I can believe it

[sinner]

I'm certainly not a "devil woman" with evil on my mind (points for naming the guy who sang that)

 

 

 

 

Santana? Evil Woman? I've not Googled it, so I may be wrong.

 

As for you, Spock, the fact that you're an unrepentant female philanderer does raise lots of storm flags. The traditional role for women in the affair narrative is as innocent/victim spouse or as a smitten OW who loves her MM more than life itself and has fallen prey to his lies, deceit and false promises that he'll leave his wife soon--just not now.

 

So women in these sordid tales are "victims" --not always innocent ones, but victims nonetheless.

 

You're not playing by the gender "victim" rules. You're not following the script. If you desire someone you strike--regardless of the guy's attachments. You're acting like a predatory male. That, I'm sure, bothers lots of folks-- the overwhelming majority of whom would tell you that you've got to change your evil ways.

[Pocky]

Every community needs a villain.

[sinner]

Every community needs a villain.

 

 

Well said, Pocky. Well said.

[kiababy]

...Electric Light Orchestra

[sinner]

.Electric Light Orchestra

 

Damn! Your right, kiababy.

[littleflowerpot]

Originally posted by sinner

I concede your point as valid, flowerpot. Excellent rejoinder.

 

well, i do what i can.

[littleflowerpot]

Originally posted by Mr Spock

The thing is littleflowerpot, is that I'm NOT generally a selfish person-and I'm certainly not out to hurt anyone. As was told to me by someone I consider wise, if I connect with someone, I'm going to pursue that no matter what the status of said person is.

 

You seem to want me to have some kind of epiphany-it's not going to happen. I don't have guilt for the wife and kids because they're not hurting. There is a tremendous POTENTIAL for it, yes. Not once was I asking for pats on the back. You may get the feeling I think it's cute being the bad girl-I'm just ME. I don't posture, or pretend. As for self involvement, it would be fallacy for anyone to think their world doesn't revolve around themselves.

 

 

I'd also like to point out once more that the term wife is incorrect. I'm certainly not a "devil woman" with evil on my mind (points for naming the guy who sang that) I am VERY sexually assertive, but I was not the initiator in this situation. You want me to admit that what I'm doing is wrong, and ask for forgiveness. Today, I have no regrets. I have no problems admitting affairs are generally wrong, and that sneaking around behind your SO's back is hurtful. There is a difference between feeling guilt for hurting others and feeling guilt for one's actions, even when the two are directly related.

 

sorry, i gotta call you on bull**** when i see it 'cause, well, that's who I am.

 

i don't care if you have a sudden flash of insight. i'm just calling it as i see it. you say you are generally not a selfish person but that if you connect with someone you're just gonna pursue it. i think that is a person lacking in character. the girlfriend (and mother of his kids - yes, not married is a little different but it's counter-balanced by her being the mom of his kids) and the kids may not be hurting right now but there is a lot of potential for that and you don't give a rat's ass about it. that says more about you than anything else.

 

yes, i still think you have a love affair with thinking yourself the sexy bad girl. someone else mentioned it seemed to them you were identifying with a sex in the city character and although i won't go that far, i do know what she meant. i think you think it's very 2000's-smart-agressive-chick-in-the-city. i understand that. women have to be smarter now and we have to be assertive or we get trampled. but that's not the same thing as carrying on our lives thinking we have complete impunity to do what we want as long as it's what we want. i understand being ballsy but not in being completely ****ing selfish.

 

and it makes no difference who the initiator was because that makes no difference in the possible outcome for the people that could get hurt the worst.

 

maybe this is wrong but for me if only you had told us (and meant it) that you fell in love with the guy, that would be the only thing that might make me more understanding. i mean i have a great connection with my therapist but i'm not gonna do her. and, yes, at times we all are a bit self-absorbed but i meant that i think you are being a little more than a bit more self-absorbed than what is usual.

 

you said, "There is a difference between feeling guilt for hurting others and feeling guilt for one's actions, even when the two are directly related." this is confusing. can you explain this a bit more?

 

pardon me for being all confrontational and bitchy but this just bothers me for some reason. just as you won't (and shouldn't) back down from what you believe, neither can or will i. that's just how it is. but healthy debate is good, isn't it?

[littleflowerpot]

ugh! i'm gonna try to let this be the last time i talk about this. i'm letting it bug me too much (i'm getting really pissed at my dad all over again for when he did the same thing but it was called "men being men.").

