The system, PUA and others

[verhrzn]

PUA is about being able to meet more women and instructing men on how to not screw it up. The end goals for which the "tactics" are used is usually entirely up to the man who is reading and utilizing PUA. For many men, they have no shot at all of finding that real, honest, true, deep love that you're talking about because they continuously make mistakes in the initial phases of attraction with women. Bad posture, awkward body language, stuttering, boring conversation, a disheveled appearance, not having the balls to ask women out, not having the balls to escalate physically when the time is right (whenever that may be depending on the situation). These are mistakes that have been corrected by PUA for many, many men. Prior to PUA, there was very little dating advice that was available to men that wasn't of the same variety that you can get from Mom.

 

Again, your responses betray either an inability or refusal to accept the variety and breadth of literature and philosophies that fall under the "PUA" moniker, the men who read it, and the reasons for which they seek it out in the first place. You have your bias against it, and nothing that anyone says here is going to make you budge, no matter how well-reasoned and earnestly the viewpoint is presented.

 

But those aren't things are unattractive to WOMEN. Those are things that are unattractive to ANYONE.

 

Like I said, women's dating advice is all about improving yourself, making yourself more attractive to a general populace.... people find similar things attractive in job interviews, friendships, and relationships. it's all about focus on YOURSELF, being healthy and attractive in a way that feels true to you, because when you are attractive and healthy to yourself, you are attractive and healthy to other people.

 

PUA is all about what is attractive to WOMEN. Period. But women are not a hive-mind. Women don't unilaterally like the same thing. So trying to form some strategy just because of the plumbing between someone's legs is ALREADY assuming things about them.

 

Whereas, we're all human. And all humans are socially conditioned to be attracted to certain qualities.

 

What I'm saying is: PUA assumes women are an "other" and work differently than humans do. THAT is what I object to.

 

You haven't addressed any of the points I made in my earlier post. Yes, I am biased, but that bias comes from years of research, and my bias does not mean I am wrong.

[dasein]

But it's approaching the stranger based entirely on their gender. If they're a woman, act like this. If they're a man, act like this.

 

No, if it's a hetero man, they are already comfortable approaching men because there's no sexual component or fear of rejection. But yes, in a way, it is about approaching women as women, because that's the whole point, and what makes the world go round. Human mating and seeking sex is not a sinister, disreputable activity designed to take advantage of women. It's a healthy activity that the species requires.

[ThaWholigan]

PUA is about being able to meet more women and instructing men on how to not screw it up. The end goals for which the "tactics" are used is usually entirely up to the man who is reading and utilizing PUA. For many men, they have no shot at all of finding that real, honest, true, deep love that you're talking about because they continuously make mistakes in the initial phases of attraction with women. Bad posture, awkward body language, stuttering, boring conversation, a disheveled appearance, not having the balls to ask women out, not having the balls to escalate physically when the time is right (whenever that may be depending on the situation). These are mistakes that have been corrected by PUA for many, many men. Prior to PUA, there was very little dating advice that was available to men that wasn't of the same variety that you can get from Mom.

 

The bold is PRECISELY what I'm talking about. This is the stuff that was preventing me from being able to be at my best, rather than attempting to be something else, or manipulate people. It was preventing me from meeting a girl who actually liked me. It gave me the impetus to build my confidence.

 

Placebo effect?? Possibly. But I fared much better at being attractive to a wider array of women (not just in the clubs ) than before, where I was just an interesting guy who could play a piano, but would never get a GF.

 

Also the underline is a great point. I was lucky that my mum didn't give me bad dating advice. She told me to be vigilant, be confident, don't be a doormat, and be comfortable with myself (as opposed to be nice, be a gentleman and be yourself, because I was already a gentleman by default).

 

Other guys aren't so lucky when it comes to advice from their mum .

[verhrzn]

This assumes that all of PUA is taught like Mystery Method. As I have gone over in this thread, not all PUA is like that, and some of the stuff that is actually good does get lumped in with the PUA label and becomes synonymous with Mystery and other stuff.

 

It also assumes that it targets the same women - which I won't lie, a lot of it does. I started to realize this when I downloaded Gamblers program. I suspect Gambler does well because he's actually a very good looking guy (google him). Nonetheless, the touching cues were still good info, if a little telegraphed and mechanical.

