The system, PUA and others

[ThaWholigan]

I know, for a fact, that no one I've ever been seriously interested in is or ever was a pua. I've talked about this sort of thing before and the ones that actually heard of it thought it was silly nonsense and make fun of the men who practice it.

 

And as I said before, my fiance was a 32 year old virgin before I met him, so you can't say HE was this closet pua master.

 

I know what and who i like. You can label me this silly emotional ninny who is confused by the rules of attraction, but you'd be wrong. The evidence from my past simply doesn't match your accusations.

Before I sleep, can I just say that a lot of male virgins 21+ aren't as fortunate as your fiance to find a woman such as you. Just like I am fortunate in that I was able to meet the woman who eventually took mine, completely different from you though she no doubt is .

 

Verhrzn reckons that just muddling through with only life experience to go by would suffice, but sometimes one needs that boost. Sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes there really isn't a Janesays or a Verhrzn round the corner. If he finds it in a Carlos Xuma book, and finds the confidence in it (without lying or whatever is you think people who read PUA do) then so be it. It doesn't make him a PUA, nor does it make him a creep.

 

I'm with Imajerk in that I understand exactly why you guys think it's creepy, but honestly, the only reason I am even arguing the point is because I don't want to get lumped in with a label that I know doesn't apply to me, just because I learned how to better present myself to interested women from a source deemed controversial.

[TheBigQuestion]

I understand that men generally don't like being called creepy, but that doesnt change the fact that I (and apparently some other women) are creeped out by it. I'm sorry, but that's how I feel. And just like I will never be able to convince some of you that it's completely unnecessary and not effective if one wants to pursue real, sincere, genuine love, you will never be able to convince us that the men who practice the "techniques " aren't creepy guys we'd have no romantic interest in.

 

So I guess we're at a stalemate. Our only real option is to agree to disagree. And we will continue to live with and love our men that think it's a bunch of silly nonsense....and you can seek out girls who somehow think pua is sexy and cool.

 

Good luck.

 

You can't convince people that PUA is ineffective and unnecessary simply because, for many men, it IS effective. And please spare us all (not directed solely at you) the inflammatory and untrue rhetoric about how "only low class women find that sort of thing appealing." Furthermore, for many men, it HAS played an integral part in getting them to come out of their shells. And as many other posters have pointed out, generally speaking, you generally won't be able to tell what men have incorporated PUA into their dating lives. Just because you personally encountered a few bumbling dudes who were probably just starting out or used a bunch of canned, scripted material does not justify your characterization of all PUA being silly nonsense or the majority of its readers as creepy. Saying things like that just betrays how little you know about it.

 

Most PUA material is intended to instruct guys who have had next to no luck with women emulate the behaviors and inner thought processes of men who are naturally attractive to a considerable amount of women.

[TheBigQuestion]

I'm with Imajerk in that I understand exactly why you guys think it's creepy, but honestly, the only reason I am even arguing the point is because I don't want to get lumped in with a label that I know doesn't apply to me, just because I learned how to better present myself to interested women from a source deemed controversial.

 

I understand why many women do consider it creepy, but I maintain that this is so only because they either do not or refuse to actually understand any of the material. Yet they deem it appropriate to pass judgment anyway.

[MrCastle]

I know, for a fact, that no one I've ever been seriously interested in is or ever was a pua. I've talked about this sort of thing before and the ones that actually heard of it thought it was silly nonsense and make fun of the men who practice it.

 

And as I said before, my fiance was a 32 year old virgin before I met him, so you can't say HE was this closet pua master.

 

I know what and who i like. You can label me this silly emotional ninny who is confused by the rules of attraction, but you'd be wrong. The evidence from my past simply doesn't match your accusations.

 

You want to know what my reaction would be if a girl asked me "so have you ever heard of pickup artist stuff?"

 

Pickup artist? What is that?

 

I don't know like, this whole community that apparently teaches you how to meet women or attract women and stuff.

 

Haha wow really?. Heh. I guess there's a community out there for everyone.

 

I highly, highly doubt you've never came across one. Just because guys claimed to have never heard of it or heard of it but never used it, doesn't mean that's true.

 

Also, again, attraction is an emotional response. It's animal. No one decides who they are attracted to, or else every relationship would be perfect. Instead many relationships have their problems because two incompatible people in all other conceivable aspects of life just can't come to grips that they aren't a fit. The attraction won't let them.

 

We all have our types. I don't know how many women have short, skinny, hispanic men at the top of their food chain, but I'm getting dates. I'm pretty sure the 5'10 irish chick I'm dealing with now didn't grow up thinking her potential love interest would be several inches shorter than her, and roughly the same weight as her, but here we are.

