Need help? --Let's talk--Let's share

[Guitarjeff]

Thank you.

 

I don't feel the need to defend my marriage. I spoke from my heart and I spoke truthfully. Simply stated I adore that man. I still believe to this day he is a gift from God. I'm a blessed woman.

 

And he is a very lucky man. You express yourself with grace, depth, and a loving nature. A lucky man he is, indeed.

[road]

Thank you.

 

I don't feel the need to defend my marriage. I spoke from my heart and I spoke truthfully. Simply stated I adore that man. I still believe to this day he is a gift from God. I'm a blessed woman.

 

 

Yes all you say is true. But you slept with the OM. All the pain you felt once the fog cleared was real and it could of hurt you as much as the pain your BH felt.

 

Though it was a different pain. They way you are having a better marriage now post affair will never undo the sex you had with the OM.

 

Think about this did you need to have an affair to make your marriage better. Could you of learned the skills to have a better marriage without your PA? I think so.

[mercy]

Yes all you say is true. But you slept with the OM. All the pain you felt once the fog cleared was real and it could of hurt you as much as the pain your BH felt.

 

Though it was a different pain. They way you are having a better marriage now post affair will never undo the sex you had with the OM.

 

Think about this did you need to have an affair to make your marriage better. Could you of learned the skills to have a better marriage without your PA? I think so.

 

I think you misread my posts or you have me confused. I've never had an OM. OM, OtherMan, right? Meaning I've never had an affair. It's just not in me. PA, PhysicalAffair, right?

 

But you do bring up a good point. Turning your question around to my h who did have an affair. No, he did not have to have an affair to make our marriage better. And yes, he could have learned better skills. coulda woulda shoulda can drive a person insane.

 

Before the affair I wasn't in a good place, as I said earlier, I was thinking I wanted out of the marriage and I made no secret of those feelings. h's hurt at my feelings concerning our marriage eventually turned to anger, anger led him to an affair, a choice that nearly destroyed him and me. He still many years later carries the shame.

 

But something strange happened when I was made aware of the affair, I felt an overwhelming sense of love for him and a terrible sense of loss. I saw a wonderful man in front of me and I knew right then that no matter what the pain we were not only going to get through this we were going to soar. And soar we have.

 

I told no one, I wanted no outside influences whether they be positive or negative, I wanted us to do this on our own. People saw the difference almost immediately. Our friends and family thought since their had been a death in the family during that time that the death had been a wake up call for us, brought us together. It was in fact love that brought us together, we used the affair for our benefit. We are where we are not because of the affair but in spite of it.

 

No matter that you were wrong about me having an affair, you did post to me some great thoughts. So thank you for that.

[nofool4u]

Not getting after him, just arguing that his own views don't apply to everyone as he suggests by saying that no one can have a happy M after one spouse has cheated.

 

They are called opinions, and everyone has them, and are formed from their own experiences. Some see it one way, others another way.

 

Its my opinion that nobody can have a truly happy marriage after infidelity, but I know there are people that think they do have a happy one. Its just an opinion.

 

My opinion is even those that say they have a happy marriage after infidelity still struggle with mind movies, triggers, and sometimes some doubt. Hence how can it truly be happy?

 

Can it get to a point where, for the most part, the BS has forgotten about it from day to day? Sure, I think that is entirely possible. Just like if I have surgery, I can recover 99% and feel great. Why only 99%? Because I now have a scar that reminds me what I went through, and while I feel great day to day, once in a while that scar does either itch or has a little twinge of pain. But overall, I feel ok.

 

Infidelity is that scar that reminds you that your spouse f****d someone else.

 

And that can't be truly happy for the BS. Happy maybe, but I can't see it being completely happy.

[woinlove]

They are called opinions, and everyone has them, and are formed from their own experiences. Some see it one way, others another way.

 

Its my opinion that nobody can have a truly happy marriage after infidelity, but I know there are people that think they do have a happy one. Its just an opinion.

 

My opinion is even those that say they have a happy marriage after infidelity still struggle with mind movies, triggers, and sometimes some doubt. Hence how can it truly be happy?

