The system, PUA and others

[verhrzn]

Fine, whatever. You guys spin your little webs and swear all women are the same, all women are apparently brainless machines who if you put in enough coins will dispense sex, who are unable to see through your BS tactics. You go ahead and manipulate girls into sleeping with/dating you, and convince yourselves you never could have succeeded without seizing power from the All Might Vagina Havers.

 

I'll be over here sleeping with guys who are the exact opposite of what PUA says men are supposed to be.

[ThaWholigan]

I've known guys who can hook up with quiet, nerdy types, obnoxious party girls, and everything in between. I admit I'm using "proof" in an informal sense throughout my posts. If you can't verify your points empirically, don't criticize me for being unable to verify mine in the same manner. All of us in this thread are speaking in anecdotes. Don't raise the standard of proof in the middle of the game.

 

Again, all your statements assume that men only start reading PUA for the same reason. Some can't get women at all. Some just want to attract more women, or more attractive women. Some guys might like Star Wars but don't really want a woman who is into Star Wars. The reason my statement isn't a contradiction is because "success" is defined by the individual. Additionally, there are certain actions that women will respond to positively, but that does not mean she will ultimately be attracted to the guy, or sleep with him, or date him. That a certain way of acting will get a good "response" from a woman is not qualitatively equivalent to that man achieving "success" with that woman, and no PUA (that anyone actually reads) has never guaranteed success for that very reason.

What do I say in every other thread? The same threads in which I'm called a White Knight?

 

All women are different and respond to different things as individuals. If I really didn't believe that, PUA would be useless because I would basically be a watered-down BS version of Vercetti .

 

To reiterate (I seem to be doing a lot of repeating because it isn't getting noticed it seems).....

 

A lot of PUA is indeed BS. You won't hear me disputing that at all. However, I personally would feel hypocritical to call all of it BS. Because as much as I actually don't use the majority of it, the material I read, programs I downloaded and watched actually did help me, if only little bits of it.

 

Bits I wouldn't have got from simple Psychology/social books, or other clinical books about dating that I read that didn't help me at all. They made me even lamer than before and I had less confidence as a result. Once I started to get the confidence to talk to women, I didn't need PUA anymore. It served it's purpose to me. I wasn't gonna get sucked into the BS, because I didn't want to. All I wanted was a few things, stop being a pussy talk to women, get comfortable escalating and flirting/bantering like a normal person. Because I wasn't normal.

 

And before anyone starts with that "awkward girls would have liked you", no they wouldn't - because they didn't at the time. And if they did, they ended up losing interest because no matter how smart, or intelligent they thought I was, no matter how interesting and kind and even handsome they thought I was - I was a complete f*cking idiot when it came to women. All kinds of women, from the awkward shy ones at the library in college, to the social butterflies, to the hood girls round the way. I failed with all of them.

[dasein]

I'd like to know what male poster here other than ThaWholigan who is "defending" PUA has never been in a committed relationship, or isn't in one right now?

 

I have to fess up then. I've never been in a committed relationship, I'm actually a virgin, 14, but just love to hear myself talk about things I've never experienced. I don't even know what women have under their clothes, could be a tail or some strange appendage for all I know. Could be a weird Kwato face thing like in Total Recall. My buddy told me they have an open wound under there that bleeds all the time, but that couldn't possibly be true. I hope it's Kwato kinda, it would be cool to talk to a squashed up psychic head living in someone else.

[joystickd]

Because I'm not a moron who thinks I'm going to give some vague advice that's going to guarantee him success with all, or even most, woman.

 

If he wants to ask me about a SPECIFIC situation with a SPECIFIC woman, I'll be happy to advise him. Effectively, too.

 

If women were actually so effective with advice then there would be no need for PUA. As i always say mom was wrong lol.

[dasein]

all women are apparently brainless machines who if you put in enough coins will dispense sex,

 

Well of course that's the end goal. We are working towards that, if those damn japanese would just get off their asses. Not quite there yet though.

[TheBigQuestion]

What do I say in every other thread? The same threads in which I'm called a White Knight?