 

i have no doubt, spock, that you are a good person and nothing i say about it will 'cause you to reflect and see it any differently and you're gonna keep doing what you're doing 'cause you want to. you sure as hell don't have to explain it to me or anyone else.

 

i just can't identify with you. this coming from an OW herself.

[Mr Spock]

Actually, I was thinking of "Devil Woman" by cliff richards....

 

I SWEAR I've only seen three episodes of that show. I only picked her because I thought that was the funniest one, which she is.

 

I'm glad you don't identify with me. I don't identify with many of the OW on this forum.

 

 

maybe this is wrong but for me if only you had told us (and meant it) that you fell in love with the guy, that would be the only thing that might make me more understanding. i mean i have a great connection with my therapist but i'm not gonna do her. and, yes, at times we all are a bit self-absorbed but i meant that i think you are being a little more than a bit more self-absorbed than what is usual.

 

I knew you'd bring this up. Love isn't any more of an excuse than anything else, and the word "love" is used far too often on this site. What I won't ingore is the POTENTIAL for deeper feelings. A connection. It's funny how if I had said "I've fallen in love again!!" I'd have your understanding a bit more perhaps.

 

 

 

you said, "There is a difference between feeling guilt for hurting others and feeling guilt for one's actions, even when the two are directly related." this is confusing. can you explain this a bit more?

 

I don't feel guilty for sleeping with him. I'm still incredibly attracted to him. Will I sleep with him again? Who knows. It's probably not the best idea at the moment.

[littleflowerpot]

Originally posted by Mr Spock

Actually, I was thinking of "Devil Woman" by cliff richards....

 

I SWEAR I've only seen three episodes of that show. I only picked her because I thought that was the funniest one, which she is.

 

I'm glad you don't identify with me. I don't identify with many of the OW on this forum.

 

 

 

 

I knew you'd bring this up. Love isn't any more of an excuse than anything else, and the word "love" is used far too often on this site. What I won't ingore is the POTENTIAL for deeper feelings. A connection. It's funny how if I had said "I've fallen in love again!!" I'd have your understanding a bit more perhaps.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't feel guilty for sleeping with him. I'm still incredibly attracted to him. Will I sleep with him again? Who knows. It's probably not the best idea at the moment.

 

okay, can't help myself. of COURSE you knew i'd bring it up because it's relevant!

 

yes, people bring up "love" too often. i didn't say it made anything okay just that it made it a bit more understandable. and as for carrying on an affair for the POTENTIAL that it could lead to love, that's still a bunch of bollocks! it isn't love now. you could end it now and not be too emotionally wrapped up in it that you'd be suffering too much. and i can't see why on earth that you think it's funny that i'd understand more if you loved the guy than if you just have an affair with him because you like him a lot! it's a big difference, spock.

 

again, i never said it was a GOOD excuse to say "but i love him," but it's more understandable than saying "i just like it."

 

btw, samantha isn't the funniest character. carrie is by far.

[Mr Spock]

Nah. Not if you don't like sarah jessica parker. But I digress.

 

I'm actually NOT having an affair littleflowerpot. Oh, I may be involved with one but I've made no committments of fidelity to anyone. I sensed a connection-emotional, physical, what have you-and instead of ignoring it I allowed it to continue. What's bollocks about it? How many marriages do you see on here that aren't love? How many relationships? Just because this one is illicit does not make it any less there. I'll have to see what happens from now...who knows. I may just end up walking away from it-before it's too late to do so.

[littleflowerpot]

"and as for carrying on an affair for the POTENTIAL that it could lead to love, that's still a bunch of bollocks!" i believe this is what i was talking about in regards to the "bollocks" thing. justifying what you're doing because it has the POTENTIAL to lead to love (your words - not mine) is ridiculous.

 

semantics shemantics:

 

af•fair ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-fâr)

n.

Something done or to be done; business.

affairs Transactions and other matters of professional or public business: affairs of state.

 

An occurrence, event, or matter: The senator's death was a tragic affair.

A social function.

An object or a contrivance: Their first car was a ramshackle affair.

A matter of personal concern.

affairs Personal business: get one's affairs in order.

A matter causing public scandal and controversy: the Dreyfus affair.

A romantic and sexual relationship, sometimes one of brief duration, between two people who are not married to each other.

 

 

 

according to the textbook definition, you are having an affair.

 

and let's agree to disagree because no amount of talk is gonna make me think you are being anything other than completely selfish. as i said before, i think it says a lot about you as a person.