 

I digress - I think that there is truth to the claim that PUA does brainwash you into thinking that women are all into certain things, almost the same way that guys are brainwashed into thinking women only go for looks or some other thing that they don't have therefore fail. However, such is the broad nature of men's dating advice that there is much better material out there that doesn't attempt to mold you into another person, but more to discover yourself, or even create yourself.

 

Perhaps I am lucky. I don't know.

 

Fine, substitute Mystery for some other method.

 

The point still is it assumes women all like the same thing. Like touching. I HATE strangers touching me. Some women find it unbelievably creepy. So, that PUA style won't work on those women.... but the way PUA presents it is, This works for ALL women (except the freaks.)

 

Do you see the distinction? Yes, PUA helps guys "create" themselves... but it creates them in a way that is attractive to "women". The type of woman that is completely depends on the method... but it's still claiming One Size Fits All.

 

I have yet to come across a PUA manual that suggested men cultivate hobbies in things they were passionate about that women culturally don't find attractive. Where's the PUA manual that says," Men, talk about Star Wars all the time! If you love it, indulge yourself in it!"

 

Why? Because Star Wars/geeky things are not known to attract "women."

 

And yet, I know plenty of women who would be all over a guy who was passionate about Star Wars.

 

It's one thing to seek to improve yourself. It's another to seek to improve yourself because of what others tell you is attractive. Even WEIRDER to improve yourself based on what other men are telling you women like.

 

I am all for more dating advice for men. Let's not conflate men's dating advice = PUA. Yes, some of it has decent tips.... but let's try to encourage taking those tips OUT of an overall environment/mindset that is damaging and derogatory to women. (By this, I mean assuming we all like the same thing and respond in the same way to things.)

[dasein]

IMO, it's bordering on purposeful fallacy to keep "confusing" the difference between exercising the human drive to have sex, and having a happy, fulfilling relationship. The two activities may be linked in many ways and overlap, but drawing conclusions about someone's ability to find love and life happiness based on how they go about approaching the opposite sex is puerile, and implies completely unfounded value and character judgments.

[TheBigQuestion]

PUA is all about what is attractive to WOMEN. Period. But women are not a hive-mind. Women don't unilaterally like the same thing. So trying to form some strategy just because of the plumbing between someone's legs is ALREADY assuming things about them.

 

Whereas, we're all human. And all humans are socially conditioned to be attracted to certain qualities.

 

What I'm saying is: PUA assumes women are an "other" and work differently than humans do. THAT is what I object to.

 

You haven't addressed any of the points I made in my earlier post. Yes, I am biased, but that bias comes from years of research, and my bias does not mean I am wrong.

 

You're right that women do not have a "hive" mind, but generalizations work for a reason. You're also neglecting the fact that both "PUAs" and guys with natural "game" can and do attract women from all social demographics (NOT most or every woman from all demographics, mind you). If a guy who knows what he is doing is trying to attract the bookworm-ish cutie at Barnes and Noble, he's not going to start talking to her in the same way he would if she was dressed to the nines at a high-end night club.

 

Furthermore, there has never been anything in PUA that actually tries to say ALL women like this, this, and that. PUA lays out a few general attractive qualities of men that a majority of women are more or less proven to respond to. It is NOT ignorant of nuance or that women are in fact individuals. Keep presenting that false notion out all you want, all it does is betray that you don't or won't understand what the whole thing is about. No PUA has ever guaranteed success with "most" or "all" women.

 

Also, many PUA writings emphasize the need for self-improvement both for its own sake and for being more attractive to women. I'm not sure what leads you to think otherwise. Having good friends, a strong family, a good work ethic, etc., are all things that have been discussed in PUA material I've come across.

 

And I was addressing Janesays with my post, not you, so that's why I didn't address your other points. What you've said is mostly repetition anyway, and there are posts I wrote that answer a lot of what you said a few pages back which you actually never responded to.

[joystickd]

I have defended my reasons for reading some PUA against the ideology that anyone who uses/reads it is a manipulative creep and or is somehow doing it wrong. I'm not even out for the PUA lifestyle, I want a relationship!! I just needed to get better at talking to women.

 

Alright.....

 

What is your counter advice? Forgetting PUA, let's just put that down. I'll forget any PUA advice I ever read in my entire life for now. What is the better way forward for me? How better will I find a woman who likes me that is better than anything I've read in PUA?