 

Can it get to a point where, for the most part, the BS has forgotten about it from day to day? Sure, I think that is entirely possible. Just like if I have surgery, I can recover 99% and feel great. Why only 99%? Because I now have a scar that reminds me what I went through, and while I feel great day to day, once in a while that scar does either itch or has a little twinge of pain. But overall, I feel ok.

 

Infidelity is that scar that reminds you that your spouse f****d someone else.

 

And that can't be truly happy for the BS. Happy maybe, but I can't see it being completely happy.

 

Yes, you can have an opinion, or a view, about how others feel about their own life. You can't know for sure unless you are inside their head or you observe and listen to them very carefully over time. I tend to go for the observing/listening carefully approach myself. My opinion is the listening approach is much more accurate than having a theory, based on your own experience, about who can be happy and who can't and applying it to all people, whether you know anything much about them or not.

Edited July 23, 2012 by woinlove

[Ninja'sHusband]

Didn't read everything, just responding to GuitarJeff's first couple replies.

 

What about kids? You talks of reconciliation reasons don't even bring children up. For me that was the #1 reason to try to reconcile.

[NotCamelot]

People saw the difference almost immediately. Our friends and family thought since their had been a death in the family during that time that the death had been a wake up call for us, brought us together. It was in fact love that brought us together, we used the affair for our benefit. We are where we are not because of the affair but in spite of it.

 

I can identify with this completely. In fact, I discovered my W's A, and 1 week later our good friend lost his wife to cancer.

 

We have been rebuilding since d-day, but several friends have asked if his wife's death was what brought my W and I closer together. Our affection and closeness has been noticed even though we were not aware of any difference in our outward appearance.

 

So, it my not be the "normal" thing to happen, and I am certainly NOT glad it happened, but we are staying together for the "long haul". We have used the horrible event to build a stronger marriage.

 

It kind of reminds me of Robn Williams in "The World According to Garp", after the plane hits his just purchased house......."...now it's disaster proofed!" I feel like, when we make it through all the hurt and rebuilding, nothing will be able to hurt us again.

[alexandria35]

Four years ago, I had an issue with an OM and my Wife. I had a thread and it went on for quite a while. All kinds of stuff was said and none of it surprised me. It was sort of a lens for focusing my thoughts.

Well, now my wife and I are happier than ever. All aspects of our life together have improved. This is all because she decided to be responsible to herself, me, our son, and her career. We handle things differently in some ways and I'm not going to lie and say that I am not insecure at any given moment. It happens.

The point of this is as follows. Many of you helped me even when we disagreed. Therefore, I feel compelled to discuss what we did to make things work after a traumatic disruption of our relationship. The floor is open.

 

IT CAN BE DONE, THOUGH THERE ARE THOSE OF YOU WHO THINK IT CAN'T OR ARE AFRAID TO TRY.

 

 

LOL...so nice of this poster to make this offer to discuss what worked for him. A couple of posters immediately showed interest in what he had to say and he never even bothered to respond to them or come back to this thread. Nice to see that the thread has turned into a good discussion anyways.

[road]

I think you misread my posts or you have me confused. I've never had an OM. OM, OtherMan, right? Meaning I've never had an affair. It's just not in me. PA, PhysicalAffair, right?

 

But you do bring up a good point. Turning your question around to my h who did have an affair. No, he did not have to have an affair to make our marriage better. And yes, he could have learned better skills. coulda woulda shoulda can drive a person insane.

 

Before the affair I wasn't in a good place, as I said earlier, I was thinking I wanted out of the marriage and I made no secret of those feelings. h's hurt at my feelings concerning our marriage eventually turned to anger, anger led him to an affair, a choice that nearly destroyed him and me. He still many years later carries the shame.

 

But something strange happened when I was made aware of the affair, I felt an overwhelming sense of love for him and a terrible sense of loss. I saw a wonderful man in front of me and I knew right then that no matter what the pain we were not only going to get through this we were going to soar. And soar we have.

 

I told no one, I wanted no outside influences whether they be positive or negative, I wanted us to do this on our own. People saw the difference almost immediately. Our friends and family thought since their had been a death in the family during that time that the death had been a wake up call for us, brought us together. It was in fact love that brought us together, we used the affair for our benefit. We are where we are not because of the affair but in spite of it.

