The system, PUA and others

[Janesays]

 

David DeAngelo (Eben Pagan) is married.

 

If happily, he counts. But those odds are pretty freaking low, if you ask me. Then again, I've never been much of a gambler.

[dasein]

man who preaches PUA

 

It's not a religion, not a cult, not an "ism" with some particular doctrine. It is a broad, large, diverse business that is in essence no different than the million/billion dollar relationship advice book industry women spend so much money on.

 

The sentiment "PUA is bad," is exactly equivalent to the statement "relationship and self help books are bad," total nonstarter that makes no sense at all.

 

This thread isn't about happily ever after relationship goals. There are lots of those threads, I post in many of them. No more response from me to your derail attempts.

[verhrzn]

I think Imajerk is right, I don't think women will get it really .

 

This is why so many guys I know say not to ask women for dating advice. I still do ask them, and a lot of women get offended when they hear men say not to ask women, but I understand why men say it.

 

Maybe they're offended because, like me, they prefer their men a little awkward, a little raw and honest. I hate the smoothed over veneer PUA seem to have given nerd men; with their "skills" come an inflated sense of self, and they ignore girls who would have been perfectly happy and accepting of them the way they were.

 

I think of the guy i liked two summers ago.... the one who ended up in porn. I liked him quite a lot, until he started pulling what you all identified as player moves. Trying to make me jealous, negging me, ignoring me and flirting with other girls. My interest in him plummeted. If he'd just been himself, he wouldn't have needed the games.

 

I don't need games to be attracted to a guy. But I do need honesty. I'd rather a guy fumble and murmur his way through a conversation with me, then give me a back-handed compliment. I'll give the former guy ample chances. I'll flee from the latter one.

[VeveCakes]

Imagine a lounge bar. A woman is sitting on a stool there having a cocktail, maybe thinking she might like to meet an interesting guy. Well good for her because 8 guys do in fact approach her, all decent looking and polite, 4 say "Hey gorgeous!" or similar, the other 4 say "Hi I'm XYZ. Can I buy you a drink?" She talks to all of them in a perfunctory way as they ask her questions about where she works, what she likes, but her general feeling is -YAWN- WHY DON'T ANY INTERESTING FUN GUYS EVER APPROACH ME? WHERE ARE ALL THE GOOD ONES? (ever heard that one here or elsewhere? ever thought it?)

 

Then number 9 walks up, and says "Your hair color is great, do you dye it yourself?" Cognitive dissonance ensues, "He made a compliment I never or rarely hear about my hair??, but kind of an insult, what does he mean, is he serious, teasing me in a flirty way, mocking?" and in that question mark that takes place in under one second, in that wee bit of insecurity he engendered, that guy has differentiated himself. He has caused her to ask herself a question. That question mark, provided she finds him reasonably physically attractive, is the foundation on which attraction is built, because she is now focused on him and what he is saying because it was different and a little puzzling. The stage is set, but it's just a stage, not the goal.

 

She says grinning, "what the hell are you saying?" starting to get ready to bow up and throw some tude at him then brush him off. He follows up with a warm smile, "Aww c'mon, a woman like you couldn't possibly be that insecure." More cognitive dissonance, more puzzle. "Did he just insult me again? ALL THE REST BOW DOWN AND SUPPLICATE LIKE DOGS AT THIS POINT, WHY DOESN'T HE? Call me insecure? But he did compliment me also. WTH is this guy going to say next?"

 

The point is that particular technique is just an opener, the equivalent of the guy spinning the sign out on the highway, an ad. It's not supposed be a hypno ray that makes her think "I... MUST... SEX... THIS... MAN!" quite the opposite. He has demonstrated high social value by engaging her brain in a way she hasn't experienced, while at the same time, for himself, knocking off any residual bigheadedness due to being recently approached by 8 other guys.

