Why men are opting out of marriage

[nescafe1982]

You are certainly muddying up one point that you made.

 

" there are financial risks to getting married " and what you should have said is that the risk is ONLY for men. Women are risking absolutely nothing but their time and their hearts when they get married.

 

I thought about taking some time to respond to your post, because it is so dressed up in assumption, falsities, and more than a little blatant misogyny.

 

But then I read the following post by Janesays. And I think she nailed it more than I could hope to.

 

Divorce hurts the higher wage earner. And it is financially risky for both parties.

 

I didn't stutter. I meant it the way I said it. So no need to "correct" me.

[Woggle]

Any breadwinner is risking it in marriage but in family courts things are biased against fathers. Do people here really think it is fair that a father has to fight tooth and nail just to be able to be a father to their child. I saw it happen to my father. Denying that divorce and family courts are biased is like a white person denying that racial profiling exists. It's really easy to say when you will never have to be guilty until proven innocent in court no matter what the actual facts are.

[Woggle]

There is a huge difference between having "constant fear" and simply being prepared for any kind of situation. It is a wise choice for a woman to have her own income. I am not afraid of my husband becoming abusive, because I know that I can support myself and LEAVE if I have to.

 

Just because someone seems wonderful while they are dating, it doesn't mean that they will never change. I'm sure that spouses who have been cheated on, never thought that they would be in that position on their wedding day. People sometimes change in negative ways, especially once they get comfortable with someone. Money is power and sometimes power can corrupt. This is something that stay at home spouses don't like to admit.

 

I laugh at women who are naive enough to think that their marriages can never fail or their husbands would never do certain things to them. Not everyone is trustworthy, even if they might seem so initially.

 

Not everyone is trustworthy but you should be able to trust your spouse. If we had a kid and my wife wanted to stay home I would do it in a heartbeat even though for the most part I think men should avoid that role. She has more than earned my faith in her through her actions. I have really good instincts about people and I know she is for real.

[Iguanna]

There is a huge difference between having "constant fear" and simply being prepared for any kind of situation. It is a wise choice for a woman to have her own income. I am not afraid of my husband becoming abusive, because I know that I can support myself and LEAVE if I have to.

 

Just because someone seems wonderful while they are dating, it doesn't mean that they will never change. I'm sure that spouses who have been cheated on, never thought that they would be in that position on their wedding day. People sometimes change in negative ways, especially once they get comfortable with someone. Money is power and sometimes power can corrupt. This is something that stay at home spouses don't like to admit.

 

I laugh at women who are naive enough to think that their marriages can never fail or their husbands would never do certain things to them. Not everyone is trustworthy, even if they might seem so initially.

 

I'm sorry but I can't depend my whole life on the POSSIBILITY that my husband may one day cheat or leave or abuse me... If I am secure with my judgement and my opinion about the man I married then I can stay at home and raise my kids as I want it. I'm not saying being completely naive and unaware of possibilities in life but we have to be sure of ourselves and our choices and trust that things will go as planned. Cause at the end of the day if we don't trust our husband, what was the reason to marry him in the first place? If we don't have an honest relationship with him, if we are not sure he will tell us when there is a problem, if we are scared he'll cheat any minute, then why marry him? To have kids? To please our mom? To please others in general? These reasons are wrong and we should be very aware and careful about getting married with someone.

 

Yes you may call me naive and laugh at me but I can assure you that my husband to be will never cheat or abuse me, and if something changes in his feelings for me, he will tell me and we'll find a way together.

[Iguanna]

I trust but verify. Blind trust is ridiculous, especially since I have seen the darker side of human nature.

 

This is what you don't get from what I'm saying, it's not blind trust (= coming from nowhere, reasonless) cause he is the man I chose, the man I spent some years together, I've seen more or less everything there is to see from him, I will have no surprises unless a rock hits him on his head and his personality changes 180 degrees. This is how secure and sure I am for him. This is why I trust him and he trusts me. I can't spend my life being suspicious about him all the time in case (one in a million) he changes and does something bad. This way I will live unhappy all my life for one POSSIBILITY and that's nerve racking.