 

I'm honestly curious, because if I'm really this manipulative creepy PUA person (which I'm not), then show me where to go.

 

None of the antiPUA women have answered this

[Janesays]

This is pointless. Every time a woman here makes a well reasoned point, it is simply met with one of two responses:

 

"You just don't GET it!"

 

"But it helped me!"

 

Vague, useless, non points.

 

Points made, I might add, by SINGLE men. I guess I'd put more weight on this nonsense if the men speaking were all happily married directly because of PUA. But I have never met a man who can say PUA was what got him the love of his life. And, as I said before, one of the writers of one of the more well known PUA books is a good friend of mine.

[verhrzn]

You're right that women do not have a "hive" mind, but generalizations work for a reason. You're also neglecting the fact that both "PUAs" and guys with natural "game" can and do attract women from all social demographics (NOT most or every woman from all demographics, mind you). If a guy who knows what he is doing is trying to attract the bookworm-ish cutie at Barnes and Noble, he's not going to start talking to her in the same way he would if she was dressed to the nines at a high-end night club.

 

You have no way of verifying that. You don't know that PUAs OR guys with natural game "can and do attract women from all social demographics."

 

Right here in this thread, several women have said they don't like EITHER. They don't like guys with "natural game" and they don't like PUAs. I don't. Janesays don't. And we're nothing alike.

 

What evidence do you have that PUA/"game" techniques work on different types of women?

 

Furthermore, there has never been anything in PUA that actually tries to say ALL women like this, this, and that. PUA lays out a few general attractive qualities of men that a majority of women are more or less proven to respond to. It is NOT ignorant of nuance or that women are in fact individuals. Keep presenting that false notion out all you want, all it does is betray that you don't or won't understand what the whole thing is about. No PUA has ever guaranteed success with "most" or "all" women.

 

Again, let's see proof. Lots of different types of men were mating for thousands of years without the need of PUA. Lots of different types of women loved lots of different types of men.

 

Look at what I highlighted. It directly contradicts what you claim. You say in the very same paragraph "PUA has not guranteed success with most or all women" and then claims it teaches "qualities that the majority of women are more or less proven to respond to."

 

Proven by whom? A scientific study? According to reality, all types of men that supposedly don't have "alpha" qualities found women. So, what, they got lucky? Had "natural game"? These terms start to look meaningless... if all of these guys have "natural game," then what happened in the last two or three generations that guys now have to be taught it?

 

 

Also, many PUA writings emphasize the need for self-improvement both for its own sake and for being more attractive to women. I'm not sure what leads you to think otherwise. Having good friends, a strong family, a good work ethic, etc., are all things that have been discussed in PUA material I've come across.

 

But being attractive to women should be beside the point. If you're improving to "get" something, then you are not improving for yourself, you are improving based on someone else's criteria.

 

Like I said, point me to a PUA manual that says "improve yourself by focusing on interests that are supposedly repulsive to women" and then maybe I'll buy the self-improvement angle.

[ThaWholigan]

You're right that women do not have a "hive" mind, but generalizations work for a reason. You're also neglecting the fact that both "PUAs" and guys with natural "game" can and do attract women from all social demographics (NOT most or every woman from all demographics, mind you). If a guy who knows what he is doing is trying to attract the bookworm-ish cutie at Barnes and Noble, he's not going to start talking to her in the same way he would if she was dressed to the nines at a high-end night club.

 

Furthermore, there has never been anything in PUA that actually tries to say ALL women like this, this, and that. PUA lays out a few general attractive qualities of men that a majority of women are more or less proven to respond to. It is NOT ignorant of nuance or that women are in fact individuals. Keep presenting that false notion out all you want, all it does is betray that you don't or won't understand what the whole thing is about. No PUA has ever guaranteed success with "most" or "all" women.

 

Also, many PUA writings emphasize the need for self-improvement both for its own sake and for being more attractive to women. I'm not sure what leads you to think otherwise. Having good friends, a strong family, a good work ethic, etc., are all things that have been discussed in PUA material I've come across.

 

And I was addressing Janesays with my post, not you, so that's why I didn't address your other points. What you've said is mostly repetition anyway, and there are posts I wrote that answer a lot of what you said a few pages back which you actually never responded to.

The problem is that the PUA material that gets the most coverage both in the media and on the internet, is the bullsh*t stuff that got played out almost as soon as it came out, which is annoying.

