The system, PUA and others

[dasein]

I think that guys that are very upfront about how they feel about you are the truly confident ones.

 

If that's what you like and respond to, that's great. IMO it's not the way to go though for men generally. PUA is not designed to be an individualized solution. It is a broad brush starting point for approaching and generating attraction and sexual interest in "women," not individual women, at least not initially or basically. There are strands of PUA that attempt to "type" women for purposes of estimating response, but that's not the basic intent. It is that way of necessity because at the approach/attraction phase, men don't have the luxury of knowing anything individualized about any particular woman they may approach.

 

And if it's easy to spot or obvious, just like a woman with bad fake eyelashes or crooked lipstick, it isn't being applied correctly. I contend that most women who claim PUA doesn't work on them mistake common generic dating advice for PUA techniques or just bad stock lines and posturing, and don't really know whether it works on them or not, because like a good dye job, it's hard to spot.

[Janesays]

If that's what you like and respond to, that's great. IMO it's not the way to go though for men generally. PUA is not designed to be an individualized solution. It is a broad brush starting point for approaching and generating attraction and sexual interest in "women," not individual women, at least not initially or basically. There are strands of PUA that attempt to "type" women for purposes of estimating response, but that's not the basic intent. It is that way of necessity because at the approach/attraction phase, men don't have the luxury of knowing anything individualized about any particular woman they may approach.

 

And if it's easy to spot or obvious, just like a woman with bad fake eyelashes or crooked lipstick, it isn't being applied correctly. I contend that most women who claim PUA doesn't work on them mistake common generic dating advice for PUA techniques or just bad stock lines and posturing, and don't really know whether it works on them or not, because like a good dye job, it's hard to spot.

 

 

Well, I can spot it and it usually bores me. I never really understood why people purposely create anxiety when it comes to dating. I prefer to be around people who make me feel GOOD, HAPPY, and SECURE.

 

Likewise, I want people to feel that way about being around me.

 

When I meet someone I like, I am EXCITED about them. I want someone to be excited about me as well. If I'm all happy and excited and they are lukewarm, at best, then my excitement wanes and disappears.

 

I suppose if men are approaching dating as a 'most girls do this, so I should do that' and 'the law of averages state...' then PUA probably gets them what they want.

 

But I always thought of dating as a way to meet new people, have fun, and ultimately find someone truly, truly special. And if someone is truly special, then how could a 'method' possibly work on them?

 

Or, maybe I'm wrong, and it says somewhere in the literature that PUA doesn't work on the 'type' of girl that I am or whatever. I will admit that I do conduct myself differently from a lot of my female friends. I just know that if a man doesn't return my enthusiasm in dating, I look elsewhere. And you can't say my current fiance was some super hard to spot player, because he was a virgin at 32 years old when we met. And in some ways, awkward. Doesn't change my love and adoration for him as I've never met anyone else quite like him.

[ThaWholigan]

Well, I can spot it and it usually bores me. I never really understood why people purposely create anxiety when it comes to dating. I prefer to be around people who make me feel GOOD, HAPPY, and SECURE.

 

Likewise, I want people to feel that way about being around me.

 

When I meet someone I like, I am EXCITED about them. I want someone to be excited about me as well. If I'm all happy and excited and they are lukewarm, at best, then my excitement wanes and disappears.

 

I suppose if men are approaching dating as a 'most girls do this, so I should do that' and 'the law of averages state...' then PUA probably gets them what they want.

 

But I always thought of dating as a way to meet new people, have fun, and ultimately find someone truly, truly special. And if someone is truly special, then how could a 'method' possibly work on them?

 

Or, maybe I'm wrong, and it says somewhere in the literature that PUA doesn't work on the 'type' of girl that I am or whatever. I will admit that I do conduct myself differently from a lot of my female friends. I just know that if a man doesn't return my enthusiasm in dating, I look elsewhere. And you can't say my current fiance was some super hard to spot player, because he was a virgin at 32 years old when we met. And in some ways, awkward. Doesn't change my love and adoration for him as I've never met anyone else quite like him.