 

No matter that you were wrong about me having an affair, you did post to me some great thoughts. So thank you for that.

Sorry for my error.

[firemanq]

I think I may be finally coming to this POV. It would be so nice to not have that stigma with a new woman...but I'm afraid I'm fairly jaded now even to new people =\ The other big thing that scares me is getting in trouble for talking to the new woman about my ex...whom I've spent 1/2 of my life with so far. How can you avoid talking about someone you spent half of your life with??

 

You don't at first. When the wife & I broke up, I was devastated, even though it was best for me. The first dates I went on could not have been enjoyable for my date. I spent most of hte time talking about the x-wife. I found out later that some women wanted to date me because of how broken I was. They felt that if I was that in love with her, I would be a really good catch. Apparantly they were right, my GF and I have been together more than 20 years.

 

It does get better, it just takes time. You need to get out there, pain and all. One day, you will stop. You will look around and day it is, you will smile and think " What a great day today is!!!" And it will be a great day. You will still have crap days, but tomorrow will be better. Trust me, it really will. Then one day, you will see the x-bitch and notice how sad she looks, how downtrodden she looks. How ugly she it and you will smile, a big smile. Hell, you may even sing "Zippity Do Dah!" I did.

[beenburned]

The latest stats say only 35% of marriages touched by infidelity make it in the long run.(they used 5 years after d-day for the stats)

 

I applaud the ones that can rebuild, and have a stronger and healthier marriage than they had before.

 

I have never been 100% happy about things in my marriage, even before H cheated.(I don't think that is even possible)

 

And for the exclusiveness of only having each other sexually:

 

We both had sex with other people before we ever married, so we can't say we have only ever been with each other sexually.

 

I am in the 35% of happily reconciled marriages.

 

H was unfaithful in the early years of our marriage. We have now been married well over 35 years. H changed completely after d-day, and did everything in his power to make our marriage and me happy and fulfilled.

 

To tell people reconciliation it is not possible or achievable is just wrong.(and is your opinion only)

 

But for the people that consider infidelity deal breakers permanently, they need to divorce their Ws's if their is no hope of forgiveness or reconciliation.

[dprtman09]

OK, it's been about three months since I started this thread. I am gratified to see that some interest was taken. "Heresdathing" (my website): Many of the posts are all about anger and fear and bad things. Did it ever occur to any of you that there may be traits about both of us that WE CHOOSE not to have to search for anywhere else? Did it ever occur to anyone that to stay in and fight against a difficult situation takes a lot more guts than stepping away? I would not say that the situation is always reconcileable, but I would say that it deserves more thought than some people give it. I hated what she did to me. I questioned myself and my courage until I realized that it wasn't my fault. She realized what she was doing and stopped. Only I could know her well enough to know that. That's part of the new foundation. This was an EA. If it were a PA, things would have been different--I guarand**ntee it! We still talk about this from time to time, but the emotional content has faded away. Our common sense and respect has taken over. I respect her for coming clean and re-affirming our marriage and she respects me for forgiving (not forgetting) her major blunder. I respect myself for sticking to the belief that through it all, she was (and is) the woman I thought I married and that our past was reason to plan a future. She respects herself for realizing her resposibilities to the relationship and to her family. These are a few of the major items that had to be hashed out between us to establish the ground rules to our future relationship. If anyone out there thinks a coward can go through that--well--there's nothing I could say that wouldn't earn me a private message from the site moderator. I'll be back in a while to see where this goes. Thank you all--again.

[dprtman09]

Believe it, spunky.

[dprtman09]

I don't believe anyone happily reconciles. I think the ones that stay together are simply more afraid of being alone, afraid of the heartbreak and afraid to start over and they simply 'decide' they would rather go through the loss of exclusivity and being eaten inside by this cancer than to face the fear of starting over and handling life alone possibly.

