Harrasment update: Cops last night, restraining order next?

May 9, 2012

This thread will never end...

1) Childhood trama and/or bad inter-family relations
2) Previous self harm attempts
3) Hyper sensitivity
4) Limitied communication or coping skills.
5) Unresolved anger
6) Refuses to ever take accountabilty, always looks to project and gaslight onto you..
7) Huge one here. Distortion and manipulation of the facts. You tell her a story and in a fight it comes back at you, not even remotely resembling the original story.
8) Anxiety issues.
9) Many higher-functioning Borderlines become psychotherapists (yikes!) due to never having resolved their own core trauma issues.
10) Splitting; idealizing or devaluing behaviors, love you/hate you, and black or white perceptions/ideations

I See all these behaviors in a lot of the people that post their stories here. So are they all BPD?

When I read silver's story it looks like he was a rebound with poor personal boundaries. He got hosed and he allowed himself to get hosed and continues to. His threads thrive on drama. Look at the title of this one. I can label him with all 9 of these traits from quotes from his threads. Does that make him BPD?

May 9, 2012

I See all these behaviors in a lot of the people that post their stories here. So are they all BPD?

Wilson, the important question is not whether those people have BPD traits but, rather, whether they have them at a very strong level. Like all the other PDs, BPD is a "spectrum disorder." This means that, like selfishness and resentment, BPD traits are merely behavioral symptoms that everybody has to some degree.

It therefore was ridiculous, in 1980, for the psychiatric community to adopt a dichotomous approach -- wherein a client is deemed "to have" or "not have" BPD. Granted, this "yes or no" approach makes perfect sense in every field of the medical sciences, where clients are found to either have a disease or not. This is why, in the medical sciences, "disorder" means "disease."

In psychiatry, however, it does not mean that. There is NO KNOWN DISEASE that causes any of the ten personality disorders (PDs). Hence, in psychiatry, the term "disorder" simply means "group of dysfunctional symptoms typically occurring together" (technically called a "syndrome").

Of course, the psychiatric community knew in 1980 that this dichotomous approach to diagnosis makes no sense at all for behavioral symptoms that vary in intensity from person to person. They knew it is senseless to say a person meeting only 95% of the diagnostic criteria "has no disorder" and a person meeting 100% "has the disorder."

Doing so is as silly as diagnosing everyone under 6'4" as "short" and everyone under 250 pounds as "skinny." The psychiatric community adopted this silly approach only because the insurance companies -- who were long accustomed to "yes or no" diagnosis from the medical community -- insisted on a single, bright line being drawn between those clients they would cover and those they would not cover.

Over the past three decades, however, the psychiatric community (APA) quickly realized the insurance companies had betrayed them because, despite this act of appeasement, these companies still refused to cover BPD treatments. In addition, the APA members realized that, if they are ever to be taken seriously by the rest of the scientific community, they would have to abandon this absurd approach to identifying mental illness.

This is why, in the new diagnostic manual (DSM5) that will be released in May 2013, this dichotomous approach is being fully abandoned for all PDs. It is being replaced -- indeed, has already been replaced in the draft manual -- by a graduated approach which measures five levels of severity.

I mention all this, Wilson, to explain why the answer to your question is "Yes, they all have BPD traits but, no, they don't all have full-blown BPD." I also am trying to explain why, for a person deciding whether to remain married, obtaining a diagnosis of "no BPD" is unlikely to be helpful. It may be as useless as telling a blind man "There is no bus coming" when he is deciding whether to step into a crosswalk.

May 9, 2012

Wilson I respect your opinion, but honestly if you ever went out with these women and experienced their bizarre behaviour you would know what we are taking about. The lies, mind games, manipulation and distortions are on another level and they make you think you are at fault. These articles I posted on this thread can't be coincidence. Now I take full responsibility for my last relationship ending. I only realised recently that she was a rebound. That I wasn't fully over the ex before her. I take accountability for the fact I should have left on numerous occasions when I noticed her manipulating, lieing and having no consideration whatsoever for my personal boundardies.