[meanon]

littleflowerpot, you seem to think Spock should bear all the responsibility for his family and have hardly mentioned his responsibility. It is him who has made the committment to them, not Spock. Is it the age old expectation that women should be the keepers of chastity and virtue as men lack the will power?

[littleflowerpot]

Originally posted by meanon

littleflowerpot, you seem to think Spock should bear all the responsibility for his family and have hardly mentioned his responsibility. It is him who has made the committment to them, not Spock. Is it the age old expectation that women should be the keepers of chastity and virtue as men lack the will power?

 

i hardly know how you could come to that conclusion. of course, it's his responsibility. of course he is at fault. and i am a woman very in tune with my own sexuality so there is no way i'd expect women to be the keepers of chastity and virtue and all that rhetoric. i'm saying that she is not blameless. whether what he is doing is reprehensible or not has no bearing on what she is doing. she doesn't care about the guys kids. how can you even imply that is okay just because she's not the one with kids or an SO?

 

as you asked me those questions, please let me do the same to you. do you think she has no impunity in this situation? just because she's not the one in the committed relationship, is it okay then for her to be a partner in possibly hurting the kids just because she thinks it's fun now?

 

gimme a break.

[littleflowerpot]

btw, i hardly mentioned this guy's responsibility because he's not the one here talking about it.

[Mr Spock]

Whoever said it was OK? I'm just sharing. In my own way. I figured you'd talk about semantics-be aware that arguing the point of love not love is also semantics.

 

You think what you wish littleflowerpot-being in "Love" makes a person no less selfish.....I'm just here to hammer things out, in whatever direction they go.

[littleflowerpot]

Originally posted by Mr Spock

Whoever said it was OK? I'm just sharing. In my own way. I figured you'd talk about semantics-be aware that arguing the point of love not love is also semantics.

 

You think what you wish littleflowerpot-being in "Love" makes a person no less selfish.....I'm just here to hammer things out, in whatever direction they go.

 

uh uh...having an affair because you want to and it's fun and it just MIGHT turn into a love thing is a lot more callous but you just don't wanna admit it.

 

and what does "i'm just here to hammer things out, in whatever direction they go," mean? i tried to respond to that and i realized i don't know what you are saying.

 

you are tricky tricky.

[Mr Spock]

Oh I DO admit it ...what gets you the most I think is my lack of guilt and shame for sleeping with him. I enjoyed it too much to feel that way.

 

I'm not sure how all this is going to turn out-I'll see what this next week is like, in terms of hammering things out. Seeing what the guidlines of this is going to be, if any.

[littleflowerpot]

Originally posted by Mr Spock

Oh I DO admit it ...what gets you the most I think is my lack of guilt and shame for sleeping with him. I enjoyed it too much to feel that way.

 

I'm not sure how all this is going to turn out-I'll see what this next week is like, in terms of hammering things out. Seeing what the guidlines of this is going to be, if any.

 

do you really wanna know what bothers me the most? it's your lack of compassion for the other people involved and for such a shallow reason as it being enjoyable to have sex with him.

 

also, i think you are very capable of being a truly good person but you just aren't and for a relationship that is so lacking in depth of emotion. it seems such a small reason to take such a big risk as hurting his family over it. you aren't responsible for his behavior but you are responsible for yours. do you know what i mean? if i thought you were one of these chicks that just didn't give a damn about anyone but themselves then maybe it wouldn't be bugging me so much. it shouldn't bug me at all because i really don't know you but i just think i've seen you communicate before in ways that showed me you had a good heart. live up to it! not enough people in this world have care and compassion for others and we should. a world where no one gave a damn about anyone else is a doomed world.

[meanon]

i hardly know how you could come to that conclusion. of course, it's his responsibility. of course he is at fault. and i am a woman very in tune with my own sexuality so there is no way i'd expect women to be the keepers of chastity and virtue and all that rhetoric. i'm saying that she is not blameless. whether what he is doing is reprehensible or not has no bearing on what she is doing. she doesn't care about the guys kids. how can you even imply that is okay just because she's not the one with kids or an SO?

 

as you asked me those questions, please let me do the same to you. do you think she has no impunity in this situation? just because she's not the one in the committed relationship, is it okay then for her to be a partner in possibly hurting the kids just because she thinks it's fun now?

 

gimme a break.

