The past that affects the present and the present that shapes the future.

June 30, 2004

And maybe that's not even the right course of action for you Kia, but you do have my sympathies. I know how hard it is to need support and not get it, to find it in another person and to have to say goodbye for one reason or another.

I'm glad you liked the poem nubianangel, I have many others I can share. My father, aged 84, is a poet, and historian here in town, though he is now retired from writing. He put together a collection of poems called (women who run with wolves) and it has some rather bizarre collections of macabre and strange poems. I love poety, it has saved my life on many occasions. I have written some of my own and may succeed in having some of it published in The Courtland Review, will know fairly soon. I have written some about my struggles overcoming various things, including but not limited to, the varied hues and tones of infidelity and how it can effect a person. It is a healing and spurging endeavor to write in any manner. Best Regards!

June 30, 2004

Nubianangel, I was feeling really down and didn't feel like posting anything. I read your posts, and Spock's and fanou's, talking about how you were all coping and being strong after the splits with your MM's and I just felt like s**t because I haven't done it.

I want to be where you are but don't have the COURAGE to do it. I still have the long goodbye letter I wrote in May. I read it and reread it and I could barely handle just doing that.

You said something that really struck a nerve, how eventually all of the focus becomes HIM. It's true, that's why my cell phone was on and next to my pillow last Friday night at 2:00 a.m. I've told him that he can call me anytime day or night and I will be there for him. I go back and forth with who exactly is manipulating who, but he definitely has the upper hand. I was the one locked in the back of his truck....not him. He is getting a little obsessive, as Deb has been trying to tell me. Yesterday he wanted to relive Friday night and talk about all the details (the ones he remembered anyway), and told me that all day Saturday he resisted showering because he wanted to keep my scent on him. I don't know if that's normal or not? I am soooooo far away from normal I can't tell the difference.

Therresa, I really appreciate your support, you've been more than kind and you have absolutely no reason on earth to be nice to me at all.

I felt really sad last night: I've been online penpals with a SINGLE Lawyer from L.A. He's successful, nice looking and has a great sense of humour. He's invited me to come down and visit him numerous times even offered to pay for my ticket but I told him I don't know him well enough to fly halfway across the continent. He said no problem, he would fly up here to Canada and vist me. Sounds great right? Well, yesterday the conversation took an ugly turn: he asked me to switch my webcam on...I asked why...he said 'I want to see what I'm going to be getting...' I asked him what he meant (in the pit of my stomach I knew), he said he wanted to see some of that 'sweet p***y'. I felt so sick, I couldn't get off the phone fast enough.

I've stopped using my webcam when I chat because no matter what we talk about, every single male acquaintance eventually asks me the same thing: 'show me your t*ts'

That's all that's waiting out there for me.

I barely got 3 hours sleep last night ....... I feel completely worthless.

June 30, 2004

kiababy,

Jeez, it's like all the scum of the earth men seem to flock to you (and you them) like a magnet. I know you are frustrated and sound a bit ashamed that you haven't been able to kick him to the curb yet, but you have come a LONG way. The next time you feel that way, review your posts starting from your first post to your latest. You'll see all that you have discovered about your past, present and future. It may take you longer than others, but I think you will find your way out.

kiababy and nubianangel,

It appears as if the main attraction is that someone is paying attention to you, showing interest in your thoughts, listening and understanding you and making you feel worthy. Surely you must have other people that do that for you? A friend? A family member? A pet? Maybe the thing is that you need to build a support network of people who can give that to you - besides your MM. That might make it easier to leave him behind.

June 30, 2004

Kiababy,

My heart goes out to you, please cheer up. This IS NOT race, so what if myself, fanou and spock have ended the relationships. That makes us no better or more worthy than you. We'll always have that OW comradery because we can all relate to the other. Our past and present feelings of anger, confusion, happiness, desire, etc. is what continues to bond us OW (present and former)--the memories are something we will never forget. Each of us is hurting and for myself I'm longing to run to his office, apologize and fall into his arms again but my accountability on this forum keeps me from doing that. I won't say it's the respect I have for myself because I'm still working on that one. I think you're feeling like the minority here and you shouldn't. There are many OW in this forum still looking for answers such as yourself. Again, my situation has changed but I have not, I offer you my ear not my judgements.

