Satanism: what i learned

[M30USA]

In continuation of my last post...

 

Remember the very FIRST encounter that Satan had with mankind. In movies, we know that each person's first scene is supposed to sum up and reveal the central attribute of that person. So what was Satan's first scene he the Bible? He walked up to Eve and said, "Did God really say..." And there you have it. Right from the start he challenged WHAT God said. He didn't say God wasn't real, nor did he try to physically destroy Eve. He simply tried to obfuscate or confuse what God told them, so that Eve started thinking...wait, hmm...what did God say? I'm not sure.

[ThaWholigan]

Step back and take a broad perspective. Obviously whatever Satan worship and Luciferianism actually ARE, they're never going to appear on the surface as evil, awful, horrific, murderous, atrocious, etc. Satan doesn't work like that. Paul said that Satan even masquerades as an angel of light. Therefore the people who follow him actually, in their hearts, believe they are doing the right (and even good) thing. This is why the Bible says that "all a man's ways seem right to him". Additionally we aren't to trust our own reasoning, but ONLY the reasoning of God's Word.

I learned that 10 years ago in Sunday School . Even as a former Christian the words never leave me......

[CarrieT]

Step back and take a broad perspective. Obviously whatever Satan worship and Luciferianism actually ARE, they're never going to appear on the surface as evil, awful, horrific, murderous, atrocious, etc. Satan doesn't work like that. Paul said that Satan even masquerades as an angel of light. Therefore the people who follow him actually, in their hearts, believe they are doing the right (and even good) thing. This is why the Bible says that "all a man's ways seem right to him". Additionally we aren't to trust our own reasoning, but ONLY the reasoning of God's Word.

I can understand you see this because you are looking at it through CHRISTIAN colored glasses.

 

I wish there were a way for non-Christians to wholly and adequately view non-Christian mythos without being the preconceived nothing that theirs is the ONLY view and way of the world.

 

Satan is a Christian concept and nothing else.

[M30USA]

I read a little bit of Eve's links. They mentioned Alisteir Crowley. Is anyone aware that he allegedly "summoned" a being or spirit? He even drew a picture of it. Hmm...looks just like something I talk about all the time on this forum:

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7EQVh1k3uOc/S7IZXoWveiI/AAAAAAAAAPw/ndgwrLs6jW4/s1600/lam.jpg

[CarrieT]

I read a little bit of Eve's links. They mentioned Alisteir Crowley. Is anyone aware that he allegedly "summoned" a being or spirit? He even drew a picture of it. Hmm...looks just like something I talk about all the time on this forum:

 

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_7EQVh1k3uOc/S7IZXoWveiI/AAAAAAAAAPw/ndgwrLs6jW4/s1600/lam.jpg

 

I am more than aware of this. The link you provided was given a name: Aiwass. I curated an exhibit of Crowley's paintings a little over a decade ago. I have been involved with his Order for more than twenty years.

 

Again, the links that Eve provided are a tip of the iceberg that can barely be indulged within pithy comments on a relationship site.

[M30USA]

I am more than aware of this. The link you provided was given a name: Aiwass. I curated an exhibit of Crowley's paintings a little over a decade ago. I have been involved with his Order for more than twenty years.

 

Again, the links that Eve provided are a tip of the iceberg that can barely be indulged within pithy comments on a relationship site.

 

I find it HIGHLY interesting that, just like Crowley, we have these so-called "channelers" today who allegedly contact UFOs/ETs that look identical to the drawing by Crowley. This once again supports my hypothesis that the UFO phenomenon is angelic/spiritual in nature, with the ability to have manifestation in the physical/material world; and that these beings can be either Satanic or godly, depending on what messages they convey. Based on the criteria of Paul: If they deny Christ was God in the flesh, then they are Satanic.

[M30USA]

If we really want to step back and take a broad perspective, and see overarching themes in what both "sides" are saying.

