"If they loved you..."

[Silly_Girl]

I can't imagine loving someone and demanding anything of them.

 

I find it hard to imagine a relationship with no expectations. We all have standards and needs, I'm sure.

[MissBee]

I'm genially happy for you.

 

I think I have a lot of work today on trusting myself. I do but I'm scared to put what I've learned in action or to even put myself out there to take a chance. Fear sucks but yet part of me is saying that I'm not ready yet, I'm just not sure which is the loudest. Fear or sincerely knowing that I'm not there yet.

 

I've been on 2 dates, and they were so bad, it's funny. It's great that I realized there were no potential there and that they had issues quickly, hence no 2nd dates but yet I wonder why am I attracting those kind of men to me. That scares me.

 

It's still a process and learning experience LG. I don't think it's a case that great women NEVER meet guys who are not right for them or who have issues. The woman who is emotionally healthy and has it together is able to pick up on it quickly and exit stage left once they realize it's not what they want....which you've done. In the past, perhaps you would have ignored the flags and plowed ahead into a relationship, rationalizing and justifying wayward behavior and treatment, but you haven't. You've shown that you have better boundaries. We can't control other people having issues but we can control if we decide to take on their issues, date them and let them into our lives. You haven't...so that is awesome! I'm pretty sure that as time goes on you'll get even better and more discerning, you'll relax more and focus more on what you want and not those whom you don't want, thus attracting more of the latter

[Silly_Girl]

I'm genially happy for you.

 

I think I have a lot of work today on trusting myself. I do but I'm scared to put what I've learned in action or to even put myself out there to take a chance. Fear sucks but yet part of me is saying that I'm not ready yet, I'm just not sure which is the loudest. Fear or sincerely knowing that I'm not there yet.

 

I've been on 2 dates, and they were so bad, it's funny. It's great that I realized there were no potential there and that they had issues quickly, hence no 2nd dates but yet I wonder why am I attracting those kind of men to me. That scares me.

 

Don't assume you're attracted to the 'bad traits' though. It could be something superficial that drew you and kudos for giving it a go. And it sounds like you actually ARE putting in to practice what you've learned, hence the rapid realisation of the guys you road-tested.

 

I wrote a wish list before I considered anyone. I wrote it with a close friend with the mentality of 'if picking a man for your daughter/friend what would you choose?'. I ignored chemistry and looked for compatibility, in an attempt to depart from familiar cycles. Based on previous experiences it felt so wrong, it felt hollow and went totally against instinct, but it ended up being a very smart move. I guess it depends what you're looking for, though.

 

The consensus seems to be that it's a numbers game anyway, so don't be too disheartened by two

[alexandria35]

I'm genially happy for you.

 

I think I have a lot of work today on trusting myself. I do but I'm scared to put what I've learned in action or to even put myself out there to take a chance. Fear sucks but yet part of me is saying that I'm not ready yet, I'm just not sure which is the loudest. Fear or sincerely knowing that I'm not there yet.

 

I've been on 2 dates, and they were so bad, it's funny. It's great that I realized there were no potential there and that they had issues quickly, hence no 2nd dates but yet I wonder why am I attracting those kind of men to me. That scares me.

 

Don't want to threadjack, just want to say I understand where you're at LadyGrey because I am there myself. I've been single for 2 years and I've turned down all offers of dates because I guess I've given up and don't trust myself to find someone healthy. Most days I figure I'm just a flake who doesn't know how to attract the good guys. Still I haven't completely given up hope. I'm sure my being gunshy does have a little bit to do with fear but I also think that I'm doing some internal healing that I should have done a long time ago. I'm right in the middle of it and therefore not ready to open up to new people yet. Honestly I don't consider myself good relationship material at the moment and I think if I tried to meet someone right now I wouldn't choose well. I'm okay with this though. Right now I'm working through my past and becoming better and stronger all the time and some day I may actually deserve the relationship I desire. Of course everyone deserves the relationship they desire but what I mean is that you have to be willing to put in the hard work to get there and that's what I'm doing now but I'm not there yet. Mostly I see this time alone as a gift I'm giving myself. I deserve to be able to take this time for myself and not feel like some kind of loser because I don't have a romantic partner. I have moments of lonliness, but I'm also really having a lot of fun living entirely for myself, it's almost sinful...LOL. So chin up LadyGrey. You are a special person with a good soul and I think you are on the right track to better things.