Also, lose the lawyer what a pathetic pervert. If seeing your private parts is the first thing on a man's mind you can usually guess what his motives are. I'm a member of an online community and I've met some real sicko's too.

Please crawl out of that abyss I like to call depression. You are a worthy woman and so much more AND thats saying something seeing how I met you a short while ago.

June 30, 2004

Kia, the reason you are having more difficulty bouncing back is because you've been stuck in this cycle for at least 20 years l-o-n-g-e-r then some of the other ladies. Some of their situations, however similar, are probably do to lack of experience with relationships rather than "repeating" the same patterns over and over again. Only TIME will tell whether or not the people on this forum were able to intervene early enough to help these beautiful young women get past their hurdles…for good.

YOU have played a VERY important role in helping these younger women to recognize themselves in the reflection of "you". Whether you realize it or not, you have played a KEY role in selflessly saving three absolute strangers from suffering the same life of sadness as you.

THAT shows an amazing amount of human compassion and love for others, regardless of that "I'm a tough cookie" persona you present to the world in order to protect yourself.

Our teachers come in the most unexpected forms. In my life, I have learned more from the people I've tried to help than they've ever learned from me. And every time you drop your guard and reveal more of the real "Kia" trapped inside, we get to see the wonderful person that is just dying to reach out and give to the world what you, yourself, have had to learn to live without.

Now, I'm waiting patiently (tapping foot on floor) for you to teach us something else…

That even a woman who has spent half her life battling her personal demons can STILL turn her life around and become the HAPPY self-confident and strong woman she was always meant to be.

Perhaps I'm an incurable optimist…but I'm still hoping for that happy ending. YOU may give up on "you"…but I don't think the friends you've made here are ready to do that just yet.

June 30, 2004

Yes, I just have to parrot what has already been said, Kia, you are NOT worthless, just because you can't call it quits with this guy. And for one am not going to presume that all YOU attract are sickos, I am sure your young man has lots of wonderful qualities, things may be spinning out of control at home with his wife, and frankly if SHE asked him to have a penile reduction surgery, well, lordy, that's cause for more than one man to say, "ya know what honey I'm outa here!"

I can't imagine any self respecting woman after ten years of marriage saying that sex still hurts, what is she four/eleven and 85 pounds?! I'm just being flip here, but truly, from what you have shared, your man sounds like he's got some good qualities, and perhaps leaving him isn't what is best for you or him right now. Ya, I know, Nubianangel is choking in disbelief, what with this apparent turnaround in my thoughts.

The more I have been on this website, which has only been about one month, the more I have learned that the nicknames here are representative of real faces, real people, and real people are NOT perfect, least of all me. Like some have previously said, all situations are different. That guy on the internet, what a jerk, men never cease to amaze me in certain respects. I was going to share a poem entitled MEN, by Dorthy Parker, but it looks like we have copyright issues so I quess that idea is sqwelched. Oh well, the point is, don't make any hasty decisions right now, and deal carefully with your young man. I think we all know that young men in their twenties can be hotbeds of emotion and potential anger if they fear abandonment. In any event, kia, take it one day at a time and hang in there.

Best Regards,

June 30, 2004

Sorry Therresa, I was going to reply sooner but after reading your post I fell off my chair and had to be revived. What a wonderful thing to say!!!!!! As wild a time as we're having on the surface, I really do feel the pain of rejection by the wife he really does love. He comes to me for praise and acceptance and in return gives me the same. We cling to each other emotionally.