 

This is just an example of how engendering a little insecurity can be an effective ice breaker. Now women may retort, "Well I've heard that and it didn't work on me." Fair enough, but that's back to hypno ray thinking, no one is trying to fool or manipulate you, just pique your interest and break through noise. It most certainly DOES work generally, as I have experienced dozens of times in person. In fact, every single time I have used this approach on a woman, I have ended up making out with her fairly soon after. Every single time. Not because I tricked her, but because she wanted to meet an interesting guy whom she feels interested enough in to kiss.

 

 

I don't find that comment would make someone feel insecure, or angry?

 

I also would roll my eyes at the cheesy " a woman like you wouldn't be that insecure"..... that being said I know girls who would totally just enjoy this attention.

 

You made out with all these girls... how attractive are you and how attractive were they?

 

Girls will get excited over a hot guy most of the time no matter what he says, and girls who are more desperate will also go for anyone who chats with them. I'm speaking from observation and years of bar hopping, partying and dating with single women.

[ThaWholigan]

If happily, he counts. But those odds are pretty freaking low, if you ask me. Then again, I've never been much of a gambler.

As far as I know he is happily. AFC Adam is also happily married if I recall. Others like Carlos Xuma has had long term GFs.

 

PUA is broad. There's a lot of BS in PUA. I acknowledged that at great length in my previous thread. However, for all the October Man stuff that is pushed towards the customers, there is some good solid stuff that is simply aimed at men who struggle to actually be able to go up to a woman and talk to her. To be interesting enough and attractive enough to be considered.

 

I think it should be reiterated again: Sometimes it isn't enough to "be yourself". More often than not, awkward does not get you the girl.

[VeveCakes]

Just adding.... wondering how much your success has to do with yours and their attractiveness.

 

I find this all very interesting....guys out there with this method to chat up girls

[ThaWholigan]

Maybe they're offended because, like me, they prefer their men a little awkward, a little raw and honest. I hate the smoothed over veneer PUA seem to have given nerd men; with their "skills" come an inflated sense of self, and they ignore girls who would have been perfectly happy and accepting of them the way they were.

 

I think of the guy i liked two summers ago.... the one who ended up in porn. I liked him quite a lot, until he started pulling what you all identified as player moves. Trying to make me jealous, negging me, ignoring me and flirting with other girls. My interest in him plummeted. If he'd just been himself, he wouldn't have needed the games.

 

I don't need games to be attracted to a guy. But I do need honesty. I'd rather a guy fumble and murmur his way through a conversation with me, then give me a back-handed compliment. I'll give the former guy ample chances. I'll flee from the latter one.

 

What you and Janesays need to understand is that for every girl like you who likes awkward guys, there are many who simply aren't. There isn't enough of you.

 

And regarding the negging stuff, as I have noted - hardly any guys do that nowadays and they don't get away with it much.

 

This is why I believe dating for a lot of guys is a numbers game, at least it is so for me to an extent. Awkward guys will have to talk to a lot of girls to even find girls like you. Logic dictates, they will need to be able to hold their own in some way.

[Janesays]

It's not a religion, not a cult, not an "ism" with some particular doctrine. It is a broad, large, diverse business that is in essence no different than the million/billion dollar relationship advice book industry women spend so much money on.

 

The sentiment "PUA is bad," is exactly equivalent to the statement "relationship and self help books are bad," total nonstarter that makes no sense at all.

 

This thread isn't about happily ever after relationship goals. There are lots of those threads, I post in many of them. No more response from me to your derail attempts.

 

 

Did I ever ONCE say 'PUA is bad' or all the men who preach PUA are evil bed notchers? No, those are YOUR words put into MY mouth.

 

I'm merely saying that it hasn't worked on me and I was trying to determine the reasons WHY it doesn't work on me (or women LIKE me.)

 

My theory is that it isn't because I'm looking to hook up with some guy at a bar, nor am interested in men who list that as one of their goals or even consider that a measure of 'success.'

