and accepting religions you will find on the face of the planet (apart from Unitarian Universalism)

The Bahá

 

Please don't think I'm trying to say you are immoral. I'm saying my wife was and used atheism as an excuse in her mind. Just because I choose to go one way doesn't mean I'm judging you for going another way. I'll stick to having a "God" given code because I think it serves a purpose. I don't even know what "God" is...and any theist who claims they do is full of *&*(#!

 

You can do what you want! Find your own truth for yourself, that's actually a fundamental Baha'i principle.

 

 

One last point. Religion can be used as an excuse for doing bad things....over zealousness for instance...and atheism and lack of belief in any accountability can also be used as an excuse. It goes both ways. There's good and bad in every group. Unfortunately I think a lack of a code *can* contribute to lack of faithfulness to one's spouse. Marriage is an institution born out of religion. Our wedding was mixed Christian and Baha'i traditions. My wife lost respect for marriage the more she turned away from religion.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Ninja'sHusband

[Decorative]

Sorry, it's just how I feel. Atheists have a distinct lack of a source for moral standards. I took part in a series of ethics discussions in college for a while. The prof who led it brought up confusing moral situation after confusing moral situation. There was never any resolution, most of the participants being atheists..they couldn't even begin to determine right from wrong. They had no source. It really really turned me off towards atheism. Sometimes we need some guidance and ground rules. I don't hate atheists, honestly I think sometimes they have a better view of "God" than theists do... I absolutely loathe the focus on miracle, magic, and supernatural BS that most religious people seem to have. For me it's all about morality and plain old spirituality. It may be offensive to you, but we'll just have to probably agree to disagree. I feel having some sort of set standard helps bring order to things. To me atheism is kinda like anarchy I guess, except with morality and spirituality. Too much chaos. There's a balance somewhere in there. I also believe in individual search for the truth.

 

Also my wife told me in no uncertain terms that she didn't believe in an after life and she wasn't going to waste time any time she had. It was a cop out, with the excuse that she only had so much time left and she was going to use her time for HER. Screw the family... yeahh....

 

I never stated that there was no benefit to religion, nor was I trying to convince you of such a thing. I was careful not to say that, because I don't believe that.

 

I am pointing out that you are prejudiced against a group of people based on misinformation and false assumptions.

 

Your wife lied to you. Be careful not to let her lies color your view of decent, caring and kind people who make good and solid choices every single day, simply because they don't believe in the supernatural.

 

And also? Atheism? Isn't a belief system. It is simply a lack of belief. Period.

 

And not to be argumentative- but I do not believe that you sat in a room full of grownups, predominantly atheists, who could not discern right from wrong. I do not believe that. Unless you were participating in a discussion group populated by people that never met anyone else before, never went to school , and never read a book in their lives.

 

It doesn't sound remotely true.

 

Religion to religion - there are different standards. Mostly based upon a non religious standard, the golden rule ( posited from code of Hammarabi) with population based differences that expand it.

 

I hope that no one ever speaks to you about your religion with the derision, assumption, and lack of clarity you have ascribed to the atheists/agnostics.

 

It remains offensive, and your further explanation simply made it worse.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Decorative

[Ninja'sHusband]

I never stated that there was no benefit to religion, nor was I trying to convince you of such a thing. I was careful not to say that, because I don't believe that.

 

I am pointing out that you are prejudiced against a group of people based on misinformation and false assumptions.

 

Your wife lied to you. Be careful not to let her lies color your view of decent, caring and kind people who make good and solid choices every single day, simply because they don't believe in the supernatural.

 

And also? Atheism? Isn't a belief system. It is simply a lack of belief. Period.

 

And not to be argumentative- but I do not believe that you sat in a room full of grownups, predominantly atheists, who could not discern right from wrong. I do not believe that. Unless you were participating in a discussion group populated by people that never met anyone else before, never went to school , and never read a book in their lives.

 

It doesn't sound remotely true.

 

Religion to religion - there are different standards. Mostly based upon a non religious standard, the golden rule, with population based differences that expand it.

 

I hope that no one ever speaks to you about your religion with the derision, assumption, and lack of clarity you have ascribed to the atheists/agnostics.

 

It remains offensive, and your further explanation simply made it worse.

I guess I can't keep you from being offended at me recognizing what part of my wife's motivations were. I don't translate that view to you.

 

You should have heard the questions the prof was asking in that group. They were massively ambiguous confusing questions. The way you respond makes it sound like he was asking "Should you steal?" and the response was "Gee I dunno!". It wasn't like that at all. You can keep believing I'm saying they had no morals, that's not what went down, you're right that the way you repeat it back to me sounds completely false and unlikely.