If I left him, I believe he really would hurt. He said the sweetest thing about Friday night: he said he drove an hour to see me (he acknowledged that driving intoxicated is STUPID), because even though there were lots of girls in the bar and his friend invited them back to his place to continue the 'party'... "none of them even hold a candle to you..." (it was so cute, he couldn't remember the end of that expression, I had to supply the word 'candle') I wanted to cry.

Enigma and Nubianangel ....I feel so much support from you two.

I feel so good about what you said Enigma, if I was able to help even a little then all this has been worth it, even if my situation doesn't come to a good conclusion. Did you see that movie 'Pay it Forward'.....it's kinda like that. Kindness is contagious, thanks for yours

Nubian Angel - I am so touched that at a time when you are hurting so much....you have taken time to comfort ME.

And by the way, I did consider suggesting he ask his wife to see a doctor about her 'pain', but then I thought, what if it causes an argument? Or what if they go to the doctor and it comes out it's all in her head, she doesn't WANT to enjoy sex with him. I can't do that to him or her. I don't want to inflict any more damage.

Love you all guys.

July 2, 2004

I have been wanting to reply for a few days but could not.

Kia,

I think it is amazing and wonderful that you have been providing your support to all of us while battling your issues. I am sure you are a wonderful mother as well as a wonderful woman. As Theresa had said do what you need to do for now and I hope one day you will find happiness with someone who can be totally yours.

I am convinced we all come hear looking for the answers that none of the OW can provide because we are looking for the same ones. All of us have also similar issues to deal with from our past.

MMs come to us looking for something (regardless of what it is) and we are drawn to them because of our issues and our desire for being desired and accepted.

One thing we all agree on is that MMs are selfish and cowards. Selfish for their pleasures and cowards for not facing whatever situation they have at home and not working on fixing it.

I am buying a book tomorrow that I hope will give more insight about cheating MMs. I will let you know what I find out from it. The majority of the posts here MM goes back to his wife and kids. Why???? Because he loves them??? or scared of being single again and having to face the world like us?????? What happens to MM when his wife leaves him???? He is not going to his OW because there are more fish in the sea now......

I am sure when relationships are subjected to microscopic analysis; we are going to find something wrong between MM and his wife from the beginning of their relationship.

I have also concluded that cheating MMs though they say they love their wives, they don't truly do so......

This forum is kind of like a mini diary for my thoughts on the issue. So please forgive me for any strange posts or analysis that might come forward in the future.

July 2, 2004

I think kia it's not so much kicking him to the curb (although you should, because if he's not going to do the honourable thing and separate and commit to a relationship with you then he is verified pigscum) but CURBING those self destructive behaviours around you. You don't need that kind of drama in your life.

July 2, 2004

I have also concluded that cheating MMs though they say they love their wives, they don't truly do so......

Fanou, I would be very interested to know whether the book you're going to buy confirms that fact. In my case my MM has been cheating on his wife since high school, but insists he doesn't 'love her any less'. I just don't get it.

Spock, I just read Cheeks sad story. Very scary. I always thought that if it was going to be over I would see it coming and be able to bail on my own terms and avoid any drama altogether. Now I see that the point is - even though they profess their 'love', 'feelings' or whatever they label it - there is no warning. One day they just cut you out of their lives.

July 6, 2004

I did not get a book to read. I spent the whole weekend on the internet looking for articles on this.

The majority that I have read was written by women. Very few men had any input in there.

It all boils down to MM cheat because they are selfish, because they can get away with it, because they have settled in the routine at home where sex is no longer steamy, because their wife no longer takes care of herself, because they want a re-assurance to their macho self...........those are the things I remember reading about the most anyway.

These men did not say that they loved their wives or girlfriends any less but they were looking for something not readily available.

Can it possible for them to love the OW???????? I say yes but they would never take the risk of facing something new. Men are cowards more than we think they are. The prefer to go back to what they know is safe.

Does a man who cheat love his wife?????? He does but not enough to think about the vows that he took. He does love his his wife to some extent but does not feel truly love for her to feel temptation and not succumb to it.