In some ways, your fiance was very lucky to meet you. It took me a VERY long time before I met a woman who actually didn't care that I was a virgin and enthusiastic to meet me - and she happened to be one of the most promiscuous women I ever met who wasn't interested in a BF but that's another story. Luckily for me, I am a patient and optimistic man. It is a shame others cannot be more like me in this regard.

 

I am always excited to meet girls, I love women. But the thing about that enthusiasm is that it can easily cause problems like this:

 

1) You may come across as needy.

 

2) Your enthusiasm may cause nervous moments and nervous words that betray your attraction.

 

I think you are right. Every woman is an individual and you are probably moreso than others in this respect. However you are correct that there is a level of "most girls do this so I should do that" side to PUA that is actually EXTREMELY crucial for men to be able to do better at attracting someone, even for a long-term relationship/marriage. I screwed up a lot, and were it not for some of the things I read in PUA, I would have continued to do so.

[Janesays]

In some ways, your fiance was very lucky to meet you.

 

No way, it was I who was lucky to meet him!

 

It took me a VERY long time before I met a woman who actually didn't care that I was a virgin and enthusiastic to meet me - and she happened to be one of the most promiscuous women I ever met who wasn't interested in a BF but that's another story.

 

Er...well that's definitely not me!

[dasein]

Well, I can spot it and it usually bores me. I never really understood why people purposely create anxiety when it comes to dating. I prefer to be around people who make me feel GOOD, HAPPY, and SECURE.

 

A man who has studied PUA will incite all those feelings, much moreso than the man he was in the past who would likely annoy or even scare you, turn you off at the least. Remember, for the most part, PUA techniques are crutches and training wheels.

 

It's a mistake to think that PUA focuses on the negative because one of the more infamous techniques in a -tiny- fraction of it involves making women feel insecure. If the insecurity thing works, it is only the first stage to get attention and differentiate oneself from all the others, just a flashing sign. THEN it becomes exactly the things you describe, feeling happy, secure and good generally, basically creating an environment where she feels she can safely express and explore her desires and attraction.

 

When I meet someone I like, I am EXCITED about them. I want someone to be excited about me as well. If I'm all happy and excited and they are lukewarm, at best, then my excitement wanes and disappears.

 

I think you are confusing the difference between PUA and stock, common sense dating advice handed out on forums like this. I post plenty of such common sense dating advice myself, "don't call too soon, don't shower with compliments, etc." It's useful, but it isn't PUA. Remember that kind of stock dating advice is often directed at posters who bore, pressure or freak out women over and over by clinging and talking about heavy topics like "I like you do you like me" way too soon with women who are essentially strangers.

[Brunettie]

What is a PUA??

[GorillaTheater]

What is a PUA??

 

Portland Ukulele Association

[dasein]

PUA is a very broad type of business and source of dating and seduction advice for men seeking to improve their dating and sex lives. Stands for "Pickup Artist," which is probably the most unfortunate title imaginable, but we men are pragmatic and "Dating and Relationship Advice for Men" is too long.

[ThaWholigan]

No way, it was I who was lucky to meet him!

 

That's sweet .

 

Still, I consider him fortunate - most guys I know lose their virginity the way I did . Which, in and of itself, isn't bad - I had fun . But in the sense that they will encounter MANY women who aren't as appreciative of their inexperience, and as a result they will project that on many women. I was fortunate that I became comfortable with it and less anxious. That definitely helped.

 

Er...well that's definitely not me!

 

I would imagine not, not with the stories this girl told me .

 

Funnily enough, I probably would have still messed up with her had I not learned what I learned. As much as I rag on my fellow inexperienced guys here a little for being moany, I understand the difficulty. It's not as simple as "being yourself" and then some woman magically appears in your life who loves you. I wouldn't insult your relationship and call it a fluke - but it's not often it happens that way.