 

All women are different and respond to different things as individuals. If I really didn't believe that, PUA would be useless because I would basically be a watered-down BS version of Vercetti .

 

To reiterate (I seem to be doing a lot of repeating because it isn't getting noticed it seems).....

 

A lot of PUA is indeed BS. You won't hear me disputing that at all. However, I personally would feel hypocritical to call all of it BS. Because as much as I actually don't use the majority of it, the material I read, programs I downloaded and watched actually did help me, if only little bits of it.

 

Bits I wouldn't have got from simple Psychology/social books, or other clinical books about dating that I read that didn't help me at all. They made me even lamer than before and I had less confidence as a result. Once I started to get the confidence to talk to women, I didn't need PUA anymore. It served it's purpose to me. I wasn't gonna get sucked into the BS, because I didn't want to. All I wanted was a few things, stop being a pussy talk to women, get comfortable escalating and flirting/bantering like a normal person. Because I wasn't normal.

 

And before anyone starts with that "awkward girls would have liked you", no they wouldn't - because they didn't at the time. And if they did, they ended up losing interest because no matter how smart, or intelligent they thought I was, no matter how interesting and kind and even handsome they thought I was - I was a complete f*cking idiot when it came to women. All kinds of women, from the awkward shy ones at the library in college, to the social butterflies, to the hood girls round the way. I failed with all of them.

 

The differences among women are what make them so fun (obviously).

 

I think it would be pretty ridiculous for someone on the internet thousands of miles away to tell you who would or wouldn't have liked you before or after PUA. YOU are the one living out your experiences, not them. So good on you for preempting that sort of nonsense.

[joystickd]

I see this why cant men date like women thing going on now

[ThaWholigan]

I'd like to know what male poster here other than ThaWholigan who is "defending" PUA has never been in a committed relationship, or isn't in one right now? Insinuating that it's only lonely, perpetually single men who have good things to say about PUA seems pretty inaccurate to me.

 

Furthermore, not every guy wants a committed relationship at every stage in his life, and there is nothing shameful or reprehensible about it. Some men who read PUA materials want relationships. Others just want to have sex. It tends to facilitate the initial attractions for both end goals. So what?

 

It's also telling how despite much of my own personal views that I have given out on this forum that go against MUCH of what PUA teaches, the mere fact that something so derided actually helped me become a more rounded person overall completely deletes all of that, and now I am apparently this:

 

You guys spin your little webs and swear all women are the same, all women are apparently brainless machines who if you put in enough coins will dispense sex, who are unable to see through your BS tactics. You go ahead and manipulate girls into sleeping with/dating you, and convince yourselves you never could have succeeded without seizing power from the All Might Vagina Havers.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not hurt, this is the internet. I also actually applaud Janesays for being the way she is, I actually think she seems like a very good woman.

 

I'm just confused: what exactly did they expect me to do? Was I to continue bumbling around until I was 30 with no relationship or sexual experience? Because, as much as I'm not depressive as a person and I could deal with a potential scenario like that, it still would have been weird and problematic. And it also would have been likely.

 

And to be accused or it be implied that I endorsed any of those things posted in the above post is not so much annoying as it is amusing, because it is the complete opposite of how I have conducted myself for perhaps my entire life.

 

I'm confident I will find a wonderful woman to be in a loving relationship with. I'm more confident now than I ever was that I will. I'm more comfortable being myself than I ever was, and continue to do so every day I get older. I don't credit PUA for all of it, but I credit PUA for helping me get off my ass and sort myself out to become attractive to whoever that woman will be. And I didn't have to adopt any silly behaviors associated with PUA to do it.

 

I do not understand why that part keeps being missed in favor of me being portrayed as a manipulator who sees women as hive-minded, because it's fairly obvious that I don't.

 

Also, it's not the first time my lack of relationship experience has been used against me on this forum either .

[verhrzn]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not hurt, this is the internet. I also actually applaud Janesays for being the way she is, I actually think she seems like a very good woman.

 

I'm just confused: what exactly did they expect me to do? Was I to continue bumbling around until I was 30 with no relationship or sexual experience? Because, as much as I'm not depressive as a person and I could deal with a potential scenario like that, it still would have been weird and problematic. And it also would have been likely.