[Janesays]

Oh, I've 'come across' plenty. In fact, one of my friends wrote one of the more well known pua books. Note: I said the word 'friend.' I wasn't romantically interested in him although he did try to hit on me. I simply said I've never had any romantic interest in a pua. I friend zone them almost unconsciously. My pua writer friend call me an anomaly, but I just think I'm a grown up. *shrugs

[ThaWholigan]

I understand why many women do consider it creepy, but I maintain that this is so only because they either do not or refuse to actually understand any of the material. Yet they deem it appropriate to pass judgment anyway.

I know, I didn't "download" my personality anywhere nor did I use pickup lines or negs or any of that sh*t. I post here, everyone knows my steez, I lay it out for people. Just because I read that stuff doesn't mean I use anything remotely questionable or creepy. Nor does it mean that the majority of guys who use it do.

 

Some of the guys who use it could still be the same "awkward" guys, just better presented. Not carbon-copies of Mystery and Style. And Gunswitch or whoever. Wearing furry hats and leather pants or some sh*t. . I am a normal - OK, I'm not exactly the most normal, but for all intents and purposes, AS aside, I'm normal. And I wear normal clothes. I have normal conversations of all ranges and I'm direct about my intentions. How much more honest do I need to be? .

 

All I needed was a little refinement.

[TheBigQuestion]

I know, I didn't "download" my personality anywhere nor did I use pickup lines or negs or any of that sh*t. I post here, everyone knows my steez, I lay it out for people. Just because I read that stuff doesn't mean I use anything remotely questionable or creepy. Nor does it mean that the majority of guys who use it do.

 

Some of the guys who use it could still be the same "awkward" guys, just better presented. Not carbon-copies of Mystery and Style. And Gunswitch or whoever. Wearing furry hats and leather pants or some sh*t. . I am a normal - OK, I'm not exactly the most normal, but for all intents and purposes, AS aside, I'm normal. And I wear normal clothes. I have normal conversations of all ranges and I'm direct about my intentions. How much more honest do I need to be? .

 

All I needed was a little refinement.

 

None of that matters. Some folks are simply incapable of budging in their views even when they clearly have inferior knowledge of the subject they are trying to challenge and/or insult. Exhibit A: This thread.

[TheBigQuestion]

I'm reading and considering everything that is written in this thread, regardless of who writes it. That doesn't change the fact that people making grand, sweeping, negative generalizations about PUA while citing a decade-old, highly caricatured version of the movement/lifestyle as justification are simply wrong.

 

I'm not "giving someone a hard time" just for its own sake. I'm just irked when people make judgments and generalizations about things they quite clearly know little or nothing about.

Edited November 8, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
deleted reference to deleted post

[ThaWholigan]

I have defended my reasons for reading some PUA against the ideology that anyone who uses/reads it is a manipulative creep and or is somehow doing it wrong. I'm not even out for the PUA lifestyle, I want a relationship!! I just needed to get better at talking to women.

 

Alright.....

 

What is your counter advice? Forgetting PUA, let's just put that down. I'll forget any PUA advice I ever read in my entire life for now. What is the better way forward for me? How better will I find a woman who likes me that is better than anything I've read in PUA?

 

I'm honestly curious, because if I'm really this manipulative creepy PUA person (which I'm not), then show me where to go.

Edited November 8, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
removed reference to deleted post

[ThaWholigan]

The irony of this all is that in my previous thread, I actually admitted that a lot of PUA is BS . Most of it I do not use.

 

It's right on the 1st post of the 1st page of the thread

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/354899-things-ive-learned-about-dating-last-few-months

Edited November 8, 2012 by ThaWholigan

[TheBigQuestion]

The irony of this all is that in my previous thread, I actually admitted that a lot of PUA is BS . Most of it I do not use.

 

It's right on the 1st post of the 1st page of the thread

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/354899-things-ive-learned-about-dating-last-few-months

 

Yeah, a good portion of it is really dumb. No doubt. The good thing is that from what I've seen, most of the bad stuff gets forgotten and is rarely discussed. I could be wrong though, as I haven't really read anything that could qualify as PUA in about 3 years.

[dasein]

I'm beginning to think all these "PUAs" that women claim to meet and know are actually just remedial cases who desperately -need- PUA but haven't looked into it yet.

[ThaWholigan]

Yeah, a good portion of it is really dumb. No doubt. The good thing is that from what I've seen, most of the bad stuff gets forgotten and is rarely discussed. I could be wrong though, as I haven't really read anything that could qualify as PUA in about 3 years.