 

LOL. I didn't mean to give you a hard time . I read your previous posts and didn't feel it was appropriate to question you. When you seemed disturbed by the strength of your reaction and ready for debate I thought it would be OK to probe. It's not our thread though - sorry if I got it wrong.

 

No Spock is not blameless. The degree of responsibility she bears is moderated, however, by the fact that he who bears the lion's share of the responsibility has judged it is a risk worth taking. We don't know why this is, as you say - he's not here. He may love Spock, be after a hedonistic rush, be seeking an outlet to enable him to stay in dysfunctional relationship for the sake of his kids, who knows? If it's not love, it may well have been someone other than Spock, had she not been available (sorry, Spock ).

 

None of this makes it OK but what we don't know know may change our outlook. I don't think Spock bears no impunity but I'll admit that I find the degree of certainty that she is selfish unsettling. Personally I feel I do not have sufficient information to make such a judgement, especially since Spock's attitude to the affair has changed somewhat twice within the thread. Even if she is selfish, I find the strength of reaction (generally, not just yours) telling. I've seen epic threads before in response to selfish women or women who put their needs before others. I've never seen them in response to selfish men who attract disapproval but rarely to the same degree. Maybe that's because they don't post. It echos what I see in attitudes in society. I accept these are not your views, littleflowerpot. Peace!

[Mr Spock]

If it's not love, it may well have been someone other than Spock, had she not been available (sorry, Spock ).

 

Oh Meanon, the things I will tell you when I'm ready to.....

[sinner]

I find the strength of reaction (generally, not just yours) telling. I've seen epic threads before in response to selfish women or women who put their needs before others. I've never seen them in response to selfish men who attract disapproval but rarely to the same degree. Maybe that's because they don't post. It echos what I see in attitudes in society.

 

 

 

I agree, meanon. We expect men to act as sexual predators. Not so with women. Women are held to higher , more stringent, ethical (UNSELFISH) conduct. From the censorious tone of many posts on this Thread, including repeated calls that Spock seek therapy, I infer that people get exceptionally riled when a woman sexually steals (or borrows) another woman's husband and does so without apology. That type of behavior, and unrepentant attitude, is outside the gender norm. Hence the calls for treatment with the implication that Spock is ill. Which she is not.

 

I continue to believe that if Spock was a man, and sleeping with other mens' wives, people would call him a cad and immoral but the tone would be less punitive and there would be no suggestion that this guy was ill and in need of therapy. People would just tell him to keep it zipped.

 

Boys will be boys, but woe to the girl who will be one, too.

[EnigmaXOXO]

I continue to believe that if Spock was a man, and sleeping with other mens' wives, people would call him a cad and immoral but the tone would be less punitive and there would be no suggestion that this guy was ill and in need of therapy. People would just tell him to keep it zipped.

 

Bullsh*t. (again)

 

I challenge you to show me one instance (even in your case) where someone hasn't suggested to a philandering man that he seek some professional help in sorting out his marital woes. The problem is that "ego" prevents most men from admitting they might have a problem which would benefit from some outside intervention. After all, sexually assertive men are "lauded"…isn't that your personal perception??

 

I ABSOLUTELY AGREE that there are gender bias double standards which exist and can not be ignored. Whether right or wrong. But sexual "assertiveness" is completely different than "marital infidelity." Whether the one committing adultery is male or female…there is no leniency in opinion regarding either gender. Except from those males who look to justify their affairs by the old saw horse: "boys will be boys" … or would rather engage in debates pitting "morality" against "hedonism" as a means to avoid personal accountability for the lack of self-control regarding their own actions.

 

Fortunately, those antiquated notions are quickly becoming the minority… as are the "good 'ol boys" who still try to perpetuate their Neanderthalistic ideas.

[EnigmaXOXO]

Spock, what I am most curious about is why and how you have become a married-man magnet. There has to be something about the way you present yourself (whether intentional or not) that tells them that you are open to these kinds of advances. Do these men travel in the same social circle?...Are they all employees where you work? Do you think it may have anything to do with the reputation you have inadvertently created for yourself??

 

I think it's wonderful that you take pride in your sexuality. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a sexy, vivacious and confidant woman. But my worry is that sexuality is ALL you are projecting about yourself. That is all fine and dandy if your self-worth is all wrapped up in how "desirable" the opposite sex finds you. But unless you portray some genuine "substance" or depth of character; unless you demand "respect" from yourself and those around you, none of these men will ever see the potential of the real human-being hiding behind the lusty façade.

