FelicityShot Posted August 15, 2012 Posted August 15, 2012 I don't like As. Either side of the coin, and I have been on both. But I guess there are mitigating circumstances - like in a crime of passion. What are the most persuasive mitigations can you think of? (it's not really a thread about how there are none because all infidelity is evil in its premise - if you don't mind )
MissBee Posted August 15, 2012 Posted August 15, 2012 Can't really come up with any mitigating reasons a single person would have for dating a married person. I can see how someone in an abusive relationship would resort to cheating though. 1
mercy Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 Do you mean for having an affair or crimes of passion. Sorry, I spent lots of time in the sun today. My brain is sleepy or sunburned.
Silly_Girl Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 One obvious one we see a lot is when the WS has been cheated on prior, by their spouse and they follow on by doing the same. Sometimes called revenge affair but I'm not keen on the term as I think it alludes to a manner of intent or malice that I don't believe is always there. 1
mercy Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 Oh, ok, I thought she might have meant literal crimes. No, there is never a reason to be party to lies, deception and the pain that befalls the one in the dark. Such pain is never excusable..
jwi71 Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 I don't like As. Either side of the coin, and I have been on both. But I guess there are mitigating circumstances - like in a crime of passion. What are the most persuasive mitigations can you think of? (it's not really a thread about how there are none because all infidelity is evil in its premise - if you don't mind ) One partner caring for the other - who is terminally ill and in residential hospice care. They daily toll of watching the spouse fade away - alone even- yeah, I can see that spouse turning to another just for emotional and sexual release. I can even condone it. Perhaps one partner is paralyzed from the waist down in a car wreck yet both wish to remain M. Should the other partner remain without intercourse? While some may say "discuss it" this is where I say "no." I think it would be MORE damaging to have given one's acceptance to other sexual partners because of circumstances outside your control. It would hurt - tremendously -to live that. So, cheating spouse lie your azz and get some on the side. That's two I can think of....I might be able to conjure up more. 1
bentnotbroken Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 I don't like As. Either side of the coin, and I have been on both. But I guess there are mitigating circumstances - like in a crime of passion. What are the most persuasive mitigations can you think of? (it's not really a thread about how there are none because all infidelity is evil in its premise - if you don't mind ) None at all. 1
LFH Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) I don't like As. Either side of the coin, and I have been on both. But I guess there are mitigating circumstances - like in a crime of passion. What are the most persuasive mitigations can you think of? (it's not really a thread about how there are none because all infidelity is evil in its premise - if you don't mind ) You aren't really talking about crimes of passion. Crimes of passion are when someone commits a crime, usually a murder or assault while in the grip of strong emotional outburst, generally rage or heartbreak. Crime of passion would be what is often referred to as what happens when someone goes all "bunny boiler" or a person literally gets caught with their pants down. Affairs are choices and aren't something that happen on the spur of the moment. They do "just happen" fairly often in the sense that people didn't realize that the feelings were developing, but I don't know of anyone who "accidentally" ended up with a penis inside them. If you are looking for rationalizations of affairs, everyone can give you some, but what's the point of that? The thread will turn into everyone's "reasons" being torn apart and that none of it is a cause for a betrayl and blah blah blah. I don't feel infidelity is inherently evil. I think evil is spawned by intent to harm... and as true as it is that I don't think people accidentally find themselves having sex, I also don't think it's true that MOST (I'm sure there are some) people go into this with the intention of hurting anyone. On the other hand though, I think that there is no "get out of jail free" card so to speak with an affair. If you are in it, it's because you want to be. You thought about it, you did it, and however you convince yourself it was ok, is what you told yourself to let yourself do it. I could tell you all the reasons that I am with him. I can't really tell you what made it ok for HIM to make this step, he is, after all, the one breaking his vows to be with me... and his wife IS a complete piece of work... but those are free passes. He has to own it. Just like I do. So if I understood your question, and I'm not sure I did... Any excuse or reason someone comes up with is just that. There isn't a circumstance where cheating is better than others. It's still what it is. A choice, and everyone will have their own reasons for making them, some will make more sense than others to people, but it's all still just about making a choice. Edited August 16, 2012 by LFH 2
scatterd Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 I have to agree, Crimes of passion brings to my mind someone who is physically hurting a person to be with another person. A regular affair usually does not have usually that intent. All though their has been cases.