I knew she was lieing yet I stayed, knowing a relationship cannot be built without trust and honesty. I kept making excuses for her. She had crappy ex's and a crappy childhood blah blah blah. I kept remembering the sweet girl she was at the start and thinking I have to 'fix' her. Another side would then say leave because I knew the relationship was not healthy and never would be. It was my internal battle and she got caught in the middle. I wanted to help me so I would leave, I wanted to help her so i'd go back. I don't blame her for having such a negative impression of me. I didn't back up my word and at times was so clingy and insecure. That's two relationships in a row..

If you were to say to me "Mack you have only yourself to blame" I would completely agree. I went into a relationship with a girl with the exact same issues as a previous relationship with only 3 months grieving. When I figure out the reason(s) why that will be a good start as the last two relationships have been toxic as the other. I reminisce about the relationship before my last one still, but can't figure out why. I wanted it to work with my last ex, but I don't know why. I believed in my heart I loved my last ex and now I know I never did. Why did it take me so long to realise this obvious fact. For reasons I don't get, I feel unlovable and was willing to accept any form of 'love' no matter how unpure and toxic it was.

Despite her cruel and vicious nature all I want for my last ex is for her to happy. I find it immensely frustrating she can't see what I am trying to tell her. I mean it couldn't be more obvious she has BPD and is very emotionally immature (if it were a court case the jury would need 20 seconds to deliberate) and she refuses to even remotely consider the fact that I could be right. Downtown why do these logically intelligent girls who would clearly be able to see these issues in other people, can't see the blindingly obvious in herself? If this was another girl she would say something like "You cannot help her. She has to want to seek help because she wants to and when she is ready". Yet she can't apply this logic to herself? I find that so bizarre.

My last ex had anxiety issues, migraines, and all the other sympthoms and bizzare behaviour mentioned above, but yet won't even remotely consider the possibility I might be right. She was with a NPD and codependent in back to back relationships (that is who Borderlines are attracted to) yet still can't accept I may be right on the money when it comes to her. She can't accept every guy has either cheated on her or wanted to leave her in the past 10 years. She can't I accept I have proven to her, that she constantly lies and distorts conversations. I wish I could literally shake sense into this girl.

She can't accept at 41 that maybe just maybe she might be the problem. Instead she plays the victim and blames any and everyone for her predicament. I used to say to her "I will be different" but no one can or will be. Not until she accepts she has the issues she does. I mean what does she have to lose mentioning something about BPD in therapy? Why doesn't she want to help herself? Its the helplessness I felt (and still feel) which drove me nuts. Downtown Are BPDers nuts or am I being too harsh?

Because I am not perfect and I have my own issues to resolve she truly believes I am projecting/gaslighting onto her. She views me as a emotional and mental mess whose sole purpose in life is to 'hurt' her. A total monster. Yet unlike her I have a great family. I have had healthy relationships in my past. Have WAY more friends than her. Have a personality and social skills which are completely alien to her, yet I am the 'mess'. There is no doubt in her mind the problem is me and not her. She accused me of having BPD which is ironic, as in one of the articles I posted the author says that is exactly what a BPDer would do if you confronted them. I have been as honest with myself as I believe I can be. I know what most my issues are and slowly but surely putting the blocks in place to resolve them (this thread will be a great help for me for starters).

Must be cool for her to live in lalala land. I guess a part of me admires her total and utter self belief, despite the fact it is so damaging to her. With her I see her making the exact same mistakes in total and utter denial. Two months with a new guy saying all the same things she said about me. She thinks bam wham thank you mam she is emotionally healthy in a healthy relationship, despite the fact she told so many lies to me during her new relationship and was still verbally and emotionally abusive (I could go into that put this post is long enough as it is). Yet she can't see the same trends. She can't see that she is denying, avoiding, she's supressing and then moving on without learning a thing, clueless to her predicament. Blaming and denying along the way. Will it take the failure of this relationship too have her eyes opened? Or maybe 5 or 6 more failures.

So there you have it Wilson/Downtown. I don't love my ex. I don't like this women as a person. She has (I think) a new boyfriend. Her friend told me I should move on as there is nothing I can do to change her, yet even now I still want to 'fix' her and would go to any lengths to do so. I mean WTF! I realize just how ridiculous that sounds. I have started to develop feelings for a 21 year old but after spending so much time on this site (GIGS etc) there is no way in hell I am going there. No matter how mature she tells me she is and how flattering it is I can still have a girl so young and hot, find me so interesting and attractive. I know I have to fix what's wrong with me before even considering a new relationship. But why can't my ex see that she needs to the same? aarrggghhhhhhh its so annoying. I am hoping the OP see's something in me and something he can learn from. I apologise if I have overly hijacked the thread..

