"If they loved you..."

July 23, 2012

in other words...do emotions without action really matter?

That, I think, is the kicker in this discussion.

I'm still arguing for the continuum, though.

I think he loved me. I'm certain he loved his W more. So what action makes sense in that situation? Staying with his W.

Both are love, but one love is stronger/different-in-a-better-way than the other.

July 23, 2012

Miss Bee, I didn't suggest it would be 'profitable' to acknowledge such things, I point is I am uncomfortable in seeing Person A prescribing to Person B that Person C does not love them, when Person A has not met Person C. And not only that but Person A is judging Person C on their own personal parameters, which could likely be different to B and C

I found it offensive when I was told by LSers the MM did not love me, and looking back from an entirely different perspective now I still think to do so to posters is wrong. It does nothing to empower the disadvantaged OW in my view. In fact, the way a few have done it, it just smacks of bullying.

I understand what you're saying. The concept of how can you say someone you don't know does/doesn't love someone else. I get that. But I'd say that how people determine it is by the actions and what that person is saying to them about the behavior of this other person. Usually person B is also not quite sure if what is going on is love either, and it is reflected in their post. I think what happens is we read someone's post and we gain a sense of what they value based on what they seem content or upset about and that's how you're able to determine if you have similar parameters and ideas about love/relationships etc. I don't think it is a shot in the dark. There are posters here that I know based on what they say, that the way they view love is vastly different from mine, and I consider that in the advice I give or what I say. Then some, I can tell they are more like me, or express sentiments I used to express and from that I determine my advice.

I would say that perhaps someone cannot say Person A doesn't love Person B, in a strict sense, if we go with the notion that the only way you can know something is true is if you are in Person A's head. Or we can just be careful about it. I would only say it in some very clear cases to me, where the actions seem quite contrary to what I know love to be. I've always said that I don't think it's the case that a MP cannot love their AP...but to what degree and do they love them more than or over against other things. My interest isn't really in determining if the MM feels love, but if it fits what the OP wants from love, as you discussed in terms of demands of love. If their wants of love isn't matching up with the MM's abilities then I don't think the love is enough and I wouldn't focus on reassuring them that the MP loves them. For my own posting style, in some cases I'm sure I've said that I don't think this situation is about love at all and in other cases I'll say, this person may care about you and feel strongly, but it's falling short, so what now?

July 23, 2012

This is a funny thread because I think everyone is kind of saying the same thing, even the OP.

Love is different things to different people. I had a long relationship with a personality disordered man. I often felt like no way can he love me and treat me like this. When the relationship finally ended I was tormented by the thought that I gave so many years to a man who didn't even really love me. But at the same time I realize that what he did feel for me was a feeling that he identified as love. When he told me that he loved me he fully believed that he did, however his kind of love didn't feel or look like love to me at all. So I guess in order for two people to have a sucessful longterm relationship they need to have similar styles of love. For most people love without action or commitment isn't worth much. Silly Girl you are permitted to say whatever you want about your relationship with the MM. You can say that he loves/loved you even if he never left his wife, but others are also permitted to give their opinion on that kind of love. For most people it wouldn't be good enough, and it wasn't enough for you either. And now you can't really be objective about it because your MM did love you enough to take action and make it happen, which of course will affirm to you that he truly did love you all along. I think you may feel differently if the events were different. What if you left him and his response was just to go get himself another OW? Or buy a house and have a baby with his wife? Then would you be so certain and sure of the realness and depth of his love?

Yepp!

I've always said that the man I will marry we have to have ideas about love that are in sync. What he believes is love and what I believe is love, must gel and be compatible.

That's all that matters; as from then on, you can hold each other to a standard--which is very important. As the problem is when it becomes very personalized, where your standard is different from mine and we both have different ideas of love, then it becomes a matter of using two incompatible standards to judge, which will be a headache and a mess. So we need to have the same/similar standards that we can hold each other accountable to without too much deliberation, debate and too many grey areas of trying to decipher if xyz is love.

July 23, 2012

Thanks LG, appreciated. And yes, it would have been so much better for both of them if they'd taken action when it was obvious they needed to.

Wait.

What happened?

I too was under the impression you two were still together...

July 23, 2012

Wait.

What happened?

I too was under the impression you two were still together...

I don't want to go in to lots of details because it's his life and not ours if you see what I mean, but as hard as we tried to find a living/working solution, we were both in precarious job/house situations for different reasons and we got nowhere - we currently live 5,000 miles apart, not a move I could take on due to my son's schooling. And I had previously thought 200 miles was long distance

July 23, 2012

i think there are an awful lot of positive emotions like love, compassion, empathy, kindness, etc. that are wonderful things. The problem is that without expression or influence on one's actions, , do they matter?