 

And to be accused or it be implied that I endorsed any of those things posted in the above post is not so much annoying as it is amusing, because it is the complete opposite of how I have conducted myself for perhaps my entire life.

 

I'm confident I will find a wonderful woman to be in a loving relationship with. I'm more confident now than I ever was that I will. I'm more comfortable being myself than I ever was, and continue to do so every day I get older. I don't credit PUA for all of it, but I credit PUA for helping me get off my ass and sort myself out to become attractive to whoever that woman will be. And I didn't have to adopt any silly behaviors associated with PUA to do it.

 

I do not understand why that part keeps being missed in favor of me being portrayed as a manipulator who sees women as hive-minded, because it's fairly obvious that I don't.

 

Also, it's not the first time my lack of relationship experience has been used against me on this forum either .

 

You always tell me that aside from being a little more confident, I don't need anything else to attract guys. You tell me I'm enough, with my social awkwardness and my desire for debate and my fat stomach. I say I need plastic surgery for men to like me. You say I'm nuts, that men love a variety of things, that men love fat, dumpy women who have a tendency to argue with them over how inaccurate the God of War games are to mythology.

 

If I don't need plastic surgery, according to you.... then why do guys need PUA?

[ThaWholigan]

The differences among women are what make them so fun (obviously).

 

I think it would be pretty ridiculous for someone on the internet thousands of miles away to tell you who would or wouldn't have liked you before or after PUA. YOU are the one living out your experiences, not them. So good on you for preempting that sort of nonsense.

 

Absolutely.

 

I was already starting to become more comfortable around girls, but now I was able to be more of myself. I could make inside jokes that I made with my other friends, I could have deep conversations, I could even start to be more passionate and emotional around girls, something they only saw when I played piano. It was deeply liberating. I started to really know girls - not in a mangina kind of way, but on a level where I was able to really appreciate their individuality. Properly.

 

I was always very wordy, but my mum noted that I had severe trouble with verbal reasoning and blurted out things that had nothing to do with nothing . I got better as I got older, but getting Xuma's program really sorted that. I was able to have a completely coherent conversation. I was even able to articulate my advice to people better, because both men and women would come to me for advice about stuff. So that part didn't just help me with women!

[dasein]

And on that note, I'm off to manipulate my fiance with my feminine wiles into having sex with me. Having all the power is awesome!

 

If you will send me $29.95 I can teach you to get him to have sex with you without manipulating him into it. Or we can do a barter thing, I'll teach you that and you can teach me the super power (a good super power though). Deal?

[ThaWholigan]

You always tell me that aside from being a little more confident, I don't need anything else to attract guys. You tell me I'm enough, with my social awkwardness and my desire for debate and my fat stomach. I say I need plastic surgery for men to like me. You say I'm nuts, that men love a variety of things, that men love fat, dumpy women who have a tendency to argue with them over how inaccurate the God of War games are to mythology.

 

If I don't need plastic surgery, according to you.... then why do guys need PUA?

 

Well, you're not ugly or fat, so you don't need plastic surgery but that's another story.

 

If there was a woman PUA book about social awkwardness/arguing with guys about God Of War, I would recommend it to you if I thought it was good and would help you .

 

The reason why is because it seems that men have no idea how attraction works and constantly do things to f*ck it up (with the girls that like them in the first place, or similar scenarios). I never thought I would need something like PUA for anything. When I first read it, I was like "BS". That's why I believe men need something like PUA.

 

I think PUA could definitely be MUCH better than it is, but the alternative to me seems to be "just muddling around and getting lucky". A lot of guys simply do not get lucky. Look at Somedude & 49322! And not just them. I think they make their own problems to an extent but by that logic, they would have gotten lucky by now. They NEED something like PUA, in fact, they need something better.

 

I don't think all guys, or even most guys need PUA. But some guys do. I certainly did, if only for the impetus it gave me, as I don't really care about most of it. I don't want troll bars/clubs to bang so-called 9s and 10s until I'm 45.