 

I say that if you want to be that type of man with those types of goals, then go for it. What consenting adults do with their free time isn't really my business. I'm just saying that if you're more of a romantic guy who isn't just looking for hook ups, but wants to meet the Mother of his children and the woman he wants to grow old with....maybe, JUST MAYBE, this 'method' isn't for HIM.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Janesays

[dasein]

Ok guys and gals...you probably all know the PUA's forums.

What one forum has to say is always revolving round a woman's interest level. Same goes for PUA's. They're always about not contacting her and leave her wondering what's going on.

 

The bottom line for me is: there is SOME truth in these ideas. After all, you don't want to come off too needy. But on the other hand, I'm just not able to completely ignore a girl to raise her interest level. I mean, come on, if I'm not interesting or good looking or smart enough myself to keep her interest level high, then what is?

 

So, what do you all think about this?

 

OP hasn't been back that I can tell, but am interested in discussing any of the specific issues raised in this post, not other things for other threads going forward.

 

There is a common sense component to the "don't contact too much too soon" issue OP raises. People IMO get way too involved too fast today. Consumer society and marketing has convinced people that they simply must be involved and having sex or they are missing out on life... and if they aren't, they need to buy XYZ to change things.

 

I see over and over here threads where people get all up each others business way too fast instead of stepping back and not preformatting every new person they meet into an instant relationship prospect. People are much better off to tone back contact in the early going because they are dealing with what are essentially strangers, and all the early contact breeds a false sense of intimacy and knowing the other person. Further, all the early too much contact can kill attraction in women, dead. Not always, but it can and does often tip the balance, and many threads here evidence that.

 

Moreover, light early contact is a screen to avoid clingers or codependent types. If people get turned off because they didn't get called within 24 or even 48 hours after giving a phone number, they a) generally don't have the kind of rich, full life one would seek in a partner... too much time on their hands, b) have unrealistic expectations and possibly a privileged attitude, c) are plain crazy.

 

It's not really that much about "making her wonder" teasing or manipulating someone, but having early contact rules of thumb that reflect that one has a full life with options. If one doesn't have a full life with options, one isn't ready to date or be in a relationship IMO.

[verhrzn]

What you and Janesays need to understand is that for every girl like you who likes awkward guys, there are many who simply aren't. There isn't enough of you.

 

And regarding the negging stuff, as I have noted - hardly any guys do that nowadays and they don't get away with it much.

 

This is why I believe dating for a lot of guys is a numbers game, at least it is so for me to an extent. Awkward guys will have to talk to a lot of girls to even find girls like you. Logic dictates, they will need to be able to hold their own in some way.

 

Well until we line up all of the awkward men and the women who like awkward men, we can't know that. I just think awkward women are less visible. A lot of my "awkward" female brethren have accepted the party line that if they can't get a relationship, they should be happy anyway.... So while they dip their toe back into the dating world, you find em in not-dating environments like sewing classes and church groups and the like.

 

I don't think more awkward men exist than women; I just think awkward men are more vocal, and awkward women are just not desperate enough to change themselves for dating. They shrug their shoulders, say "I have better things to do," and go back to watching Dr. Who marathons. They don't complain; they just give up.

 

PUA is hard-wired almost entirely to appeal to women who DON'T like awkward men... women in bars, in environments that "lead" to dating. So, yeah, those women probably won't like awkward men, because they are not in environments where awkwardness is "okay."

 

Birds of a feather flock together... guys COULD be themselves if they were a bit more creative about places to locate potential dating partners, and didn't mind pulling women who were LIKE them.

 

I offer get the impression that awkward men don't want awkward women (or women who would like them) because of a self-hatred complex. "I don't want to belong to a club with such low standards that they'd accept me." So, if a woman likes him without him needing to change, she MUST be low-quality.

 

It's why I loathe PUA. You don't need to change yourself... you just need to accept yourself, accept the people LIKE yourself, and get creative about where you look for dates.

