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[Steadfast]

Not everyone should try to reconcile...and not everyone needs divorce to heal.

 

And no one should tell others that they're wrong for feeling how they feel because they see recovery as a different path from their own.

 

Owl and everyone, including myself. Telling people what they should post and communicate is beyond our grasp. Hard as it is sometimes, what's needed here is to allow people to say what they will and allow the poster to decide. I'm not saying you can't disagree or even post a disagreement, but what is written and what is meant is sometimes lost in the translation.

 

If it's that difficult, start your own forum and delete what you disagree with. I say this with the greatest of respect for you Owl. In my opinion, your advice is spot on and you do a great job of staying neutral. That said, you are a cheerleader for recons and since you've successfully pulled it off, your qualifications for that are better than most. Because it's rare.

 

I was once a strong proponent of recon if possible, but since I actively began counseling/coaching, the occurrence of true, heartfelt change in a cheater is even rarer than I originally thought. In fact, I'm shocked at the number of revenge affairs from betrayed spouses. In my experience it's 80-85% for 'reunited' couples. I've met and spoken with people who swore up and down they were over their partner's affair and the problems had been worked out, only to jump at the chance to have one of their own.

 

Betrayal is a fire that burns long. The betrayer ALWAYS gets burned.

 

Just to play it safe, I have adopted a 'one drop' rule when it comes to infidelity. The odds are stacked overwhelmingly against the marriage burdened by it.

[Decorative]

Owl and everyone, including myself. Telling people what they should post and communicate is beyond our grasp. Hard as it is sometimes, what's needed here is to allow people to say what they will and allow the poster to decide. I'm not saying you can't disagree or even post a disagreement, but what is written and what is meant is sometimes lost in the translation.

 

If it's that difficult, start your own forum and delete what you disagree with. I say this with the greatest of respect for you Owl. In my opinion, your advice is spot on and you do a great job of staying neutral. That said, you are a cheerleader for recons and since you've successfully pulled it off, your qualifications for that are better than most. Because it's rare.

 

I was once a strong proponent of recon if possible, but since I actively began counseling/coaching, the occurrence of true, heartfelt change in a cheater is even rarer than I originally thought. In fact, I'm shocked at the number of revenge affairs from betrayed spouses. In my experience it's 80-85% for 'reunited' couples. I've met and spoken with people who swore up and down they were over their partner's affair and the problems had been worked out, only to jump at the chance to have one of their own.

 

Betrayal is a fire that burns long. The betrayer ALWAYS gets burned.

 

Just to play it safe, I have adopted a 'one drop' rule when it comes to infidelity. The odds are stacked overwhelmingly against the marriage burdened by it.

 

 

85% of betrayed spouses participate in revenge affairs? Whatnow?

 

I have been on forums for years, and have also had therapy. I have never heard of such a high percentage. What demographic are you working with? Most of the betrayed partners I know would not even consider a revenge affair, because hey don't want to inflict that kind of pain.

 

Also? Owl's point? It's not that you cannot say your opinion- it's just that you should not tell other people how they feel, or generalize all situations.

 

It's kinda ugly for you to use quotes around the word reconciled, and to question the people who are telling you what their own status is.

 

I won't question your belief that reconciliation is not right for you, personally. But please don't make assumptions about other people's choices the way you did- just tell what works for you. I agree it's good to share that, and let people draw their own conclusions from that.

 

( and I am an admin at another site. So I could do what you suggested, I suppose . LOL but I think there's a better way to handle that. LOL )

Edited October 12, 2012 by Decorative

[Owl]

I get that I'm often viewed as "cheerleader for reconciliation". If that's how folks view me, that's how they view me.

 

I don't consider myself one.

 

If you go and look at my posts, especially those over the last two years or so, you'll see a greater and greater trend of me telling folks that they need to make a choice...reconcile or divorce. I don't care which.

 

I can offer help with reconciliation if that's what they choose...because that's what I know...what I've done. If they choose divorce, I don't have any issue with that as a choice...but I know nothing of the divorce process so leave those threads and situations to those that do.

 

I don't tell folks that they're wrong for wanting to divorce. I don't believe I've ever said or indicated that. With that said...I also have no tolerance for people trying to tell me (or others) that we're wrong for having opted to reconcile instead.