 

I encourage you to find the confidence anywhere you can find it.

Edited November 9, 2012 by ThaWholigan

[verhrzn]

Well, you're not ugly or fat, so you don't need plastic surgery but that's another story.

 

If there was a woman PUA book about social awkwardness/arguing with guys about God Of War, I would recommend it to you if I thought it was good and would help you .

 

The reason why is because it seems that men have no idea how attraction works and constantly do things to f*ck it up (with the girls that like them in the first place, or similar scenarios). I never thought I would need something like PUA for anything. When I first read it, I was like "BS". That's why I believe men need something like PUA.

 

I think PUA could definitely be MUCH better than it is, but the alternative to me seems to be "just muddling around and getting lucky". A lot of guys simply do not get lucky. Look at Somedude & 49322! And not just them. I think they make their own problems to an extent but by that logic, they would have gotten lucky by now. They NEED something like PUA, in fact, they need something better.

 

I don't think all guys, or even most guys need PUA. But some guys do. I certainly did, if only for the impetus it gave me, as I don't really care about most of it. I don't want troll bars/clubs to bang so-called 9s and 10s until I'm 45.

 

I encourage you to find the confidence anywhere you can find it.

 

What you're missing is what I've been saying all along.

 

My lack of confidence comes from the idea that men all want the same thing (that thing that is not me. Do I really need to send the swimsuit picture again to prove my fatness?) That is EXACTLY the same mindset PUA espouses... that you have to be this thing to be attractive.

 

You tell me I need therapy, not dating help books. Why are those same guys any different?

 

I'm just saying.... you tell me I'm gonna get lucky one of these days. What's so different between me and those guys in your opinion?

[ThaWholigan]

What you're missing is what I've been saying all along.

 

My lack of confidence comes from the idea that men all want the same thing (that thing that is not me. Do I really need to send the swimsuit picture again to prove my fatness?) That is EXACTLY the same mindset PUA espouses... that you have to be this thing to be attractive.

 

I understand you. I know you think that a lot of PUA is geared towards "banging 9s and 10s". And you're not really wrong. I must admit that I only speak for myself with regards to what I glean from it. And I also know that there is good material out there too, but generally speaking, it is my own interpretation.

 

Having said that, not all programs are the same. The best programs are typically the ones that enable you to embrace the core person you already are. It's literally putting icing on a cake. That's about the best I could say. Again, I understand your point when you put it that way.

 

You tell me I need therapy, not dating help books. Why are those same guys any different?

 

I only suggested therapy because you keep saying nothing else works. You have to know something about me: I will say any old bullsh*t to help someone. Even if it's bullsh*t, if it helped them it did the job. Usually I know what I'm talking about but if someone is not heeding me, at that point I will say absolutely ANYTHING if I think it will help them. In fact, it's probably what I do with PUA. I managed to help myself, literally using some things that I now consider to be BS .

 

I'm just saying.... you tell me I'm gonna get lucky one of these days. What's so different between me and those guys in your opinion?

 

The difference is that admittedly I'm biased in that I believe those guys probably won't get so lucky. You are probably more attractive to men than they are to women IMO. Bias really.

 

I hope to be proven wrong.

[joystickd]

I always saw PUA as a start. From the perspective of a man dating and interacting with women in a way is like a dance. PUA is a start on the way to find that perfect balance to be a good dancer. I can understand some why women would feel a certain way about it because its so logical and lacks the emotion. Men are guided by logic in dating and in some men they are so logical they need it broken down like that so they can get their ass in gear.

[Sun Devil]

Has anyone actually disproven pua. I feel that I have nothing to lose by giving it a try. verhrzn, if pua does not work on women, then what does?

[Hawakai]

Has anyone actually disproven pua. I feel that I have nothing to lose by giving it a try. verhrzn, if pua does not work on women, then what does?

 

A fit body. Above average height. Social dominance. Social status. Wealth. Academical education. Your own house. A good car. A bad boy appearance/temperament.

 

Recently I observed a young couple. She was 6 feet tall, fit and good-looking and he was 4'11'' average weight, balding in his early 20's and he had an average face. He had an audi parked outside. You might want to look into that.