Radagast Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 I don't like As. Either side of the coin, and I have been on both. But I guess there are mitigating circumstances - like in a crime of passion. What are the most persuasive mitigations can you think of? (it's not really a thread about how there are none because all infidelity is evil in its premise - if you don't mind ) I am pleased that you used the term "mitigating circumstances" rather than implying (to extend the metaphor) that there was a set of circumstances that could allow a successful plea of "not guilty". "Mitigation" implies that the "defendant" is indeed guilty of the charges, but because of the circumstances raised, is deemed less culpable and thus due a reduced sentence. Which I think is appropriate in this context, if we can allow that it is just a metaphor, that infidelity is not a crime, and that the unfaithful spouse is not a criminal simply by virtue of the infidelity. That established, I'd agree that abuse would be a mitigating factor, particularly if sustained over a period, since that weakens self-esteem, erodes agency and affects the ability of the abused to think purely rationally. The clinical affects of abuse are well-documented. I would also agree that severe disablement (for example, a long-term comatose state) of the spouse which precludes discussion or seeking permission to pursue intimacy with another person would count. In addition I would suggest actions by the other spouse which effectively nullify the marital contract constitute grounds for mitigation, such as abandonment. 1
Silly_Girl Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 I didn't read the OP as likening crimes of passion with affairs. More just clarifying the 'mitigating circumstances' term. And I think there are some. There are mitigating circumstances with many things. I find the stance of 'none' really difficult to understand. I find it irrational. I can respect that people hold that view but it's so alien to me it makes no sense and I can't imagine living in a society and having that view. 1
mercy Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 mitigating circumstances n. in criminal law, conditions or happenings which do not excuse or justify criminal conduct, but are considered out of mercy or fairness in deciding the degree of the offense the prosecutor charges or influencing reduction of the penalty upon conviction. Example: a young man shoots his father after years of being beaten, belittled, sworn at and treated without love. "Heat of passion" or "diminished capacity" are forms of such mitigating circumstances. Still an offense, still offended the grieving party. Though mercy can be shown. There is still the grieving party. Though affairs are not criminal in most states (we have some crazy laws on our book) it still does not excuse the conduct.
Silly_Girl Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 Though affairs are not criminal in most states (we have some crazy laws on our book) it still does not excuse the conduct. I didn't see anyone saying it did, tbh.
MissBee Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 You aren't really talking about crimes of passion. Crimes of passion are when someone commits a crime, usually a murder or assault while in the grip of strong emotional outburst, generally rage or heartbreak. Crime of passion would be what is often referred to as what happens when someone goes all "bunny boiler" or a person literally gets caught with their pants down. Affairs are choices and aren't something that happen on the spur of the moment. They do "just happen" fairly often in the sense that people didn't realize that the feelings were developing, but I don't know of anyone who "accidentally" ended up with a penis inside them. If you are looking for rationalizations of affairs, everyone can give you some, but what's the point of that? The thread will turn into everyone's "reasons" being torn apart and that none of it is a cause for a betrayl and blah blah blah. I don't feel infidelity is inherently evil. I think evil is spawned by intent to harm... and as true as it is that I don't think people accidentally find themselves having sex, I also don't think it's true that MOST (I'm sure there are some) people go into this with the intention of hurting anyone. On the other hand though, I think that there is no "get out of jail free" card so to speak with an affair. If you are in it, it's because you want to be. You thought about it, you did it, and however you convince yourself it was ok, is what you told yourself to let yourself do it. I could tell you all the reasons that I am with him. I can't really tell you what made it ok for HIM to make this step, he is, after all, the one breaking his vows to be with me... and his wife IS a complete piece of work... but those are free passes. He has to own it. Just like I do. So if I understood your question, and I'm not sure I did... Any excuse or reason someone comes up with is just that. There isn't a circumstance where cheating is better than others. It's still what it is. A choice, and everyone will have their own reasons for making them, some will make more sense than others to people, but it's all still just about making a choice. This is such a great post!
dreamingoftigers Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 I honestly think that the week following D-day is so overwhelming for the BS physically and emotionally that if something does happen, it's kind of a pass. I was so up and down after my first D-day that I wasn't sure if I wanted to skin my husband alive, jump off of a bridge, Fu*k 29 guys in the next week and a half or move to Siberia. It's simply too much. I remember at one point dropping to the floor, unable to move one tiny bit for HOURS and crying, but since I couldn't even move, the tears flowed up my forehead. For HOURS. Parts of my body were getting crushed and I couldn't even convince any part of me to move. I eventually lost sensation. NO ONE can make rational decisions under that kind of duress.
LFH Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 I honestly think that the week following D-day is so overwhelming for the BS physically and emotionally that if something does happen, it's kind of a pass. I was so up and down after my first D-day that I wasn't sure if I wanted to skin my husband alive, jump off of a bridge, Fu*k 29 guys in the next week and a half or move to Siberia. It's simply too much. I remember at one point dropping to the floor, unable to move one tiny bit for HOURS and crying, but since I couldn't even move, the tears flowed up my forehead. For HOURS. Parts of my body were getting crushed and I couldn't even convince any part of me to move. I eventually lost sensation. NO ONE can make rational decisions under that kind of duress. I truly mean no disrespect when I ask what I'm going to, and it broke my heart to read your post and it makes me so sad to realize that you felt that kind of pain. I'm sorry you ever felt that way. I'm going to ask a question based on your post, not necessarily directed to you, but to everyone... Doesn't it stand to reason that some of the OWs who felt mislead by their OP, and who were incredibly in love with them, and heartbroken and devestated also feel the same way? I see that happen here a lot and it's minimized, as if they coudln't possibly feel that way. And yet people do.