Well like I said I read Pandoras Box plus the endless bonuses it came with (it was huge, 6GB to download). It now seems like a waste of good GB that I don't have. It was trying really hard not to be creepy! But it kinda was. Some of it was OK, but again, just taking snippets of what sounds like common sense and putting it into perspective.

 

Most of the stuff I read that gets called PUA probably isn't even PUA. I am more into the body language/physical stuff, like proximity, expression, posture, fitness etc. Code Of The Natural and Adonis Index (which I need to start doing IMO). They are body based and aren't to do with manipulating women.

 

I also liked the conversational stuff, like Xuma's stuff on how to banter and small talk with women (Ultimate Inner Game, Alpha Man Conversation, Secrets of the Alpha Man etc), I had a flirting book that came with a PUA collection that I thought was the most unPUA book I ever read! It looked like it was written by a woman! To this day, I still read that book.

 

There were some more PUA-like books that I read that were enjoyable if not a little controversial. Tao Of Badass was one. Double Your Dating was another, but I don't use stuff from that book. I have Mystery Method, The Game and other well known PUA books, but like I said, I don't use from them.

 

The stuff that I like more was the stuff that helped me bridge conversations. I always got stuck and didn't know what to say. It was hard for conversation to flow without me going into a stereotypically autistic monologue about something nobody wants to hear about. A common problem I was having, even though there were a few who didn't seem to mind. The other was being able to escalate sexually, but the parts that were important were the bits after she was attracted, because I wasn't interested in the ideal of making someone attracted who wasn't. I now believe you cannot do that. But it helped, especially when it was time for me to lost my virginity.

 

Reading that stuff hasn't changed me a bit. I was an info-junkie as a kid, I'm the same now. PUA is simply info to me. Just like reading computer sound science books helped me get better at making rap beats to sell. It's all just a small figment in the grand scheme, just used to help me learn little subtle things that I was failing at.

[Imajerk17]

I feel the need to comment about this once again, especially with all the recent threads on here from guys on how attraction works for women.

 

In my opinion, PUA makes two big mistakes

 

(1) Assuming that every time a girl doesn't like you, it's an attraction problem. That is actually usually true for a lot of Nice Guys entering into the Community. But once you get to a certain point, it often is not true. I mean, for any one guy, there are plenty of women who will never be into him, but a reason why she doesn't seem to want to go out with you again could be that it doesn't seem that you are that into her. Or she doesn't trust you.

 

And PUAs don't even get the whole attraction thing right. Which leads to the next big mistake.

 

(2) Assuming that attraction is all about how cool you come across. Women go by their feelings. They feel attraction for a man due to how a guy makes them feel. Having a life full of interesting hobbies is awesome. Having some smooth funny things to say especially early on is great. Knowing how to banter and hold back at the beginning is important. But you need some of this and not much more. See for many women, attraction is not about being The World's Most Interesting Man as it is about being a cool enough guy who is interested enough in her. Women are very concerned for their safety (emotional and physical) and are turned on by a man who makes her feel safe.

 

To this end, the state of the Men's Community these days is changing. The idea is less about teaching superslick PUA skills and more about men (some of whom are in happy marriages btw) teaching guys about what are attractive masculine traits and how women really work. (Over-generalization Police: Not all women, but how many women work. You do have to admit that many discussions even here on LS tend to break down along gender lines.)

 

And janesays and the other women on here: I get why women dislike PUA, but I do wish you would have a bit of understanding as to why a guy would seek out dating help and how he can change his ways to have more success with women. It is on us to initiate 90% of the time. Your gender also can be hard for us to figure out sometimes. My experience is that many women go by "chemistry"--something we have a hard time defining but also something that many good-looking guys who have a lot going for them fail to make women feel near 100%. These guys want to figure out what they are doing wrong so that they get their phone calls returned after a first date. Also, many women--not necessarily you, but many women--don't always say what you mean--and you will throw tests and smoke screens as a self-protection mechanism. I see it all the time reading the threads written by the women asking for advice and actually describing their own dating situations.

 

Anyway, that is my take...

Edited November 9, 2012 by Imajerk17

[Prometheus Pyrphoros]

PUA is bull.

 

You either have it or you don't.

 

Very handsome = you're in.

 

Below = manual labor.

 

All there is to it.

[verhrzn]

I feel the need to comment about this once again, especially with all the recent threads on here from guys on how attraction works for women.

 

In my opinion, PUA makes two big mistakes

 

(1) Assuming that every time a girl doesn't like you, it's an attraction problem. That is actually usually true for a lot of Nice Guys entering into the Community. But once you get to a certain point, it often is not true. I mean, for any one guy, there are plenty of women who will never be into him, but a reason why she doesn't seem to want to go out with you again could be that it doesn't seem that you are that into her. Or she doesn't trust you.