 

If that makes me a cheerleader...I don't see how...but so be it.

[Steadfast]

85% of betrayed spouses participate in revenge affairs? Whatnow?

 

I have been on forums for years, and have also had therapy. I have never heard of such a high percentage. What demographic are you working with?

 

Mine. My personal experience. I have neither the time or interest in doing a widespread study. Besides, as you've just proven no one would believe it anyway. It must be posted on google's homepage to be 'valid'.

 

Yes, there's those ugly, sarcastic quotation marks again. =)

 

The cheerleader term is used for lack of a better description Owl. More accurate is saying you're a solid poster/contributor with great wisdom and good communication skills. I'm pretty confident that I can express myself and you won't take it as an attack...just another viewpoint gained from experience. You, and others here have helped many. It would be wrong of me to criticize that.

 

...please don't make assumptions about other people's choices the way you did- just tell what works for you.

 

Assumptions create depth of thought. If we didn't assume to a certain extent, no one would ever post a response. That was the point of my post. Better to teach someone how to think than what to think.

[Steadfast]

With that said...I also have no tolerance for people trying to tell me (or others) that we're wrong for having opted to reconcile instead.

 

I understand Owl, but you must understand that I might write that if I believe it, depending on the information posted. It's never wrong to approach a problem with love and good intentions. I believe you do. That's why I respect your advice.

[Owl]

I understand Owl, but you must understand that I might write that if I believe it, depending on the information posted. It's never wrong to approach a problem with love and good intentions. I believe you do. That's why I respect your advice.

 

No insult taken on my part. If your opinion of my views and such lead you to see me as a cheerleader/poster child for reconciliation, that's how you feel. Doesn't offend me in the least, even if I don't see it that way.

 

Just don't try to tell me that I'm wrong for having succesffully (in my eyes, if not in yours or someone else's) reconciled my marriage....not that you have, but it's been a point of contention many times here on LS with some posters. That's where my "issue" tends to lie here.

 

If that occurs...expect me to vigorously and vociferously respond to clarify.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Owl

[Decorative]

 

 

 

Assumptions create depth of thought. If we didn't assume to a certain extent, no one would ever post a response. That was the point of my post. Better to teach someone how to think than what to think.

 

I totally agree it is better to learn how to think for ourselves.

 

I just think we have different approaches and language on how to do that.

[mercy]

I don't know....I'm so afraid she won't.

 

What things are you doing/saying to reconcile with your wife?

[beenburned]

BB,

 

How are things going now?

 

Steadfast,

 

I must say I have never heard of those stats in all the many years of reading books written by MC, doctors, or even preachers.

 

The stats I have read say 35% of all marriages touched by infidelity make it successfully in the long run.(they used the 5 yr. mark after d-day)

 

I, personally, am in that 35%, with 25+ years past our d-day. H has never made me sorry I gave him that second chance.

 

And I have never had a revenge affair, nor been unfaithful at all in our entire long marriage.(even though I have had repeated offers over the years)

 

SS,

 

You brought up a good point in your post. All marriages go through many different stages in life.(some good and some bad)

 

You have to learn to grow and change in order for a marriage to be successful in the long run.(both spouses)

[worldgonewrong]

Betrayal is a fire that burns long. The betrayer ALWAYS gets burned.

 

Steadfast- can you elaborate a bit more on this assessment?

I'm genuinely curious as to your take on this. thank you.

[dprtman09]

How long did it take to get the point where you no longer took little things and blew the out of poportion in your mind? ie not staying awake to see you after work, to tired/pain for sex, the damn beep of a text message etc.

It took about 6-7 months after the end of the EA. A couple of things popped up that were suspicious at best, but further investigation proved them to be as a result of a trouble making former friend of my W. I will say, though, that I continued to monitor her activities for a while and, as I've said before, even to this day, I have little "relapses" from time to time. The good thing is that I can discuss them with my wife and she tells me her feelings about them WITHOUT the emotional turmoil that we had before. Stepping back and looking at our former situation from the outside (as a woman and a man rather than man & wife) allows us to apply more logical standards to what happened or what will be. I used the "stepping out" technique to explain the motives of the OM to myself and to her during the EA. It worked for both of us. It is a wonderful thing when two people can calmly discuss such a loaded subject. Being able to do so further strengthens our belief that the decision to fight it out was right. We face adversity of all kinds in a different way now. I see that she actually trusts me to guide her when she's troubled and I feel safe that she has seen me at my worst and can better understand me when I'm troubled.