If you ever come across a woman like this run and NEVER look back. To detangle yourself from her toxic web is almost soul destroying...Sometimes denial can very blinding..

Edited May 9, 2012 by Mack05

May 9, 2012

My daughter is 18 years old and has BPD. Anyone taking this lightly, has not ever dealt with this.

My daughter has had 3 boyfriends and has treated all of them in the same way that has been described here. While some of the behaviors may be true in most people, in a person with BPD, it is these behaviors on steroids.

There is no mistake about it once you have experienced it, there are no questions, you know something is terribly wrong, and there would be no flippant questions about "Does everyone have BPD?"

May 9, 2012

My daughter is 18 years old and has BPD. Anyone taking this lightly, has not ever dealt with this.

My daughter has had 3 boyfriends and has treated all of them in the same way that has been described here. While some of the behaviors may be true in most people, in a person with BPD, it is these behaviors on steroids.

There is no mistake about it once you have experienced it, there are no questions, you know something is terribly wrong, and there would be no flippant questions about "Does everyone have BPD?"

Shayla how did you get your daughter to become self aware of this? How has she come to terms with BPD? If it's too personal a question(s) I completely understand.

May 9, 2012

I have dealt with Bdp before, had a ex tell her family and friends that I abused her and hit her. And she even bruised herself just to show them. I was sooooo embarrased and that is the public breakup I guess. 1 years later her mother and brother tried getting us back together so even they know she was full of it.

May 9, 2012

She has always known that something wasn't quite right, as a child. But it never dawned on me that she was anything but an average goofy kid.

I noticed that her behavior was very strange when she was 14 years old. She was getting in trouble at school all the time for the strangest of reasons. Without me knowing, she began self medicating with drugs, thinking that maybe it would help her with the feelings she had but didn't understand. She didn't come home one night, then showed up at school under the influence of cocaine. I was out of my mind, looking for her all night long. I called the rehab center from the ER and they transported her straight there.

While there, it was suggested to me that a psych eval be done, and she was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and it went on from there. She was formally diagnosed with BPD last year.

She took the diagnosis well, she was kind of relieved because she has always sensed that something wasn't right. She has come to terms with it, is taking meds for bipolar, depression, anxiety, yeah.....but coping with BPD takes therapy and so far, she has been reluctant to do that.

May 9, 2012

9) Many higher-functioning borderlines become psychotherapists (yikes!) Due to never having resolved their own core trauma issues.

This is very true! My ex is going to become a psychotherapist in a few months!

May 9, 2012

She has always known that something wasn't quite right, as a child. But it never dawned on me that she was anything but an average goofy kid.

I noticed that her behavior was very strange when she was 14 years old. She was getting in trouble at school all the time for the strangest of reasons. Without me knowing, she began self medicating with drugs, thinking that maybe it would help her with the feelings she had but didn't understand. She didn't come home one night, then showed up at school under the influence of cocaine. I was out of my mind, looking for her all night long. I called the rehab center from the ER and they transported her straight there.

While there, it was suggested to me that a psych eval be done, and she was diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and it went on from there. She was formally diagnosed with BPD last year.

She took the diagnosis well, she was kind of relieved because she has always sensed that something wasn't right. She has come to terms with it, is taking meds for bipolar, depression, anxiety, yeah.....but coping with BPD takes therapy and so far, she has been reluctant to do that.

I really hope things work out for her Shayla. In my studies of the topic last year (when avoiding my own issues) I noticed the longer it goes undiagnosed the harder it is to make the BPD sufferer become 'self aware'. Indeed for my latest ex I know it's too late. That will help me leave go. I will just say the odd prayer and hope somehow, someone or something opens her eyes. Sadly can't see that happening for a myriad of different reasons and its the continued and sad road to 'bitterville' ignoring all the signs and stops along the way.

Fingers crossed for your daughter. I think self awareness and the fact she is still young hopefully she has a bright, rewarding and exciting future ahead of her..

