denise_xo Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 yes, but I was think more on the lines of "we are married, so I shouldn't give up". Maybe I'm giving up too easily? I suppose these are my old guilt feelings... There's no point in you not giving up, when she has given up a long time ago. She doesn't want to change. She has told you this in pretty clear terms. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Guilt is a huge disabling factor. it stops people moving in the right direction because it hangs around your neck like a mill-stone. It's natural you should feel that way - but simply because you feel guilt, it doesn't mean you're taking the wrong steps. I understand the guilt - but you've been dancing to a tune, played by another piper, for so long, that finally choreographing your own steps, now seems disloyal and alien. Just reverse it. how loyal has she been? How far has she met you, towards the middle, to try to rectify the situation? It's give and take - but who's been giving - and who's been taking? So why is now 'taking back' something to feel so much guilt over? Very difficult to be rational in these situations. But, yes, you are right. She hasn't made any effort at all. She promised, only to go back on her own words. I suppose she felt like she 'tamed' me again. 'I'll say that, but I don't mean it.' She did try to find a therapist, though, at some point. The one her sister suggested was "too busy", then he was "too expensive". "I'll look for another one". Never happened. Even if I offered to pay. Several times. Still, she is my wife, we've been together 27 years and I really care about her. I know she doesn't do it to hurt me. It's a defensive mechanism. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 There's no point in you not giving up, when she has given up a long time ago. She doesn't want to change. She has told you this in pretty clear terms. I think I need to be reminded of this more often... 2 Link to post Share on other sites
denise_xo Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I think I need to be reminded of this more often... Just PM when needed Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Still, she is my wife, we've been together 27 years and I really care about her. I know she doesn't do it to hurt me. It's a defensive mechanism. My ex and I met in '79 and married in '82. we divorced in 2006. It's a shame when complacency and apathy rear their ugly heads, but once people determine to go down a particular route, all that time means nothing. To them, it's just time spent trundling along... My daughter tells me her father has done precious little to lift himself from the complacent status of inactivity, and laissez-faire... He had so much opportunity at his fingertips to really make a go of a business venture he bought in to, but did nothing to build it up, and had to sell it on. Much as she loves him - and I promise you hand on heart, i would be horrified if she ever 'took sides' - she has seen with her own eyes, the reasons things came to an end, and doesn't hold me to blame at all. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Just PM when needed will do... Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 There's no point in you not giving up, when she has given up a long time ago. She doesn't want to change. She has told you this in pretty clear terms. I think I need to be reminded of this more often... It's even worth writing it as a memo-header and keeping it on your desk. seriously. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
whichwayisup Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 You give her a choice. To get help. Counseling and meds. That you will do everything you can to support her so she can feel better and be able to function normally again. Let her know that this is killing you and you can't continue to live like this. She has to fix herself as nobody else is going to do that for her. Don't think divorce, think separation. Talk to her closest friends, family members to help you with all this, maybe a little intervention has to happen to help her realize she can't go on this way as it's affecting you and the marriage. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 On the other hand, you're not fine with the way things are. Therefore... I need therapy? Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 (I don't think he needs therapy. A kick up the pants on the other hand.... ) Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 You're unhappy, you're "stuck," you can't really see a way out, and you're not satisfied with your life. It's up to you to try to be objective and decide if the above description indicates therapy or not, and if so, the nature of it. I have been to therapy. But I didn't like the therapist very much, so I stopped. My wife also seemed to think that, because I went to therapy, I was the person with the problem, so it reinforced her belief that she was right and I was wrong. We also went to marriage counselling... she suggested it, but then we stopped because she didn't like the therapist. She was hardly saying anything about her problems. I guessed later that she wasn't prepared to do that, to open up. Why suggest therapy, then? Didn't think about that? BTW, I am satisfied with my life and what I've achieved... I'm not satisfied with my marriage. Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Separation, and then insist on marriage therapy when and if she asks you to come back. Make sure you screen the therapist to make sure it is someone who deals exclusively in marriage counseling, has a good track record of helping people to resolve their marital issues, and has experience in dealing with sexual issues in a marriage. Make sure enough progress has been made and a change of heart on her part before you agree to get back together. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 Separation, and then insist on marriage therapy when and if she asks you to come back. Make sure you screen the therapist to make sure it is someone who deals exclusively in marriage counseling, has a good track record of helping people to resolve their marital issues, and has experience in dealing with sexual issues in a marriage. Make sure enough progress has been made and a change of heart on her part before you agree to get back together. Thanks... I'll keep that in mind, if we get to that! Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 16, 2012 Author Share Posted August 16, 2012 You give her a choice. To get help. Counseling and meds. That you will do everything you can to support her so she can feel better and be able to function normally again. Let her know that this is killing you and you can't continue to live like this. She has to fix herself as nobody else is going to do that for her. Don't think divorce, think separation. Talk to her closest friends, family members to help you with all this, maybe a little intervention has to happen to help her realize she can't go on this way as it's affecting you and the marriage. Thanks... I'm digesting all the advice! Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Marriage therapy is the way to go, if and when she agrees to it. This is a couple problem. A marriage/compatibility problem. This is not just her problem or just your problem. Individual counseling is not going to resolve this. This is a marital issue and needs to be treated as such. Link to post Share on other sites