As far as OWs are concerned, I think we can all identify to a certain point with the traits of love addiction. We have all been missing something from our lives and we found it with MM. That is what drew us to them in the first place.

We talked with him so many times that we started wishing he was not married and then temptation played us and we figured why not, "as long as I keep my emotions in check"

No one can convince me that cheating MM is happily married and so in love with his wife and that there isn't something wrong with their relationship. He is content but not happy. He may have married her because it was the right thing to do not because he is madly deeply in love with her. He misses the excitement combined with when he is dating someone new. He wants to feel like a macho man. A man is no different than a woman. His gets stomach butterflies too............The difference is he knows how to hide it.

The things I am writing about might be confusing a bit but take the time to read my thoughts and think about them.

Things have changed in the past 20 years. Our morals and values have tremendously changed. We are more concerned about material things than our well being and what makes us happy. Often times we find ourselves thinking that we want short term happiness or being happy now rather than thinking about how will it all be in the future.

So many thoughts are going through my head right now to the point that I can't type fast enough to write them down......lol

I know that I want to be back with MM. I have been struggling to stay away from him and he is not making things any easier. I also know that he will never leave his wife. I know that things may not work well between us.

I know my past. I live my present. I hope to be happy in the future and find my inner peace.

I will definitely write again more of my thoughts. I just need to get them organized.....

July 6, 2004

OMIGOD I loved your post!!!

Can it possible for them to love the OW????????

I say yes.

No one can convince me that cheating MM is happily married and so in love with his wife and that there isn't something wrong with their relationship. He is content but not happy. He may have married her because it was the right thing to do not because he is madly deeply in love with her

My MM has always maintained that he loves his wife despite a lousy sex life...he has admitted to me that he has cheated on her NONSTOP since they were high school sweethearts. He also revealed that he was her FIRST, and he feels responsible for her......she however, has huge (pardon the pun) issues with him - I'm thinking hostility and resentment. What else would explain her request that he get a f***ing penis reduction because he causes her 'pain'????

His gets stomach butterflies too

Amazing that you would write that, one of his recent revalations was that he still gets butterflies whenever he sees me.....and has never felt 'this way' about any woman before......

I don't blame you at all for wanting to be back with your MM again. The addiction of these situations is powerful and overwhelming. A very rare MM posted in this forum recently (Yogurtu), he wrote something alone the lines of extramarita; affairs releasing endorphines.....explains the excitement......

Please post more of your thoughts

July 8, 2004

I admit I am weak and have no will power

Sarcastically I am back with MM. I was able to find out more things from MM to back up my theory about why cheat.

We saw each other and I grilled him with questions. I told him that I had spent the entire weekend researching trying to understand the male psyche. Believe me when I say he was taken aback by what I had to say about cheating husbands.

He says that he is sexually unhappy with his wife and that she has a low libido while he is a very sexual person.

Here are my findings:

MM settled for a woman with a low libido because he was afraid that if he met his match he will not be able to satisfy her always and may end up cheating on him.

MM was a wild person in his early twenties. She calmed him down and set him on his career path.

Wife stuck by him during all the times before they got married and supported him.

He dated her for 7 years before getting married. So it was time to either make it or break it.

So my conclusion:

MM was content but not extremely happy that he found his life partner. He found an easy going partner who he got used to and was afraid of facing the unknown should he leave her. Yes he loves her but not enough to tell her "we have a problem". MM does not want to hurt his wife's feelings.

In a lot of cases you see that she had supported him financially before they got married. So how can he leave someone like this and look ungrateful????

My earlier post stands true about how men are afraid of facing the unknown by going after true happiness. They love their wives but they also love the feelings that the OW gives them. They care to certain extent about the OW. They want to have the best of both worlds and they don't have the guts to wait for the one who will have both of these worlds in one.

I do agree that his wife changed him for the better. I am not blaming her. There is no way I can defend myself with what I am doing except make baby steps to get away from him eventually.