Edited May 9, 2012 by Mack05

May 9, 2012

Sorry...just looked up the definition of psychotherapist.He already is one.He's been in the mental health industry for years.He will be a psychologist in a few months.

Edited May 9, 2012 by dsw31

May 9, 2012

I'm finding it very helpful in understanding the behaviors that go from one extreme to another. One moment you're the greatest love and the next you're despicable. And going to great lengths to garner approval from people by painting you black. I found the book "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me" online and I decided to get it as the title speaks plainly and closely to what I am dealing with. Take care too Downtown. Thanks for your insight!

Geegirl, if I am new member how can I send you a PM?

May 9, 2012

I can spot "these" women a mile away even on this board. "These" women are just women to have fun with. They are "intoxicating" but to seek anything more then fun is "toxic" and you only have yourself to blame.

You said it best "Water Seeks Its Own Level" You keep swimming in the shallow end and finding these women. Fix yourself, learn how to swim in deeper water and try those women out.

Wilson I respect your opinion, but honestly if you ever went out with these women and experienced their bizarre behaviour you would know what we are taking about. The lies, mind games, manipulation and distortions are on another level and they make you think you are at fault. These articles I posted on this thread can't be coincidence. Now I take full responsibility for my last relationship ending. I only realised recently that she was a rebound. That I wasn't fully over the ex before her. I take accountability for the fact I should have left on numerous occasions when I noticed her manipulating, lieing and having no consideration whatsoever for my personal boundardies.

I knew she was lieing yet I stayed, knowing a relationship cannot be built without trust and honesty. I kept making excuses for her. She had crappy ex's and a crappy childhood blah blah blah. I kept remembering the sweet girl she was at the start and thinking I have to 'fix' her. Another side would then say leave because I knew the relationship was not healthy and never would be. It was my internal battle and she got caught in the middle. I wanted to help me so I would leave, I wanted to help her so i'd go back. I don't blame her for having such a negative impression of me. I didn't back up my word and at times was so clingy and insecure. That's two relationships in a row..

If you were to say to me "Mack you have only yourself to blame" I would completely agree. I went into a relationship with a girl with the exact same issues as a previous relationship with only 3 months grieving. When I figure out the reason(s) why that will be a good start as the last two relationships have been toxic as the other. I reminisce about the relationship before my last one still, but can't figure out why. I wanted it to work with my last ex, but I don't know why. I believed in my heart I loved my last ex and now I know I never did. Why did it take me so long to realise this obvious fact. For reasons I don't get, I feel unlovable and was willing to accept any form of 'love' no matter how unpure and toxic it was.

Despite her cruel and vicious nature all I want for my last ex is for her to happy. I find it immensely frustrating she can't see what I am trying to tell her. I mean it couldn't be more obvious she has BPD and is very emotionally immature (if it were a court case the jury would need 20 seconds to deliberate) and she refuses to even remotely consider the fact that I could be right. Downtown why do these logically intelligent girls who would clearly be able to see these issues in other people, can't see the blindingly obvious in herself? If this was another girl she would say something like "You cannot help her. She has to want to seek help because she wants to and when she is ready". Yet she can't apply this logic to herself? I find that so bizarre.

My last ex had anxiety issues, migraines, and all the other sympthoms and bizzare behaviour mentioned above, but yet won't even remotely consider the possibility I might be right. She was with a NPD and codependent in back to back relationships (that is who Borderlines are attracted to) yet still can't accept I may be right on the money when it comes to her. She can't accept every guy has either cheated on her or wanted to leave her in the past 10 years. She can't I accept I have proven to her, that she constantly lies and distorts conversations. I wish I could literally shake sense into this girl.

She can't accept at 41 that maybe just maybe she might be the problem. Instead she plays the victim and blames any and everyone for her predicament. I used to say to her "I will be different" but no one can or will be. Not until she accepts she has the issues she does. I mean what does she have to lose mentioning something about BPD in therapy? Why doesn't she want to help herself? Its the helplessness I felt (and still feel) which drove me nuts. Downtown Are BPDers nuts or am I being too harsh?