[MissBee]

What I see most people on here say is:

 

True love equals committment. I've read many posts that say he or she doesn't love you if they don't commit to you. What is the ultimate commitment? Marriage..so in a nutshell you are somewhat saying that if someone truly loved you, they would commit.

 

I dont think that's fair or true. A lot of people marry for security, wealth, expectations, etc and not for love.

 

A lot of people who are in love don't marry..

 

So, to say if someone doesn't 100% commit to me, then they must not love me, in my opinion is unfair. It cheapens feelings. Not all love stories end in commitment. Does that mean they weren't real? Does that mean they don't count?

 

Everyone is different. I think what silly girl meant is that to say if he/she loved me, they would do what I WANT...if unfair. It devalues love for many people...we all can have our opinion about what defined love..

 

I will say this also...before I met S, I thought I knew what love was, but I didn't. I have never felt love like I had with her and I told her. I had extramarital sex before...and had no feelings for those women. S and I had a 7 month relationship and only 6 weeks of that did we have sex. I got to know her the first 5 1/2 months and fell in love then.

 

Anyway, I also think it should be said that words do mean something too. Yes actions to back it up need to be there, but for me,I mean what I say. I dont toss around i love you at all. If I love you, I say it.

 

Stone,

 

I think also what people have said is that love is not enough, especially for people who want a relationship that is committed- which an A often does not provide. Commitment doesn't mean marriage. Commitment IMO, is when someone chooses to be with me and build a relationship with me, have me as a partner in life, who loves me and also shows it to the world. Marriage is just a solidification of this commitment for many...but it is not foolproof, neither do you need to be married to be committed. Not all relationships last forever or culminate with marriage. Yes relationships that didn't include marriage can include love. I don't think anyone ever said otherwise. If an A is more than just a casual frolic, then you often want more. If you just want a NSA kind of A then none of these things matter.

 

In the context of an A, most people aren't content knowing a MP who won't ever choose them, loves them. They have a life to live and want to live it with a partner who can be by their side, not just one who loves them from far away or "love them but", which is often what an A includes an "I love you BUT...". In ANY relationship, people want more than just someone saying they love them. Feelings are just that, feelings. Feelings are often transient and fickle, which is why people put more weight on actions and which is why people are focused on the other components of love as well and not just airy fairy feelings and the passion and intensity YOU feel within yourself when with the object of your love.

Edited July 23, 2012 by MissBee

[silktricks]

Some thoughts during my lunchbreak

 

Who are we to judge the strength of someone's feelings, whether they love or don't love someone?

 

I remember back when I was being told "I love you with all my heart, I want to spend the rest of my life with you, you mean the world to me", and he hadn't moved out; was still living with his wife. Was I supposed to say "No, you liar, if you loved me you would XYZ, pronto!"? Cos I did.

 

But although he didn't (initially and for some time) do what I needed him to do, I could see he loved me, I could feel it. It was clear to those we socialised with, it was clear to his siblings when he broke down in tears at a family event. He loved me as much as he could. But still, he didn't leave. For various significant and insignificant (in my eyes!) reasons.

 

The question is about what you demand from love, not what love is. Love is different for all of us and I am not comfortable with someone sitting in judgement as to who loves who, how much, and why.

 

Interestingly we hear all the time 'OW, if he loved you, he'd leave her and be with you', what I don't remember seeing anywhere near as often is 'BS, if he loved you he'd never have had an affair'.

I've just had yet another conflict with my son's dad. I am furious. Absolutely seething. I think my son would be better off were his dad to live on the opposite side of the world, or worse... And I got to thinking of the ways in which my ex SHOWS his other children love, he takes them to the park, he cooks their dinner, he bathes them, he picks them up from school, he tickles them and makes them laugh, he ensures they see their grandparents and godparents.

 

And yet, I see my son and his dad together and I know he loves his boy. I know he does. No one that knows his dad would ever dream of suggesting he doesn't love his son. He boasts about him at work, and is livid (ironically) if anyone else lets him down. He was a perfect dad for the first 6 years, I couldn't have asked for more, and now that other situations and problems have arisen my son has been put to the back of the queue. Very far back Yet his dad still loves him. It's not a love I am satisfied with, or can be proud of, but it is definitely there.