[dprtman09]

OK, good people, I've see everything again today and am further gratified by the intelligent discussion taking place here. With regards to the various statitics shown in the thread. Figures don't lie, but liars do figure. Each of us only really knows what happened to us. We also know that we are not alone or unique. So, using statistics is only one tool. In my case, 33% of my marriages worked. The good thing is that the most difficult obstacle of all was overcome and that's why the aforementioned statistic will remain the same. I am reasonably certain that I was cheated on in my first marriage (it came out years later) and that didn't work. I believe that life prepares you for adversity if you're paying attention. I also believe that you'll know what's worth achieving if you're paying attention. It took me 50 years to find the right woman and the achievement was too important to sacrifice. I found out that my wife's desire for a husband and a family outweighed her desire to continue her errant behavior. She had to prove to me that the aforementioned was true and I had to prove to her that I would pay attention. So, I am glad that much of this thread is positive and will continue to monitor it as time allows.

[dprtman09]

To add to my earlier comment to underwater2010: "Stepping out" is not easy when you're in it up to your eyeballs. The waves of emotion are like a storm surge. You have to stand up to yourself first.

[Steadfast]

Steadfast- can you elaborate a bit more on this assessment? I'm genuinely curious as to your take on this. thank you.

 

The law of averages always catches up with us wgw. It doesn't matter who or where. No one can escape the consequences of their actions. No one.

 

The problem lies with people who demand that 'justice be served'. Many truly want to see the betrayer suffer...to feel what they felt. If that isn't seen or heard, many come to the conclusion that there is no reward for right and no repercussion for wrong. This eventually leads to many doubting the worth of their own existence. All because someone lied!

 

In my experience, this keeps the betrayed imprisoned in self-pity and bitterness, making them a slave to their own pain. The best recourse for the betrayed is to defeat the pain and move up. Not being dependent on others for our happiness or self-esteem is the freedom we must seek.

 

The greatest tool for success is humility. Life isn't fair, but we can be.

 

Figures don't lie, but liars do figure. Each of us only really knows what happened to us. We also know that we are not alone or unique.

 

That statement contradicts itself. Truth is, one could interview a million people and the summary would still be based on personal experience.

 

And therefore, open to speculation and/or ridicule. Big deal!

 

Behavior is a series of patterns that we all learn. It doesn't take much to break them down into groups. Trying to generalize/personalize is foolish.

[dprtman09]

I find the reference to a "cry for help" interesting. One of the things I felt was intense grief over the apparent death of an entity--our marriage. Just as suicidal behavior is sometimes a cry for help, so may be the attempted suicide of a relationship.

[dprtman09]

I've gotten back to all of this, again. Again, I am impressed by the dialog. Heresdathing, again. The comments regarding self-respect, fear or the lack thereof, and forgiving (not forgetting) are numerous. That is what this is all about. Every BS has to know that a WS is normally not their fault. If a BS decides to fight the affair and win, they have to respect themselves first. Just because the person whose opinion you need most has done something horribly wrong, it does not mean that YOU are any less of a person. The entity you are fighting for is not you or the WS, it's the marriage. You have a right to fight for anything that is important to you and, at least for a while, you may be all you have. Granted, the WS may not agree in the long run, but if they do, then both parties are obliged to fight for the marriage, not each other's level of power. Much of the turmoil in an affair related conflict is about power plays. It is part of the process and must run its course. If a couple can get past the power plays, then the real work starts. I see people in this and other threads who are into power. If that's where you're stuck, then your situation may be irreconcileable. Any ideas out there?

[dprtman09]

This post really struck a chord for me. I'm coming from the perspective of the WS, but I am deeply and fully commuted to working through this and fixing my marriage. Unfortunately, we've been separated for 2 years, so my work is cut out for me. It's been a tumultuous 2 years, with every conceivable bump in the road and set-back. But my W still hadn't filed. I finally came back to her full bore, committing every ounce of strength and energy I had to fixing everything. Giving her my entire heart and soul and promising to spend my life being by her side helping her work through the pain I put on her.