 

And PUAs don't even get the whole attraction thing right. Which leads to the next big mistake.

 

(2) Assuming that attraction is all about how cool you come across. Women go by their feelings. They feel attraction for a man due to how a guy makes them feel. Having a life full of interesting hobbies is awesome. Having some smooth funny things to say especially early on is great. Knowing how to banter and hold back at the beginning is important. But you need some of this and not much more. See for many women, attraction is not about being The World's Most Interesting Man as it is about being a cool enough guy who is interested enough in her. Women are very concerned for their safety (emotional and physical) and are turned on by a man who makes her feel safe.

 

To this end, the state of the Men's Community these days is changing. The idea is less about teaching superslick PUA skills and more about men (some of whom are in happy marriages btw) teaching guys about what are attractive masculine traits and how women really work. (Over-generalization Police: Not all women, but how many women work. You do have to admit that many discussions even here on LS tend to break down along gender lines.)

 

And janesays and the other women on here: I get why women dislike PUA, but I do wish you would have a bit of understanding as to why a guy would seek out dating help and how he can change his ways to have more success with women. It is on us to initiate 90% of the time. Your gender also can be hard for us to figure out sometimes. My experience is that many women go by "chemistry"--something we have a hard time defining but also something that many good-looking guys who have a lot going for them fail to make women feel near 100%. These guys want to figure out what they are doing wrong so that they get their phone calls returned after a first date. Also, many women--not necessarily you, but many women--don't always say what you mean--and you will throw tests and smoke screens as a self-protection mechanism. I see it all the time reading the threads written by the women asking for advice and actually describing their own dating situations.

 

Anyway, that is my take...

 

Really like how you state numbers 1 and 2. That is similar to my experiences.

 

For me myself, I don't mind guys looking for dating advice. I have myself suggested Dr. Nerdlove, who dabbled in PUA himself back in the day. He and ThaWhalogian seem to have found similar paths... they gleamed a few things from PUA, and using those as a springboard, found their own way.

 

I myself read relationship articles and books, some out of anthropological curiosity and some because they might offer decent advice. I see absolutely nothing wrong with guys doing the same.

 

What rubs me VERY much the wrong way is that PUA is so focused on women.

 

All right, I know that sounds weird. Stick with me. I have read thousands of dating articles geared towards women; online, in books, in magazines. The huge, overwhelming majority of them focus on the woman. A lot of them seem to treat "attracting the man" as beside the point. It's all about the woman's journey to being More.... It seems to have very little to do with attracting "men" and more to do with just being an attractive person (to men and women.)

 

I'll put it another way. A lot of the advice given in dating articles to women, could be used to attract friends of the same sex. The dating advice is all about the woman and how she is failing/missing being a healthy and balanced individual.

 

Now contrast that with the dating advice given by PUA (which still has the market cornered on dating advice to men.) I've read a lot of those books as well (though I have not taken any classes.) While the advice sometimes includes self-improvement, it's almost always about the woman. Female psychology, female behavior, what attracts women, how to cause attraction IN women, etc.

 

When reading PUA material, I ask myself if this same material could be used to attract male friends. The answer for most of the material is "No."

 

Why is that? Because PUA isn't teaching guys to be an attractive person, it's teaching them how to be an attractive "male." But the idea of how to be "male" is built on a beach of binary assumptions about sex. Men do THIS, women do THAT.

 

It turns women into a giant hive-mind. It confirms its subjects to narrow definitions of what it means to be a man. And the farther away from that definition, the more you are going to struggle.... and you are going to struggle because of the assumption that men must act in this specific way.

 

When you're an attractive person, you make it less about what other people like, and more about yourself. You don't need to worry about what "attracts" other people, because by focusing on how you can be healthy and self-loving, it will automatically attract people to you.

 

PUA is artificial, in that it deals with the OUTER behavior without really tackling the INTERNAL issues. PUA guys continue to be caught in gender binds. They continue to "work on their game," which is all about external behaviors (or internal motivations than manifest as external behaviors.)

 

I can sit in my house, alone in my living room, and work on "getting better at dating" all by myself, because I don't need anyone else to learn how to not be needy/how to develop interests/how to be comfortable with myself. Heck, a lot of female dating advice, I hardly ever need anyone around!

 

But with PUA, you have to be around other people to see if it's working. You need other people to try out techniques on, even things like "Inner Game."