 

One of them wants to keep us subservient, obedient, dependent, childlike.

 

The other wants us to grow up and take responsibility.

 

Exactly. Couldn't agree anymore.

 

And he [Jesus] said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 18:3)

 

Dependence upon people is stupid. Dependence upon God is wise, since there is actually nothing else you CAN depend on.

[CarrieT]

Dependence upon God is wise, since there is actually nothing else you CAN depend on.

I would counter that there is nothing else you can depend upon but the SELF and there is no "god."

[M30USA]

I would counter that there is nothing else you can depend upon but the SELF and there is no "god."

 

Very well.

 

How will that fare when our bodies age and we lose our strength? Or when we have an addiction that we can't beat even with every ounce of our own effort?

[TheFinalWord]

Very well.

 

How will that fare when our bodies age and we lose our strength? Or when we have an addiction that we can't beat even with every ounce of our own effort?

 

I agree with that. I tried getting free of drugs in my own power, multiple times. It wasn't until I gave my life to the Lord that I was set free, instantly. Satanic philosophy has no power, only the ability to manipulate and deceive people into believing they are in control of their mind and lives.

 

Jesus explained it best. Satan is the father of lies.

 

"Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

 

Satanic philosophy does not offer power of freedom at all, only deception and ultimate demise. I say all this about satanism, b/c I was involved in the occult for a number of years. Lived the lifestyle, obsessed with death/black metal (deicide was my fav band) the whole 9 yards. It's false power, false reality, and a complete delusion. I would advise anyone involved in it to ask Christ into your heart, rebuke the lifestyle, trash any occult paraphernalia, music, etc. I thought I had freedom, but it wasn't until I gave my life to Christ that I knew what complete bondage satanism truly is.

 

"When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed what they had done. A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas. In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power."

[CarrieT]

Very well.

 

How will that fare when our bodies age and we lose our strength? Or when we have an addiction that we can't beat even with every ounce of our own effort?

With all due respect - this is about as germane to this thread as the demise of the Hostess Twinkie or the cost of gasoline.

 

I am confident in my beliefs - and in my ability handle old age or addiction or any other issue that arises in my life - without the existence of a deity.

 

"When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed what they had done. A number who had practiced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they calculated the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas. In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power."

Yeah - these were the same Christians who murdered Hypatia for teaching mathematics; i.e. SORCERY. Sheesh....

[skydiveaddict]

I agree with that. I tried getting free of drugs in my own power, multiple times. It wasn't until I gave my life to the Lord that I was set free, instantly.

 

But what about those who, despite having given their lives to the Lord are still not released from their addictions; or wars, or starvation or abuse or illness or senseless suffering or servitude...etc? What do I say to them?

 

What can I say to those people?

Edited November 18, 2012 by skydiveaddict

[TheFinalWord]

Yeah - these were the same Christians who murdered Hypatia for teaching mathematics; i.e. SORCERY. Sheesh....

 

This was in Ephesus in the first century and this act actually led to a mob of pagans wanting to seize the apostles.

 

About that time there arose a great disturbance about the Way. A silversmith named Demetrius, who made silver shrines of Artemis, brought in a lot of business for the craftsmen there. He called them together, along with the workers in related trades, and said: “You know, my friends, that we receive a good income from this business. And you see and hear how this fellow Paul has convinced and led astray large numbers of people here in Ephesus and in practically the whole province of Asia. He says that gods made by human hands are no gods at all. There is danger not only that our trade will lose its good name, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited; and the goddess herself, who is worshiped throughout the province of Asia and the world, will be robbed of her divine majesty.” When they heard this, they were furious and began shouting: “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!” Soon the whole city was in an uproar. The people seized Gaius and Aristarchus, Paul’s traveling companions from Macedonia, and all of them rushed into the theater together. Paul wanted to appear before the crowd, but the disciples would not let him. Even some of the officials of the province, friends of Paul, sent him a message begging him not to venture into the theater.