 

I say this because I believe inside that everyone knows that one of the most special things about falling in love and getting married is that special exclusivity, that special bond, knowing that since the time you fell in love that you have only been intimate with each other, only shared that special thing with your spouse. There is a special feelling and bond that comes from that and once it is gone, IT IS GONE FOREVER, it can never be gotten back, and I'm sorry, but to me that bond is a HUGE, special part of marriage and happiness without it is never truly going to exist between two married people. So I think that people who are weak or have fears of being alone or losing that person because of being dependent on them emotionally or financially simply choose to accept the misery rather than to face all the other fears that they are afraid of.

 

Of course, people want to sell books telling these people in hell that they too can be happy again and accept that they no longer share that special exclusivity with their spouse, but they are making money spouting that stuff.

 

And also, you will never see someone who has succumbed to the fear and can't leave or don't feel they are worth a spouse that they can share that special exclusivity connection with come to these forums and admit the truth. Who is going to come here and say, "Yeah, I am still in my marriage because my self-esteem is so low that I have too much fear to leave"? No one is going to admit such a thing. Of course they are going to say, "We really have a wonderful marriage again, we have so much love now, we grew", and such stuff as that.

 

Sorry, but you feel you are worth a spouse who would never be unfaithful to you, and demand it, or you don't. No way will I believe that anyone can truly be happy after the loss of that special, special exclusivity that is at the heart and ground of every marriage. Through tough times, through fights and disagreements, through the loss of loved ones, jobs, anything, you and your spouse always have the special little thing, that special connection, knowing you have only been with each other since the time you fell in love.

 

There is nothing that can replace that special foundation, nothing!!! Once it's gone it is gone for good, and you can convince yourself all you want that you are now happy and don't need it or count on it as a true grounding for your marriage and life, but I think the people who stood strong and forced themselves to move on because they know that they deserve a life partner that has never and would never cheat on them, well they know the truth. You can see it in the responses of those who know they deserve better and are not willing to live a life in a marriage that can never have that special connection, that special exclusivity again.

 

It would be so refreshing to see someone come here and just simply say, "yeah, I a too weak and afraid to respect myself enough to demand that I have the most special connection with my spouse that I give my life to" I am staying in my marriage because of fear of liniless or financial reasons, and yep, it hurts like hell when we watch a movie together and the subject turns to infidelity, or when we are around friends and I can't help wondering to myself "does he or she want him, does he/she find him attractive"? "What things happened when they were together that he/she didn't tell me, did she rub his back lovingly while he was on top of her? Did she do things for him that he hasn't told me about? Will I ever really know the truth? Does he'she think about them, or some sexual act that he/she loved and never told me about?

 

I'm sorry, but I don't think anyone who lives in that energy-eating cancer can ever truly be in a happy marriage again.

 

Sure, they can EXIST, can GET BY, for whatever reasons, but to me, once that special bond is gone, a special part of that marriage is gone for good, and it's never coming back, never again will you have it. You can tell yourself that it doesn't really bother you, bu5t I will never believe that really. That's not a happy marriage and partnership in my nook, definitely not what happy marriage is all about and I could never accept that loss and stay in a marriage.

 

Believe it, spunky! By the way, I mis-posted this elsewhere in this thread--it belongs here.

[dprtman09]

:D

I had an ok marriage before the affair, I have an awesome marriage now. We took a lot for granted before the affair. To be honest I was in a bad place and wasn't really sure I wanted to be married anymore, he of course felt that. A man not valued is a lost man. He was humbled by what he did, so ashamed, I was surprised it hurt so bad. Surprised how bad I wanted my marriage.

 

With counseling, marriage, individual, we came to a place of such love I never imagined. He craved my respect, I loved him enough to give it to him. He is after all a great loving and kind man, he's one of the good guys. Wish I would have appreciated that before. But I have a lifetime to show him. Thank God for mercy.

 

Much as it pains me to say we would not be where we are today had we not gone through the difficult times. Sometimes we need to be brought to our knees to see the love in front of us.

 

So no I wouldn't change a thing.

 

I'm seeing much of what I thought from a woman's point of view and that's interesting. In fact, there are several things I couldn't have said better myself! Put "woman" where she has "man" and she says it for me. Where did this one come from? I know what you went through and I heartily congratulate you on your ability to go through it. Courage is an expensive commodity, but a price well-paid.