 

I dislike PUA because its artificial, and IMO focuses on the wrong things... and by focusing on the wrong things, it's just going to leave guys even more frustrated. I don't think it's a coincidence that as PUA has risen in popularity, we have actually seen even MORE disenchanted guys struggling with dating.

[dasein]

It turns women into a giant hive-mind.

 

No, it turns the first interactions with strangers, people one doesn't know, into more comfortable, less stressful interactions...with strangers whom one doesn't know thing 1 about. Repeated for emphasis.

 

You frequently confuse this point. Meeting strangers can be reduced to a process with specific steps. Then as the interaction continues, the process becomes less standard and more custom, leading to engaging the person in their individuality. If there were a PUA technique that were purely mechanical throughout, it wouldn't work, wouldn't sell. This is how meeting anyone works. It also happens to be the focus of the problem many men have that attracts them to PUA, the initial approach of a strange woman.

 

As the strangeness decreases, the personalization increases. There is no human interaction that can be successfully reduced to a flow chart, other than initially.

[verhrzn]

No, it turns the first interactions with strangers, people one doesn't know, into more comfortable, less stressful interactions...with strangers whom one doesn't know thing 1 about. Repeated for emphasis.

 

You frequently confuse this point. Meeting strangers can be reduced to a process with specific steps. Then as the interaction continues, the process becomes less standard and more custom, leading to engaging the person in their individuality. If there were a PUA technique that were purely mechanical throughout, it wouldn't work, wouldn't sell. This is how meeting anyone works. It also happens to be the focus of the problem many men have that attracts them to PUA, the initial approach of a strange woman.

 

As the strangeness decreases, the personalization increases. There is no human interaction that can be successfully reduced to a flow chart, other than initially.

 

But it's approaching the stranger based entirely on their gender. If they're a woman, act like this. If they're a man, act like this.

 

If PUA espouses using two different approaches/techniques if you're approaching a man based on a woman, then the approach is based entirely on someone's sex.

 

That's what I mean by hive-mind.... you assume that because the stranger is a woman, she'll respond to A, B and C. Strange women should not be seen as as different than strange men. So why is PUA treating women as if they're somehow different from men? How is treating meeting a stranger who is a woman any different than treating meeting a male stranger?

 

If the flow chart is based on sex, it is still reducing women down to their sex.

[Janesays]

Exactly, V. I have no problem with anyone asking for dating advice. I just take issue with PUA, in particular, because it's less about meeting someone you could fall in love with and be compatible with.....but more about proving to "women" that you're "Cool" and "high value" and "alpha." The result isn't honest, sincere, love. Because if the only reason a woman is interested in you is you somehow convinced her that you have oh so many options and are therefore in high demand, then she really doesn't like you. Men NEED to understand that PUA makes them into PRODUCTS, not MEN. If she wants your attention simply because she wants what other women don't have, you hold no value to her outside of a new cellphone or Ipad. She'll drop you in a second when the next model comes out.

 

Is this the type of relationship men are after? Well, that depends. For some men, yeah. Who cares, right? The only reason they're in it is for the sex, so who cares if the woman doesn't really 'Know' them and only connects with them on the most superficial of levels.

 

But if you want love, real, honest, pure love....that you can't ACT ever. You HAVE to let someone know you. You have to be vulnerable. You have to face down rejection. You have to be OK with failure. Because how can anyone possibly love you if they don't know who you really are? If what you want is love, which is probably one of the greatest feelings in the world, you're going to have to decide it's worth the risk. You're going to have to leap. And always remember that you don't NEED the whole world to love you, you only need ONE woman to love you.

 

My problem with PUA is it tends to turn people (men in woman alike) into status symbols. Possessions. Pretty things to acquire, use, and discard. And that just makes me sad because I feel like those who view others that way will ultimately leave them with sad, lonely and empty existences.

 

I'm all for becoming a better person just so long as you remember that others are people too.

[Goldenbrwn]

I think this stuff scares women and elicits such a negative reaction because it does work in many instances.

 

Whats more scary than finding out you are instinctively attracted to qualities that are bad for you?

 

Even among guys who don't know what pua stuff is everyone is familiar with the concept that many guys adapt to dating by not treating women as well and that "nice guys" will probably have a lot of trouble with women.

 

Hard to believe the idea just came out of no where and became so wide spread with no basis in reality.

[TheBigQuestion]

But it's approaching the stranger based entirely on their gender. If they're a woman, act like this. If they're a man, act like this.

 

If PUA espouses using two different approaches/techniques if you're approaching a man based on a woman, then the approach is based entirely on someone's sex.