[ThaWholigan]

I say that if you want to be that type of man with those types of goals, then go for it. What consenting adults do with their free time isn't really my business. I'm just saying that if you're more of a romantic guy who isn't just looking for hook ups, but wants to meet the Mother of his children and the woman he wants to grow old with....maybe, JUST MAYBE, this 'method' isn't for HIM.

 

And I think I would disagree. If he doesn't know how to even talk to women without being blown out or Friendzoned, PUA may be his only hope.

 

It helped me at least learn how to talk to women, and hopefully I will find the mother of my children. All I know is I would be worse off if I didn't learn.

[ThaWholigan]

Well until we line up all of the awkward men and the women who like awkward men, we can't know that. I just think awkward women are less visible. A lot of my "awkward" female brethren have accepted the party line that if they can't get a relationship, they should be happy anyway.... So while they dip their toe back into the dating world, you find em in not-dating environments like sewing classes and church groups and the like.

 

Well awkward women need to make themselves visible then. Awkward men are typically clueless by nature, no wonder they can't see you .

 

I don't think more awkward men exist than women; I just think awkward men are more vocal, and awkward women are just not desperate enough to change themselves for dating. They shrug their shoulders, say "I have better things to do," and go back to watching Dr. Who marathons. They don't complain; they just give up.

 

Why is an awkward man "desperate" for changing? Or at least learning to be able to talk to women?

 

PUA is hard-wired almost entirely to appeal to women who DON'T like awkward men... women in bars, in environments that "lead" to dating. So, yeah, those women probably won't like awkward men, because they are not in environments where awkwardness is "okay."

 

Birds of a feather flock together... guys COULD be themselves if they were a bit more creative about places to locate potential dating partners, and didn't mind pulling women who were LIKE them.

 

I disagree. It's supposed to make a man be able to talk to ANY woman he is attracted to.

 

I offer get the impression that awkward men don't want awkward women (or women who would like them) because of a self-hatred complex. "I don't want to belong to a club with such low standards that they'd accept me." So, if a woman likes him without him needing to change, she MUST be low-quality.

 

I disagree. I think some awkward men aren't that bothered about that. They just want someone they are attracted to. If shes awkward or not doesn't matter. I do think some get caught up in the status of being with a stereotypical hot girl, but I don't think it's as important as made out.

 

It's why I loathe PUA. You don't need to change yourself... you just need to accept yourself, accept the people LIKE yourself, and get creative about where you look for dates.

 

You don't even have to change yourself drastically with PUA. You just become better able to talk to women, simple.

 

Negging is dead, nobody uses that stuff anymore. Why people keep bringing it up is stupid.

[Taramere]

Women go for STORY. They want to feel that the guy she is so captivated by got his personality from life experiences, and NOT from downloading last month for a low 3-figure dollar sum of money.

 

Too right. How many people, male or female, would want somebody whose "personality" is something they bought online for three figures, as opposed to something that has formed from a combination of temperament, learning and life experience?

[Janesays]

I don't think more awkward men exist than women; I just think awkward men are more vocal, and awkward women are just not desperate enough to change themselves for dating. They shrug their shoulders, say "I have better things to do," and go back to watching Dr. Who marathons. They don't complain; they just give up.

 

I wouldn't even call myself an 'awkward woman.' I'm generally considered fairly attractive. Not glamorous or gorgeous (I've never been called 'stunning'), but most men say things like I'm pretty, sweet, adorable, cute, beautiful. I'm successful financially, I have no problems talking to people. I can be a little internally shy, but you'd never know it to meet me. I had no problem pulling dates. In fact, when I tried online dating fresh out of my divorce, there were weekends where I had a 6 'first dates' in two days. (Breakfast, lunch, dinner) I enjoyed dating. In fact, I'm still friends with a lot of those guys....they were good guys. I even hooked up one with one of my single girl friends.

 

Being single just didn't bother me. I liked being single. I loved living alone. I had a lot of other things going on in my life that while I was OPEN to meeting 'Mr. Right' if it never happened, I would still consider mine a live well lived. Is that giving up? Or is that just taking each day as it comes?