[TheFinalWord]

But what about those who, despite having given their lives to the Lord are still not released from their addictions; or wars, or starvation or abuse or illness or senseless suffering or servitude...etc? What do I say to them?

 

What can I say to those people?

 

Do you mean yourself or someone else?

 

This life is hard, for sure. When we come to Christ in sincerity, he gives us the security within, that no matter what He is with us

 

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.

 

We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.

[skydiveaddict]

Do you mean yourself or someone else?

 

Someone else. Specifically a large portion of humanity that, given their circumstances, must wonder if God even exists.

 

This life is hard, for sure. When we come to Christ in sincerity, he gives us the security within, that no matter what He is with us

 

Respectfully, that does not answer my question: Why does God allow horrible suffering for some, while others He does not?

[pie2]

In your response to M30's perception of Satan worshipers/Luciferianism:

 

I can understand you see this because you are looking at it through CHRISTIAN colored glasses....Satan is a Christian concept and nothing else.

 

How is the concept of Satan limited to Christians? Jewish believers believe in Satan, but don't follow Christ. Satan worshipers believe in Satan, and are anything but Christian. What did you mean by, "Satan is a Christian concept and nothing else"?

 

If you do in fact think that Satan is only a Christian concept, then how else then would anyone understand it but through "Christian colored glasses"?

 

I wish there were a way for non-Christians to wholly and adequately view non-Christian mythos without being the preconceived nothing that theirs is the ONLY view and way of the world.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I assume you meant you wish Christian believers could strip themselves of their own views and understand others' myths...? And that Christians think that their perspective is the only way to view the world?

 

I have met very few people (Christian or non-Christian) who think that their point of view is the only way to view the world. Everyone is exposed to different ideas and customs, even in the most remote parts of the world. But most people think that their way of thinking is a good way to think. It works for them, so of course they want to share what they have found to work with others.

 

In my experience, some from the ultra-liberal sector have almost a religious fevor related to "Open-minded Tolerance". But as soon as they meet anyone with firm beliefs about a certain lifestyle, some immediately become very intolerant towards that person. So, it's more of an "Open-minded Tolerance, as long as you think just like me".

 

And when you say you wish Christians could become unbiased, I think that you are asking something that is impossible to accomplish. No one can strip themselves of experiences, ideas, lifestyle, and become wholly unbiased, not even Thelemans.

[M30USA]

The post above me says it all.

 

Outtie.

[TheFinalWord]

Someone else. Specifically a large portion of humanity that, given their circumstances, must wonder if God even exists.

 

Respectfully, that does not answer my question: Why does God allow horrible suffering for some, while others He does not?

 

Oh okay, got ya. Well, those are very good questions.

 

This post was "Satanism: what I learned". Just wanted to share what I learned about satanism, having been involved in it for a few years. So I don't want to distract from the OP.

 

But that is a great question. My question is, how much reading are you prepared to do? haha

 

[rn0408]

Arguing about religion is pointless. People believe what they want to believe, and if they call you stupid for bashing your beliefs..then they are stupid. If you do that to others...then you are stupid. Only way I would bash somebodys views is there is rape, incest, or child rape involved.

[M30USA]

Arguing about religion is pointless. People believe what they want to believe, and if they call you stupid for bashing your beliefs..then they are stupid. If you do that to others...then you are stupid. Only way I would bash somebodys views is there is rape, incest, or child rape involved.

 

Yep. People believe what they want to believe. I think God intended it that way. In the end, he will give everyone what they want.

[Eve]

I can honestly say that this thread has made so many pieces of the puzzle fit into place.. things I would have never considered previously to be connected, even though I understood that the devil and demons are real.

 

A veil has been lifted.

 

Take care,

Eve x

[CarrieT]

How is the concept of Satan limited to Christians? Jewish believers believe in Satan, but don't follow Christ. Satan worshipers believe in Satan, and are anything but Christian. What did you mean by, "Satan is a Christian concept and nothing else"?

