wheeler Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Hear me out. I gave her the ring (£1000 white gold half carat diamond ring) when things were good. Now that we've broken up she's said she wants to keep it for memories sake (she's going to take it to one of those 'we buy gold' places, I will bet my teeth on it).. Only the wedding venue has called today and told me the cancellation charges are £1600. (60% of the £3500 wedding package I was going to pay for). Her family were buying things like the dresses and the rings, but me and my dad were paying for the ceremony, venue, registrar; a bit against convention but her family doesn't have very much money. I'm going to explain to her tonight that I might need that ring back if I have any hope of paying £1600 for absolutely nothing. NOTHING. Seriously, I'd probably see more benefit by throwing £1600 out of my car on the motorway. Am I morally wrong to even think of asking for the ring back? It's only about 2 months since some friends of ours had broken off their engagement and my fiance was saying to the groom "oh no if the wedding's off she should definitely give you the ring back". She's now changed her tune somewhat. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to keep my head up through all this. I was miserable in the situation and I thought that breaking it all off would help me to recover my mental health but things have gotten dramatically worse over the last 7 days.. Feel free to tell me I'm a b*stard if that's how I'm coming across. Link to post Share on other sites
Philosoraptor Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Who ended it? If you did then most judges will say it is her choice. If she ended it they will usually order her to return it. I got my ring back. I'm going to trade it it (worth more that way than selling it) and use it to get something nice for whomever the lucky lady is that next steals my heart. Link to post Share on other sites
Author wheeler Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 it's just that if I'm paying the mortgage and all the bills on my own for the next 2 months while she saves every penny to get a place of her own (but still enjoys the benefits of said amenities) I'm going to struggle a bit.. Link to post Share on other sites
Philosoraptor Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Does she have stake in the property? If so you can take her to court for half of anything she co-signed for. If she ended it you can ask for it back and let her know you will go to small claims court to have it returned. Link to post Share on other sites
CaliBabe Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 I think you should let her keep it. It is something you gave to her. My ex and I did not ask for things back after we broke up and we gave eachother some lavish gifts. Link to post Share on other sites
robkris8079 Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 I have found that in a breakup things like this just drag it out and make things so much worse. My brother and I have a saying for things just like this. We call it "casualty of war". I've lost and gained to many things in broken down relationships. I just say casualty of war, move on and make my life work without the items. This approach by far has worked the best for me. Yes I too lost an engagement ring, cars, furniture, tv's. Some pretty expensive items over the years. Probably lost more then I actually gained but oh well. Link to post Share on other sites
Author wheeler Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 no the house and basically everything in it was mine before I met her.. and she's contributed probably 10-20% per month (on average) of the total months costs (mortgage/bills) over the 2 years she's lived there.. Just sent her an email saying I can't pay the £1600 wedding cancellation fee's & all the bills on my own while she lives rent free for 2 months.. I'll have to see what she says Link to post Share on other sites
Gulf-Delta Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Take the ring back. When my finacee left I had no choice. The ring was my mother's, so I have no chance of selling it. I just put it in a box with the rest of my "ex stuff". Link to post Share on other sites
Philosoraptor Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Hrm it looks like you ended it. It's probably her choice in the end. I would explain the situation and the fact that you are giving her an opportunity to save. The other option would be to toss her out. Not the most plesant choice, but it's an option you do have. Link to post Share on other sites
xpaperxcutx Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Unlwss she plans to stick you with the rest of the wedding debt you will ask for the ring back. Link to post Share on other sites
marqueemoon4 Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 If she doesn't marry you for whatever reason the RIGHT thing to do would be to return it to you. If you go through with the marriage then the ring is hers to what she wants with it. Sucks cause I bought my exW a $9k ring. *POOF* gone. Link to post Share on other sites
Feelin Frisky Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 It should be returned. What is she going to do with it? Start a collection? If there are expenses that you and she feel should be shared, then use the ring to pay your part. But I don't see a woman keeping a ring as some kind of memento of a relationship disaster unless she's a gloating snot-box who loves that you got screwed. She'll either sell it or "collect" it but not wear it because everyone will know it's a trophy and it won't make her look the least bit good. Link to post Share on other sites
Citizen Erased Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 If you broke it off, which I suspect is the case given you avoided answering that question, it's pretty damn rude to demand the ring back. Nicely asking doesn't make you a jerk of course. Link to post Share on other sites
fificremefarben Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Hmmm this is a tough one. On one hand, it's worth a lot of money so you should have every right to ask for it back. I think when it's really expensive and you need the money, you need to put awkwardness aside and take it back. Surely she has other mementos of your time together (pictures, ticket stubs, etc). Besides, that particular item isn't connected to a particularly good memory. I don't mean to sound nasty at all here, because I don't know the full situation but, personally, if a guy proposed to me then dumped me...I'd throw his frickin' ring back at him. Link to post Share on other sites