 

Oh sure, they'll be HAPPY to take (or use) what you offer up for free. You'll attract hordes of desperate, embittered unhappily married men looking for validation and an ego boost by the droves. But you may find that single men, who are looking for something more permanent and "solid"…are avoiding you like the plague. If "sex" and a brief "connection" is ALL you want out of your romantic trysts, than that's exactly what you'll get! But these men will never respect you. They will never "love" you in the way you deserve to be loved, and they will never consider you someone worthy of dedicating the rest of their lives to. Men like to f*ck the "bad girls"…but they don't want to bring them home to the family, marry them, or raise children with them. Their sexual "openness" becomes a liability when one is seeking a loyal and stable partner…and few men would want to risk their own reputations by wedding the gal that all their buddies and work colleagues have already tapped.

 

I'd like to hear from any male (married or single) on this forum who might argue otherwise.

 

As unfair as these gender bias double-standards are…they still exist. You'll be hard pressed to remove it from the equation even in this day and age. Similarly, you can not remove "married" from the relationship equation no matter how much you "wish" it were so. Whether you are the married spouse, or the secret lover on the side, the MARRIGE is the nucleolus by which everyone else's lives revolve. You can't close your eyes and ignore its existence, or "wish" it away by declarations of emotional emancipation. Unlike "love" and "lust"…it is not just a fleeting emotion that dissolves on a whim every time we experience a bad day or a mood swing. It is REAL; it is tangible and survives even without "love" or "lust." To rely on fantasy or "wishful thinking"…to convince ourselves otherwise…can result in disastrous consequence. The loss of family. The loss of home. The loss of reputation with family, friends and children. The loss of security and financial stability.

 

You may be the best lay he's ever had. You may be the new caring confidant he can talk to because the other people in his life have grown weary of his whining. You may be the "fun" party girl he always wanted to hook up with when he was young, but was never "kool" enough to land. You may remind him of his youth…those player days gone by and stroke his fading male ego. But what man would gladly sacrifice all those things it took him a lifetime to earn so he could gallop off into the sunset with you? Particularly when you are already meeting all of his expectations without having any of your own.

 

I had a friend much like you, Spock. She was witty, intelligent, COMPULSIVE and portrayed to those around her an image of a woman who confidant and capable. She was a hoot to be around, I admit! I called her a friend for over 20 years. But as we grew up together, I watched something happen to Bridget. Inside, she was not as "confident" as she portrayed. She was a few pounds overweight, and in spite of her efforts to improve her outside appearance, she was never happy with her "outer" image.

 

She overcompensated for this by over exaggerating…even "lying" about her accomplishments and the people in her life. She could blow a story out of proportion like you wouldn't believe!! Over time, she began to believe her own lies, and in a desperate attempt to get attention…ANY kind of attention…she became a serial adulterous in spite of being married THREE times. If any man so much as "smiled" at her, she was all over him like a pizza at a weight-watchers convention. She took pride in bragging about how "she was able to think like a man…Love em and leave em." She would enter into one affair after another…one marriage after another…and was never, ever happy.

 

Eventually, she got so good at turning off her emotions that she became "hard" and uncaring. I watched the person I grew up with turn cold, calculating, dishonest and selfish. Incapable of expressing a genuine emotion or kind deed unless it served some benefit to her. She began to systematically make casualties of all the lives around her---work colleges, families, friends. It was all about "HER." In short, she became toxic to both herself and everyone around her. No sympathy, no empathy, a complete inability to see anyone or anything beyond "herself." She justified and made excuses for her behavior with as much imagination and flair as she used when reciting one of her "tall tales." Convinced, if SHE believed it, than so would everyone else. Until I finally convinced her to seek therapy, we were BOTH miserable!!

 

Live you life as you see fit, Spock. It's yours alone. But please, please don't be like my old friend and destroy whatever's left of the genuine person beneath in your desperate attempt to make a worthy place for yourself in this life. Hang onto your integrity, your values, your virtue, and your ability to FEEL (for others as well). It's the only thing of any real value in this life…the only memory that's left of you when you're gone…and the ONLY thing that makes you uniquely "human."

[kiababy]

I've been following this thread and I always read your posts with great interest - regarding your firend however, are you suggesting Spock is exaggerating or that she will end up being the type of person that tells tall tales? I believe her totally, in fact I think all of the OW on this forum are honest about their/our activities. We have no need to lie here, we're all anonymous. If I'm wrong let me know.