 

Eh, maybe V and I are just two sides of the same coin. Or weirdos. Who knows? All I know is what I like and what I like is a certain degree of transparency and someone who is willing to give just as much as I am.

[dasein]

Just adding.... wondering how much your success has to do with yours and their attractiveness.

 

I find this all very interesting....guys out there with this method to chat up girls

 

It's just a particular example, typed in five minutes or less, to show how making a woman feel a little insecure is not necessarily motivated by malice, and not always a bad thing. My intent was not to advocate that men reading the thread should run out and do that.

[verhrzn]

Well awkward women need to make themselves visible then. Awkward men are typically clueless by nature, no wonder they can't see you .

 

Well, they do, just not at bars or sports leagues or whatever. Just like awkward men, awkward women seem to stay in "gender restricted" social circles... Hobbies that are female dominated, or only include "safe" men (like husbands.) It's why I tell guys to pick up sewing, or cake-decorating, or scrap booking, or Dr. Who/HP fanfic. These places are CRAWLING with "awkward" women.

 

Why is an awkward man "desperate" for changing? Or at least learning to be able to talk to women?

 

You're the one always saying to have a life beyond dating, that a person should learn to be okay with their life even if they're single. I think a lot of awkward women have that down. I see em on FB, single (and without guys chasing them, ahem) but perfectly happy running around having their adventures. If no guys notice them, hey, whatever, they have a costume to finish! I quite envy them. I have no doubt they have sleepless nights being sad and lonely, but they don't seem to let it consume them.

 

Awkward guys don't seem to have a lot of joy or wishes for improve outside of dating. It seems everything they do.... the hobbies they pick up, the social skills they acquire... is all in pursuit of sex.

 

 

I disagree. It's supposed to make a man be able to talk to ANY woman he is attracted to.

 

But it will backfire in the case of awkward women... women who would have liked the guy without the PUA-techniques to begin with. PUA is also focused (as far as I've read) exclusively on places where women supposedly have their 'bitch shield' up, like bars and clubs and coffee houses. That is NOT where awkward women hang out. The atmosphere is completely different in a cake decorating class than it is at a bar.

 

PUA doesn't seem to acknowledge it; it seems to be a "one size fits all" approach.

 

 

I disagree. I think some awkward men aren't that bothered about that. They just want someone they are attracted to. If shes awkward or not doesn't matter. I do think some get caught up in the status of being with a stereotypical hot girl, but I don't think it's as important as made out.

 

If they don't mind someone like themselves, then why are they changing? Why are they picking up PUA? When there are plenty of women who would already like them (because of the awkwardness and similarities), then why are guys changing? Answer: because they want someone different from themselves, someone "better."

 

 

You don't even have to change yourself drastically with PUA. You just become better able to talk to women, simple.

 

Negging is dead, nobody uses that stuff anymore. Why people keep bringing it up is stupid.

 

Maybe not negging. But plenty of women have pointed out they'd abandon a guy if he played the push-pull game with her. And plenty of women have no interest in being "just another hit."

 

It is really not that hard to talk to a woman. Just talk to her like she's a fellow human being. Do you really need PUA to tell you this??

[ThaWholigan]

Too right. How many people, male or female, would want somebody whose "personality" is something they bought online for three figures, as opposed to something that has formed from a combination of temperament, learning and life experience?

But that's not what it is.

 

Had my personality really changed when I started to apply some of the things I learned?

 

Not really. I'm still the same awkward guy with autism. Only I can actually socialize if I need to. I can read body language and seduce a woman who is attracted to me. Before, I couldn't even pull the ones who liked me. Dare I say, despite the many flaws that I found in PUA, if it wasn't for that I would still be a clueless virgin.

[GorillaTheater]

But that's not what it is.

 

Had my personality really changed when I started to apply some of the things I learned?

 

Not really. I'm still the same awkward guy with autism. Only I can actually socialize if I need to. I can read body language and seduce a woman who is attracted to me. Before, I couldn't even pull the ones who liked me. Dare I say, despite the many flaws that I found in PUA, if it wasn't for that I would still be a clueless virgin.