threebyfate Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Engagement Contracts - Contracts And Agreements This might help. In Britain, if the man ends the engagement then the woman is usually entitled to keep the engagement ring. If the woman breaks the engagement then the man is legally entitled to the return of the ring. However if the ring was offered as part of a gift, for example on Christmas day or Valentines day then it will be seen as a gift and does not need to be returned. Each case is different and it will usually be left to the couple to decide who keeps the engagement ring. The engagement ring is usually seen as an unconditional gift in the UK. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
CarrieT Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 The ring was a gift and once given, what is done with it is no longer the concern of the giver but the recipient. Doesn't matter what she wants to do with it - sell it, keep it, bake it in a cake - it belongs to her now and there is no compelling reason she should return it, regardless of expenses. Everything else, on the other hand, is a different matter.... Link to post Share on other sites
marqueemoon4 Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 The ring was a gift and once given, what is done with it is no longer the concern of the giver but the recipient. Doesn't matter what she wants to do with it - sell it, keep it, bake it in a cake - it belongs to her now and there is no compelling reason she should return it, regardless of expenses. Everything else, on the other hand, is a different matter.... ummmm.... wholly disagree with this. an engagement ring is given by the man and accepted by the woman as an agreement that they are going to get married. if the woman changes her mind the right and ethical thing to do would be to give it back. if the man ends it, any woman worth her salt would still return it, unless she's a gold digger (like my exW). 2 Link to post Share on other sites
CarrieT Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 ummmm.... wholly disagree with this. an engagement ring is given by the man and accepted by the woman as an agreement that they are going to get married. if the woman changes her mind the right and ethical thing to do would be to give it back. if the man ends it, any woman worth her salt would still return it, unless she's a gold digger (like my exW). In the United States, it depends on the state where you reside: Conditional Gift States Many courts look at an engagement ring as a conditional gift that is given in contemplation of marriage. If there is no marriage, then the engagement ring needs to be returned. Iowa Kansas Michigan New Jersey New Mexico New York Pennsylvania Wisconsin The courts also have held in these states that the reasoning for no-fault divorces holds for no-fault broken engagements so an engagement ring should always be returned regardless of who decided to call off the engagement. Implied Conditional States In these locales, if the guy breaks the engagement, he won't get the ring back. If he doesn't break the engagement, he can request its return. California Unconditional Gift States Other courts have held the belief that an engagement ring is an unconditional gift and so it doesn't need to be given back. Montana Family Heirloom Engagement Rings If you are considering giving a family heirloom engagement ring, legal experts recommend having a prenuptial agreement that lists who will keep the engagement ring in the event of a break up. Link to post Share on other sites
threebyfate Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Umm...people...notice the pound sign as the currency indicator within the opening post? This means that U.S. law is irrelevant. Link to post Share on other sites
CarrieT Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Umm...people...notice the pound sign as the currency indicator within the opening post? This means that U.S. law is irrelevant. Okay, here is the U.K. Law: The legal position for engagement rings at least is governed by section 3(2) of the Law Reform (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1970 , which states: The gift of an engagement ring shall be presumed to be an absolute gift ; this presumption may be rebutted by proving that the ring was given on the condition, express or implied, that it should be returned if the marriage did not take place for any reason. Although it seems unfair, this means that unless there was an agreement to return the engagement ring if the wedding is cancelled -- which a court could imply if the ring is a family heirloom -- a cheating fiancé/fiancée is under no obligation to return the ring. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
marqueemoon4 Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 This sure as hell isn't about US law or any other laws. Why would some woman who decides she doesn't want to marry someone keep the engagement ring regardless of what it costs or its value? That makes 0 sense. I was with the same cheap, greedy woman for 8yrs and gave her tons of really nice gifts and an engagement ring she absolutely didn't deserve and of course she kept it all. She gave me nothing but cheap crap for 8yrs and I gave it all back to her. Even if she gave me gifts of value I would've returned, why would I want it? Link to post Share on other sites
threebyfate Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 This sure as hell isn't about US law or any other laws. Why would some woman who decides she doesn't want to marry someone keep the engagement ring regardless of what it costs or its value? That makes 0 sense. I was with the same cheap, greedy woman for 8yrs and gave her tons of really nice gifts and an engagement ring she absolutely didn't deserve and of course she kept it all. She gave me nothing but cheap crap for 8yrs and I gave it all back to her. Even if she gave me gifts of value I would've returned, why would I want it?He dumped his fiancée. I was miserable in the situation and I thought that breaking it all off would help me to recover my mental health Link to post Share on other sites