 

Nobody ever talks about books like Secret of the Alpha Male, or programs like Ultimate Inner Game, or even Alpha Man Conversation and Persuasion. Nobody talks about Bobby Rio's Conversational program. Or Rob Brinded's body language program. I haven't even heard anyone mention Brad P's fashion Bible before . "Without Embarrassment"? "GuyGetsGirl"?

[verhrzn]

This is pointless. Every time a woman here makes a well reasoned point, it is simply met with one of two responses:

 

"You just don't GET it!"

 

"But it helped me!"

 

Vague, useless, non points.

 

Points made, I might add, by SINGLE men. I guess I'd put more weight on this nonsense if the men speaking were all happily married directly because of PUA. But I have never met a man who can say PUA was what got him the love of his life. And, as I said before, one of the writers of one of the more well known PUA books is a good friend of mine.

 

That was my point to.

 

I am sorry to give you pain, Tha, but.... you say PUA has helped you, and yet you're still single, without a substantial relationship under your belt.

 

PUA may help a small minority of men get relationships, but it seems for the vast number of guys, it's just snake oil, because they do it for months/years and still come away empty-handed (and bitter for their enforced belief that women only prefer Alphas.)

[dasein]

None of the antiPUA women have answered this

 

You (and wholigan) just cracked the whole underlying nut. Certain women react strongly and negatively to PUA because they feel their own power threatened by it. The alternative to PUA is "listen to what WE say we want, do what WE want you to do." Then offer nothing but contradictory, insincere platitudes that are worthless to all but THEM and THEIR agendas.

 

If we figure out "what works" with women, then we are one step closer to mastering our sexual desires and becoming less a thrall to the female sexual power. They are deathly afraid we will figure them out, despite that not being the goal or even possible, see them without their makeup so to speak, and feel that they are "losing" something, the balance of power will shift, despite the fact that the resulting true equality will be a big "win" for everyone.

 

Many women are absolutely terrified of that kind of equal playing field, may not even realize it themselves, it takes place on a very innate, instinctual level, which explains why their responses are so repetitive, kneejerk, instinctual and visceral in nature in these threads.

[TheBigQuestion]

This is pointless. Every time a woman here makes a well reasoned point, it is simply met with one of two responses:

 

"You just don't GET it!"

 

"But it helped me!"

 

Vague, useless, non points.

 

Points made, I might add, by SINGLE men. I guess I'd put more weight on this nonsense if the men speaking were all happily married directly because of PUA. But I have never met a man who can say PUA was what got him the love of his life. And, as I said before, one of the writers of one of the more well known PUA books is a good friend of mine.

 

I'm not single. I haven't been for over two years. PUA might have had an impact on obtaining my relationship or might not have. I have no idea because I never consciously implemented much of it in my life, but have read enough that it might have subconsciously influenced my behavior.

 

I understand that one of your good friends wrote a well known PUA manual. I accept that you think PUA is creepy, and I do think that your points are well reasoned, to a certain extent. I say "to a certain extent" because your points are all based on a very limited and superficial caricature of what PUA is and the guys who read it and follow it.

 

Your posts make sense and are internally consistent. You're just not working with the same level of knowledge on the subject that the men who are to a certain degree or another supporting PUA in this thread. We've read it, we know what it encompasses, we know that a lot of it is useless tripe, but we also recognize its upsides.

[Janesays]

None of the antiPUA women have answered this

 

Because I'm not a moron who thinks I'm going to give some vague advice that's going to guarantee him success with all, or even most, woman.

 

If he wants to ask me about a SPECIFIC situation with a SPECIFIC woman, I'll be happy to advise him. Effectively, too.

[ThaWholigan]

This is pointless. Every time a woman here makes a well reasoned point, it is simply met with one of two responses:

 

"You just don't GET it!"

 

"But it helped me!"

 

Vague, useless, non points.

 

Points made, I might add, by SINGLE men. I guess I'd put more weight on this nonsense if the men speaking were all happily married directly because of PUA. But I have never met a man who can say PUA was what got him the love of his life. And, as I said before, one of the writers of one of the more well known PUA books is a good friend of mine.

Oh, I get your points, believe me. I haven't even dismissed them. I'm just trying to make it known that I am using it positively and have discarded any negative information that has been seen. So in effect, it has been positive for me, and I do not see women as hive minded or anything like that. I am perfectly able to be myself entirely with women.