MissBee Posted August 16, 2012 Posted August 16, 2012 (edited) I truly mean no disrespect when I ask what I'm going to, and it broke my heart to read your post and it makes me so sad to realize that you felt that kind of pain. I'm sorry you ever felt that way. I'm going to ask a question based on your post, not necessarily directed to you, but to everyone... Doesn't it stand to reason that some of the OWs who felt mislead by their OP, and who were incredibly in love with them, and heartbroken and devestated also feel the same way? I see that happen here a lot and it's minimized, as if they coudln't possibly feel that way. And yet people do. I personally don't minimize an OW's feelings of hurt and heartbreak. Rightly or wrongly, heartbreak and hurt is heartbreak and hurt. I've been the OW and my heartbreak and hurt was just as real as when I was heartbroken in my single relationship. The only difference is, with my exAP I played with fire knowingly. It was no surprise to me things would end and he'd be with someone else...I knew the risk and took the risk. It doesn't mean I didn't have a right to feel pain or hurt...I'm human, but in hindsight, I was partly responsible for my own pain in that case, as I embarked on a situation where I knew the deal from jump. Our ending and what caused me heartbreak wasn't a new and surprising development, but the very thing that always existed. On the flip side, my dad is a serial cheater. There were clues to this before my mom married him...she still did and he never changed. I of course feel bad for all her hurt and pain and she feels hurt each and every time...yet she chose this man and has continued choosing him KNOWING the risks. I told her this, I told her that it angered me that she essentially chooses this situation. I told her he has issues, it's not right what he does, I definitely feel her pain and each betrayal hurts, yet she's not completely the victim, as what is causing her hurt is something she's been warned about and has had evidence of. It's like cigarette boxes with surgeon general's warnings...it is there for people to choose the risks they want. If the risks come to pass, it's not that they shouldn't feel badly, but part of them has to accept they chose it knowing this was a possible outcome. If the box had no such warnings or were misleadingly being sold as healthy supplements lol, then I think there is a greater degree or anger, injustice and victimization that people see there. But yes hurt is hurt is hurt. I don't think we should kick people while they're down..but I do think after the initial pain subsides, one has to take responsibility where it is warranted. Edited August 16, 2012 by MissBee
Author FelicityShot Posted August 17, 2012 Author Posted August 17, 2012 I am pleased that you used the term "mitigating circumstances" rather than implying (to extend the metaphor) that there was a set of circumstances that could allow a successful plea of "not guilty". "Mitigation" implies that the "defendant" is indeed guilty of the charges, but because of the circumstances raised, is deemed less culpable and thus due a reduced sentence. Which I think is appropriate in this context, if we can allow that it is just a metaphor, that infidelity is not a crime, and that the unfaithful spouse is not a criminal simply by virtue of the infidelity. That established, I'd agree that abuse would be a mitigating factor, particularly if sustained over a period, since that weakens self-esteem, erodes agency and affects the ability of the abused to think purely rationally. The clinical affects of abuse are well-documented. I would also agree that severe disablement (for example, a long-term comatose state) of the spouse which precludes discussion or seeking permission to pursue intimacy with another person would count. In addition I would suggest actions by the other spouse which effectively nullify the marital contract constitute grounds for mitigation, such as abandonment. Thank you for putting this so well. I see you do not explicitly include neglect here, though that is a part (difficult to define) of abuse. I am inferring that the witholding of sex in order to cause distress would be a factor, whereas the reluctance for sex due to R stresses would not. Abuse vs life. I have found a certain pathos in your response Radagast, because sometimes people are responding to past abuse, but the offence gets played out in a later R either in some similar form or just in the mind of the 'victim'. And then again, psychopaths know they can get away with 'murder' if they call on past abuse as an excuse. I guess you have to know whether the person you are dealing with has gone into calling on the past for an excuse, or whether they are truly in pain. And if the former, they are in pain anyway, but they appear unfeeling. Mitigation is hard, but it is relevant. And I agree, it goes along with a guilty plea.
Author FelicityShot Posted August 17, 2012 Author Posted August 17, 2012 I liked all the responses, and thanks for saying intelligent things. Sometimes I think I am struggling with the basics, and I come back here and someone says something deep or heartfelt. Sometimes we think of things, and then immediately life throws up a real life example. My friend fostered a teenage kid, and she has a family, but he just can't adjust. How could someone at that age really become part of a foreign family? If you have never experienced a family life growing up, then how will it feel to be in one as an adult? The thing is, this kid deserves compassion despite his variable behaviour. At what point/age does it become 'well you should have sorted yourself out by now'? Because of my own history and also something free in my soul, I don't think I can do the totally family unit closed off from others thing. Not how it runs in the society I have. And as long as I don't cause further hurt to people who grew up in more 'functional' environments, I really don't want to change. I like not liking what I am supposed to like. All I want is peace of mind and to continue treasuring my kids. And I can't have peace of mind with the family I had. Think I've gone too far here. Gonna get told to go to counselling lol...
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