KathyM Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Marital therapy is to work on the relationship. His wife doesn't want to. Individual therapy is to work on himself. That is entirely up to him. I realize his wife doesn't want to right now. That's why he needs the trial separation to motivate her. This is a sexual incompatibility issue--a marital issue--not just his issue, not just her issue. That's why it needs marital counseling, but first she needs to be motivated to seek it by realizing she's going to lose him if she doesn't. Right now, she's not motivated. I think there's a good chance that will change when she has had enough of life without him. Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) The problem is that we will be heading for divorce because she doesn't want to change. I'm aware of that, but it's too early for me, with a couple of kids still young. What I'm doing is to withdraw all emotional support because I find it intolerable. To be honest, I don't want my wife to change. It's her decision. But I want to be free of the emotional package of this marriage, which is destroying me. Also, I don't want my wife to change because of me. She should do it for herself. If she is happy with the status quo, so be it, but I won't be there. Having said that, I can't help but feeling guilty about all this and I also feel pretty sorry for her and our marriage. This post also answers all the people that are still suggesting I separate or divorce to shock her into action. She won't do that. I tried that card in the past and she changed a bit, only to revert back to her old self after a few months. I know she won't change, so there is no point in trying. If I withdraw the emotional support, she might realise how important it is for her and she might do something about it. But I'm not going to force change on her. She'll decide. I'm sick and tired of trying. But you are the person with the problem. A sexless marriage, which dissatisfies you (but not enough to actually do anything to change it). It doesn't dissatisfy your wife, so it's not a problem for her, but it's clearly a problem for you. You wife does NOT have a problem if she is living without sex and is happy with that state of affairs. Apparently she is happy living a no-sex marriage. You are not happy. Therefore, you are the one with the problem. Therapy will help you to understand, and perhaps address, why you have a compulsion to remain an unhappy martyr in a sexless marriage. Why you choose to remain in this state of affairs, yet rather than simply accept it, to remain unhappy in it. At this point, your focus on this as primarily your wife's problem is all wrong. You have been posting for years about this and many Love shackers have given you varying advice but none of it has worked because you don't want it to work. You are stuck. You are probably to a good extent a masochist. But you did exactly the same thing--quit therapy when you didn't like the therapist--and never went back. Are you totally blind to the parallels between your behavior and your wife's behavior? You don't seem to realize that the key ingredient allowing your wife to remain in a sexless marriage is YOU. If you refused to tolerate this state of affairs, it would be impossible for your wife to remain in a sexless marriage. She would either have to be sexually active, or the marriage would end. You are both equally responsible for your sexless marriage. That's a truth that is probably very difficult for you to swallow, but nevertheless, after all this time, it is the only objective conclusion to be drawn. Once you stop putting all the blame on your wife for having a sexless marriage, once you start accepting that you are at least equally at fault, maybe then things can start to change. But you need therapy to get to the point of acknowleding and understanding that you are in this marriage because you want to be, not against your will. I suggested therapy for you, not her. She doesn't need therapy. She's happy as a clam in a sexless marriage. She doesn't want to change a thing. You do. At least you say you do. Actually you are satisfied with it, on some fundamental level, maybe not on the surface of things. That's what you need therapy for. To try to understand the disconnect between what you say and what you live. Edited August 17, 2012 by giotto Link to post Share on other sites
frozensprouts Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 perhaps it's time to accept things for what they are...she is who she is and the only person who can change that is her...if she doesn't want to ( or can't) then there is nothing you can do. Whatever decisions you make, make them with the idea in mind that you are doing what is right for you. It sounds like you still care for your wife very much, and don't want to hurt her ( it also sounds like you wouldn't feel very good about yourself if you did), so minimize her hurt as much as possible, but don't let that stop you from doing what you feel you need to do...if you feel you need to have separate spaces, then do so, but do it for yourself, not because you hope it will somehow make her see the" error of her ways" ( it may well do that, but as a side effect, not a goal of your action)... Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 Exactly what you said. I'm going through a mourning phase. Difficult to accept it's over, but I have to protect myself after 15 years of this. The conversation we had on holiday was such a big blow that it completely ruined it for me. I just wanted to leave! I hate hurting her. She will be thinking: "why can't he accept it the way it is ans still have a relationship?" But I can't. She will be hurting, but there is no other way, unfortunately. perhaps it's time to accept things for what they are...she is who she is and the only person who can change that is her...if she doesn't want to ( or can't) then there is nothing you can do. Whatever decisions you make, make them with the idea in mind that you are doing what is right for you. It sounds like you still care for your wife very much, and don't want to hurt her ( it also sounds like you wouldn't feel very good about yourself if you did), so minimize her hurt as much as possible, but don't let that stop you from doing what you feel you need to do...if you feel you need to have separate spaces, then do so, but do it for yourself, not because you hope it will somehow make her see the" error of her ways" ( it may well do that, but as a side effect, not a goal of your action)... Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 She won't do that. I tried that card in the past and she changed a bit, only to revert back to her old self after a few months. I know she won't change, so there is no point in trying. If I withdraw the emotional support, she might realise how important it is for her and she might do something about it. But I'm not going to force change on her. She'll decide. I'm sick and tired of trying. I hate to sound an antagonist, but my question is absolutely genuine... You understandably say you will not divorce, right now (if ever) and that's cool, no argument there.... Separation, you say, is also off the cards.... so, I'm not sure what 'withdrawing Emotional support' would entail.... I'm hard-put to understand your intention here... Does it entail (as I suggested) completely living your life to your own way? Not participating in familial activities, distancing yourself from things she elects you all do.... How is 'withdrawing emotional support' different to a 'separation'...? Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 I will be participating to family activities. What I mean is that she won't feel we are a couple anymore. She won't be able to lean on me for emotional support when she needs it. Also, refusing sex will make her feel rejected, because she likes sex and she doesn't mind having once in a while. Basically, I'm withdrawing from her. I'll do my own thing, but I will be present for my kids. I'm already doing that, but we will be to separate entities and not a "couple" anymore. She is very fragile. She won't like it one little bit. I hate to sound an antagonist, but my question is absolutely genuine... You understandably say you will not divorce, right now (if ever) and that's cool, no argument there.... Separation, you say, is also off the cards.... so, I'm not sure what 'withdrawing Emotional support' would entail.... I'm hard-put to understand your intention here... Does it entail (as I suggested) completely living your life to your own way? Not participating in familial activities, distancing yourself from things she elects you all do.... How is 'withdrawing emotional support' different to a 'separation'...? Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 Is this something you think/hope will be evident to others also? Are you going to speak with your children? And again, please don't shoot me - but surely, taking part in her family's activities and social occasions - won't be very wholesome for you.... how will you put that across? Will they see for themselves, or is that really beyond your concern...? Do you think she will confide in her family as to what you're doing? Have you told her what you intend to do, or are you simply going to make it obvious by your actions (I opt for the latter....) I'm just trying to get a really full picture, if ever you need support for a direction you want to follow... Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 Is this something you think/hope will be evident to others also? Are you going to speak with your children? And again, please don't shoot me - but surely, taking part in her family's activities and social occasions - won't be very wholesome for you.... how will you put that across? Will they see for themselves, or is that really beyond your concern...? Do you think she will confide in her family as to what you're doing? Have you told her what you intend to do, or are you simply going to make it obvious by your actions (I opt for the latter....) I'm just trying to get a really full picture, if ever you need support for a direction you want to follow... It probably won't be that evident, since I've been doing my own thing for a while now. I don't mind taking part in family activities. I don't hate my wife! On the contrary. I don't know what the children are thinking. I won't tell them right now. Maybe she will confide with her sister. I have no idea what's going on in her head! I told her I was moving to my office, but it wasn't a proper conversation. We will have it soon. The thing is, I've been craving my wife for years now, but I kept banging my head against this wall she's created around her. My head hurts very badly now. I have to stop. Link to post Share on other sites
TaraMaiden Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 It probably won't be that evident, since I've been doing my own thing for a while now. I don't mind taking part in family activities. I don't hate my wife! On the contrary. I wasn't suggesting you not take part in family activities because of any animosity you might hold against her. I'm just thinking further on this emotional support thing... and I know there are members of her family with whom you don't see eye to eye... I'm not going all preachy on you, but in Buddhism, if we find people are rubbing us up the wrong way, we're told that simply because we should have compassion for them, doesn't mean we either have to like them, or 'consort' with them.... If people p.iss us off, there's nothing on the planet which obliges us to keep their company... and if you would attend family functions for your wife's sake, then that's providing 'Emotional Support'.... isn't it? I don't know what the children are thinking. I won't tell them right now. Trust me, you won't need to. They aren't thick, they can see what's going on..... They may not understand the 'why' but they can sure as hell pick up on the 'what' before it even hit's the floor.... They may ask you. Just be prepared for questions.... Link to post Share on other sites
Author giotto Posted August 17, 2012 Author Share Posted August 17, 2012 and if you would attend family functions for your wife's sake, then that's providing 'Emotional Support'.... isn't it? Nope, I'm providing emotional support to my children. The reason why I'm there is clear. For them, not for my wife. She'll know that. It's not I don't get on with her, on the contrary. We always got on and we share the same principles. So, it won't be a torture for me. I'll just concentrate on the kids. If she gets some form of emotional support from it, so be it. I'm not giving up on my kids in order to be 100% sure she doesn't get emotional support. Which we don't know, anyway. I know the children will know. I'm ready for questions, if necessary Link to post Share on other sites
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