Because I am not perfect and I have my own issues to resolve she truly believes I am projecting/gaslighting onto her. She views me as a emotional and mental mess whose sole purpose in life is to 'hurt' her. A total monster. Yet unlike her I have a great family. I have had healthy relationships in my past. Have WAY more friends than her. Have a personality and social skills which are completely alien to her, yet I am the 'mess'. There is no doubt in her mind the problem is me and not her. She accused me of having BPD which is ironic, as in one of the articles I posted the author says that is exactly what a BPDer would do if you confronted them. I have been as honest with myself as I believe I can be. I know what most my issues are and slowly but surely putting the blocks in place to resolve them (this thread will be a great help for me for starters).

Must be cool for her to live in lalala land. I guess a part of me admires her total and utter self belief, despite the fact it is so damaging to her. With her I see her making the exact same mistakes in total and utter denial. Two months with a new guy saying all the same things she said about me. She thinks bam wham thank you mam she is emotionally healthy in a healthy relationship, despite the fact she told so many lies to me during her new relationship and was still verbally and emotionally abusive (I could go into that put this post is long enough as it is). Yet she can't see the same trends. She can't see that she is denying, avoiding, she's supressing and then moving on without learning a thing, clueless to her predicament. Blaming and denying along the way. Will it take the failure of this relationship too have her eyes opened? Or maybe 5 or 6 more failures.

So there you have it Wilson/Downtown. I don't love my ex. I don't like this women as a person. She has (I think) a new boyfriend. Her friend told me I should move on as there is nothing I can do to change her, yet even now I still want to 'fix' her and would go to any lengths to do so. I mean WTF! I realize just how ridiculous that sounds. I have started to develop feelings for a 21 year old but after spending so much time on this site (GIGS etc) there is no way in hell I am going there. No matter how mature she tells me she is and how flattering it is I can still have a girl so young and hot, find me so interesting and attractive. I know I have to fix what's wrong with me before even considering a new relationship. But why can't my ex see that she needs to the same? aarrggghhhhhhh its so annoying. I am hoping the OP see's something in me and something he can learn from. I apologise if I have overly hijacked the thread..

If you ever come across a woman like this run and NEVER look back. To detangle yourself from her toxic web is almost soul destroying...Sometimes denial can very blinding..

You do project and gaslight. You are trying to FIX someone instead of yourself. Blaming others yet still trying to fix them. The projection here is you need to fix yourself.

This is the problem with blaming others and calling them bpd, sure they probably could be/are but that doesnt fix the problem of you continuing to get into relationships with these people or chasing the clown.

You are aware you have problems, yet you continue to try to fix other people's problems and get frustrated when they dont.

Edited May 9, 2012 by wilsonx

May 9, 2012

9) Many higher-functioning borderlines become psychotherapists (yikes!)... My ex is going to become a psychotherapist in a few months!

Actually, a high functioning BPDer -- who has undergone treatment -- may become an excellent psychotherapist. Remember, HF BPDers typically interact very well with casual friends, business associates, and strangers. Usually, none of those folks pose a threat to their two great fears: abandonment and engulfment.

Indeed, one of the best-known and most prolific writers about BPD -- one of my favorite writers on the subject -- is a woman who was raised by two BPDer parents and is a treated BPDer herself. Her name is A.J. Mahari and she provides a wealth of information about BPD at her website: Welcome to Borderline Personality Disorder Inside Out - Borderline Personality Disorder Inside Out. I note that she is a professional writer, however, and not a psychotherapist.

May 10, 2012

Downtown why do these logically intelligent girls who would clearly be able to see these issues in other people, can't see the blindingly obvious in herself? ...Why doesn't she want to help herself?

Mack, yes, a BPDer DOES want to help herself at a conscious level but a recognition of her own issues rarely rises to that level. Instead, her subconscious protects her fragile ego from being exposed to too much of reality by projecting the issues onto you. As I've said before, the beauty of projection as an ego defense (compared to lying) is that it occurs fully at the subconscious level, allowing the conscious mind to truly believe most of the outrageous allegations coming out of her mouth. Projection therefore is guilt free.

The reason that this subterfuge -- this self deception -- is necessary is that a BPDer is filled with such enormous self loathing and shame that she would have an emotional breakdown on seeing an unvarnished view of her own issues. Such "moments of clarity" are rare and extremely painful. In the 15 years I lived with my exW, for example, I saw that happen on only three occasions, at which point her self loathing left her a trembling, blubbering mess. It was such a pitiful sight that I found it extremely painful to simply watch it occurring. What is happening, at those moments, is that the BPDer is turning her rage and hurt inward on herself ("acting in") instead of directing it outward in her usual fashion ("acting out"). Generally, it is far healthier for a BPDer to act out because it is less self destructive.

