Consolidated Discussion - Paying for Dates

[Sanman]

Ok your right. Men- if you wanna land that gf I suggest you don't pay for the date. That way you can guarantee you aren't with a gold digger.

 

None of the reasons I mentioned: the man asking for the date, the man usually making more money, making a girl feel good, showing a romantic generous side, none of these reasons are worth the $30.

 

Me here, a double major (business admin and RN) who is considered somewhat feminist by my friends and family, am wrong to suggest that a man treat a woman on their first date. It's an archaic principle and I must be soooo behind the times. I'm also a gold digger who is after a man to pay for my life..

 

So please, listen to these men who have women alllll figured out!

 

Seriously though.. There is nothing wrong with a man wanting to court a woman. Women like it and if pleasing a woman is your plan then I see no harm in it.

 

 

A few things:

 

1. When the woman asked for a date, you still were not sure she should pay.

 

2. While women may make less that an equally educated man according to some studies, women today often make more than men and are outpacing men in college/graduate school. Within an individual couple, women earn more a significant portion of the time. However, I do not see any idea that addresses this situation in your posts.

 

3. You consider yourself somewhat feminist, yet choose to fall back on tradition when it feels good. Want to earn what men earn? Take an equal share of the burden and responsibility. If I have to do the the dishes too, you can split the check.

 

4. Finally, your point that it makes women feel good. I agree that this is the reason it is done. However, I am/was looking for an equal partner in a relationship. I am not here simply to make women feel good. So, what is this woman doing to make me feel wanted, appreciated, etc. In most cases, the answer is not much.

[Bigcitydreamer]

But lots of men are happy to pay for the first date. Why are you so against it?

[Bigcitydreamer]

A few things:

 

1. When the woman asked for a date, you still were not sure she should pay.

 

2. While women may make less that an equally educated man according to some studies, women today often make more than men and are outpacing men in college/graduate school. Within an individual couple, women earn more a significant portion of the time. However, I do not see any idea that addresses this situation in your posts.

 

3. You consider yourself somewhat feminist, yet choose to fall back on tradition when it feels good. Want to earn what men earn? Take an equal share of the burden and responsibility. If I have to do the the dishes too, you can split the check.

 

4. Finally, your point that it makes women feel good. I agree that this is the reason it is done. However, I am/was looking for an equal partner in a relationship. I am not here simply to make women feel good. So, what is this woman doing to make me feel wanted, appreciated, etc. In most cases, the answer is not much.

 

How about spending 2 hours straightening her hair and doing her makeup to look nice for her first date? A girl does that to impress a guy. Should that tradition be abolished too? Is it detrimental to society that women are spending time and money to get ready for a first date?

 

This argument is just silly to me and that's how it is. You can logic that its 2013 all you want but the fact remains that I have yet to pay for a first date. NEVER. And you can infer from that all you want because I don't care. I would never entertain seeing a man who is so adament about not paying for the first date. As I'm sure you would never bother with a girl like me there are lots of guys willing to dare I say it.. Romance women! Maybe it is an old tradition that is dying out but it hasn't died out yet so I recommend to a guy that likes a girl to pay for the first date

[Bigcitydreamer]

In other words, "Lots of people are happy to sit in the back of the bus, why are you so against it?"

 

Way to deflect the question. I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees this as pointless. You keep doing what your doing- insist on going Dutch the first date.

[Bigcitydreamer]

I get the sense that you feel it isn't fair for a woman to be courted and for a man to do that courting. I'm thinking me and others who share my opinion don't focus on the money aspect of things. If a man asks to take me out he pays for me. Perhaps it's a bit old school. I can see how it would not be fun to be the man in the situation especially if you are not making much money. But that's the way it is. In an equal world, day care workers (highly important, physical labour, high responsibility, female dominated) would make as much money as an electrician (very important and necessary trade dominated by men).

 

I've done courses in school where my male professors would point this out. Business courses not social science courses. People like to toot the importance and necessity of trades workers in explaining why the make such good money when they fail to see the importance in day care employees. Society isn't equal just yet. I do wish it was. Because then the men who went to trade school for a year would not be making significantly more than me.