[dprtman09]

Now, let's get something straight. I don't give a flying you-know-what about swingers or open marriages or such. This is about plain ordinary everyday two people get married marriages. If you want to talk about other types of relationships, there are plenty of other intelligent threads to post on. Go there--do that. Intimacy is always on a fine line. The level that has to exist in a marriage requires more work and thought than most people realize at first. If two people don't figure this out, then they may be doomed to one or both of them trying to find it elsewhere. Being given a second chance is a blessing. If you blow that, then there is no hope.

[dprtman09]

LOL...so nice of this poster to make this offer to discuss what worked for him. A couple of posters immediately showed interest in what he had to say and he never even bothered to respond to them or come back to this thread. Nice to see that the thread has turned into a good discussion anyways.

 

OOOhhh! that hurt! I did this on purpose. Time does not always permit me to monitor. When I do get the time, like now, I get back. What i've seen is that posters have their own ideas and some agree and some disagree with mine. By replying to those ideas, it is hoped that I will show due respect to all of you. Also, what worked for me will come out. I'll be back!!!

[Decorative]

I am not much of a faker, and I suck at poker, so all I can say is that while I respect GuitarJeff's view, I am in a happily reconciled marriage. And in my case-

I had every option to walk away and be done with the marriage. I chose to stay because I love my spouse and wanted to stay married to him, and I knew he was moving heaven and earth to make it right.

 

But we were separated , at my request, for six months, because I did not want to attempt reconciliation unless I was absolutely sure he was worth the effort.

 

And he was.

[mercy]

:D

 

I'm seeing much of what I thought from a woman's point of view and that's interesting. In fact, there are several things I couldn't have said better myself! Put "woman" where she has "man" and she says it for me.

 

Where did this one come from?

 

I'm a gift from God!

 

 

I know what you went through and I heartily congratulate you on your ability to go through it.

 

Thank you so much for that!

 

Courage is an expensive commodity, but a price well-paid.

 

Amen to that!

 

 

^^^ In bold.

[mercy]

Now, let's get something straight. I don't give a flying you-know-what about swingers or open marriages or such.

 

Be nice!

 

Just because something isn't right for us doesn't mean it's not right for another.

 

It's all about honesty and integrity. I have much respect for both of those traits.

[worldgonewrong]

I really wholeheartedly agree with Guitarjeff's take on infidelity. He cuts right to the core.

 

My personal opinion is that the acceptance of infidelity is like this:

The WS has force-fed you poison. You pass out, almost on the brink of death, and when you awake, suddenly the WS is there stroking the BS's feverish brow and saying, "I didn't really mean it."

 

It's like a weird inverted form of Stockholm Syndrome for the BS who sticks it out with the WS, in my own opinion. You know now from experience that this person is capable of poisoning you, but you live for the days where he/she is not metaphorically slipping arsenic in your tea...because those are such wonderful days!

Eh...not for me. no thanks.

[underwater2010]

How long did it take to get the point where you no longer took little things and blew the out of poportion in your mind? ie not staying awake to see you after work, to tired/pain for sex, the damn beep of a text message etc.

[Decorative]

I can understand those for whom cheating is a dealbreaker, and divorcing can be absolutely the right decision for them. But I've also read about successful reconciliation stories here and think some couples can come out happy and strong together. I'm happy for you, mercy.

 

I really wholeheartedly agree with Guitarjeff's take on infidelity. He cuts right to the core.

 

My personal opinion is that the acceptance of infidelity is like this:

The WS has force-fed you poison. You pass out, almost on the brink of death, and when you awake, suddenly the WS is there stroking the BS's feverish brow and saying, "I didn't really mean it."

 

It's like a weird inverted form of Stockholm Syndrome for the BS who sticks it out with the WS, in my own opinion. You know now from experience that this person is capable of poisoning you, but you live for the days where he/she is not metaphorically slipping arsenic in your tea...because those are such wonderful days!

Eh...not for me. no thanks.

 

And I think that when people have this view- it is absolutely right that they recognize it for themselves, and get out of the marriage. Absolutely. It take strength to leave, and strength to stay. Neither is a course for weaklings.