 

That's why there is a necessity for something like PUA to be around. Sure, it could be better, and there probably might be if we dig VERY deep, but you cannot get much better in terms of helping well-intentioned men who normally struggle to get better.

[VeveCakes]

I was on the guys side until the end there where I just read they encourage you to make a woman feel insecure? Ughhh.... No one, man or woman should NEVER set out to make someone feel insecure. Insecurities are one of the biggest causes for sex and relationship issues, Jeeze.

 

One question though, I know women who apply the same tactics, never call or text first, wait for the guy to etc etc. What happens when both parties play this game?

[VeveCakes]

I can't edit that but I meant to say EVER.

[ThaWholigan]

I was on the guys side until the end there where I just read they encourage you to make a woman feel insecure? Ughhh.... No one, man or woman should NEVER set out to make someone feel insecure. Insecurities are one of the biggest causes for sex and relationship issues, Jeeze.

 

It was a big part of the Mystery Method, and sometimes showed up in other stuff like RooshV/Roissy stuff, which wasn't as big as it was on the internet. Nobody who had any sense took that stuff seriously. The only time it was ever explained fully was in Josh Pellicer's comments about Pre-selection, which was interesting. It was about "making yourself look like a man who is attractive to women".

 

I agree in principle, insecurity is not something to be encouraged.

 

One question though, I know women who apply the same tactics, never call or text first, wait for the guy to etc etc. What happens when both parties play this game?

 

A long and drawn out seduction, complete with drama, fireworks and pussyfooting around.

[Stephanie]

*****Moderator Note*****

 

Let's keep the personal insults off this thread and keep the posts on topic please.

Since this is my second post in this thread I will add that the next insult thrown out after my post gets a 10 day vacation from posting

 

Thanks

[GorillaTheater]

An observation I've made before, which matches a point Dasein made earlier in this thread, is that one good thing that can come from PUA stuff is that it gets some guys to talk to women who've never had the guts or clue to do so before. You know who I'm talking about; LS is rife with them.

 

Sure, the "techniques" are stupid and insulting, but at least they're talking to real, live women. That's leaps and bounds over where they were before. If they keep at it, I'd imagine that the "techniques" take a back seat fairly quickly.

 

It's probably a good education for younger women too, as far as learning about and hopefully not falling for that kind of schtick.

[Imajerk17]

A man who has studied PUA will incite all those feelings, much moreso than the man he was in the past who would likely annoy or even scare you, turn you off at the least. Remember, for the most part, PUA techniques are crutches and training wheels.

 

It's a mistake to think that PUA focuses on the negative because one of the more infamous techniques in a -tiny- fraction of it involves making women feel insecure. If the insecurity thing works, it is only the first stage to get attention and differentiate oneself from all the others, just a flashing sign. THEN it becomes exactly the things you describe, feeling happy, secure and good generally, basically creating an environment where she feels she can safely express and explore her desires and attraction.

 

 

 

I think you are confusing the difference between PUA and stock, common sense dating advice handed out on forums like this. I post plenty of such common sense dating advice myself, "don't call too soon, don't shower with compliments, etc." It's useful, but it isn't PUA. Remember that kind of stock dating advice is often directed at posters who bore, pressure or freak out women over and over by clinging and talking about heavy topics like "I like you do you like me" way too soon with women who are essentially strangers.

 

Good post, and good points. But as I said, it's pretty much pointless to try to debate women on the merits of PUA. They are almost HARDWIRED to reject this sort of thing. Not all of them, but as a gender.

 

Women go for STORY. They want to feel that the guy she is so captivated by got his personality from life experiences, and NOT from downloading last month for a low 3-figure dollar sum of money. They want to feel that the guy worked up the nerve to go talk to HER, and not that this was all part of a day's "Sarging" as he works on getting rid of his "approach anxiety".

 

I basically agree w everything you said on this thread though....

[ThaWholigan]

An observation I've made before, which matches a point Dasein made earlier in this thread, is that one good thing that can come from PUA stuff is that it gets some guys to talk to women who've never had the guts or clue to do so before. You know who I'm talking about; LS is rife with them.