[Imajerk17]

There's no shame in not being in a relationship yet. Just because you can attract someone doesn't make the two of you right to be in a relationship with each other. The women should realize this as much as anyone. I'm sure some of you lovely ladies have Friend-Zoned some great guys who wanted to date you.

 

PUA doesn't make two people right for each other long-term if they weren't before. What PUA (or really, becoming a more attractive man) WILL help is when you DO meet someone who could be right for you. Now you have a better chance of attracting her. It actually might help you avoid settling with someone for the reason that you couldn't hope to attract someone else.

 

And speaking of relationships, the way Mainstream Society does it doesn't seem to be working either. Last I checked 50% of marriages end in divorce. And of the remaining 50%, how many of them are happy years later? Those of you in these happy partnerships may feel that you have truly found your lifetime partner and I hope you are right. But are you sure? I don't think many people get engaged or married thinking that they are ever not going to work.

 

ThaWholigan is only 24 too. What is his rush, or for that matter, any guy's rush? Many people here, even the more relationship-happy guys you speak of who look down at PUA, don't meet their lifetime partners until either of them are in their 30s or even older.

 

joystickd said it very well. Some Nice Guys who keep blowing it with every single girl in front of them really do need to be told "no more than 2 compliments a date" or "no more than one self-deprecating remark per conversation" or "smile a little less" or "talk to her over your shoulder when you first meet her" even though sticking to those rules all the time is ridiculous. Those rules are only meant to stop the bleeding so to speak. As I said before in a post on here, many PUAs get married to those rules and their way of looking at dating, and it hurts them. The key really is knowing when to break the rules.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Imajerk17

[ThaWholigan]

There's no shame in not being in a relationship yet. Just because you can attract someone doesn't make the two of you right to be in a relationship with each other. The women should realize this as much as anyone. I'm sure some of you lovely ladies have Friend-Zoned some great guys who wanted to date you.

 

PUA doesn't make two people right for each other long-term if they weren't before. What PUA (or really, becoming a more attractive man) WILL help is when you DO meet someone who could be right for you. Now you have a better chance of attracting her. It actually might help you avoid settling with someone for the reason that you couldn't hope to attract someone else.

 

And speaking of relationships, the way Mainstream Society does it doesn't seem to be working either. Last I checked 50% of marriages end in divorce. And of the remaining 50%, how many of them are happy years later? Those of you in these happy partnerships may feel that you have truly found your lifetime partner and I hope you are right. But are you sure? I don't think many people get engaged or married thinking that they are ever not going to work.

 

ThaWholigan is only 24 too. What is his rush, or for that matter, any guy's rush? Many people here, even the more relationship-happy guys you speak of who look down at PUA, don't meet their lifetime partners until either of them are in their 30s or even older.

 

joystickd said it very well. Some Nice Guys who keep blowing it with every single girl in front of them really do need to be told "no more than 2 compliments a date" or "no more than one self-deprecating remark per conversation" or "smile a little less" or "talk to her over your shoulder when you first meet her" even though sticking to those rules all the time is ridiculous. Those rules are only meant to stop the bleeding so to speak. As I said before in a post on here, many PUAs get married to those rules and their way of looking at dating, and it hurts them. The key really is knowing when to break the rules.

Just to add, I found out that the "number 1 PUA in the world" is married

[Imajerk17]

Hi V, some really good points.

 

Really like how you state numbers 1 and 2. That is similar to my experiences.

 

For me myself, I don't mind guys looking for dating advice. I have myself suggested Dr. Nerdlove, who dabbled in PUA himself back in the day. He and ThaWhalogian seem to have found similar paths... they gleamed a few things from PUA, and using those as a springboard, found their own way.

 

I myself read relationship articles and books, some out of anthropological curiosity and some because they might offer decent advice. I see absolutely nothing wrong with guys doing the same.

 

What rubs me VERY much the wrong way is that PUA is so focused on women. All right, I know that sounds weird. Stick with me. I have read thousands of dating articles geared towards women; online, in books, in magazines. The huge, overwhelming majority of them focus on the woman. A lot of them seem to treat "attracting the man" as beside the point. It's all about the woman's journey to being More.... It seems to have very little to do with attracting "men" and more to do with just being an attractive person (to men and women.)