 

btw I HATE the word "supernatural" when it comes to real life ( I LOVE it in fantasy though ^^)

 

To me there's a natural spiritual cause/effect world out there. If you spew hate to someone, there's a natural reaction.

 

Yup, religions have a common ground. That's a basic Baha'i concept, though we claim it comes from spirituality(or God, whatever that is)

 

Does it bother you that I said you don't have a standard set of moral guidelines? Do you think that means I feel you have no morals? I totally recognize atheism is a lack of belief. That's precisely why there's no standard. Nothing binds you together.

 

What makes atheists bound to marriage? What vows did you use when you got married? My wife vowed to "Abide by the will of God" on our wedding day. But then she slowly turned atheist...so what meaning did that have for her?

 

 

(looks like my old prof still does that series. I just looked it up, "Ethics, Faith, Fact, and Heresy")

Edited December 7, 2012 by Ninja'sHusband

[Decorative]

I guess I can't keep you from being offended at me recognizing what part of my wife's motivations were. I don't translate that view to you.

 

You should have heard the questions the prof was asking in that group. They were massively ambiguous confusing questions. The way you respond makes it sound like he was asking "Should you steal?" and the response was "Gee I dunno!". It wasn't like that at all. You can keep believing I'm saying they had no morals, that's not what went down, you're right that the way you repeat it back to me sounds completely false and unlikely.

 

btw I HATE the word "supernatural" when it comes to real life ( I LOVE it in fantasy though ^^)

 

To me there's a natural spiritual cause/effect world out there. If you spew hate to someone, there's a natural reaction.

 

Yup, religions have a common ground. That's a basic Baha'i concept, though we claim it comes from spirituality(or God, whatever that is)

 

Does it bother you that I said you don't have a standard set of moral guidelines? Do you think that means I feel you have no morals? I totally recognize atheism is a lack of belief. That's precisely why there's no standard. Nothing binds you together.

 

What makes atheists bound to marriage? What vows did you use when you got married? My wife vowed to "Abide by the will of God" on our wedding day. But then she slowly turned atheist...so what meaning did that have for her?

 

 

She turned atheist- so she was raised with religious values? And still made her choices?

 

We were married in a church, at my spouse's request- because he is religious

. My vows were to love, honor and cherish, and to keep myself only unto him. which, as an atheist, I have been able to clearly comprehend and follow. It is a contract, an agreement, and a decision. I have never struggled to do right by it.

 

Again? You are incredibly prejudiced, and don't see it. the equivalent of what you are saying would be for me to point out that Hitler was educated in a monastery- and used that education to create havoc and destruction on the world. Therefore people with religious instruction aren't strong enough to be able to act morally. Do you see how ridiculous your extrapolation is?

 

I don't believe his religious upbringing caused those decisions. I would never say that. So you should think carefully about what you say. Having religious instruction is no guarantee of morality.

 

Your religious tenets are largely based on non- religious concepts- if you study and learn religious history.

 

As for your class- I am doing no twisting of your words. I am repeating what you said- that the atheists in your class, which comprised a majority, could not discern right from wrong. You actually said " they couldn't even begin to determine right from wrong".

 

I can quote your own words back to you in more detail to show you what you wrote- but we are both adults- and I trust that you can glance up and read what you wrote. You are attempting to mitigate it now- but you said what you said.

 

As for the word supernatural- it is the accurate term for a deity. If it bothers you, I don't know what to say to that. It's the right word.

 

It doesn't bother me that you said atheists don't have a common moral education. People are not bound together by a lack of something. Not holding is not a hobby.

 

But that doesn't mean that atheists aren't raised by loving and caring and moral people who teach them right from wrong. You don't have to go to a church for that.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Decorative

[CantgetoveritNY]

She turned atheist- so she was raised with religious values? And still made her choices?

 

We were married in a church, at my spouse's request- because he is religious

. My vows were to love, honor and cherish, and to keep myself only unto him. which, as an atheist, I have been able to clearly comprehend and follow. It is a contract, an agreement, and a decision. I have never struggled to do right by it.

 

Again? You are incredibly prejudiced, and don't see it. the equivalent of what you are saying would be for me to point out that Hitler was educated in a monastery- and used that education to create havoc and destruction on the world. Therefore people with religious instruction aren't strong enough to be able to act morally. Do you see how ridiculous your extrapolation is?

 

I don't believe his religious upbringing caused those decisions. I would never say that. So you should think carefully about what you say. Having religious instruction is no guarantee of morality.

 

Your religious tenets are largely based on non- religious concepts- if you study and learn religious history.