 

That's what I mean by hive-mind.... you assume that because the stranger is a woman, she'll respond to A, B and C. Strange women should not be seen as as different than strange men. So why is PUA treating women as if they're somehow different from men? How is treating meeting a stranger who is a woman any different than treating meeting a male stranger?

 

If the flow chart is based on sex, it is still reducing women down to their sex.

 

Of course PUA talks about how to do initial approaches based on gender. It's different than trying to attract same-sex friends because there is a component of sexual and physical attraction.

[verhrzn]

Exactly, V. I have no problem with anyone asking for dating advice. I just take issue with PUA, in particular, because it's less about meeting someone you could fall in love with and be compatible with.....but more about proving to "women" that you're "Cool" and "high value" and "alpha." The result isn't honest, sincere, love. Because if the only reason a woman is interested in you is you somehow convinced her that you have oh so many options and are therefore in high demand, then she really doesn't like you. Men NEED to understand that PUA makes them into PRODUCTS, not MEN. If she wants your attention simply because she wants what other women don't have, you hold no value to her outside of a new cellphone or Ipad. She'll drop you in a second when the next model comes out.

 

Is this the type of relationship men are after? Well, that depends. For some men, yeah. Who cares, right? The only reason they're in it is for the sex, so who cares if the woman doesn't really 'Know' them and only connects with them on the most superficial of levels.

 

But if you want love, real, honest, pure love....that you can't ACT ever. You HAVE to let someone know you. You have to be vulnerable. You have to face down rejection. You have to be OK with failure. Because how can anyone possibly love you if they don't know who you really are? If what you want is love, which is probably one of the greatest feelings in the world, you're going to have to decide it's worth the risk. You're going to have to leap. And always remember that you don't NEED the whole world to love you, you only need ONE woman to love you.

 

My problem with PUA is it tends to turn people (men in woman alike) into status symbols. Possessions. Pretty things to acquire, use, and discard. And that just makes me sad because I feel like those who view others that way will ultimately leave them with sad, lonely and empty existences.

 

I'm all for becoming a better person just so long as you remember that others are people too.

 

 

I think it also does a weird little mind-trick.

 

Making yourself into a product.... molding yourself into the narrow definition of what a "man" is... DOES work on some women. I argued this earlier in the thread... that the venues where PUA seems to succeed the most often are those crammed with the types of women who do respond to that sort of thing. There are superficial women. No argument from me there.

 

So you succeed with this type of woman. But the very same techniques that make you succeed with one type of woman make you invisible to the other. I have no interest in overly masculine men. I have no interest in those venues.

 

But because your dating guru has told you these techniques work for "women," you start assuming that the type of woman you are succeeding with is ALL women. That all women are shallow, that all women just require men to be hyper-masculine products.

 

So let's say you got into PUA for general dating advice. You don't want to be like Mystery, you don't want to be a player. You were hoping to just pick up some tips and then essentially go back to being who you were.

 

But the only way you succeed is by being like Mystery (because PUA only works on women who like Mystery-like men.) That means if you want to succeed with women, you HAVE to be like this. According to PUA, you have to be like this in order to succeed. You've been brainwashed by success to assume that all women are the same (bitch-shield carrying snobs who only open their legs for Alphas.)

 

Isn't that thoroughly depressing? This false idea that you can never be yourself, and the only women in the world confirm your very worse suspicions of the female side of the human race?

 

Is it any wonder you often see guys turn more misogynistic and bitter after engaging in PUA? I'd be bitter, too, if I thought I could never be myself in looks OR personality, and the very best I could hope to attract were shallow man-whores. (I am bitter enough feeling I can't be myself in terms of looks, but at least I get to maintain my own identity.)

 

Yes, men may succeed with PUA. But they only succeed in specific ways. And at what cost? At what cost do they succeed?

 

PUA has been around for at least a decade. Yet are we seeing more marriages? Less divorces? Are we seeing these PUA guys develop healthy, long-term relationships?

 

I've haunted a few PUA boards, and it seems a long-term relationship rarely occurs. Even here on LS, those who espouse PUA are not married, or in decade-long partnerships.... or even particularly happy.

[TheBigQuestion]

Exactly, V. I have no problem with anyone asking for dating advice. I just take issue with PUA, in particular, because it's less about meeting someone you could fall in love with and be compatible with.....but more about proving to "women" that you're "Cool" and "high value" and "alpha." The result isn't honest, sincere, love. Because if the only reason a woman is interested in you is you somehow convinced her that you have oh so many options and are therefore in high demand, then she really doesn't like you. Men NEED to understand that PUA makes them into PRODUCTS, not MEN. If she wants your attention simply because she wants what other women don't have, you hold no value to her outside of a new cellphone or Ipad. She'll drop you in a second when the next model comes out.