[Iguanna]

Haha Polyanna, haven't thought of her for years I wish I had an easy life, but sadly I didn't. I won't get into details. Trust me I'm not naive and I do know that things can change. I have just put so much effort and work on my relationship with this man that I don't allow myself to be THAT wrong about him. Also I am insecure for many things in life, I can't afford to be insecure for my relationship as well. We can only hope

[Eivuwan]

I think the thing to keep in mind is that even if the husband is perfect, he could die in an accident or something. It simply does not seem good to get to the point where one has no marketable skills to become financially independent when the need arises. What if the husband becomes unemployed?

[Woggle]

I trust but verify. Blind trust is ridiculous, especially since I have seen the darker side of human nature.

 

It takes a lot to gain but I really do feel I can trust her. Seven years and she has never given me any reason not to.

 

I guess I am also sick of having this guilty until proven innocent mentality towards women that I go to without even thinking about it. I want to be one of the rare ones to fully overcome the abuse in my youth and not let it define me anymore. I am most likely moving to a new place next year and with that I hope I bring a new mentality with me. I want to always see the world through that dark filter that was put on my by the abuse. It's much easier said than done but it's worth trying.

[DaisyLeigh1967]

Yes, so is reading posts incorrectly and then reacting based on your erroneous perception.

 

This is what I posted: "If a man wants a SAHM as a wife, he should look for someone who doesn't have career aspirations or education. Women who have high flying careers are often VERY unhappy as SAHMs. "

 

Where did I say that all SAHM's are stupid, unmotivated and uneducated? :confused:I specified that a SAHM who does not have education or career aspirations would likely be much happier in that role. Women who have had the experience of having a career and being independent often have difficulties shifting gears.

 

What you call "trust" is actually just being naive. Do you think marriages always last forever and people do not change? It is best to have some kind of income so that you can look after yourself if need be. Talk to any woman who is trapped in an abusive marriage because she has no marketable skills. It is a very simple and practical concept.

 

 

I work. Believe me, I will never ever be dependent upon a man ever again. My husband and I are still together, and things are going okay, but he used to lord his income over me. No woman should ever be without a means to support herself and any children.

 

I left and nearly divorced two years ago. I fully understand that marriages do not always last.

 

I am sorry if I took your post the wrong way. But there are many educated women who do become SAHMs and excell at it. I guess the way you worded it was not perceived in the way you meant. I am not perfect.

[Clockwork]

I have a theory, it isn't bullet proof but hear me out:

 

The "greatest generation" the WWII generation all got married in the 1940s and 1950s. Most of them stayed together. They almost all honoured the "until death do us part" vow. It wasn't easy, it wasn't perfect but in a generation that didn't go for the quick gratification like today, they worked on it and stuck it out.

 

That generation had the baby boomers. This is where it first started to go wrong. The boomers got married in the 1970s/early 1980s. For people who are 30 years old, this is your parents generation. Unlike their parents, the boomers don't have as many that will celebrate 50 years together. Many still will, but many got divorced as well. There was a lot of hurt, a lot of absent fathers, a lot of bitterness and my generation (1980s born) witnessed this.

 

Enter my generation and the ones that will follow. Our generation saw about half of our parents split up. Some of it was ugly. We have been skeptical about marriage. It is a "piece of paper" to some. Many of us have already been married - and divorced in under 5 years. Many of us just live together and choose not to go the whole way because our parents split up and we saw this. Many of us will never get married. A select few of us will hit our golden anniversary but not many.

 

Now my generation is having kids. I would say at least half of us - if not more - had kids out of wedlock. We never married our kids' father. We are in a bitter custody battle. We think the grass is greener on the other side. We see Kim Kardashian have a 72 day marriage and think that it's okay. The sacred institution of marriage is dead. Within three generations we killed it off. Far less than 50% of us will be with one spouse till death. Marriage is no longer a 50/50 scenario anymore, it is more like a 20/80 scenario. We've ruined it.