 

It just made me think even more about my signature, about whether Love is enough. Love alone didn't and couldn't sustain me, I needed more and fought for that for quite a while.

 

I think it is possible for someone to love strongly and deeply and yet still fall short of what makes a happy relationship, whether in a marriage or an affair. It's up to the other person to decide if they are getting what they need and deserve and react accordingly.

 

The only thing I disagree with in your entire post is how often BS are told "if he really loved you he wouldn't have an affair". That is a constant litany told to those of us who forgave our spouses.

 

EVERYTHING else you've stated, I agree with. I don't believe that person A can ever define how person B feels. You can only define how you feel about how person B is acting.

 

Sometimes you can look at two people who are in a relationship and simply not understand why they are together - to all appearances they don't even like each other, let alone love - and yet they do - because they fulfill each others needs. Neither one might fulfill my needs, but I'm on the outside looking in.

 

Anyway, I really enjoyed your post and its insight. Take care. I don't post here much anymore, but you are one of the people I have enjoyed.

[Stoneman70]

I can respect that viewpoint, but I love S and suspect I always will.

 

She wasn't going to leave her husband and I knew at that point, we couldn't be together. My feelings are none less because I moved away. In fact,they are so strong, that's exactly why i left. I couldn't live there knowing we couldn't be. I couldn't say goodbye because it was way too difficult. I do know that is a problem of mine.

 

Anyway, I'm not just saying marriage is the only thing im discussung. What i want to say is that i think people should know that just because a relationship can't be, doesn't mean its not true love, doesn't mean it means nothing. Many love stories happen and can't continue becausr of life circumstances.

 

I don't want to be all starry eyed, but the truth is, just because a commitment can't happen, doesn't mean the love wasn't real.

[Got it]

Stone,

 

I think also what people have said is that love is not enough, especially for people who want a relationship that is committed- which an A often does not provide. Commitment doesn't mean marriage. Commitment IMO, is when someone chooses to be with me and build a relationship with me, have me as a partner in life, who loves me and also shows it to the world. Marriage is just a solidification of this commitment for many...but it is not foolproof, neither do you need to be married to be committed. Not all relationships last forever or culminate with marriage. Yes relationships that didn't include marriage can include love. I don't think anyone ever said otherwise. If an A is more than just a casual frolic, then you often want more. If you just want a NSA kind of A then none of these things matter.

 

In the context of an A, most people aren't content knowing a MP who won't ever choose them, loves them. They have a life to live and want to live it with a partner who can be by their side, not just one who loves them from far away or "love them but", which is often what an A includes an "I love you BUT...". In ANY relationship, people want more than just someone saying they love them. Feelings are just that, feelings. Feelings are often transient and fickle, which is why people put more weight on actions and which is why people are focused on the other components of love as well and not just airy fairy feelings and the passion and intensity YOU feel within yourself when with the object of your love.

 

This really hit home for me and reminds me of my ex. Yes I know he felt that he loved me, and he did marry me. But any actual energy into our relationship was not in the cards. There were always excuses, fears, insecurities, lack of desire, etc to actually invest in and try and make our relationship better. I would get the lip service but no action. It was the path of least resistance. Ugh!

 

Yes I do believe that one can love without moving heaven and earth. But I want someone to love like I love which is I am not going to allow obstacles, hardships or struggles to stop me from showing that love. I will move heaven and earth for the person and I want someone to invest that kind of energy back into me. That isn't going to be for everyone but that is what I want for me.

 

For a long time safety and security were more important so I could accept less for those features. And that was okay. We all have different priorities. But now I feel I stronger than that and I know longer want to settle.

[Got it]

What I see most people on here say is:

 

True love equals committment. I've read many posts that say he or she doesn't love you if they don't commit to you. What is the ultimate commitment? Marriage..so in a nutshell you are somewhat saying that if someone truly loved you, they would commit.

 

I dont think that's fair or true. A lot of people marry for security, wealth, expectations, etc and not for love.

 

A lot of people who are in love don't marry..