 

Is this the type of relationship men are after? Well, that depends. For some men, yeah. Who cares, right? The only reason they're in it is for the sex, so who cares if the woman doesn't really 'Know' them and only connects with them on the most superficial of levels.

 

But if you want love, real, honest, pure love....that you can't ACT ever. You HAVE to let someone know you. You have to be vulnerable. You have to face down rejection. You have to be OK with failure. Because how can anyone possibly love you if they don't know who you really are? If what you want is love, which is probably one of the greatest feelings in the world, you're going to have to decide it's worth the risk. You're going to have to leap. And always remember that you don't NEED the whole world to love you, you only need ONE woman to love you.

 

My problem with PUA is it tends to turn people (men in woman alike) into status symbols. Possessions. Pretty things to acquire, use, and discard. And that just makes me sad because I feel like those who view others that way will ultimately leave them with sad, lonely and empty existences.

 

I'm all for becoming a better person just so long as you remember that others are people too.

 

PUA is about being able to meet more women and instructing men on how to not screw it up. The end goals for which the "tactics" are used is usually entirely up to the man who is reading and utilizing PUA. For many men, they have no shot at all of finding that real, honest, true, deep love that you're talking about because they continuously make mistakes in the initial phases of attraction with women. Bad posture, awkward body language, stuttering, boring conversation, a disheveled appearance, not having the balls to ask women out, not having the balls to escalate physically when the time is right (whenever that may be depending on the situation). These are mistakes that have been corrected by PUA for many, many men. Prior to PUA, there was very little dating advice that was available to men that wasn't of the same variety that you can get from Mom.

 

Again, your responses betray either an inability or refusal to accept the variety and breadth of literature and philosophies that fall under the "PUA" moniker, the men who read it, and the reasons for which they seek it out in the first place. You have your bias against it, and nothing that anyone says here is going to make you budge, no matter how well-reasoned and earnestly the viewpoint is presented.

[verhrzn]

Of course PUA talks about how to do initial approaches based on gender. It's different than trying to attract same-sex friends because there is a component of sexual and physical attraction.

 

See, that's where I utterly disagree.

 

Attraction is attraction, initially. When I am looking for same-sex friends, I am still attracting them. I am still intriguing them with my person. The way I talk, the way I laugh. People are attracted to me, and I can then either turn that initial attraction to sexual or platonic.

 

I've done a lot of approaching in my days, but I've never felt nervous about it. Why? Because I don't see the interaction with the heavy implication of "sexual/physical." I see it as person just talking to another person.

 

Just because the stranger is a girl does not mean something sexual or physical is going to come out of it. By trying to cater your approach so it has an emphasis of sexual/physical (JUST because she's female), you're already creating a much higher expectation of yourself and her.

 

Attracting a mate is NOT different than attracting a new friend. The same things that friends would find attractive, is what potential mates find attractive. And the stranger is NOT a potential mate just because she's female. It's much safer-and easier-to start with friendly contact and work from there.

[ThaWholigan]

Exactly, V. I have no problem with anyone asking for dating advice. I just take issue with PUA, in particular, because it's less about meeting someone you could fall in love with and be compatible with.....but more about proving to "women" that you're "Cool" and "high value" and "alpha." The result isn't honest, sincere, love. Because if the only reason a woman is interested in you is you somehow convinced her that you have oh so many options and are therefore in high demand, then she really doesn't like you. Men NEED to understand that PUA makes them into PRODUCTS, not MEN. If she wants your attention simply because she wants what other women don't have, you hold no value to her outside of a new cellphone or Ipad. She'll drop you in a second when the next model comes out.

 

Is this the type of relationship men are after? Well, that depends. For some men, yeah. Who cares, right? The only reason they're in it is for the sex, so who cares if the woman doesn't really 'Know' them and only connects with them on the most superficial of levels.

 

But if you want love, real, honest, pure love....that you can't ACT ever. You HAVE to let someone know you. You have to be vulnerable. You have to face down rejection. You have to be OK with failure. Because how can anyone possibly love you if they don't know who you really are? If what you want is love, which is probably one of the greatest feelings in the world, you're going to have to decide it's worth the risk. You're going to have to leap. And always remember that you don't NEED the whole world to love you, you only need ONE woman to love you.

 

My problem with PUA is it tends to turn people (men in woman alike) into status symbols. Possessions. Pretty things to acquire, use, and discard. And that just makes me sad because I feel like those who view others that way will ultimately leave them with sad, lonely and empty existences.

 

I'm all for becoming a better person just so long as you remember that others are people too.

 

I personally believe that this depends on the man.