 

And I don't blame anyone for my choice in career. Yes I could have chose to do a high paying trade if I was only in it for the money. Name one female dominated PROFESSION that makes more than any male dominated profession.

 

Ill end that rant because that's a whole different thread. But it illustrates that society is NOT equal. Women still do more housework. They are still the primary child care providers. Yes there are exceptions, but the reality is that these differences do exist. Some suck and each gender has suckage in some areas but if my advice is being asked on whether a dude should pay for the first date I would have to say yes. This is to help the guy impress the girl. I see nothing wrong with wanting to impress someone on a first date either. It's what people do so you can step up to the plate or you can follow your own principles. It's really up to you.

[Anela]

*edited out the first part of my post.

 

This argument is just silly to me and that's how it is. You can logic that its 2013 all you want but the fact remains that I have yet to pay for a first date. NEVER. And you can infer from that all you want because I don't care. I would never entertain seeing a man who is so adament about not paying for the first date. As I'm sure you would never bother with a girl like me there are lots of guys willing to dare I say it.. Romance women! Maybe it is an old tradition that is dying out but it hasn't died out yet so I recommend to a guy that likes a girl to pay for the first date

 

I was thinking about this last night - this whole topic. I remember reading something from a friend, a few years ago, who had been told by a young man that she knew (around the age of 30), that she shouldn't be dealing with the guys she kept dating, that she deserved to be treated to $200 dinners, and I was gobsmacked. People are spending that much on one dinner?? What on earth are they eating??

 

But a man who is so determined to not even pay for a tea or hot chocolate for me - just a couple of dollars? I wouldn't like someone who was so persnickety over that small amount of money. I gave a few dollars away to a woman who was panicked over her car being out of gas - she told me her daughter had taken her car without her permission. I don't know if she was telling the truth or not, but if she was telling the truth, she needed to get home, and I wasn't going to begrudge her, even though I had maybe $5 to my name. Would you guys have told her, "no," like Grumpy Cat? "selfish, entitled woman, expecting me, a MAN, to fix her problems! She can walk home, since she wanted equality! grumble, grumble, grumble."

Edited August 22, 2013 by Anela

[Bigcitydreamer]

Yep. The makeup that you find in regular stores tends to go like this:

liquid foundation: $10

face powder: $9

Lipstick: $8

Decent shampoo: $5-$10

Ditto with conditioner

moisturizer: those I can't afford, I use a little coconut oil, but the moisturizers usually run from $17 up, and those are small pots, unless you get something like the one I used for years, from St. Ives.

Night cream: I don't use this, but a lot of women do. $17 at least.

Face serum: around $17 at least, as far as I can gather. the good stuff is at least $25, and the face oil is around $40. I was give a few things, a couple of years ago.

 

Those are prices I've seen in Walmart and Giant Eagle, so goodness knows how much the popular ones cost. I've seen over $80 for serums, over $100 for tiny pots of face cream, like La Mer.

 

And there's MORE. things to fix the hair, before or after it's washed. Those hot little dresses and shoes, or at least some nice, presentable clothing. Not that I would know anything about this anymore, but I still buy a few things. The things listed aren't bought every day, but most of them run out quickly, if used regularly - you need to replace them every month. Then a lot of women go to a hairdresser, which costs even more.

 

 

 

I was thinking about this last night - this whole topic. I remember reading something from a friend, a few years ago, who had been told by a young man that she knew (around the age of 30), that she shouldn't be dealing with the guys she kept dating, that she deserved to be treated to $200 dinners, and I was gobsmacked. People are spending that much on one dinner?? What on earth are they eating??

 

But a man who is so determined to not even pay for a tea or hot chocolate for me - just a couple of dollars? I wouldn't like someone who was so persnickety over that small amount of money. I gave a few dollars away to a woman who was panicked over her car being out of gas - she told me her daughter had taken her car without her permission. I don't know if she was telling the truth or not, but if she was telling the truth, she needed to get home, and I wasn't going to begrudge her, even though I had maybe $5 to my name. Would you guys have told her, "no," like Grumpy Cat? "selfish, entitled woman, expecting me, a MAN, to fix her problems! She can walk home, since she wanted equality! grumble, grumble, grumble."