 

Sure, the "techniques" are stupid and insulting, but at least they're talking to real, live women. That's leaps and bounds over where they were before. If they keep at it, I'd imagine that the "techniques" take a back seat fairly quickly.

 

It's probably a good education for younger women too, as far as learning about and hopefully not falling for that kind of schtick.

I'd liken it to Bruce Lee's martial art, Jeet Kune Do. Within which, he learned different arts and discarded the things he didn't need to refine his own personal fighting style.

[ThaWholigan]

Good post, and good points. But as I said, it's pretty much pointless to try to debate women on the merits of PUA. They are almost HARDWIRED to reject this sort of thing. Not all of them, but as a gender.

 

Women go for STORY. They want to feel that the guy she is so captivated by got his personality from life experiences, and NOT from downloading last month for a low 3-figure dollar sum of money. They want to feel that the guy worked up the nerve to go talk to HER, and not that this was all part of a day's "Sarging" as he works on getting rid of his "approach anxiety".

 

I basically agree w everything you said on this thread though....

I'm beginning to agree....

[dasein]

I was on the guys side until the end there where I just read they encourage you to make a woman feel insecure? Ughhh.... No one, man or woman should NEVER set out to make someone feel insecure. Insecurities are one of the biggest causes for sex and relationship issues, Jeeze.

 

One question though, I know women who apply the same tactics, never call or text first, wait for the guy to etc etc. What happens when both parties play this game?

 

Imagine a lounge bar. A woman is sitting on a stool there having a cocktail, maybe thinking she might like to meet an interesting guy. Well good for her because 8 guys do in fact approach her, all decent looking and polite, 4 say "Hey gorgeous!" or similar, the other 4 say "Hi I'm XYZ. Can I buy you a drink?" She talks to all of them in a perfunctory way as they ask her questions about where she works, what she likes, but her general feeling is -YAWN- WHY DON'T ANY INTERESTING FUN GUYS EVER APPROACH ME? WHERE ARE ALL THE GOOD ONES? (ever heard that one here or elsewhere? ever thought it?)

 

Then number 9 walks up, and says "Your hair color is great, do you dye it yourself?" Cognitive dissonance ensues, "He made a compliment I never or rarely hear about my hair??, but kind of an insult, what does he mean, is he serious, teasing me in a flirty way, mocking?" and in that question mark that takes place in under one second, in that wee bit of insecurity he engendered, that guy has differentiated himself. He has caused her to ask herself a question. That question mark, provided she finds him reasonably physically attractive, is the foundation on which attraction is built, because she is now focused on him and what he is saying because it was different and a little puzzling. The stage is set, but it's just a stage, not the goal.

 

She says grinning, "what the hell are you saying?" starting to get ready to bow up and throw some tude at him then brush him off. He follows up with a warm smile, "Aww c'mon, a woman like you couldn't possibly be that insecure." More cognitive dissonance, more puzzle. "Did he just insult me again? ALL THE REST BOW DOWN AND SUPPLICATE LIKE DOGS AT THIS POINT, WHY DOESN'T HE? Call me insecure? But he did compliment me also. WTH is this guy going to say next?"

 

The point is that particular technique is just an opener, the equivalent of the guy spinning the sign out on the highway, an ad. It's not supposed be a hypno ray that makes her think "I... MUST... SEX... THIS... MAN!" quite the opposite. He has demonstrated high social value by engaging her brain in a way she hasn't experienced, while at the same time, for himself, knocking off any residual bigheadedness due to being recently approached by 8 other guys.

 

This is just an example of how engendering a little insecurity can be an effective ice breaker. Now women may retort, "Well I've heard that and it didn't work on me." Fair enough, but that's back to hypno ray thinking, no one is trying to fool or manipulate you, just pique your interest and break through noise. It most certainly DOES work generally, as I have experienced dozens of times in person. In fact, every single time I have used this approach on a woman, I have ended up making out with her fairly soon after. Every single time. Not because I tricked her, but because she wanted to meet an interesting guy whom she feels interested enough in to kiss.