This makes me think of how a lot of people come to LS with a story full of all the terrible things their partner has done to them, then conclude the story with "but he's really a good guy".

Is a person good if they do bad things?

Is a person honest if they lie?

Is a person nice if they do mean things?

Is a person respectful if they disrespect you?

Is a person reliable if they let you down?

Is a person in love with you if they do unloving things?

In my case, xMW told me all the time she loved me. It felt like she did when we were around each other. But every night she went home, climbed into bed with her H, kept having sex with him, and never took any real steps to actually be with me. Some people say they'd be comforted knowing if they were really loved, and not just used. Maybe she did truly love me and was just too weak to do anything about her situation -- but to me that's not comforting, it's pathetic.

July 23, 2012

I also think ( and know of people) who show all the "actions" but don't actually love that person. There are many loveless and sexless marriages....but they got married right so that must mean they are in love?

No..not true. Actions don't always equal love. My sister married for money..some might see them and think oh he bought this for her and they are married and look great, but theirs is not a love story.

July 23, 2012

silly girl,
I understand what you mean, but I still think that love needs some kind of action, otherwise it's only lip service.
Whether it's living together or letting someone go if you think they are better off without you.
I use my story as an example: my ex bf, whom I briefly betrayed with my ex MM, even after being told of the A, still behaved like a gentleman. We are still friends and he's great, helping and morally supporting me through a time of personal crisis.
I know he loves me. Because his actions say he does.
On the other hand, the ex MM, who is my first love (therefore my ex fiancee' of a long time ago) said he loved me a thousand time but I have not had any evidence of this. I cannot feel it. Nor could I feel it then when we were partners.
It was passion, romantic love, etc. But I never felt like I could have his help or his support or that he would be there for me no matter what.
So for me, whatever he says, he never loved me.
The only woman he loved (despite his denying this) is his wife. He committed to her and not to me. Actions speak louder than words.

Awww, that's also a good determinant IMO. I am wary of "love" that is only love when it gets what it wants. It is a strong testimony to the depth of a person's love, if they still respect you, go out of their way for you, help you and wish you well, even if they didn't get what they would have liked.

I think romantic love is very fickle. I mean I want someone who is sexually attracted to me and has romantic feelings for me, but who also loves me, regardless of if I was their romantic partner...but as a person. A love that only loves you so long as you are sexually attractive and can incite passion is not enough for a relationship IMO. Neuro-psychologists studying love, romance and passion can also attest to the fact that such feelings are very powerful, but they are often transient and not substantive. You cannot control such feelings of attraction and chemistry, you feel it or you don't...but love in the deeper sense is a conscious choice that you have to make and nurture with actions. Anyone can feel any way, we have little control of that, but love is a conscious choice, aprticularly, being loving, is a conscious choice. For me feeling love without actually being loving doesn't matter.

July 23, 2012

I also think ( and know of people) who show all the "actions" but don't actually love that person. There are many loveless and sexless marriages....but they got married right so that must mean they are in love?

No..not true. Actions don't always equal love. My sister married for money..some might see them and think oh he bought this for her and they are married and look great, but theirs is not a love story.

Who has espoused the idea that simply marrying means love? It doesn't. No one ever said that. You also know a loving marriage by the actions therein.

July 23, 2012

I also think ( and know of people) who show all the "actions" but don't actually love that person. There are many loveless and sexless marriages....but they got married right so that must mean they are in love?

No..not true. Actions don't always equal love. My sister married for money..some might see them and think oh he bought this for her and they are married and look great, but theirs is not a love story.

Hm. A good point and worth pondering. There probably ARE plenty of cases of people who "go through the motions," and those motions look like love to the people who are on the receiving end of their actions. But, for whatever reason, the love isn't there. Just the sense of obligation or responsibility, or maybe just respect/compassion, or whatever. Although one could argue that this is a type of love, too.

Geez. Who knew it was so complicated?

July 23, 2012

This makes me think of how a lot of people come to LS with a story full of all the terrible things their partner has done to them, then conclude the story with "but he's really a good guy".

Is a person good if they do bad things?
Is a person honest if they lie?
Is a person nice if they do mean things?
Is a person respectful if they disrespect you?
Is a person reliable if they let you down?
Is a person in love with you if they do unloving things?

In my case, xMW told me all the time she loved me. It felt like she did when we were around each other. But every night she went home, climbed into bed with her H, kept having sex with him, and never took any real steps to actually be with me. Some people say they'd be comforted knowing if they were really loved, and not just used. Maybe she did truly love me and was just too weak to do anything about her situation -- but to me that's not comforting, it's pathetic.