 

I'll put it another way. A lot of the advice given in dating articles to women, could be used to attract friends of the same sex. The dating advice is all about the woman and how she is failing/missing being a healthy and balanced individual.

 

Now contrast that with the dating advice given by PUA (which still has the market cornered on dating advice to men.) I've read a lot of those books as well (though I have not taken any classes.) While the advice sometimes includes self-improvement, it's almost always about the woman. Female psychology, female behavior, what attracts women, how to cause attraction IN women, etc.

 

When reading PUA material, I ask myself if this same material could be used to attract male friends. The answer for most of the material is "No."

 

Why is that? Because PUA isn't teaching guys to be an attractive person, it's teaching them how to be an attractive "male." But the idea of how to be "male" is built on a beach of binary assumptions about sex. Men do THIS, women do THAT.

 

It turns women into a giant hive-mind. It confirms its subjects to narrow definitions of what it means to be a man. And the farther away from that definition, the more you are going to struggle.... and you are going to struggle because of the assumption that men must act in this specific way.

 

When you're an attractive person, you make it less about what other people like, and more about yourself. You don't need to worry about what "attracts" other people, because by focusing on how you can be healthy and self-loving, it will automatically attract people to you.

 

PUA is artificial, in that it deals with the OUTER behavior without really tackling the INTERNAL issues. PUA guys continue to be caught in gender binds. They continue to "work on their game," which is all about external behaviors (or internal motivations than manifest as external behaviors.)

 

I can sit in my house, alone in my living room, and work on "getting better at dating" all by myself, because I don't need anyone else to learn how to not be needy/how to develop interests/how to be comfortable with myself. Heck, a lot of female dating advice, I hardly ever need anyone around!

 

But with PUA, you have to be around other people to see if it's working. You need other people to try out techniques on, even things like "Inner Game."

 

I dislike PUA because its artificial, and IMO focuses on the wrong things... and by focusing on the wrong things, it's just going to leave guys even more frustrated. I don't think it's a coincidence that as PUA has risen in popularity, we have actually seen even MORE disenchanted guys struggling with dating.

 

There is Men's Dating Advice that is shallow and there is Men's Dating Advice that is a lot more holistic. There is Women's Dating Advice that is shallow and there is Women's Dating Advice that is more holistic.

 

Speaking of shallow Women's Dating Advice, I have thumbed through Cosmo a few times. But it's been quite a while though. Maybe they've changed since?

 

I definitely agree with you though on what I bolded. There are few things more repulsive than a guy whose sole focus is on getting girls, which is indeed how a lot of PUAs live. As far as the more shallow Men's Dating Advice, that probably is borne from the fact that there are a lot of Bad Boys who have "nothing" going for them (not even looks) and yet they still have women around them. So perhaps it came to be to find ways to attract women without having a job, looks, or even a life.

 

But as I mentioned before, the new advice is a lot more holistic. Develop your own life, how to win respect from other guys, and so on, stuff that a lot of Nice Guys have trouble with. And it makes sense. Many guys get into PUA and then when they realize that it isn't enough, they get into Self-Improvement, becoming a better man. In fact, the cutting-edge Gurus these days say emphatically that they are NOT PUAs, and one of their missions is now helping guys who were brainwashed by PUA.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Imajerk17

[Necris]

Women's dating advice is focused on improving the woman's personality and looking sexier while PUA is focused on reading women, understanding their psychology and seducing them and not so much in improving your own personality. The reason why they are different is because of the way the two genders interact, women normally do not approach men while a man has to always approach the woman (there are exceptions but they are very rare unless you are extremely charismatic or have the looks of a male model) so since the man is approaching he focuses on trying to seduce the woman he desires and out competing the other men who may be interested in the same woman so PUA guys read up on female psychology and games in hopes of getting an edge in the dating game. Women are more focused on looking good and/or developing a more attractive personality so men will actually try to approach them.