 

The main reason is we've lost trust with each other. We don't even trust ourselves anymore. We text each other and not talk to each other. We don't communicate and we are still skeptical about marriage. Why this happened, I don't know, but each generation has amplified the problems from the previous generation and made it worse. Welcome to 2013.

[Woggle]

My in laws are baby boomers who still don't seem to have gotten the memo that the sixties are over and they have one of the best marriages I ever seen. They are equal partners without making a fuss about being equal partners. It is just the way they are. My parents on the other hand are completely insane.

[Iguanna]

I agree that most of the times women were suffering silently tolerating every kind of things from their spouses but they didn't have any choice. But I would like also to add that sometimes in the modern age we are living women are too spoiled and they don't want to compromise with anything. They believe that, since they are equal with men, they don't have to tolerate even the little things, such as some habits that the man has that can be accepted if you are open to some compromise. These women has been raised by feminist mothers who have tolerated much themselves and they have convinced their daughters that they shouldn't tolerate anything in their lives. That's why we see marriages ending for idiotic sometimes reasons which could be solved if the woman was more open to logical compromise. If we ask old people how their marriage has survived, they will say "cause we loved each other and accepted each other's habits and crankiness". There is no relation in our lives in which we won't be asked to compromise even a little bit. Young women seem sometimes to have gone to the other side of feminism, where they think they are such goddesses and the world owes to them just cause they are young and pretty.

[Got it]

I have a theory, it isn't bullet proof but hear me out:

 

The "greatest generation" the WWII generation all got married in the 1940s and 1950s. Most of them stayed together. They almost all honoured the "until death do us part" vow. It wasn't easy, it wasn't perfect but in a generation that didn't go for the quick gratification like today, they worked on it and stuck it out.

 

That generation had the baby boomers. This is where it first started to go wrong. The boomers got married in the 1970s/early 1980s. For people who are 30 years old, this is your parents generation. Unlike their parents, the boomers don't have as many that will celebrate 50 years together. Many still will, but many got divorced as well. There was a lot of hurt, a lot of absent fathers, a lot of bitterness and my generation (1980s born) witnessed this.

 

Enter my generation and the ones that will follow. Our generation saw about half of our parents split up. Some of it was ugly. We have been skeptical about marriage. It is a "piece of paper" to some. Many of us have already been married - and divorced in under 5 years. Many of us just live together and choose not to go the whole way because our parents split up and we saw this. Many of us will never get married. A select few of us will hit our golden anniversary but not many.

 

Now my generation is having kids. I would say at least half of us - if not more - had kids out of wedlock. We never married our kids' father. We are in a bitter custody battle. We think the grass is greener on the other side. We see Kim Kardashian have a 72 day marriage and think that it's okay. The sacred institution of marriage is dead. Within three generations we killed it off. Far less than 50% of us will be with one spouse till death. Marriage is no longer a 50/50 scenario anymore, it is more like a 20/80 scenario. We've ruined it.

 

The main reason is we've lost trust with each other. We don't even trust ourselves anymore. We text each other and not talk to each other. We don't communicate and we are still skeptical about marriage. Why this happened, I don't know, but each generation has amplified the problems from the previous generation and made it worse. Welcome to 2013.

 

I don't think you can ignore the fact that the stigma of divorce, women's sexuality and the Pill during these decades plays a MAJOR impact on marriages and divorce.

 

It wasn't until 1964 that the Supreme Court ruled that sexual harassment and discrimination was against the law, prior to that women and minorities could be treated, hired and terminated for many unlawful reasons (that stand today).

 

And then in 1957 the Pill was approved by the ADA and women were able to control the ability to get pregnant and sustain from pregnancy. This was a crucial point in the socio-evolution of the human race and for women. There became a high level of freedom and major push for equality based on this. Then you have, at least in the US, 1973 and Roe vs Wade where abortion was legalized and all of this has had a major impact on the institute of marriage, women's rights, and divorce.