 

As for your class- I am doing no twisting of your words. I am repeating what you said- that the atheists in your class, which comprised a majority, could not discern right from wrong. You actually said " they couldn't even begin to determine right from wrong".

 

I can quote your own words back to you in more detail to show you what you wrote- but we are both adults- and I trust that you can glance up and read what you wrote. You are attempting to mitigate it now- but you said what you said.

 

As for the word supernatural- it is the accurate term for a deity. If it bothers you, I don't know what to say to that. It's the right word.

 

It doesn't bother me that you said atheists don't have a common moral education. People are not bound together by a lack of something. Not holding is not a hobby.

 

But that doesn't mean that atheists aren't raised by loving and caring and moral people who teach them right from wrong.

 

 

It seems this thread is being hijacked.

[Decorative]

It seems this thread is being hijacked.

 

I apologize. I will not respond further to him. My mistake to engage him in the first place.

[Ninja'sHusband]

She turned atheist- so she was raised with religious values? And still made her choices?

Yup, after turning away.

 

We were married in a church, at my spouse's request- because he is religious

. My vows were to love, honor and cherish, and to keep myself only unto him. which, as an atheist, I have been able to clearly comprehend and follow. It is a contract, an agreement, and a decision. I have never struggled to do right by it.

Awesome! I'm happy for you!

 

Again? You are incredibly prejudiced, and don't see it. the equivalent of what you are saying would be for me to point out that Hitler was educated in a monastery- and used that education to create havoc and destruction on the world. Therefore people with religious instruction aren't strong enough to be able to act morally. Do you see how ridiculous your extrapolation is?

I have different beliefs from you, doesn't mean I'm going to be prejudiced against you any more than you will be against me for being religious. I think you have made a terrible number of assumptions about my meaning, reading only what you want to, etc.

 

Also it seems to me that you are saying that no atheist EVER would have been better off with religion. For me to say that my wife would have done better with a belief in God is just evil and wrong! That seems prejudiced toward atheists in the opposite way, like they are all perfectly good people never to be criticized. It seems like you are projecting the same kind of thoughts on me, pretending I'm saying the all religious people are good. They CERTAINLY are NOT! and I would never say that. What I said was that it's good to have a source. I'm betting you don't think that all atheists are good either. But why get so defensive? I wasn't even talking about you, you being a faithful wife.

 

I don't believe his religious upbringing caused those decisions. I would never say that. So you should think carefully about what you say.

I think there were a lot of factors for my wife(just noticed you meant your H), listed in the original post you objected to.

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/marriage-life-partnerships/infidelity/360669-there-really-fundamental-difference-2.html#post4434621

 

The others being: conflict avoidance, low self esteem, selfish, bad boundaries.

 

As for your H, of course not. Most religions discourage infidelity. The whole point of religion is to spread morality...otherwise it's completely useless.

 

Having religious instruction is no guarantee of morality.

AMEN!

Your religious tenets are largely based on non- religious concepts- if you study and learn religious history.

That's a discussion that could go on forever, religion is preeetttty old.

As for your class- I am doing no twisting of your words. I am repeating what you said- that the atheists in your class, which comprised a majority, could not discern right from wrong. You actually said " they couldn't even begin to determine right from wrong".

and yet you have removed the context once again.

I can quote your own words back to you in more detail to show you what you wrote- but we are both adults- and I trust that you can glance up and read what you wrote. You are attempting to mitigate it now- but you said what you said.

Yup, read the rest of it, not just the pieces that offend you. Then put the thoughts together and you might glean the meaning I had.

 

As for the word supernatural- it is the accurate term for a deity. If it bothers you, I don't know what to say to that. It's the right word.

Spiritual

 

It doesn't bother me that you said atheists don't have a common moral education. People are not bound together by a lack of something. Not holding is not a hobby.

Great!

 

But that doesn't mean that atheists aren't raised by loving and caring and moral people who teach them right from wrong. You don't have to go to a church for that.

Agreed!

 

Man, Decorative. I'm so sorry you interpreted my original statement as a personal attack =( I actually agree with a lot that you say. I think you have the wrong idea of what's in my head. I know what I think, you know what you think. I totally believe you will remain faithful to your H.

Edited December 7, 2012 by Ninja'sHusband

[Decorative]

Please don't bait me further.

 

I read carefully. I understand exactly what you are saying. There was zero misinterpretation of the atheists " couldn't determine right from wrong".

 

Please stop hijacking this thread. I understand your position. Your further clarification is not necessary. We are not going to see this the same way. I wish you well, but I do not wish to discuss and hijack this further.