 

So, to say if someone doesn't 100% commit to me, then they must not love me, in my opinion is unfair. It cheapens feelings. Not all love stories end in commitment. Does that mean they weren't real? Does that mean they don't count?

 

Everyone is different. I think what silly girl meant is that to say if he/she loved me, they would do what I WANT...if unfair. It devalues love for many people...we all can have our opinion about what defined love..

 

I will say this also...before I met S, I thought I knew what love was, but I didn't. I have never felt love like I had with her and I told her. I had extramarital sex before...and had no feelings for those women. S and I had a 7 month relationship and only 6 weeks of that did we have sex. I got to know her the first 5 1/2 months and fell in love then.

 

Anyway, I also think it should be said that words do mean something too. Yes actions to back it up need to be there, but for me,I mean what I say. I dont toss around i love you at all. If I love you, I say it.

 

I guess, being the type of person I am, what is the point of love when one just sits pining.

 

Sorry, I am one of the people who found Romeo and Juliet to be annoying and frustrating. What is the point!?! But I am solution driven.

[MissBee]

LOL, I made that same Romeo and Juliet reference in one of stone's other threads.

 

I don't mean to be callous and people do have to grieve the end but the way stone posts, unless he snaps himself out of it, he will pine forever and for what? We are in control of our feelings for another, we choose to act one way or the other and one of those choices is to stop having those feelings. It is not out of our control.

 

I agree. Romeo and Juliet were teens with different circumstances, and most importantly, it was a work of fiction.

 

Grown adults in 2012 have more options available. I don't think everyone you have a romantic relationship with or love is someone you're meant to be with; however, if you do not choose to be with them or if circumstances don't permit...you have to move on and realize they were ONE of your loves, but obviously not "the one".

 

Pining for eternity is pointless. You either do something about it (as many many many people have proven you can do, even if hard) or you mourn for a time, chalk it up to it wasn't meant to be and move forward.

 

I cannot imagine staying married and pining after someone else forever. That is a prison of your own making frankly. You love the life you lead or change it.

[Got it]

I am not trying to hit Stoneman. I understand the feeling.

 

I just feel, personally for myself, I don't like to feel like a victim. I like to feel I have a lot of control over my life and so if I can change something then I will.

 

If I found that I feel I truly discovered LOVE with someone, that I never had in my marriage, I would be out the door so fast. How can one look back at that point?

 

That was similar to my story. Once I found myself attracted to dMM and in an affair with him, well I knew I had to get out of my marriage immediately. It wasn't fair to my spouse and I couldn't pretend.

 

Done Done. Finis.

[frozensprouts]

I also think ( and know of people) who show all the "actions" but don't actually love that person. There are many loveless and sexless marriages....but they got married right so that must mean they are in love?

 

No..not true. Actions don't always equal love. My sister married for money..some might see them and think oh he bought this for her and they are married and look great, but theirs is not a love story.

 

 

it's not the action of getting married that shows love, it's the loving actions within a marriage that show it ( everything from giving someone a backrub because you know they've had a long day to holding your wife's hand while she's sick from chemo...all the things that come together as loving acts)...

 

getting married is not the action, it's the words...it's the love, empathy, kindness, compassion, forgiveness, etc. that are the actions

[Adoring Moon]

He left his wife so that we could be together

 

 

I found this site because I am desperate for support and understanding, not condemnation.

 

Could I ask how long it took?

[SoMovinOn]

I find it hard to imagine a relationship with no expectations. We all have standards and needs, I'm sure.

 

Expectations are fine. Love is never unconditional.

Demands are something quite different.

[neveragain2012]

silly girl,

 

It is because they are NOT CAPABLE of that type of love with anybody!!

 

Some people are so flawed within(for different reasons), that they don't even understand a love where you fully commit yourself. This type of person has a shallow love with no depth towards everyone in their life.

 

My H's cheating on me didn't have anything to do with whether he loved me or not!!

 

It was ALL ABOUT the flaws inside of himself. It would not have mattered who he was married to, he still would have cheated on them!(he has told me this repeatedly over the years)

 

 

I disagree, respectfully of course. I've been married twice. I cheated (shamelessly) on my first husband, didn't even consider it with my second. Why? It wan't due to 'lack' of love for my first husband, it's the kind of love. It's not that I didn't love him enough, it's that I didn't love him the right way. I loved him as a person, as a friend, a BEST friend, a true companion. But I didn't love him the way a wife should love her husband, which is why I was able to cheat.