It just becomes too precarious and dangerous territory (like in abusive situations) where one is looking at concrete actions or the lack thereof and then disregarding them, particularly if the actions are not so nice or downright negative, by labeling it with a nice emotion/quality.

Actions trump emotional label IMO.

July 23, 2012

Awww, that's also a good determinant IMO. I am wary of "love" that is only love when it gets what it wants. It is a strong testimony to the depth of a person's love, if they still respect you, go out of their way for you, help you and wish you well, even if they didn't get what they would have liked.

Can you expand on this a bit? I'm a little worried about the implication that, say, someone who kicks out their WS after catching them cheating isn't in love. I still feel love for xMW despite being NC with her for over 3 months now, and the main reason we're not in contact is because I didn't get what I would have liked, despite her repeated promises to the contrary.

July 23, 2012

Can you expand on this a bit? I'm a little worried about the implication that, say, someone who kicks out their WS after catching them cheating isn't in love. I still feel love for xMW despite being NC with her for over 3 months now, and the main reason we're not in contact is because I didn't get what I would have liked, despite her repeated promises to the contrary.

I wasn't trying to imply that love means you accept every and any bad treatment because you love someone (although some people believe this). What I meant is that, I'm wary of love that is self-centered and is only dependent on you getting, getting, getting (in a very one sided way) and as soon as it seems you can't get, you aren't in love or you start acting out. The "I love you so long as you keep giving to me, doing for me, make me feel good, even if I don't do the same".

I wasn't talking about demanding respect, honesty, transparency, communication etc-which to me is what kicking out a WS is about or deciding to no longer be with someone who cannot provide those integral things. That's smart and sensible and part and parcel with love, that you request those things and for those things to be mutually exchanged, since the point is that a relationship is more than just "being in love" as a feeling.

I will add that self-love is also foremost...it's hard to love someone when you don't love yourself. When you lack that and try to love another, it usually produces very toxic forms of love, one example, is those who will indeed accept any and every bad treatment in the name of love and hope that if they continue loving, this person will eventually treat them well too.

July 23, 2012

A different perspective......I'm sure we all know of friends or family who have spouted off "but I love him", when we the listener are shaking our heads and thinking what the hell, are you nuts and what does love have to do with that?

For instance the abused woman, who keep returning to an abusive relationship, with proclamations of "but I love him".

For instance the gf or the wife or the husband or the bf, who has been cheated on multiple times and she goes back with no change and proclaims, "but I love him/her".

Those kind of relationships and examples have very little to do with love and extreme examples of love as a feeling but no action.

I've been reading a great book called, Creating Love: The Next Great Stage of Growth by John Bradshaw. It's such a great book. He's a relationship counselor and brings up those same examples. In his book he talks about what he calls mystified love, that is: "An understanding of love is formed in childhood and early family experiences." He discusses how often times this is a counterfeit type of love, particularly if you come from a not so good family dynamic, and how people carry this with them through their life, thus superimposing this model, which is often not love, on to other situations.

In any case, it's a great book and he differentiates between types of love, types of mystified love, types of family dynamics and how that plays into love etc. and how you can realize what counterfeit ideas you have and how you can evolve to be able to nurture a truer form of love.

July 23, 2012

Miss Bee, I didn't suggest it would be 'profitable' to acknowledge such things, I point is I am uncomfortable in seeing Person A prescribing to Person B that Person C does not love them, when Person A has not met Person C. And not only that but Person A is judging Person C on their own personal parameters, which could likely be different to B and C

I found it offensive when I was told by LSers the MM did not love me, and looking back from an entirely different perspective now I still think to do so to posters is wrong. It does nothing to empower the disadvantaged OW in my view. In fact, the way a few have done it, it just smacks of bullying.

"Love" based upon deceit is not love. You can lipstick that pig all you like, but it's still deceit.

July 23, 2012

"Love" based upon deceit is not love. You can lipstick that pig all you like, but it's still deceit.

There was no deceit for us, the deceit was in the marriage, initially.

July 23, 2012

I need to get that book.

I know my version of love was screwed up in the past, I have several past relationships that prove it. ha ha

I'm not saying I'm fixed, but I've come a long, long way. I may not have a completely healthy perspective on what a good love relationship is, but I certainly know what it is NOT. So that is progress.

My biggest stumbling block now is fear that I can't have it and a small part of me is afraid I would screw it up and I'm also afraid that I have so much baggage that the right kind of man won't want to risk it with me. I wish I could blend the parts of myself that had little fear when I was younger with the smarter parts of me that has learned from the past, if that makes sense.