gibson Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 This sure as hell isn't about US law or any other laws. Why would some woman who decides she doesn't want to marry someone keep the engagement ring regardless of what it costs or its value? That makes 0 sense. I was with the same cheap, greedy woman for 8yrs and gave her tons of really nice gifts and an engagement ring she absolutely didn't deserve and of course she kept it all. She gave me nothing but cheap crap for 8yrs and I gave it all back to her. Even if she gave me gifts of value I would've returned, why would I want it? Yeah... Your Ex-Wife and son were always on the receiving end of your generosity... There were physical altercations, you were controlling, you verbally abused her, you didn't spend time with your Ex-wife and son, you were critical, you didn't treat her with respect, you looked at other women, didn't take an interest in her passions, you didn't support her emotionally or have anything to do with her family for the most part. Let me also say that at times during our marriage I was verbally abusive when we would have fights, no name calling or anything like that, but I really knew how to push her buttons and say hurtful things. There was never any physical contact at all, until the middle of 2008. I was yelling at her during a fight, and she got off the couch and punched me in the face as hard as she could (I'm 6'4 and she's 5'3). I took it, didn't say a word and walked away. The day she left was a physical altercation as well, but let me state I've never put my hands on her, threatened her, or tried to physically keep her from trying to leave. ok, my list might be pretty long, but I feel like I need to realize what I need to work on going forward (no particular order): 1. apparently I didn't want to spend a lot of time with her and my son 2. VIDEO GAMES 3. walking ahead of her when we were out in public, she hated this. It was tough cause I'm 6'4 and she's 5'3 4. wanting sex too much? 5. didn't care for most of her family, except her mom/stepdad 6. being critical of her in general 7. looking at other women 8. didn't treat her with respect she deserved/talking down to her (struggled with this because I was so much older than her) 9. being snobby 10. didn't take an interest in what she liked, which was basically massage therapy and dancing, two things I know nothing about 11. i guess being controlling 12. could be verbally abusive during arguments 13. lack of emotional support (i really tried, she was very hard to love) At the very least... You shouldn't care about the engagement ring and be the man your son deserves. Link to post Share on other sites
marqueemoon4 Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) Yeah... Your Ex-Wife and son were always on the receiving end of your generosity... There were physical altercations, you were controlling, you verbally abused her, you didn't spend time with your Ex-wife and son, you were critical, you didn't treat her with respect, you looked at other women, didn't take an interest in her passions, you didn't support her emotionally or have anything to do with her family for the most part. At the very least... You shouldn't care about the engagement ring and be the man your son deserves. Ah ok wilsonx II.. don't worry... I am. And no, I wrote off that ring a long time ago. Glad to see you know exactly what happened for 8yrs by cutting/pasting pieces of my old posts. Go preach the word of GIGS and continue to wait for your ex or exes to come running back to you. Edited May 1, 2012 by marqueemoon4 Link to post Share on other sites
Author wheeler Posted May 1, 2012 Author Share Posted May 1, 2012 (edited) If you broke it off, which I suspect is the case given you avoided answering that question, it's pretty damn rude to demand the ring back. Nicely asking doesn't make you a jerk of course. Hi there, it's 11pm over here in England-land, I was at work til 8:30pm earlier (I'm meant to finish at 5pm) so forgive me for failing to answer any questions promptly... Yes I broke it off, for several reasons, the main one being her possessive controlling naggy nature, and other warning signs plus the negative emotions surrounding the wedding. I'll just point out my mental health has deteriorated over the past couple of months because of all this and it actually takes a lot of careful considered thought, not to mention the bottle/courage, to stand there and say "excuse me everyone, sorry to ruin your big day and your free dinner but I'm about to make the biggest mistake of my life which could end up in a costly divorce or a lifetime of misery, so sorry for the inconvenience but I'm stopping everything right now"... (especially after jokes from the mother in law that my fiance would get half the house if we ever split... gold digging??) so for everyone who thinks I've cut it a bit fine, yes I could have probably done something sooner and I'm sorry it's so late in the day, but when you get all these nutty wedding women going on about "its just normal pre-wedding jitters" when in actual fact it's major doubts over the whole thing and you want to throw up everytime someone mentions the wedding, it does take a great deal of courage to stop pleasing people for their own benefit and actually stand up for how you feel. I am sorry that I've broken her heart, that people have booked hotel rooms and that they've bought wedding outfits, but this is my life and my future. I'm not going to be a spectator & watch it go the complete opposite way to how I would like. The ring was a gift and once given, what is done with it is no longer the concern of the giver but the recipient. Doesn't matter what she wants to do with it - sell it, keep it, bake it in a cake - it belongs to her now and there is no compelling reason she should return it, regardless of expenses. Everything else, on the other hand, is a different matter.... That last sentence hits the nail on the head Carrie, thank you. I got caught up with the ring issue when the real issue is "I'm paying all the bills (nearly £1200 a month aka $2000 a month = £800/month mortgage, £40/month water rates, £120 month gas/electric, £130/month council tax, and then £50/month for our Phone/Internet/Tv package) and she has proclaimed that she's saving every penny to get out of here asap." Seems a bit unfair that she's living rent free, I'm paying all the bills, and then the wedding cancellation fee from the venue is £1600 on top of it ALL.. So forgive me, the ring isn't the issue. The fact I'm being walked all over financially (and it feels like someone has trodden dog shat in my face) is the real issue. Oh and she's operating her childminding (aupair) business out of my home until she leaves. Am I being unreasonable with all this expecting some kind of financial input from her? Edited May 1, 2012 by wheeler Link to post Share on other sites
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