 

You are even low balling those prices!! I have yet to use a drug store cover up or powder that costs less than $20! They do exist but they are like the cheapest makeup you can get!

 

I really like the car analogy because it points to the fact that you just do stuff out of kindness. No other motivation. You could very well have said "it's your responsibility, take a bus, I work hard for my money and you are no different than me", but instead you just acted on a desire to be nice. Oddly I was in a very similar situation. Has me wondering if we are in the same location and it was the same lady! Lol. I was also fed a story about car being broke down and needing money. I gave her $5. It was what I had on me.

 

I'm thinking the guys who paid for my dates weren't focused on who was paying or the morals behind it.. They just wanted to be nice.

[Sanman]

I get the sense that you feel it isn't fair for a woman to be courted and for a man to do that courting. I'm thinking me and others who share my opinion don't focus on the money aspect of things. If a man asks to take me out he pays for me. Perhaps it's a bit old school. I can see how it would not be fun to be the man in the situation especially if you are not making much money. But that's the way it is. In an equal world, day care workers (highly important, physical labour, high responsibility, female dominated) would make as much money as an electrician (very important and necessary trade dominated by men).

 

I've done courses in school where my male professors would point this out. Business courses not social science courses. People like to toot the importance and necessity of trades workers in explaining why the make such good money when they fail to see the importance in day care employees. Society isn't equal just yet. I do wish it was. Because then the men who went to trade school for a year would not be making significantly more than me.

 

And I don't blame anyone for my choice in career. Yes I could have chose to do a high paying trade if I was only in it for the money. Name one female dominated PROFESSION that makes more than any male dominated profession.

 

Ill end that rant because that's a whole different thread. But it illustrates that society is NOT equal. Women still do more housework. They are still the primary child care providers. Yes there are exceptions, but the reality is that these differences do exist. Some suck and each gender has suckage in some areas but if my advice is being asked on whether a dude should pay for the first date I would have to say yes. This is to help the guy impress the girl. I see nothing wrong with wanting to impress someone on a first date either. It's what people do so you can step up to the plate or you can follow your own principles. It's really up to you.

 

 

So, how about the male day care worker who is low paid and still required to meet your social expectations? Too bad for him? Well, perhaps that burden/expectation to be a provider is the reason men choose better paying fields. An electrician also has a more specialized skill set than a day care worker, but that is beside the point.

 

You recognize the inequality and see yourself as a feminist, yet you choose to be a part of the inequality instead of being part of the change. Why is that?

[Bigcitydreamer]

Ok then look like a cheap man to the majority of women (because whether you like it or not that's what will happen in today's society) as I said its up to you. I don't view it as he is buying me free stuff. He doesn't see it like that either. He wants to do something nice for the girl he is with!

[Sanman]

Ok then look like a cheap man to the majority of women (because whether you like it or not that's what will happen in today's society) as I said its up to you. I don't view it as he is buying me free stuff. He doesn't see it like that either. He wants to do something nice for the girl he is with!

 

Can't think of a response, so you choose to see me as cheap? That's fine. It does not really affect my life dating or otherwise. The truth is that the amount of money I have spent on a women has had absolutely zero correlation on the appreciation or treatment of me. Whether I split the check or pick the tab does not increase the frequency with which I get sex or end up in a relationship. In fact, it sometimes causes more problems because a woman that is not paying for a date will string you along longer than one that goes dutch, IME. Regardless, my gf sees me as cheap and still sleeps with me. She is cheap too so it works.

[crude]

I don't think some of the women here realize that single women without children in urban areas make more money than their male counterparts. It's 15% now. Single women buy their own homes twice as often as single men. If they understood the situation, maybe some women would realize that THEY'RE the cheap ones.

 

Income Gap Closing: Women On Pace To Outearn Men

 

" In the majority of U.S. metro areas, single women with no children in their 20s outearned their male peers, according to Time's story. In Dallas, for example, a 20-something woman makes $1.18 to a man's $1."