Of course, the other reason for the major issues being so invisible to her is that BPD constitutes a thought distortion she has had since early childhood. It is such a normal part of her everyday thinking process that she cannot see it. The same thing happens to you and me whenever we get very angry. Our perceptions of other people become distorted and we immediately start misjudging their true intentions and motivations. As occurs with your Ex, we cannot see our own distortions. We are able to see it only hours later when we have a chance to cool down. That's why, when we are very angry, we know we cannot trust our own judgement and should wait until later before taking any action.

This, then, is my understanding of why a BPDer cannot see her big issues. As to the small mistakes, she is blind to them because of her black-white thinking. Because a BPDer's self image is too fragile and unstable to tolerate ambiguities, strong mixed feelings, and uncertainties, her subconscious mind protects her by shoe-horning most of reality into all-or-nothing categories.

Significantly, she applies this B-W thinking to herself as well as to other people. This means that, if she acknowledges to herself she made a small mistake, she immediately feels like she is "all bad" -- triggering immediate feelings of great pain and shame -- because the category "a little bit bad" does not exist. Hence, B-W thinking is done to provide a sense of certainty and control. Roger Melton explains that

"a hallmark of mental health is the ability to tolerate uncertainty, which is demonstrated in our capacity to carefully weigh choices before deciding a course of action. Because we can tolerate the tension that occurs while going through the process of choosing, we can more accurately make a final decision. Mentally unsound individuals cannot tolerate much tension, which is why their actions tend to be irrational and impulsive.

Flexibility grows out of the ability to tolerate uncertainty. A flexible mind is one that can change. To some degree, change is uncomfortable for everyone, but normal individuals find it tolerable and manageable. In contrast, personality-disordered individuals are rigidly intolerant of change, inflicting their will against anything new or different in their lives-or in the lives of those around them. Externally imposed change is threatening, because it reminds them that the world is not under their total control.

Adaptability grows out of flexibility. Normal people are capable of adapting themselves to new situations. Change may make them feel uncomfortable, but they can accommodate themselves to it and adjust. Personality-disordered individuals find it extremely difficult or completely impossible to shift gears when a new situation develops.

Mentally healthy people have the capacity to take appropriate responsibility. Such individuals know how to see the part they may have played in creating a problem, can admit their part in it, can take corrective action to solve the problem and have the capacity to admit they were wrong. They also know how to realistically recognize when they have not played a part in creating a problem. Personality-disordered individuals cannot make those kinds of discriminations around the issue of responsibility. They always blame everything that goes wrong in their life on everyone else, or they do the exact opposite and always blame themselves for everything that goes wrong. Controllers are blamers - self-abusive individuals are blame-takers." See

Romeo's Bleeding - When Mr. Right Turns Out To Be Mr. Wrong -- Health & Wellness -- Sott.net

.

Downtown, are BPDers nuts or am I being too harsh?

Too harsh. As commonly used, "nuts" and "crazy" mean that a person has lost touch with physical reality, e.g., believing that the TV news announcer is speaking personally to her. In contrast, BPDers see physical reality just fine. As occurs with you every time you get angry, their intense feelings distort their perceptions of other peoples' motivations and intentions.

The result is that BPDers do "hyper-mentalizing," i.e., they over-interpret the social cues that other people give off. In this sense, BPD is the opposite of Aspergers and Autism because autistic people under-interpret those social clues. Hence, your earlier question ("Why don't BPDers see their own issues") is the equivalent of asking "Why don't Aspergers sufferers see their own issues?"

Because I am not perfect and I have my own issues to resolve she truly believes I am projecting/gaslighting onto her.

No, if she is a BPDer, your issues and flaws have virtually nothing to do with her belief that the projection and gaslighting are coming from you. As I noted above, she has a powerful need to project her bad thoughts and bad behavior (i.e., the projecting and gaslighting) onto you. NO MATTER WHAT YOUR FLAWS, she will project those behaviors of hers onto you. Otherwise, she will consider herself "all bad" and will suffer enormous pain and shame.