You are right - the concept of Satan is not limited to Christianity. But THIS THREAD is about Satanism and the concept of Satanism and as it exists today is based from LaVey's writings which is wholly and entirely based on an anti-Christian theology. In that regard, what was being discussed here (before this thread turned into the proselytization by those who "found Jesus"), was the genesis and philosophy of Satanism. Having experience with the group and ideology, I thought I could offer some insight.

 

 

And when you say you wish Christians could become unbiased, I think that you are asking something that is impossible to accomplish. No one can strip themselves of experiences, ideas, lifestyle, and become wholly unbiased, not even Thelemans.

Well, as a matter of point, we are Thelemites. Not Thelemans. But that is beside the point. I disagree to some extent. Of course no can strip themselves of experience, but they can open themselves to understanding others' beliefs. I believe that otherwise I would not be dating a Christian and my converted Christian partner (who used to be Jewish) wouldn't be bringing a devout occultist into his family. We are examples of how it is possible to accept without bias another person's beliefs.

 

Listen, I regret that I started debating the Christian ideology in this thread. I get riled when Christians start telling me that it is only by accepting Christ will I find peace in old age or be able to battle addiction. There are enough threads on this site about Christianity and I rarely engage in those for a reason. This thread is about Satanism and my only point - again - is that Satanism as most understand it is as a reflection of Christianity. I introduced the concept of Thelema because many, MANY Christians believe it to be an aspect of Satanism because it is an occult practice that involves some scary concepts like rituals, demons, and the writings of Aleister Crowley who labeled himself with some anti-Christian titles. But this occurred during a different time (before the turn of the last century). That is all.

 

I'm bowing out now.

[M30USA]

Satan is the "prince of this world". He is the god which mankind will worship if they follow their natural inclinations. It is Jehovah God who, while the Most High and true God, is the foreign God and unknown to the forefathers of Abraham and our natural inclinations.

[TheFinalWord]

Listen, I regret that I started debating the Christian ideology in this thread. I get riled when Christians start telling me that it is only by accepting Christ will I find peace in old age or be able to battle addiction. There are enough threads on this site about Christianity and I rarely engage in those for a reason. This thread is about Satanism and my only point - again - is that Satanism as most understand it is as a reflection of Christianity. I introduced the concept of Thelema because many, MANY Christians believe it to be an aspect of Satanism because it is an occult practice that involves some scary concepts like rituals, demons, and the writings of Aleister Crowley who labeled himself with some anti-Christian titles. But this occurred during a different time (before the turn of the last century). That is all.

 

I'm bowing out now.

 

Well I appreciate your insight. No problem to bring up Christian philosophy. I think their is ignorance on both sides. I welcome it b/c there are a lot of misconceptions about Christianity. It helps to see misinterpretations as opportunities to teach. That's what I try to do anyway. I'm sure you're feeling the same frustration Christians here have felt many times. We are often told that our beliefs are unscientific, irrational, crutch, etc. We watch as the bible is completely straw-manned over and over again. It gets frustrating, and I've lost my cool a few times. But yes, I agree you have to determine what is worth your energy. You can only deal with one person at a time, I have found. So, just pick the person that you think is giving you the most respect, or the person that you think is the most open-minded and focus on them. You can't defend your beliefs to everyone, unless you have unlimited time and energy. Plus you don't have to. It's like mercy said earlier, that you don't have to debate anyone. But as you've pointed out, it's hard to let your beliefs get mis-represented w/out saying anything.

 

Especially if you have a the teaching spirit. The Psalmist compared the passion Christ had for teaching to a fire that burned inside him. You can't really contain it. I think we are open to learning more about your beliefs (I am anyway), but it does take a lot of patience.

[TheFinalWord]

If everyone wants some entertainment, anyone remember this era of Christian talk radio?