 

Not to boost myself up here, but I am smart. I'm not a super genius like sometimes people claim me to be, but at the very least I am smart. At least enough to know how to pursue what I'm looking for. I also have no desire for the kind of life that most PUAs espouse, and indeed a lot of guys do go to PUA to learn to "bang lots of hot chicks". I've never really been into the idea of going around sexing half of London and beyond.

 

It also depends on the product. I remember earlier this year, I was looking for PUA stuff to download to help me, and one of the ones I came across was a program called NSA by Mehow, which was specifically geared towards being able to convince girls to be in some kind of harem with you, like having more than one girlfriend. It was when I saw this when I started to really think about whether I was going the right direction with PUA. I was doing fine with simple stuff like Carlos Xuma's work, Josh Pellicer's books and a couple of other stuff that was helping me. But some of the other stuff that I was coming across I thought were excessive.

 

The better products that resonated with me more, were the ones that were geared towards becoming more of a whole person. And yes, it did focus more on an Alpha Male character, but I'm not stupid enough to completely define my masculinity by it. I am an individual by nature, and I have set characteristics that I cannot rid myself of. The things that I could and should change, sure. The ones I can't need more of a positive channel.

 

In essence, I think that PUA is a great help when it comes to approaching at first. There is even a positive aspect to the routines even. In the sense that it actually gives a guy the balls to talk to a woman! Once he runs a few routines, he can actually discard them once he can actually go up to a woman and talk to her in a way that truly reflects the character he is. At least that was my interpretation of it.

 

So having said that, I think that the men who allow themselves to become a product are those guys who, having actually gone through a lot of rejection, have allowed their identity to be eroded, thus able to be molded into this character that doesn't reflect them.

 

I think it also does a weird little mind-trick.

 

Making yourself into a product.... molding yourself into the narrow definition of what a "man" is... DOES work on some women. I argued this earlier in the thread... that the venues where PUA seems to succeed the most often are those crammed with the types of women who do respond to that sort of thing. There are superficial women. No argument from me there.

 

So you succeed with this type of woman. But the very same techniques that make you succeed with one type of woman make you invisible to the other. I have no interest in overly masculine men. I have no interest in those venues.

 

But because your dating guru has told you these techniques work for "women," you start assuming that the type of woman you are succeeding with is ALL women. That all women are shallow, that all women just require men to be hyper-masculine products.

 

So let's say you got into PUA for general dating advice. You don't want to be like Mystery, you don't want to be a player. You were hoping to just pick up some tips and then essentially go back to being who you were.

 

But the only way you succeed is by being like Mystery (because PUA only works on women who like Mystery-like men.) That means if you want to succeed with women, you HAVE to be like this. According to PUA, you have to be like this in order to succeed. You've been brainwashed by success to assume that all women are the same (bitch-shield carrying snobs who only open their legs for Alphas.)

 

Isn't that thoroughly depressing? This false idea that you can never be yourself, and the only women in the world confirm your very worse suspicions of the female side of the human race?

 

Is it any wonder you often see guys turn more misogynistic and bitter after engaging in PUA? I'd be bitter, too, if I thought I could never be myself in looks OR personality, and the very best I could hope to attract were shallow man-whores. (I am bitter enough feeling I can't be myself in terms of looks, but at least I get to maintain my own identity.)

 

Yes, men may succeed with PUA. But they only succeed in specific ways. And at what cost? At what cost do they succeed?

 

PUA has been around for at least a decade. Yet are we seeing more marriages? Less divorces? Are we seeing these PUA guys develop healthy, long-term relationships?

 

I've haunted a few PUA boards, and it seems a long-term relationship rarely occurs. Even here on LS, those who espouse PUA are not married, or in decade-long partnerships.... or even particularly happy.

 

This assumes that all of PUA is taught like Mystery Method. As I have gone over in this thread, not all PUA is like that, and some of the stuff that is actually good does get lumped in with the PUA label and becomes synonymous with Mystery and other stuff.

 

It also assumes that it targets the same women - which I won't lie, a lot of it does. I started to realize this when I downloaded Gamblers program. I suspect Gambler does well because he's actually a very good looking guy (google him). Nonetheless, the touching cues were still good info, if a little telegraphed and mechanical.

 

I digress - I think that there is truth to the claim that PUA does brainwash you into thinking that women are all into certain things, almost the same way that guys are brainwashed into thinking women only go for looks or some other thing that they don't have therefore fail. However, such is the broad nature of men's dating advice that there is much better material out there that doesn't attempt to mold you into another person, but more to discover yourself, or even create yourself.

 

Perhaps I am lucky. I don't know.