[verhrzn]

Imagine a lounge bar. A woman is sitting on a stool there having a cocktail, maybe thinking she might like to meet an interesting guy. Well good for her because 8 guys do in fact approach her, all decent looking and polite, 4 say "Hey gorgeous!" or similar, the other 4 say "Hi I'm XYZ. Can I buy you a drink?" She talks to all of them in a perfunctory way as they ask her questions about where she works, what she likes, but her general feeling is -YAWN- WHY DON'T ANY INTERESTING FUN GUYS EVER APPROACH ME? WHERE ARE ALL THE GOOD ONES? (ever heard that one here or elsewhere? ever thought it?)

 

Then number 9 walks up, and says "Your hair color is great, do you dye it yourself?" Cognitive dissonance ensues, "He made a compliment I never or rarely hear about my hair??, but kind of an insult, what does he mean, is he serious, teasing me in a flirty way, mocking?" and in that question mark that takes place in under one second, in that wee bit of insecurity he engendered, that guy has differentiated himself. He has caused her to ask herself a question. That question mark, provided she finds him reasonably physically attractive, is the foundation on which attraction is built, because she is now focused on him and what he is saying because it was different and a little puzzling. The stage is set, but it's just a stage, not the goal.

 

She says grinning, "what the hell are you saying?" starting to get ready to bow up and throw some tude at him then brush him off. He follows up with a warm smile, "Aww c'mon, a woman like you couldn't possibly be that insecure." More cognitive dissonance, more puzzle. "Did he just insult me again? ALL THE REST BOW DOWN AND SUPPLICATE LIKE DOGS AT THIS POINT, WHY DOESN'T HE? Call me insecure? But he did compliment me also. WTH is this guy going to say next?"

 

The point is that particular technique is just an opener, the equivalent of the guy spinning the sign out on the highway, an ad. It's not supposed be a hypno ray that makes her think "I... MUST... SEX... THIS... MAN!" quite the opposite. He has demonstrated high social value by engaging her brain in a way she hasn't experienced, while at the same time, for himself, knocking off any residual bigheadedness due to being recently approached by 8 other guys.

 

This is just an example of how engendering a little insecurity can be an effective ice breaker. Now women may retort, "Well I've heard that and it didn't work on me." Fair enough, but that's back to hypno ray thinking, no one is trying to fool or manipulate you, just pique your interest and break through noise. It most certainly DOES work generally, as I have experienced dozens of times in person. In fact, every single time I have used this approach on a woman, I have ended up making out with her fairly soon after. Every single time. Not because I tricked her, but because she wanted to meet an interesting guy whom she feels interested enough in to kiss.

 

Or, if the woman is anything like me, she never gets approached. And when she approaches a guy, and the guy asks if she dyes her own hair, she says in confusion," Um... I don't dye my hair," and then walks away because the guy hasn't engaged her in conversation.

 

Women who act like men? Women who act like individuals and don't all like the same thing/get the same attention?

 

Nah. Impossible! I'm an outliner.

[Janesays]

 

This is just an example of how engendering a little insecurity can be an effective ice breaker. Now women may retort, "Well I've heard that and it didn't work on me." Fair enough, but that's back to hypno ray thinking, no one is trying to fool or manipulate you, just pique your interest and break through noise. It most certainly DOES work generally, as I have experienced dozens of times in person. In fact, every single time I have used this approach on a woman, I have ended up making out with her fairly soon after. Every single time. Not because I tricked her, but because she wanted to meet an interesting guy whom she feels interested enough in to kiss.

 

 

Ok, so you made out with these girls. Ever fall in love with one? Ever marry one? Ever have children with one? Ever know, deep down in your soul, that one of these girls was your very best friend in the whole world and would have your back no matter what? Ever wanted to commit to one completely and spend your life building something wonderful together?