 

"In the Roaring 1920s when women won the right to vote and began entering the workforce, they started to openly acknowledge their sexual desires. In Clark's article, researcher Gilbert Hamilton asserted that "as many as a quarter of Americans had committed adultery." Then in 1927 John Watson, a psychologist predicted that marriage would end within a half century (Qtd. in Clark). By 1940, the divorce rate was 2.0 per 1,000 population. Then the divorce rate leveled off and actually declined a little during the 1950s; however, it began to increase again in the 1960s (Jost and Robinson).

 

With the sexual revolution and women's movement in the 1960s, attitudes towards divorce began to change. Although there was still a lot of stigma about divorce in America, social policies became more liberal. The state of California led the way towards enacting the "no-fault" divorce in 1969, and other states quickly followed. Soon after in 1973, the Episcopal Church changed its policy so that a marriage no longer had to be annulled before the church would allow a parishioner to remarry. The Catholic Church was still against divorce, but it did little to lobby in state capitals to change the new divorce laws (Clark).

 

In 1970 the divorce rate, which had been slowly climbing in the late 1960s, increased by almost 40 percent from 1970 to 1975. The divorce rate in the United States continued to climb, but at a slower rate, for the remainder of the decade. While divorce rates leveled off in the 1980s, experts believe they will hold steady in the future. Statistics show that half of all marriages in America will end in divorce (Jost and Robinson)." History of Divorce in America | Suite101

 

I just think it is short sighted to not factor in these major sociological movements during the same decade and their factor into the current landscape of marriages today. Women are no longer seen as just mothers and wives, there is less of a stigma now for women to divorce and women are now able to be financially solvent and not dependent on male family members.

 

Marriages may have lasted in the 40s and 50s but it is not necessarily tied to just that they could stick it out. It is tied to the culture and freedom that the women grew up with and their ability to take care of themselves if they were to leave. You also have these mothers, of the 40s and 50s raising daughters where the message may be "don't settle" and " you have options far more than I did".

[Grumpybutfun]

Clockwork and Gotit:

Very thoughtful replies and you didn't have to bash anyone to get your points across. Interesting reading. Thanks. I think everything you wrote is definitely relevant to this topic.

Great chat,

Grumps

[Got it]

I have a theory, it isn't bullet proof but hear me out:

 

 

Enter my generation and the ones that will follow. Our generation saw about half of our parents split up. Some of it was ugly. We have been skeptical about marriage. It is a "piece of paper" to some. Many of us have already been married - and divorced in under 5 years. Many of us just live together and choose not to go the whole way because our parents split up and we saw this. Many of us will never get married. A select few of us will hit our golden anniversary but not many.

 

What I think is being disregarded is our parents saw a lot of ugliness in their parents marriages BUT staying and not divorcing. So I think the pendulum swung to divorce for the issues instead of staying.

 

I know that I saw a lot of dysfunction in my parents marriage and the shining light WAS the divorce. The marriage was miserable and we all suffered because of it.

 

I think the root issue is people do not teach and train healthy familial relationships, we continue to pass on FOO coping mechanisms and people fall cluelessly into relationships repeating the same patterns they grew up with and confused by the lack of healthiness. We do this with our partners, and we raise our children with these patterns. How many people, regardless of age know healthy romantic relationships? How many of us know healthy people?

 

I think that we need to focus a lot more what healthy looks like, what it means to be in a healthy relationship, better insight into ourselves and a much bigger push on these dynamics PRIOR to marrying than trying to save the marriage when it is declining. We do not give people the proper tools to set them up for success but we cluck our tongues and shake our heads when they fail. It is the tail wagging the dog and it doesn't make any sense.

 

I don't see divorce as the ultimate issue. I see people and their lack of insight into themselves, their childhoods, and their coping and communication patterns as the issue. Until we make getting married harder and working towards achieving marriage, we will continue to rise and repeat the underlying issues.

[John-Dough]

What I think is being disregarded is our parents saw a lot of ugliness in their parents marriages BUT staying and not divorcing. So I think the pendulum swung to divorce for the issues instead of staying.