 

What I felt for my second husband was totally different from my first husband. We were military so there were long periods of separation where I had ample opportunity to stray. But it never crossed my mind. Ever. It wasn't a more intense love. It was a different one.

 

But...I do agree it has nothing to do with the BS. Its nothing lacking in them. All the responsibilty for the A lies on the the WS. Before you get all up in arms, I didn't say the problems in the relationship are all on the WS, just the A. If they were unhappy they had a choice to separate, divorce, go to IC or MC, but they chose an A instead. THAT is all on them!

[neveragain2012]

" Interestingly we hear all the time 'OW, if he loved you, he'd leave her and be with you', what I don't remember seeing anywhere near as often is 'BS, if he loved you he'd never have had an affair'. "

 

 

I've thought this before as well. See my above reply, it comes down to type of love. I have no doubts at all that my xMM loved me AND his spouse. She wasn't a horrible person. He didn't bash her to me, make claims of no sex, no attention, all the usual claims of neglect. But I maintain that he didn't love her the right way if he was able to have an A in the first place.

[Silly_Girl]

Expectations are fine. Love is never unconditional.

Demands are something quite different.

 

I demand things of life, my career, my relationships. There are things that I need and if I don't get I have to make changes. I call that demands. Why does the word seem to bother you?

[Got it]

" Interestingly we hear all the time 'OW, if he loved you, he'd leave her and be with you', what I don't remember seeing anywhere near as often is 'BS, if he loved you he'd never have had an affair'. "

 

 

I've thought this before as well. See my above reply, it comes down to type of love. I have no doubts at all that my xMM loved me AND his spouse. She wasn't a horrible person. He didn't bash her to me, make claims of no sex, no attention, all the usual claims of neglect. But I maintain that he didn't love her the right way if he was able to have an A in the first place.

 

See I am not sure if I see it the same way. I cheated. I cheated because at that point gambling the relationship was worth the risk to have the affair. At that point I did not value the marriage to outweigh the pros I would get from the affair.

 

If something is of great importance to you, if you value it above all else, you don't tend to try and risk it. Humans are, by nature, innately selfish. Shoot, survive is selfish, procreation is selfish, we want to continue our existence and our DNA's existence. So we don't risk that which is important to us, that which we feel we can lose.

 

Now that could beg the question if one feels that even if they cheat that their spouse will leave them. Perhaps not. But, to me, at the end of the day, if something is important to me I am not going to risk it. Period.

 

For myself, If I truly loved and respected my ex I wouldn't have cheated. I did not respect him. I loved him to some degree but not in love with him and not to care about risking losing him.

 

Maybe it is where I was in the relationship, maybe it is a gender thing, maybe it is a me thing. But for me, that line does hold true to me.

 

I wasn't out to hurt my ex, but I didn't mind losing him.

[sleepie]

If something is of great importance to you, if you value it above all else, you don't tend to try and risk it. Humans are, by nature, innately selfish. Shoot, survive is selfish, procreation is selfish, we want to continue our existence and our DNA's existence. So we don't risk that which is important to us, that which we feel we can lose.

 

I can think of many situations where people risk their lives or the lives of their families for one reason or another. We will risk even that we value for the right reason.

[Got it]

I can think of many situations where people risk their lives or the lives of their families for one reason or another. We will risk even that we value for the right reason.

 

Okay, I feel that is a slippery slope. If we will risk even that which we value for the right reason? What is the right reason? And if it right then what are we truly risking? And if we are risking it because the right reason is truly right for us, then do we truly value that which we are risking?

 

[sleepie]

Okay, I feel that is a slippery slope. If we will risk even that which we value for the right reason? What is the right reason? And if it right then what are we truly risking? And if we are risking it because the right reason is truly right for us, then do we truly value that which we are risking?

 

 

It IS a slippery slope, and I don't think there are any hard answers. "Right reason" will vary from person to person. Levels of value for anything--life, love, family--will vary from person to person.