July 8, 2004

Originally posted by kiababy
Fanou, I would be very interested to know whether the book you're going to buy confirms that fact. In my case my MM has been cheating on his wife since high school, but insists he doesn't 'love her any less'. I just don't get it.

Spock, I just read Cheeks sad story. Very scary. I always thought that if it was going to be over I would see it coming and be able to bail on my own terms and avoid any drama altogether. Now I see that the point is - even though they profess their 'love', 'feelings' or whatever they label it - there is no warning. One day they just cut you out of their lives.

I agree. When he decided he'd had enough excitement and was getting nervous about discovery, he cut me off. That's it. And it sucked.

July 8, 2004

Don't feel bad Fanou - at least you tried, I didn't get that far. I read your findings with great interest. I have never questioned my MM but I let him talk and talk and talk and from all the stuff he has told me, here the things that are virtually identical:

He says that he is sexually unhappy with his wife and that she has a low libido while he is a very sexual person

MM was a wild person in his early twenties

He dated her for 7 years before getting married. So it was time to either make it or break it.

They've been together for 10 years - married for 3 - amazing!

Yes he loves her but not enough to tell her "we have a problem". MM does not want to hurt his wife's feelings

He says he 'doesn't love her any less' just because she finds sex 'painful' with him.....yeah after 10 years together......right....

They love their wives butthey also love the feelings that the OW gives them. They care to certain extent about the OW. They want to have the best of both worlds

The last 4 weeks have been the most intense for us, he has told me at various times that I have the 'biggest part' of his heart, I make him feel more 'wanted' than he has ever felt in his life...he told the friend he works with that I am the 'Ultimate Woman'...and that 'She's mine, all mine'....and finally today he told me that he is mine 'for life'......I don't ask any relationship questions, this stuff just spills out of him....

Let me ask you this: have you read anywhere in your research about some men relying on sex for stress relief? I ask because MM told me one time that he cheated on the trip ON THE WAY to asking his wife's father for her hand in marriage....because he was NERVOUS????

And now that they've moved into a condo they share with another couple, close friends of his wife who know about the girl that blew the whistle on him last fall.....he said he feels like there are 3 sets of eyes on him whenever he's home. Every day when he's on his way home he calls me...and will sit in the driveway and talk to me for a bit before going inside.......sometimes meeting up with me, which never used to happen before he goes home. Either way, ever since his living arrangements have changed I've noticed a big change in his behaviour.

Let me know if you come across anything that may apply.

Thanks

July 8, 2004

Spock,

Funny you should say so. MM told me tonight that if his wife got suspicious he would have to stop seeing me for a couple of weeks or until he calms down her suspicions. I hope that won't happen until I have moved on.

July 8, 2004

Have read many books on that subject and yes they do love their wives not always sexually, but because they had alot of firsts together, marriage, children etc. Also read a great statement, says- A married man does not love you or his wife enough to make any sort of choice. Off that subject this was another great statement to all OW. No 3 week vacation to Hawaii is worth sitting at home for one night knowing your boyfriend is w his wife and children having a family bbq.

July 8, 2004

Kia,

Unfortunately, I haven't read anywhere about sex as stress relief. I think your MM cheats on his wife because he got away with it for so long. He might becoming a chronic cheater. From what you say I do believe that he cares for you. He even loves you to a certain extent. I also believe that his marriage will break up one day and it will not be because of you.

Don't take this the wrong way I am not wishing anyone unhappiness but it is what I read on this forum and other places and the way I analyze things.

I don't think any MM will openly say why he cheats even to his therapist (if he is seeing one). The conclusions that we come to are from what they say. Take it for face value and you will be amazed what you find out.

What I would like to know is they run away when it is a matter of "incompatible differences" but never because they are not happy. Doesn't that unhappiness lead to incompatible differences?

July 8, 2004

Loved your question! If anyone knows the awnser let us know!!

July 8, 2004

'Chronic Cheater'? Yeah , you could say that, he told me at one point he was going to bars so he could go home with a new girl every night - but never felt satisfied or wanted.