 

The reason your post hit home for me was that it sort of described my relationship with my W. We always had intense chemistry, compatibility and friendship....and we still do. But, like many younger couples who build lives and start families, we lost sight of each other and stopped working for each other. I became completely responsible for my wife's happiness, and she admits this. It was a lot to shoulder, to have a person so overwhelmed by the life we were living that she couldn't ve happy without me MAKING her happy. That ultimately sort of pushed me away.

 

Don't get me wrong....in no way am I blaming my W for my infidelity. However, she is an important variable in the equation. For our entire relationship, I was fiercely loyal to her. But I couldn't keep going in the direction we were going. At the same time, we had a number of intense life stressors happening simultaneously (health scare, death in the family, business struggling, both of us being in school, having our 3rd child), and it just caved in.

 

I had a short EA. The W found out, although I sort of let her find out. Then i had a situation that was sort of a prelude to a PA, but nothing happened. W found out, and packed up our kids and moved to MI to stay with her parents. Once she left, I was sort of in shock (thought she would at least try to fight for our marriage) and not operating rationally for a long time. I almost immediately had a PA, a fling, and after we had been apart for about 4 months, i told my W I wanted to work on things, and told her about the PA. Things went up and down after that. Lots of details, but let me sum up by saying that what i learned through this process is that I love my W more than anything in the world, more than I love myself, and I do not want to live another day without her.

 

So, back to your post, I see the infidelity for what it is in the big picture....sort of a cry for help. Not in ANY way justifying it, just pointing out what drove it. I wasnt trying to get any on the side, or get away with anything. I was just very lost. I see it now as an opportunity to rebuild what was always a great relationship that lost its way and never had a chance to grow. My W and I still get along so well, and can be very close when her anger toward me isnt right on the surface. We're best friends. And we have 3 very young kids. I truly hope that my W can open her heart back up to me. I feel like she wants to, but is afraid.

 

I don't know....I'm so afraid she won't.

 

OK, "BB", I tried to reply, but I'm not terribly adept at getting things in the right place on blogs, so here goes. I posted a reply to this post on page 5. It was supposed to be here, but it's on page 5. Hope you find it.

Edited April 1, 2013 by dprtman09

[dprtman09]

The law of averages always catches up with us wgw. It doesn't matter who or where. No one can escape the consequences of their actions. No one.

 

The problem lies with people who demand that 'justice be served'. Many truly want to see the betrayer suffer...to feel what they felt. If that isn't seen or heard, many come to the conclusion that there is no reward for right and no repercussion for wrong. This eventually leads to many doubting the worth of their own existence. All because someone lied!

 

In my experience, this keeps the betrayed imprisoned in self-pity and bitterness, making them a slave to their own pain. The best recourse for the betrayed is to defeat the pain and move up. Not being dependent on others for our happiness or self-esteem is the freedom we must seek.

 

The greatest tool for success is humility. Life isn't fair, but we can be.

 

 

 

That statement contradicts itself. Truth is, one could interview a million people and the summary would still be based on personal experience.

 

And therefore, open to speculation and/or ridicule. Big deal!

 

Behavior is a series of patterns that we all learn. It doesn't take much to break them down into groups. Trying to generalize/personalize is foolish.

 

What you may have missed here is that I am referring to many of the statistics that are brought in from time to time. The surveyors are going to get statistics that fit their model. You are absolutely right that individual opinions are the only truths. Therefore, each of us can only speculate based on the experience of others. Trying to generalize can be foolish, but personalizing is necessary.

[JourneyLady]

I have seen it so many times on these boards, the betrayed spouse tries to stay in the marriage, and even comes to the boards to say how happy they now are, how they truly are as happy as ever. Then 1 year, 2 years later many of them are back saying they could not live with the cancer that ate at their soul, that they could not pretend anymore that the marriage was the equivalent in that special way that it was before the infidelity.

 

Skewed view - because if they are now happy with their spouse, they will probably not come back but stick with whatever program they got into that worked for the marriage. People come here to ask advice and complain. If they don't need advice and are not here to complain, there isn't much to talk about unless you are trying to help others. Plus, losing your spouse, there is one less person to discuss things with - so they come here.