 

I just don't think it's fair that you guys are assuming that we're somehow being bad or something, because we're not. I'm certainly not.

[Janesays]

You (and wholigan) just cracked the whole underlying nut. Certain women react strongly and negatively to PUA because they feel their own power threatened by it....blah, blah, blah

 

Do you realize how weird and mental this post sounds? Right now, women have all the POWER. If men get POWER, we'll be master's of our SEXUAL DESTINY. That scares women because they like to use POWER to keep me ENSLAVED to them and their wiles. But we shall overcome! We SHALL OVERCOME!

 

You sound like a head case. Relationships, REAL RELATIONSHIPS, between two loving adults have nothing to do with power. If every time you interact with a woman, it becomes in your head some weirdo power struggle, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.

 

People are people. MOST of us aren't sociopaths out to control everyone!

[dasein]

If he wants to ask me about a SPECIFIC situation with a SPECIFIC woman, I'll be happy to advise him. Effectively, too.

 

You just invalidated the entire relationship book and magazine industry women spend millions of dollars on.

 

Or rather, I am a man who has trouble approaching women. I see an attractive woman across the room whom I don't know but would like to meet. Given these facts, and only these facts, what should I do?

 

Advise please, make the advice specific and effective.

[ThaWholigan]

That was my point to.

 

I am sorry to give you pain, Tha, but.... you say PUA has helped you, and yet you're still single, without a substantial relationship under your belt.

 

It's not painful at all, I'm not fragile .

 

Dare I say, I had all the other stuff down. I can connect with women and be myself and be emotional and all that stuff. That hasn't been a problem since college. What was a problem, was not screwing up with the women who liked me, who I also liked. I personally think the only reason why I don't have a substantial relationship under my belt is because I didn't discover PUA sooner. I'd have been much further along than I am now. I'd have still discarded most of it like I already have too

 

Also, consider that how ever far along I come across online, I am still autistic, and I have still had difficulties successfully dealing with it over the years. Just because I'm better at dealing with it now, doesn't delete the massive problems that came with it before.

 

PUA may help a small minority of men get relationships, but it seems for the vast number of guys, it's just snake oil, because they do it for months/years and still come away empty-handed (and bitter for their enforced belief that women only prefer Alphas.)

 

I keep repeating myself here, but a lot of PUA is BS. As much as I have defended my use of it, I've been very honest in pointing out that I don't actually agree with a lot of it. However, I cannot completely denigrate something that helped me. It would be like Bruce Lee completely turning his back on Wing Chun after creating Jeet Kune Do.

 

Granted PUA isn't an intergral part of my character. I'm not a PUA. I don't idealize Mystery, I don't sarge, I don't do most of the stuff that PUAs do. All I learned how to do from PUA was this:

 

1) Stop being a pussy and approach women

2) Learn how to be receptive to women who approach me

3) Learn how to actually bridge a conversation successfully

4) Learn how to escalate with a woman who is attracted to me and wants me to escalate.

 

I also read books on sex too, and how to do that effectively. You know what? I got the best dating advice from those books than I did from PUA. Because it reminded me that connecting emotionally with a woman as a human being was still wholly important - not that I actually needed reminding, but it was good to know that I wasn't wrong in the first place.

[TheBigQuestion]

You have no way of verifying that. You don't know that PUAs OR guys with natural game "can and do attract women from all social demographics."

 

Right here in this thread, several women have said they don't like EITHER. They don't like guys with "natural game" and they don't like PUAs. I don't. Janesays don't. And we're nothing alike.

 

What evidence do you have that PUA/"game" techniques work on different types of women?

 

 

 

Again, let's see proof. Lots of different types of men were mating for thousands of years without the need of PUA. Lots of different types of women loved lots of different types of men.

 

Look at what I highlighted. It directly contradicts what you claim. You say in the very same paragraph "PUA has not guranteed success with most or all women" and then claims it teaches "qualities that the majority of women are more or less proven to respond to."

 

Proven by whom? A scientific study? According to reality, all types of men that supposedly don't have "alpha" qualities found women. So, what, they got lucky? Had "natural game"? These terms start to look meaningless... if all of these guys have "natural game," then what happened in the last two or three generations that guys now have to be taught it?

 

 

 

 

But being attractive to women should be beside the point. If you're improving to "get" something, then you are not improving for yourself, you are improving based on someone else's criteria.