 

I just think we tend to weigh all the risks and consequences. We may value something, for example our M, but if the risk of losing it (discovery) is low, and the reward is personally high to us (need for validation), we still might risk it.

 

People risk their lives to go into burning buildings to save strangers. Do those heroes lack value for their lives? No. Do they place greater value on a stranger's life? I'd guess no in a situation where the two people were standing face to face and it was kill or be killed. But is the reward of being a hero or saving another life worth the risk? Probably.

 

I just think there's a lot of gray area here.

[Silly_Girl]

One person's "right reason," (i.e. a remorseless cheater's own selfish wants) can sometimes never align with another's.

 

And sometimes 'right reasons' aren't 'selfish' or 'remorseless' and still they don't align.

 

Life! Tsk.

[beenburned]

neveragain,

 

If you realized you didn't love your 1st H in the right way, why didn't you just divorce him, instead of shamelessly(your word) cheating on him?

 

My H's thought processes early in our marriage, was one of immaturity, selfishness, and self centeredness.(mainly because he was so young)

 

He has told me repeatedly, over these many years of marriage, he WOULD have cheated on anybody he was with, because it didn't have anything to do with how much/little he loved his spouse.

 

It all boiled down to he was going to do what ever he wanted, as long as he could get away with it. I feel like he was desperately trying to hold on to the benefits of a single man, and have the benefits of a wife, marriage, and children.

[Got it]

And sometimes they clearly are, such as a cheater who leads a gullible OW/OM on for, in some cases, a decade or more.

 

Donna, that isn't nice. Why do you insist on taking potshots?

 

Yes in some cases, in some extremes, there can be pure evil. Sure. But that is one end of the pendulum. I think what is being argued by many is the large 60% in the middle of the bell curve.

 

sleepie - I do agree with you, I do think we are arguing similar points on your last post. Just the gamble is worth the risk, it is seen as a lesser threat for the greater good of the action at hand.

 

I am just not sure if I agree with the premise that the affair is the greater good. To each their own, and it may be the solution for their situation, my experience in one, is that there is a lot to lose and usually what you are band aiding comes up vulnerable when exposure happens. Just looking at the statistics, the longer something is kept hidden the better chance one has for exposure; its just playing the odds.

 

So, in my experience, I can see it being a short term solution but long term gets really tricky. But for me, I risked the marriage because it no longer was my top priority. Nor was the need of the security and safety it provided me. On the positive front I had been able to outgrow the security blanket of it that I was holding on to. But by moving past that I moved past any needs for the marriage (as my other needs weren't being met).

 

On the confusing flip side, my goal was never to hurt my ex, nor did I ever care to have him suffer. It wasn't about him in that regard. I did care, I wanted him to be happy. I just knew it was not going to be with me. Because to continue meant sacrificing me.

[Radagast]

Interestingly we hear all the time 'OW, if he loved you, he'd leave her and be with you', what I don't remember seeing anywhere near as often is 'BS, if he loved you he'd never have had an affair'.

 

Before my affair, I would have claimed that I loved my then-wife. But the affair showed me that I did not. Because I was willing to have an affair, prepared to take the risk of losing my marriage, and was at least willing on some unconscious level to risk hurting her in the process. Counselling showed me the depth of my anger towards her, and helped me understand my motivation in seeking to exact revenge on her for the myriad wounds and indignities I'd suffered, or felt I'd suffered, during my marriage, by having the affair. An affair is not an act of love towards the spouse. It is an act of hatred, of anger, or of indifference. In my case all three.

 

I loved my love, with every fibre of my being, and yet I know that even if I had not left my marriage I would have loved her no less. I would simply have been paralysed by the fear of what my leaving would do to my children, having seen the trauma they suffered through a previous separation. Perhaps, according to those you quote, the argument holds that I didn't love her enough if I was prepared to put my duty as father to ensure as far as I could the emotional and physical wellbeing of my children ahead of my love for my lover. Perhaps "loving her enough" in their view equates with pulling out all stops, irrespective of morality or legality, in order to be together. Perhaps such voices would only have been satisfied had we married on the bloodied grave of my ex-wife, I can't say. But I can state hand on heart that my love for my wife could have been no greater, whatever the body count.