Part of me is fine with being alone, part of me wishes not to be. Ugggg!

I can understand. I have met someone who is perfect for the me I am now, but it is very difficult to relax at times, I have some triggers from my 'nasty' relationship. It took me a long time to realise I'm not the me I was. And as my counsellor loves to point out, I could only be with someone grounded, genuine, clever, fun and loving if I was putting that out there in the first place. I barely recognise myself in the old me. it's amazing what a devastating break-up, illness a spot workplace bullying can bring about

I have spent a lot of time investigating self-trust! I started to love myself way back, I reprioritised and got my life in the best order it ever had been, but trusting in my own romantic choices is something I'm learning. My counsellor helps a lot with this. I used to think everything was a red flag or anything good was obviously going to turn sour. Hardly useful when in pursuit of a decent relationship.

I honestly don't know if I'll ever feel the intensity that I felt, and so many other ways I could describe it, but I don't care. I valued it and treasured it when I had it and am very, very happy now in the new life I made for myself.

July 23, 2012

I've been reading a great book called, Creating Love: The Next Great Stage of Growth by John Bradshaw. It's such a great book. He's a relationship counselor and brings up those same examples. In his book he talks about what he calls mystified love, that is: "An understanding of love is formed in childhood and early family experiences." He discusses how often times this is a counterfeit type of love, particularly if you come from a not so good family dynamic, and how people carry this with them through their life, thus superimposing this model, which is often not love, on to other situations.

In any case, it's a great book and he differentiates between types of love, types of mystified love, types of family dynamics and how that plays into love etc. and how you can realize what counterfeit ideas you have and how you can evolve to be able to nurture a truer form of love.

Wow John Bradshaw. I'd forgotten about him. I remember reading one of his books years ago and I really agreed with a lot of what he had to say.

I think the bottom line is that words without actions just don't have any meaning to them. Don't we all form our judgements of people based on their actions? You could tell me you're an artist but if you don't do anything artistic I'm gonna have a tough time believing you. You could say that you care deeply about the poor and suffering, you could say you cry yourself to sleep every night over their plight, but If I don't see you doing a damn thing to help them either through charity or donating, then I'm really going to doubt the sincerity of your claims. You could tell me you're a giver but if if all I see you doing is taking then I'm not going to be able to buy into your giving side. Gee maybe you really really want to be a giving person, maybe you really feel in your heart that you would like to be more giving, but if you're not going to do anything towards that then you might as well just shut the hell up and stop talking about it. Talk is cheap, it is the actions that count.

July 23, 2012

This is a funny thread because I think everyone is kind of saying the same thing, even the OP.

Love is different things to different people. I had a long relationship with a personality disordered man. I often felt like no way can he love me and treat me like this. When the relationship finally ended I was tormented by the thought that I gave so many years to a man who didn't even really love me. But at the same time I realize that what he did feel for me was a feeling that he identified as love. When he told me that he loved me he fully believed that he did, however his kind of love didn't feel or look like love to me at all. So I guess in order for two people to have a sucessful longterm relationship they need to have similar styles of love. For most people love without action or commitment isn't worth much. Silly Girl you are permitted to say whatever you want about your relationship with the MM. You can say that he loves/loved you even if he never left his wife, but others are also permitted to give their opinion on that kind of love. For most people it wouldn't be good enough, and it wasn't enough for you either. And now you can't really be objective about it because your MM did love you enough to take action and make it happen, which of course will affirm to you that he truly did love you all along. I think you may feel differently if the events were different. What if you left him and his response was just to go get himself another OW? Or buy a house and have a baby with his wife? Then would you be so certain and sure of the realness and depth of his love?

The bolded above is something I can REALLY relate to; not because of my MM but my exH!!! I loved him more than EVER when we met and for the first time in my life I knew without a doubt that he loved me... Neither of us knew this when we were dating but we found out later he suffered from Bipolar Disorder

After 9 years of marriage and 2 children, I couldn't take it anymore. As much as I KNEW he loved me... I also came to realize that because of his disorder, he could NEVER give me what I needed. He became another child for me to take care of and the resentment started to build up and once resentment sets in... it's too hard to come back from that. I didn't like who I became and didn't want my children growing up thinking this was what a normal relationship looks like so I left him.

Where my MM is concerned... same goes for him... He cannot give me what I need. His inability to give me what I need isn't due to a mental disorder but the WHY doesn't matter... its more about "CAN". Emotionally unavailabe or physically unavailable... they are BOTH UNAVAILABLE!