 

And in real life, if someone you know had infidelity in their marriage and repaired the marriage happily, you are not likely to see that. What you here are the stories of the betrayals that were never healed.

 

That's just the way life is. You hear about the f**** up operations and very little about the ones that worked. Some people in my family do not even know I had my gall bladder out. But you can bet they'd know if something was left in me during surgery that wasn't supposed to be!

 

It's why we mostly hear bad news from the media...

[dprtman09]

Skewed view - because if they are now happy with their spouse, they will probably not come back but stick with whatever program they got into that worked for the marriage. People come here to ask advice and complain. If they don't need advice and are not here to complain, there isn't much to talk about unless you are trying to help others. Plus, losing your spouse, there is one less person to discuss things with - so they come here.

 

And in real life, if someone you know had infidelity in their marriage and repaired the marriage happily, you are not likely to see that. What you here are the stories of the betrayals that were never healed.

 

That's just the way life is. You hear about the f**** up operations and very little about the ones that worked. Some people in my family do not even know I had my gall bladder out. But you can bet they'd know if something was left in me during surgery that wasn't supposed to be!

 

It's why we mostly hear bad news from the media...

 

BINGO!!! That's precisely why I started this thread. I respect the rights of the posters here to use this as part of their therapy, if you will, but I thought it would be productive to illustrate that one can be here without having to cry about a situation. Rather, one could rejoice in a different situation. That's all.

[dichotomy]

 

The problem lies with people who demand that 'justice be served'. Many truly want to see the betrayer suffer...to feel what they felt. If that isn't seen or heard, many come to the conclusion that there is no reward for right and no repercussion for wrong.

 

 

This was very powerful and something I am/have struggled with.

[Betrayed&Stayed]

I don't believe anyone happily reconciles. I think the ones that stay together are simply more afraid of being alone, afraid of the heartbreak and afraid to start over and they simply 'decide' they would rather go through the loss of exclusivity and being eaten inside by this cancer than to face the fear of starting over and handling life alone possibly.

 

I say this because I believe inside that everyone knows that one of the most special things about falling in love and getting married is that special exclusivity, that special bond, knowing that since the time you fell in love that you have only been intimate with each other, only shared that special thing with your spouse. There is a special feelling and bond that comes from that and once it is gone, IT IS GONE FOREVER, it can never be gotten back, and I'm sorry, but to me that bond is a HUGE, special part of marriage and happiness without it is never truly going to exist between two married people.

...

 

There is nothing that can replace that special foundation, nothing!!! Once it's gone it is gone for good, and you can convince yourself all you want that you are now happy and don't need it or count on it as a true grounding for your marriage and life, ...

 

...

 

Sure, they can EXIST, can GET BY, for whatever reasons, but to me, once that special bond is gone, a special part of that marriage is gone for good, and it's never coming back, never again will you have it. You can tell yourself that it doesn't really bother you, bu5t I will never believe that really. That's not a happy marriage and partnership in my nook, definitely not what happy marriage is all about and I could never accept that loss and stay in a marriage.

 

You are absolutely correct. That "specialness" is gone forever. As a BH, I do see it that way. This was one of the last hurdles that I had to clear to reach a sense of peace. I will have a relapse from time to time. I allow myself that.

 

A marriage has many facets, and sexual exclusiveness is one of many. Different people have different "deal breakers" for their marriage and reconciliation. This is one of YOUR "deal breakers" and I understand and respect that. I've dealt with it first hand. With that being said, don't project your deal breakers onto me and other BSs.

 

I'm 5 years post D-day and I'm happily married/reconciled. It wasn't an easy road to travel. It was extremely difficult, and required both of us to go through growing pains. I don't like to use the term "better"? What is "better"? Our marriage is stronger in many facets, but weaker in others. I' will say that my marriage is more authentic and deliberate than before.

 

To the OP's point, it can be done. Having gone through it myself, I believe that the success rate must be pretty low. For those that do not reconcile, I don't cite fear as the cause. It is because it is the nature of adultery = destruction. A marriage is not likely to bounce back after a nuclear bomb has been dropped on the BS.

[Athens]

I believe that true love conquers all- I really and truly do- so if you are with the one that you truly love, you can and will get through it-if you are not then you will not. Its a pretty simple truth that I have learned the hard way-