 

Excuse me for any perceived insult, because I really do mean it as a compliment, however inartful:

 

It's very hard for me to believe that you're autistic, considering how well and comprehensively you have your sh*t together.

[VeveCakes]

It's just a particular example, typed in five minutes or less, to show how making a woman feel a little insecure is not necessarily motivated by malice, and not always a bad thing. My intent was not to advocate that men reading the thread should run out and do that.

 

Yeah it was a good example. I think it works on certain types.

 

Now how does one continue this into a relationship should this be what they so desire? When does the acting fade?

[ThaWholigan]

Well, they do, just not at bars or sports leagues or whatever. Just like awkward men, awkward women seem to stay in "gender restricted" social circles... Hobbies that are female dominated, or only include "safe" men (like husbands.) It's why I tell guys to pick up sewing, or cake-decorating, or scrap booking, or Dr. Who/HP fanfic. These places are CRAWLING with "awkward" women.

 

It depends though. Is it an interest that particular individual would be interested in? That's the main thing really. Either way, I would tell awkward people of both genders to diversify a little. I can sit down and be in a sewing class or something like that, but you will also find me in a sports bar talking about football too.

 

You're the one always saying to have a life beyond dating, that a person should learn to be okay with their life even if they're single. I think a lot of awkward women have that down. I see em on FB, single (and without guys chasing them, ahem) but perfectly happy running around having their adventures. If no guys notice them, hey, whatever, they have a costume to finish! I quite envy them. I have no doubt they have sleepless nights being sad and lonely, but they don't seem to let it consume them.

 

That's true. I do say that, and I do think it's important. That doesn't mean I tell guys they should continue to be sh*t with women. My life doesn't revolve around chasing women - but I still had to learn how to be attractive, especially if I eventually want to have a relationship with a woman. That doesn't require completely "changing ones personality".

 

Awkward guys don't seem to have a lot of joy or wishes for improve outside of dating. It seems everything they do.... the hobbies they pick up, the social skills they acquire... is all in pursuit of sex.

 

That's not just awkward men though. That's for a lot of guys. If not for sex, then for the love of a good woman. Either way, it's all about her.

 

But it will backfire in the case of awkward women... women who would have liked the guy without the PUA-techniques to begin with. PUA is also focused (as far as I've read) exclusively on places where women supposedly have their 'bitch shield' up, like bars and clubs and coffee houses. That is NOT where awkward women hang out. The atmosphere is completely different in a cake decorating class than it is at a bar.

 

PUA doesn't seem to acknowledge it; it seems to be a "one size fits all" approach.

 

On the contrary, you clearly haven't read enough PUA at all . It's not all geared to girls in bars. There's geared to daytime (grocery stores etc), interests, inner game (i.e. gaining confidence, becoming a more interesting person in life in general) etc.....there's so much more to PUA than hitting on "9s and 10s" in bars with bitch shields.

 

Again, that's really not the point!!

 

If they don't mind someone like themselves, then why are they changing? Why are they picking up PUA? When there are plenty of women who would already like them (because of the awkwardness and similarities), then why are guys changing? Answer: because they want someone different from themselves, someone "better."

 

Better is not the word. The words are "someone I am attracted to". That could be an awkward woman or a woman in a bar.

 

And again, just because he reads PUA, doesn't mean he's "changing". You are missing the point again. He may still be messing up with even the awkward women who LIKE HIM. That's the point. You obviously do not understand that the vast majority of the PUA that even I've read, is not what you guys are describing it as.

 

 

 

Maybe not negging. But plenty of women have pointed out they'd abandon a guy if he played the push-pull game with her. And plenty of women have no interest in being "just another hit."

 

It is really not that hard to talk to a woman. Just talk to her like she's a fellow human being. Do you really need PUA to tell you this??