Do I believe he loves me???? Absolutely! Do I believe he loves his wife??? Without a doubt! Regardless of WHO he loves more, it doesn't matter because at the end of the day, it is MY needs that aren't getting met and I have to decide if the relationship is making me be the best person I can be; it is NOT. Each and every one of us has to make that decision for ourselves, no one else can make it for us.

July 23, 2012

Wow John Bradshaw. I'd forgotten about him. I remember reading one of his books years ago and I really agreed with a lot of what he had to say.

I think the bottom line is that words without actions just don't have any meaning to them. Don't we all form our judgements of people based on their actions? You could tell me you're an artist but if you don't do anything artistic I'm gonna have a tough time believing you. You could say that you care deeply about the poor and suffering, you could say you cry yourself to sleep every night over their plight, but If I don't see you doing a damn thing to help them either through charity or donating, then I'm really going to doubt the sincerity of your claims. You could tell me you're a giver but if if all I see you doing is taking then I'm not going to be able to buy into your giving side. Gee maybe you really really want to be a giving person, maybe you really feel in your heart that you would like to be more giving, but if you're not going to do anything towards that then you might as well just shut the hell up and stop talking about it. Talk is cheap, it is the actions that count.

I think for a lot of people it's a case of the heart is willing but the flesh is weak probably...

The road to hell is paved with good intentions as they say...so maybe they indeed feel they love someone, yet lack the follow through.

But in the end, we're creatures that need concrete stuff, not just good intentions and heart felt, sweet-nothings.

Maybe it feels more soothing to think someone loved you but was incapable versus they never loved you at all?

July 23, 2012

I also think ( and know of people) who show all the "actions" but don't actually love that person. There are many loveless and sexless marriages....but they got married right so that must mean they are in love?

No..not true. Actions don't always equal love. My sister married for money..some might see them and think oh he bought this for her and they are married and look great, but theirs is not a love story.

I don't think anyone here thinks that all marriages are based on love, so I'm not sure what your point is. I agree with the second part though. Actions don't always equal love. Yes this is definitely true. If you cheat on your spouse, choose to stay with the spouse instead of the one you claim to love then your actions are most definitely not equal to love. If your sister loved or even cared a little bit for her husband then the most loving thing she could do for him is tell him the truth and let him go.

July 23, 2012

We were talking about love and someone who marries for money doesn't love anything but...money and security.

@miss bee

Personally, I prefer to think someone never loved me rather than that he was incapable or weak.

July 23, 2012

We were talking about love and someone who marries for money doesn't love anything but...money and security.
@miss bee
Personally, I prefer to think someone never loved me rather than that he was incapable or weak.

To the bolded: I can understand that as well.

July 23, 2012

What I see most people on here say is:

True love equals committment. I've read many posts that say he or she doesn't love you if they don't commit to you. What is the ultimate commitment? Marriage..so in a nutshell you are somewhat saying that if someone truly loved you, they would commit.

I dont think that's fair or true. A lot of people marry for security, wealth, expectations, etc and not for love.

A lot of people who are in love don't marry..

So, to say if someone doesn't 100% commit to me, then they must not love me, in my opinion is unfair. It cheapens feelings. Not all love stories end in commitment. Does that mean they weren't real? Does that mean they don't count?

Everyone is different. I think what silly girl meant is that to say if he/she loved me, they would do what I WANT...if unfair. It devalues love for many people...we all can have our opinion about what defined love..

I will say this also...before I met S, I thought I knew what love was, but I didn't. I have never felt love like I had with her and I told her. I had extramarital sex before...and had no feelings for those women. S and I had a 7 month relationship and only 6 weeks of that did we have sex. I got to know her the first 5 1/2 months and fell in love then.

Anyway, I also think it should be said that words do mean something too. Yes actions to back it up need to be there, but for me,I mean what I say. I dont toss around i love you at all. If I love you, I say it.

July 23, 2012

The question is about what you demand from love, not what love is.

I can't imagine loving someone and demanding anything of them.

Interestingly we hear all the time 'OW, if he loved you, he'd leave her and be with you',...

Which to me is a ridiculous thought which assumes only the two of you exist in a vacuum where nothing else in life matters. I've seen the extreme form of such thinking, to the point where it's "If you love me, you wouldn't leave me to go to work all day" ... real life exists, even when you're in love.

...what I don't remember seeing anywhere near as often is 'BS, if he loved you he'd never have had an affair'. ...

I think that's a given, but, beyond that, I do see that sentiment expressed here often, most explicitly in the threads where the question is asked if it's possible for the WS to love their BS.

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