 

I know that I saw a lot of dysfunction in my parents marriage and the shining light WAS the divorce. The marriage was miserable and we all suffered because of it.

 

I think the root issue is people do not teach and train healthy familial relationships, we continue to pass on FOO coping mechanisms and people fall cluelessly into relationships repeating the same patterns they grew up with and confused by the lack of healthiness. We do this with our partners, and we raise our children with these patterns. How many people, regardless of age know healthy romantic relationships? How many of us know healthy people?

 

I think that we need to focus a lot more what healthy looks like, what it means to be in a healthy relationship, better insight into ourselves and a much bigger push on these dynamics PRIOR to marrying than trying to save the marriage when it is declining. We do not give people the proper tools to set them up for success but we cluck our tongues and shake our heads when they fail. It is the tail wagging the dog and it doesn't make any sense.

 

I don't see divorce as the ultimate issue. I see people and their lack of insight into themselves, their childhoods, and their coping and communication patterns as the issue. Until we make getting married harder and working towards achieving marriage, we will continue to rise and repeat the underlying issues.

 

Well said!

[Sparty97]

Very good point. Where is a man going to be at 70 with no wife and no children/family? Probably rotting in a home for the last 20-30 years of his life, alone.

 

Compare that to the elderly who were fortunate enough to raise and nurture my husband's very close nit family. They live at home, are cared for by their loving children and grandchildren, and have a place of honor and respect even in their golden years.

 

What planet do you live on? Assisted Living facilities are filled with widows and widowers whose kids see them 2x a year.

 

That poor 70yo man who never got married (70? Have you seen the average 70yo recently? My father is 71 and no where near heading to a home) is the same exact place but more likely to be able to afford to stay there.

[Woggle]

My father has lived a bachleor's life every since he divorced my mother by choice and he is happier than a lot of men his age. He does what he wants when he wants.

[Cinnimon]

I overheard a conversation between two women in a store not to long ago and it kind of made me want to throw up. One lady was telling the other lady how much she hated her husband and how she couldn't wait to divorce him BUT she had to wait one more year to do so because after one more year he would be worth more money (not sure why he was to be worth more, something to do with his retirement) and she hadn't worked a day in her life and she didn't plan on starting now. She went on to tell the other woman that her husband would never see it coming but that she felt he owed it to her for her staying with him so long even though she can't stand the sight of him............

[Woggle]

I overheard a conversation between two women in a store not to long ago and it kind of made me want to throw up. One lady was telling the other lady how much she hated her husband and how she couldn't wait to divorce him BUT she had to wait one more year to do so because after one more year he would be worth more money (not sure why he was to be worth more, something to do with his retirement) and she hadn't worked a day in her life and she didn't plan on starting now. She went on to tell the other woman that her husband would never see it coming but that she felt he owed it to her for her staying with him so long even though she can't stand the sight of him............

 

What kind of man wouldn't want to sign up for this? Really makes you want to commit doesn't it?

[WP4046]

I overheard a conversation between two women in a store not to long ago and it kind of made me want to throw up. One lady was telling the other lady how much she hated her husband and how she couldn't wait to divorce him BUT she had to wait one more year to do so because after one more year he would be worth more money (not sure why he was to be worth more, something to do with his retirement) and she hadn't worked a day in her life and she didn't plan on starting now. She went on to tell the other woman that her husband would never see it coming but that she felt he owed it to her for her staying with him so long even though she can't stand the sight of him............

 

 

Is that why I see marriage in so many women profiles online? LOL

[BecomingABetterMe]

So I read the first couple of pages where men were talking about protecting their property in a marriage, and then the last two pages where people were talking about the emotional/social ramifications of divorce. I can definitely see why marriage rates as a whole are going down. I don't think that it's just men who are delaying/avoiding marriage. It seems to be a great idea to wait until later to get married. My boyfriend got engaged to his ex-wife when they were still in college (20 and 22 years old) and barely even knew who they really were. She screwed him over so hard by hardly bringing in any income, burning through his $60,000 a year income, and racking up over $10,000 in consumer debt. He wanted to get out of their 3-year marriage as quickly as possible, so he unwisely agreed to pay the debt. The smartest thing that he did was to finance their home in his name only, so it was fairly easy to get the divorce without her trying to take the house.