YES!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Some guys really do!!!! Believe it or not. I can talk to a woman and empathize with her because she is a human being all day long. It's the first thing I learned how to do, I learned that before I learned PUA. Where did I get? Nowhere. I made friends, which was great. But no relationships, no sex, nothing like that. Sure, it didn't bother me as much as it does other guys. But I was still a clueless virgin who was messing up with even the girls who already liked me.

 

So it's not hard to talk to a woman. But it's hard to be attractive if you don't know how to be yourself in a way that makes you come across that way. You will even mess up with the ones who like you.

[ThaWholigan]

Excuse me for any perceived insult, because I really do mean it as a compliment, however inartful:

 

It's very hard for me to believe that you're autistic, considering how well and comprehensively you have your sh*t together.

 

I get that a lot

 

It's the product of a few things:

 

An early disability statement followed by 2 late diagnoses. And living in an unforgiving environment where one was forced to adapt. I learned the basics well enough and it took a while. But I was completely horrible with girls and never got anywhere until PUA .

 

And I don't have all my sh*t together. I still live with my mum at 24 and I'm not as physically athletic or financially well off as I'd like to be.

[verhrzn]

Yeah, I'm sure awkward guys just LOVE awkward, average women. Come on, Tha, I know you wanna defend your tribe here, but let's not pretend that PUA isn't at least a little motivated by the idea that even though you're a fat, short, balding guy you too could score a model.

[ThaWholigan]

Yeah, I'm sure awkward guys just LOVE awkward, average women. Come on, Tha, I know you wanna defend your tribe here, but let's not pretend that PUA isn't at least a little motivated by the idea that even though you're a fat, short, balding guy you too could score a model.

They're not my tribe . I'm just making the point that to lump every guy who uses/learns from PUA into a little box is misguided.

 

And I have already acknowledge more than once that there are sections of PUA promoted that espouse things close to "getting 9s and 10s". The point is, if the guys who learn from it are anything like me, they don't even have a rating system for women or want models. Believe me, I've met models - hot as they are, I'm not crazy for them .

 

It's about people you are ATTRACTED TO. If to some guys that excludes "awkward, average women", then that is an unfortunate outcome. But you already know that I do not believe that personal beauty is objective. I've experienced it with my own eyes, and even been very attracted to women who are, for lack of a better term, "average or below". Guess what? I usually messed up with those girls too - or they weren't attracted to me!

[dasein]

Now how does one continue this into a relationship should this be what they so desire? When does the acting fade?

 

It never ends IMO. I have found that GFs like to be seduced no matter how long we have been dating, the sex is definitely better. After a point, it just becomes ingrained as a permanent aspect of personality, so isn't even acting any more.

 

There are dating gurus like Doc Love, mentioned in OP, who are specifically relationship coaches. His position is that gaining and maintaining attraction level in women, being a challenge, should be an ongoing effort throughout relationships and marriage, and that men make serious mistakes if we don't put in that effort.

[verhrzn]

They're not my tribe . I'm just making the point that to lump every guy who uses/learns from PUA into a little box is misguided.

 

And I have already acknowledge more than once that there are sections of PUA promoted that espouse things close to "getting 9s and 10s". The point is, if the guys who learn from it are anything like me, they don't even have a rating system for women or want models. Believe me, I've met models - hot as they are, I'm not crazy for them .

 

It's about people you are ATTRACTED TO. If to some guys that excludes "awkward, average women", then that is an unfortunate outcome. But you already know that I do not believe that personal beauty is objective. I've experienced it with my own eyes, and even been very attracted to women who are, for lack of a better term, "average or below". Guess what? I usually messed up with those girls too - or they weren't attracted to me!

 

*Shrugs* All I can say is, from my own personal experiences, that by the vast majority, guys who studied PUA are creepy and manipulative, and their egos seem to grow astronomically. Whereas before PUA they might have given me a shot, after PUA I'm the 3 who is cock-blocking their target.

 

If I get even a whiff of PUA around a guy, I flee in the other direction.