[Southern Cal Dude]

Love how Sanman's question was met with an ad-hominem attack.

[Simon Phoenix]

Bigcitydreamer, you've said multiple times in this thread that you judge guys by whether or not they are willing to pick up the check and you've told guys that if they want to have success with women they better pick up the check. Besides the second part being extremely untrue, how can you with a straight face say it's not a money thing after saying that you judge a guy by whether or not he'll pick up the check? You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

 

As for traditions, how would you feel if a guy demanded you do all the cooking, all the cleaning, and also toss in blowjobs and sexual intercourse whenever the man wants no questions asked? Those were also traditions from an era where men were expected to pay for everything as well, and I'm guessing you'd balk at those traditions being enforced. That's another thing that pisses off men when it comes to a lot of women, they only want to keep the traditions that serve them and get rid of the ones that done. They want to be cake eaters. You come off as a cake eater in this thread.

 

That's nice that you offered to pay one time, that's basically what we want to see, that you actually appreciate things that are given do you instead of the "well, why shouldn't I get things for free?" poisonous attitude that you've brought to this thread. So maybe you aren't completely entitled and maybe you do recognize a nice gesture instead of being a prissy princess about it, which is how you've come off in a lot of your posts. I truly hope that you are appreciative and you just have a hard time expressing yourself well.

[Simon Phoenix]

Ok then look like a cheap man to the majority of women (because whether you like it or not that's what will happen in today's society) as I said its up to you. I don't view it as he is buying me free stuff. He doesn't see it like that either. He wants to do something nice for the girl he is with!

 

And this is the type of response that just makes you look foolish and unappreciative and materialistic.

[Bigcitydreamer]

I don't have to apologize for the way I see things. It's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. You can't look me in the face and say that it is not standard that a guy pays for the first date. Why would you encourage a man who wants the girl to not pay for a date? It's ridiculous. There I clearly nothing I can say to get my point across and not come off as a "prissy princess" to you all and that's fine. I've stated all I can state on the topic.

[Sanman]

Why would you encourage a man who wants the girl to not pay for a date? It's ridiculous.

 

I encourage such behavior because I believe that a woman that acts in such a manor without certain reciprocal beliefs on her behalf is not one worth dating. I don't care if you are traditional or progressive, whether you want to do all the housework or contribute 50/50, be consistent. Saying you want all the benefits of traditional dating while removing all the benefits men have from such a relationship (no cooking, cleaning, housework) is hypocrisy. Equal rights mean equal responsibility as well. For the record, I picked up the tab on my first date with my gf. However, she was willing to become friends with me and forgo dating and sex for months while we got to know each other before our first date. Most women today do not extend such appreciation to man, so I do not believe in paying for them.

 

Let me ask a further question, if all the men here agreed to pay for all the dates in exchange for a woman to show fidelity and not date or sleep with another man while they were being courted ( from the first meeting) how many women would do it?

[Simon Phoenix]

I've stated all I can state on the topic.

 

That's probably for the best.

 

Equal rights mean equal responsibility as well.

 

Nail hit on head. Bigcitydreamer is a cake eater who falls behind the blanket of "tradition", but I'm seriously doubting she'd be cool with a lot of the other traditions of that era. Not that she should be, but demanding that she gets the perks without having to deal with the drawbacks is entitled behavior. If you want to be traditional, be traditional in all aspects. If you don't, then don't demand special treatment and don't condemn a man for treating you as an equal.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Simon Phoenix

[Sanman]

Methinks someone should look up the term "gold digger."

 

Last time I heard, it wasn't a woman who was looking for a $2.50 cup of coffee. Why is it that the ones who cry 'gold digger' the loudest are usually the ones with the least amount of gold to dig?

 

No one said she was a successful gold digger :lmao:

[Woggle]

It's not even about a cup of coffee. I am the type of person that is very generous. I will buy my wife something for no reason other than the fact that I love with her without her asking and that is because she has more than proven she deserves it and would do the same for me. If she acted entitled to expensive things simply because she was a woman I would resent it. I treat my friends the same way. Anybody that acts like I owe them something will get that kind of attitude from me.