 

Is that all men want? To make out with a bunch of 'girls' they meet at bars?

 

I guess if that's what you're after, it could work. By the way lots of people compliment me on my hair color and ask me whether I dye it or not. I simply say, "Yes, thank you" and turn back to my drink.

[dasein]

But as I said, it's pretty much pointless to try to debate women on the merits of PUA.

 

I still think they might eventually "get it." Just the optimist in me

 

It's not evil bednotchers ladies, that's like claiming hammers are bad because Maxwell cracked people in the head with a silver one. It's just a tool. If a guy used it to lie, well as previously stated, he's just a garden variety liar, anyone can do that. PUA teaches men how to make seduction fun for all.

[dasein]

Ever fall in love with one? Ever marry one? Ever have children with one? Ever know, deep down in your soul, that one of these girls was your very best friend in the whole world and would have your back no matter what? Ever wanted to commit to one completely and spend your life building something wonderful together?

 

Now you are trying to force your value system and prospective goals on me. That's OK I guess, but I'm not going to follow the derail.

 

Is that all men want? To make out with a bunch of 'girls' they meet at bars?

 

And now you are just being fallacious, by attempting to extend my example way further than its purpose, which was narrow, to demonstrate one example I have experienced personally, in which engendering a little insecurity in an approached woman can be a productive way to approach women and build initial attraction.

 

By the way lots of people compliment me on my hair color and ask me whether I dye it or not. I simply say, "Yes, thank you" and turn back to my drink.

 

I doubt you and I would be a match, so good for all.

[ThaWholigan]

Ok, so you made out with these girls. Ever fall in love with one? Ever marry one? Ever have children with one? Ever know, deep down in your soul, that one of these girls was your very best friend in the whole world and would have your back no matter what? Ever wanted to commit to one completely and spend your life building something wonderful together?

 

That isn't really the point. He very well could have done any of those things. However, if he never knew how to talk to women or anything like that. Or knew which ones were his type or were actually attracted to him. He wouldn't have gotten anywhere. It's simply about getting your foot in the door, being able to talk to a woman full stop without screwing up. This is the point I and others am trying to emphasize. There comes a time when you keep talking to women and "being yourself" like women always say to men, and when it never works, you need to augment your ability to articulate yourself to women somehow.

 

Is that all men want? To make out with a bunch of 'girls' they meet at bars?

 

Some do, others like myself don't. It's not as black-and-white as that.

[Janesays]

Now you are trying to force your value system and prospective goals on me. That's OK I guess, but I'm not going to follow the derail.

 

I'll take that as a 'no.'

 

 

And now you are just being fallacious, by attempting to extend my example way further than its purpose, which was narrow, to demonstrate one example I have experienced personally, in which engendering a little insecurity in an approached woman can be a productive way to approach women and build initial attraction.

 

No, I'm just trying to make a point that while PUA might be a good method for convincing tipsy girls in bars to make out with you, it's not the route a man wants to take if he's looking for the love of his life. I have yet to meet a single man who preaches PUA who is happily married to the woman of their dreams.

 

*shrugs

[ThaWholigan]

I still think they might eventually "get it." Just the optimist in me

 

It's not evil bednotchers ladies, that's like claiming hammers are bad because Maxwell cracked people in the head with a silver one. It's just a tool. If a guy used it to lie, well as previously stated, he's just a garden variety liar, anyone can do that. PUA teaches men how to make seduction fun for all.

I think Imajerk is right, I don't think women will get it really .

 

This is why so many guys I know say not to ask women for dating advice. I still do ask them, and a lot of women get offended when they hear men say not to ask women, but I understand why men say it.

 

No, I'm just trying to make a point that while PUA might be a good method for convincing tipsy girls in bars to make out with you, it's not the route a man wants to take if he's looking for the love of his life. I have yet to meet a single man who preaches PUA who is happily married to the woman of their dreams.

 

*shrugs

 

David DeAngelo (Eben Pagan) is married.