 

Like I said, point me to a PUA manual that says "improve yourself by focusing on interests that are supposedly repulsive to women" and then maybe I'll buy the self-improvement angle.

 

I've known guys who can hook up with quiet, nerdy types, obnoxious party girls, and everything in between. I admit I'm using "proof" in an informal sense throughout my posts. If you can't verify your points empirically, don't criticize me for being unable to verify mine in the same manner. All of us in this thread are speaking in anecdotes. Don't raise the standard of proof in the middle of the game.

 

Again, all your statements assume that men only start reading PUA for the same reason. Some can't get women at all. Some just want to attract more women, or more attractive women. Some guys might like Star Wars but don't really want a woman who is into Star Wars. The reason my statement isn't a contradiction is because "success" is defined by the individual. Additionally, there are certain actions that women will respond to positively, but that does not mean she will ultimately be attracted to the guy, or sleep with him, or date him. That a certain way of acting will get a good "response" from a woman is not qualitatively equivalent to that man achieving "success" with that woman, and no PUA (that anyone actually reads) has never guaranteed success for that very reason.

[Janesays]

You just invalidated the entire relationship book and magazine industry women spend millions of dollars on.

 

Yep, I sure did because it's all nonsense.

 

Millions of dollars are also spent on the weight loss industry. Yet people are still fat.

 

Just because people spend money on it, doesn't mean it works. In fact, the purpose of that stuff is for the creator to MAKE MONEY. They need to SELL IT. But, before they can sell, they have to first convince you that there is something wrong with you. Because if you were perfect, why would you spend your hard earned money on that trash?

 

Hey, maybe if you give me $29.95, I'll tell you how to have super powers since that is what you seem to be so obsessed with.

[dasein]

Do you realize how weird and mental this post sounds?

 

Do you realize how childish and most importantly ineffective that kind of shaming opener is?

 

Right now, women have all the POWER. If men get POWER, we'll be master's of our SEXUAL DESTINY. That scares women because they like to use POWER to keep me ENSLAVED to them and their wiles. But we shall overcome! We SHALL OVERCOME!

 

By inaccurately paraphrasing what I actually posted, you prove my point. See the reaction guys? Visceral, instinctive, kneejerk? when I distill the situation down to the raw?

 

You sound like a head case.

 

More reactive shaming, keep making my point.

 

Relationships, REAL RELATIONSHIPS, between two loving adults have nothing to do with power.

 

You just keep on believing that.

 

If every time you interact with a woman, it becomes in your head some weirdo power struggle, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG.

 

A shy, awkward man is across the room from a woman who is attractive, well dressed, and already been approached by ten men that night. Who has the power? Power isn't a dirty word, and I didn't say anything about any "struggle."

[ThaWholigan]

Yep, I sure did because it's all nonsense.

 

Millions of dollars are also spent on the weight loss industry. Yet people are still fat.

 

Just because people spend money on it, doesn't mean it works. In fact, the purpose of that stuff is for the creator to MAKE MONEY. They need to SELL IT. But, before they can sell, they have to first convince you that there is something wrong with you. Because if you were perfect, why would you spend your hard earned money on that trash?

 

Hey, maybe if you give me $29.95, I'll tell you how to have super powers since that is what you seem to be so obsessed with.

Why buy it when I can download it for free?

[dasein]

Hey, maybe if you give me $29.95, I'll tell you how to have super powers since that is what you seem to be so obsessed with.

 

That would be worth the money, no doubt. Where do I send the check? Can I pick a super power? If so will take teleportation. If I can't pick, don't stick me with some lame power like rosy smelling farts.

[TheBigQuestion]

I'd like to know what male poster here other than ThaWholigan who is "defending" PUA has never been in a committed relationship, or isn't in one right now? Insinuating that it's only lonely, perpetually single men who have good things to say about PUA seems pretty inaccurate to me.

 

Furthermore, not every guy wants a committed relationship at every stage in his life, and there is nothing shameful or reprehensible about it. Some men who read PUA materials want relationships. Others just want to have sex. It tends to facilitate the initial attractions for both end goals. So what?

[Janesays]

You just keep on believing that.

 

I'll do more than that. I'll keep on LIVING it.

 

And on that note, I'm off to manipulate my fiance with my feminine wiles into having sex with me. Having all the power is awesome!