 

I advocate dating for a good while, paying close attention to how the other person manages their money and not to marry someone who clearly is unable to be fiscally responsible. I am a budget freak, while my boyfriend is more lax with buying gifts for friends/family and gadgets for himself. We've talked about having one account for all shared expenses, and that we'd each get a set amount for personal spending money. All money he'd make from the three sports he coaches would be his to do what he pleases (it comes to over $6000 a year) and for when he wants to go on vacations together.

 

I am also okay with the primary earner being the sole owner of any real estate. That protects me from being stuck on a mortgage if we were to divorce, no need for him to refinance to add/take me off a mortgage, and he gets to keep his largest asset. If he were to pass away while we were married, our state's laws make it fairly easy to transfer a deed to a surviving spouse. Also, a good life insurance policy can help protect a spouse and children and pay off a mortgage in the event of death. Any inheritance can go into a trust that is safe from divorce proceedings and can be transferred to a spouse on death. Finally, child support laws can help make sure children are taken care of in the event of divorce (in our state at least, prenuptial agreements do not allow children to not be supported, and I think that may be true for all states).

 

I really hope that being careful about who I marry will make me much less likely to become one of those divorce statistics, but I know there are no guarantees in life. I am glad that culture is shifting so that there isn't as much pressure to marry or to stay in marriages that are unhealthy.

[WP4046]

So I read the first couple of pages where men were talking about protecting their property in a marriage, and then the last two pages where people were talking about the emotional/social ramifications of divorce. I can definitely see why marriage rates as a whole are going down. I don't think that it's just men who are delaying/avoiding marriage. It seems to be a great idea to wait until later to get married. My boyfriend got engaged to his ex-wife when they were still in college (20 and 22 years old) and barely even knew who they really were. She screwed him over so hard by hardly bringing in any income, burning through his $60,000 a year income, and racking up over $10,000 in consumer debt. He wanted to get out of their 3-year marriage as quickly as possible, so he unwisely agreed to pay the debt. The smartest thing that he did was to finance their home in his name only, so it was fairly easy to get the divorce without her trying to take the house.

 

I advocate dating for a good while, paying close attention to how the other person manages their money and not to marry someone who clearly is unable to be fiscally responsible. I am a budget freak, while my boyfriend is more lax with buying gifts for friends/family and gadgets for himself. We've talked about having one account for all shared expenses, and that we'd each get a set amount for personal spending money. All money he'd make from the three sports he coaches would be his to do what he pleases (it comes to over $6000 a year) and for when he wants to go on vacations together.

 

I am also okay with the primary earner being the sole owner of any real estate. That protects me from being stuck on a mortgage if we were to divorce, no need for him to refinance to add/take me off a mortgage, and he gets to keep his largest asset. If he were to pass away while we were married, our state's laws make it fairly easy to transfer a deed to a surviving spouse. Also, a good life insurance policy can help protect a spouse and children and pay off a mortgage in the event of death. Any inheritance can go into a trust that is safe from divorce proceedings and can be transferred to a spouse on death. Finally, child support laws can help make sure children are taken care of in the event of divorce (in our state at least, prenuptial agreements do not allow children to not be supported, and I think that may be true for all states).

 

I really hope that being careful about who I marry will make me much less likely to become one of those divorce statistics, but I know there are no guarantees in life. I am glad that culture is shifting so that there isn't as much pressure to marry or to stay in marriages that are unhealthy.

 

 

 

Lots of people get married just so they can say they have a wife or husband

[BecomingABetterMe]

Lots of people get married just so they can say they have a wife or husband

 

That makes me grimace so hard.

[DaisyLeigh1967]

Lots of people get married just so they can say they have a wife or husband

 

Or they actually just want to be married.