In his own way he does love me, he has said that he wants to have two women in his life - his wife...and me. Early on when we were just having what was to be a casual fling, he said he would never leave his wife FOR another woman because he didn't want to have the words "I f***ed up my life for you" come out of his mouth during a fight.

I think one day his wife will end up leaving HIM. Not because he cheats, not because she finds someone else, but because she will outgrow him emotionally.

He is a HANDFUL- I don't think I could handle him full time myself. I like a lot of quiet time...a lot of 'down' time, whereas he is the ultimate party boy.

July 8, 2004

This evening he called to say he heard a new song that reminds him of me. He told me to listen to the lyrics. I haven't heard the song yet...or maybe I have and didn't notice it....but I searched for the lyrics on the internet tonight. Here it is:

» Feelin' Way Too Damn Good

I missed you so much

That I begged you to fly and see me

You must've broke down

Coz you finally said that you would

But now that you're here

I just feel like I'm constantly dreaming

Coz something's gotta go wrong

Coz I'm feelin' way too damn good

For 48 hours I don't think that we left my hotel room

Should show you the sights

Coz I'm sure that I said that I would

We gotta make love just one last time in the shower

Well something's gotta go wrong

Coz I'm feelin' way too damn good

And it's like, every time I turn around

I fall in love and find my heart face down and

Where it lands is where it should

This time it's like

The two of us should probably start to fight

Coz something's gotta go wrong

Coz I'm feeling way too damn good, oh

Feelin' way too damn good

Sometimes I think best if left in the memory

It's better kept inside than left for good

Lookin' back each time they tried to tell me

Well something's gotta go wrong

Coz I'm feelin' way too damn good

- Nickelback

July 11, 2004

A lot of the OW have talked about seeing a therapist.

That may sound stupid, How do you go about finding a therapist?????

I am seriously thinking of seeing one but have no clue how do I find one.

July 11, 2004

You can tell your family doctor that you would like to talk to someone about some serious issues and they can usually refer you. My health coverage through my job provides a brief therapy period (3 months), and then if you think it's helping you can arrange to continue seeing the Therapist.

I tried it about 2 years ago, when I was involved with the man who was separated (on and off as it turns out). Unfortunately, at the time I was stubborn (what a shock, eh?) and didn't want to answer the questions he had. I wanted to talk about what was bothering me at that moment, and refused to relive my childhood. At the end of the 3 months I chose not to continue the therapy because I didn't think it was helping at all.

I made a terrible mistake: discussing my childhood is EXACTLY what I should have done as it turns out It's sooo hard to confront painful memories.

July 12, 2004

kiababy,

what a breakthrough - you finally admitted that your childhood is behind a lot of your behaviours. That's great. The next thing is to figure out the how/why and do something to stop it.

fanou22,

I would recommend talking to a therapist but first I think you need to figure out what exactly you like about your MM. When I last remember your post, you said it was a physical attraction only and nothing emotional. If so, I don't know why it would be so hard to let him go? Has this changed? DO you now think you love him?

July 12, 2004

Remember that icky L.A. lawyer I posted about last week, that was talking about coming to visit and then asked me to show him 'the goods' on webcam? Well, he saw me online last night and asked why I was avoiding chatting with him. I came right out and told him I thought he was only interested in seeing me take my clothes off in cyberspace, and in an encounter if we ever did meet.

He apologized, said he was just 'being a guy' etc. and then we got into a real conversation (sans webcam). He was asking if I had been seeing anyone, I said yes, the same guy for the last 11 months... and I let it slip that I could never have a relationship with this person. He figured out the guy I was seeing was married....well....for the next 2 hours he pretty much cross-examined me, and I couldn't come up with a valid reason why I was still seeing him. Note to OW: the excuses we use on this forum for why we stay with a married guy would never hold up in court.

I realized I had absolutely no defence so I referred him to the Love Addiction link. It was the best I could do.

He also dragged out of me the fact that I do not in fact, really want my MM to leave his wife.

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