 

And I think that they should maybe not project their own feelings onto other people who chose differently.

[Owl]

And I think that when people have this view- it is absolutely right that they recognize it for themselves, and get out of the marriage. Absolutely. It take strength to leave, and strength to stay. Neither is a course for weaklings.

 

And I think that they should maybe not project their own feelings onto other people who chose differently.

 

I could not possibly agree more with this. I could (should have?) written this myself.

 

Not everyone should try to reconcile...and not everyone needs divorce to heal.

 

And no one should tell others that they're wrong for feeling how they feel because they see recovery as a different path from their own.

[StormySeas]

One of the most interesting discussions I had with my H after D-Day occurred when I said that leaving was so much harder than staying. Thinking about our son, visitation schedules, fighting over his upbringing, worrying about the impact of a D on him, splitting up the finances, etc. My H looked at me in shock and said "I would have thought it would be so much harder for you to stay than to leave." For him, he looked at my decision and knew that I always said (and firmly believed prior to D-Day) that I could never live with a cheater. I am cute, smart and successful. I can find another man. But the fact is that my H is the man that I chose to marry in good times and in bad. He is the man that I decided to have a child with and the man that I worked very hard to turn into a wonderful father. For me, 3 weeks removed from D-Day, the biggest disconnect is having my H in our home and thinking about how I would never ever EVER have thought that there was a chance I would have allowed a cheater to stay in my house and life. But life is fluid. And people make mistakes. I thought that there were mistakes that I just could not get through, but now, I'm just not sure that's the case. The fact is that I love my H very much. There were 3 people involved in the affair -- my H, the skank, and me. I got married at 25 and never gave one thought to protecting our marriage. There was much that I could have done differently, particularly since having our child. At the time, I thought it was enough that I was working full-time and caring for our colicky son the rest of the day/night. I was exhausted and my H was just not ready to be a father to a difficult baby. I should have demanded more from him, and he should have given more. We should have found time to just have a dinner alone to talk and work on us. But on the nights we got sitters, there were group dinners and events and things that we thought we needed to attend. We both made choices, and we both were not smart. I have been astounded now that I'm the proud owner of about 20 books on infidelity and marriage to read that we basically set ourselves up for one of us to have an affair. We just didn't work at protecting anything. Was he the one that had the A? Yes. Did he lie about it for two years after because he was NC and thought he could just prove his love day after day enough to make up for the lies? Yes. The result is that I'm in such immense pain right now that it truly feels like a death of a very dear friend.

 

The fact is, that in Act 8 of our marriage, it died. Will it resurrect? In what form? Or will it stay dead? I don't know the answers to those questions right now. But I am a rational individual that knows that I still love my husband very much. When the details of his A finally came out, that love didn't go away, which is why I am fighting. Nothing will ever be the same. I understand that and I don't want it to be the same. If I can get over this, which again, I don't know the answer to, then I don't want anything to be the same. I want us to protect us. I want us to remember the agony of all of this and develop a pride that we got through it. Or I want us to try, realize that I just can't get over the betrayal, and move on with our lives with sadness, but no bitterness. If I filed for divorce today, because that special bond in my marriage is forever gone and will never come back, then I think I would ultimately be disappointed in myself. Disappointed that I didn't try -- for my sake and for our son's sake -- to see if this was something that we could work through. There are no guarantees in life. There's no guarantee that my H won't cheat on me again. There's no guarantee that if we got the big D and I found someone else that they wouldn't cheat on me either. I have no illusions that reconciliation will be awesome. I understand that I will think about this for the rest of my life. That I'll watch a tv program or movie and someone will cheat on someone and my heart will ache. That happens now, and I just don't imagine that going away. But if I can grab hold of my H's hand, sadly look in his eyes and see his sadness at my hurt mirrored back at me while we watch the tv program or movie together, then I think I may be in a better marriage than we had before. Life pre our son was fun. We were young, successful, and just enjoying life together. Our son was the first tribulation we had to face together, and it broke us apart. This is tribulation number two. Let's see what happens and when faced with tribulation number three, see what happens again. If we aren't two people fighting tooth and nail together to protect ourselves and our marriage, then I'll move on. But I'll have tried.