 

How many women have no issue cooking a meal for a guy who has more than earned it and doesn't demand it. Some do but I have seen women show their appreciation for good men that way. If these same men demanded this because she was a woman and it was her place most would understandably tell the man where to stick it. This is the same way men feel when we are asked to do certain things just because are a man. We know damn well most of the women with that attitude would rather eat crap than embrace traditional female roles so why be hypocrites about it?

 

Also most women who spend all that money to look good tend to look like that whether they are dating or not. I don't know too many that look like slobs normally then transform when they are out on a date.

[Woggle]

No one said she was a successful gold digger :lmao:

 

Exactly. Some people need to start small. A cup of coffee today, a meal tomorrow and a handbag next year.

[Simon Phoenix]

It's not even about a cup of coffee. I am the type of person that is very generous. I will buy my wife something for no reason other than the fact that I love with her without her asking and that is because she has more than proven she deserves it and would do the same for me. If she acted entitled to expensive things simply because she was a woman I would resent it. I treat my friends the same way. Anybody that acts like I owe them something will get that kind of attitude from me.

 

How many women have no issue cooking a meal for a guy who has more than earned it and doesn't demand it. Some do but I have seen women show their appreciation for good men that way. If these same men demanded this because she was a woman and it was her place most would understandably tell the man where to stick it. This is the same way men feel when we are asked to do certain things just because are a man. We know damn well most of the women with that attitude would rather eat crap than embrace traditional female roles so why be hypocrites about it?

 

Also most women who spend all that money to look good tend to look like that whether they are dating or not. I don't know too many that look like slobs normally then transform when they are out on a date.

 

http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lq2u0cmb2s1qii6tmo1_500.gif

[Simon Phoenix]

Well, I fu*ked up the last response, so try this again.

 

It's not even about a cup of coffee. I am the type of person that is very generous. I will buy my wife something for no reason other than the fact that I love with her without her asking and that is because she has more than proven she deserves it and would do the same for me. If she acted entitled to expensive things simply because she was a woman I would resent it. I treat my friends the same way. Anybody that acts like I owe them something will get that kind of attitude from me.

 

How many women have no issue cooking a meal for a guy who has more than earned it and doesn't demand it. Some do but I have seen women show their appreciation for good men that way. If these same men demanded this because she was a woman and it was her place most would understandably tell the man where to stick it. This is the same way men feel when we are asked to do certain things just because are a man. We know damn well most of the women with that attitude would rather eat crap than embrace traditional female roles so why be hypocrites about it?

 

Also most women who spend all that money to look good tend to look like that whether they are dating or not. I don't know too many that look like slobs normally then transform when they are out on a date.

 

Well said

[Woggle]

Also I believe men need to share the chores at home as well. I can't speak for anybody else but I always did. My wife herself will tell you I am the cleanest person she has lived with and never has to pick up after me. I am not a hypocrite about this.

[Simon Phoenix]

Also I believe men need to share the chores at home as well. I can't speak for anybody else but I always did. My wife herself will tell you I am the cleanest person she has lived with and never has to pick up after me. I am not a hypocrite about this.

 

And the cooking. I cook better than almost every woman I've dated/been friends with. When I was younger, a bunch of us (three men, two women) used to trading off cooking for the group once a week, allowing us the chance to have a home-cooked, quality meal at minimal overall cost once a week. The guys were gourmets compared to the women. My chicken parmesan with Caesar salad and garlic bread was a hit, as were my homemade tacos with freshly made guacamole and pico de gallo. Other things the men made were homemade chili, pork chops with a honey almond glaze and steak. The women made microwave nachos and hamburger helper. Needless to say the men pulled out of this deal pretty quickly. But yeah, I'm good with cooking -- I almost prefer it because then I know it'll be good. Not very big on baking though.

[Sanman]

Ironically, I am also a better cook than any woman I ever dated. The current gf is the baker though, so it works out. We split cleaning and other responsibilities as evenly as possible (until she tells me I am doing it wrong ).