There is no doubt in her mind the problem is me and not her. She accused me of having BPD....

Of course there is no doubt in her mind. As I said, projection is a beautiful ego defense because, with it occurring entirely at the subconscious level, it is GUILT FREE.

Must be cool for her to live in lalala land. I guess a part of me admires her total and utter self belief.

No, that would be true only if she is a Narcissist who is lucky enough to get a continual "narcissistic supply" from the fool who marries him. Narcissists are so completely out of touch with their true selves that they believe the false self image is the real thing. In contrast, BPDers know that they are acting much of the time and know that their false self image is false. They build and maintain that false image because their sense of self is fragile and unstable.

As to it being "cool for her to live in lalala land," nothing could be farther from the truth. BPDers generally suffer 24/7 with a painful, vague awareness that they are empty inside -- not even knowing who the really are (hence, the need to create a false self image so as to fit in and be loved). As I mention below, their only relief from that pain occurs during the few months they are able to sustain infatuation.

Two months with a new guy ... She thinks bam wham thank you mam she is emotionally healthy in a healthy relationship

Yes, for perhaps three months -- until the infatuation evaporates -- she likely will feel good about herself. The infatuation makes her feel that the new guy is the perfect shining knight, so the infatuation holds her two great fears -- abandonment and engulfment -- at bay. Mack, if you had any understanding of the pain that will return to her, you would be happy for her to get a brief respite from her suffering. BPD is so painful that I would not wish it on my worst enemy.

Will it take the failure of this relationship too have her eyes opened? Or maybe 5 or 6 more failures.

Her best chance of having to confront her issues and seek therapy occurs when a man walks out on her. Numerous self-aware BPDers have told me that online. The chances of it happening, however, are very small.

I still want to 'fix' her and would go to any lengths to do so. I mean WTF! I realize just how ridiculous that sounds.

It doesn't sound ridiculous to me. I still feel that way about my exW even though we've been separated for five years. Keep in mind that there is absolutely nothing wrong or bad about having FEELINGS. They simply are what they are. The only thing that can be "wrong" or "ridiculous" is our behavior, i.e., how we choose to act on those feelings.

I therefore suggest you make peace with yourself, Mack, by fully accepting your feelings. If you are like me -- and I believe you are -- you are going to feel like you want to fix her for the rest of your life. To feel otherwise would make you a lesser man. But you will have the good sense not to act on that feeling.

May 10, 2012

I wasn't going to post on this or any topic for awhile but would like to thank you Downtown for your amazing analysis and your help over the past year. In a weird coincidence it's actually a year today since I joined (just realised that now)...Don't know what it is but feel a little a peace with everything today and I know that feeling won't ever change..

I read this on amazon today (under the walking on eggshells book review) from a woman who suffers from BPD and how it took 10 years for her to realise it. Very enlightening.

"I was recently told by my therapist that I am a recovering BPD. I would fall in the category of high functioning. I'm not a wrist slasher and I've never faked an illness. But I was plagued by uncontrollable emotions. I have been in different forms of therapy for about 10 years. And I've also spent the same amount of time researching emotions and psychology. While none of the therapists told me I was BPD, I knew something was wrong.

It seems they hide the diagnosis from you until you are in the recovery stage because the psyche of the borderline is so fragile the diagnosis of BPD would be more than they can handle. There are many ways to fall into the borderline spiral but in my opinion there is only one door out -- developing control over one's emotions. Borderlines are essentially people whose emotions are out of control. It's like someone turned the volume up, left the room and took the controls with them. For me it was like living in an emotional hell"

She goes onto say how EMDR and neurolinguistic programming learnt from her therapist changed her life. Pretty inspiring stuff....The reason why my ex can't see what is going on is because of her pysche and because she is a high functioning Borderline like this girl above..

The High Functioning Borderline Personality shares many core aspects of the low functioning borderline personality, except for the fact that they can manage their lives, appear to be productive, and generally keep their relationships civil (even diplomatic in nature). High Functioning borderlines can appear to be normal, driven people one moment; then moody, inconsolable, and manipulative the next. Somehow, there is a mechanism within the minds of High Functioning Borderlines that allows them to lead somewhat “competent” lives, despite the fact that they are in a constant battle with BPD. High functioning BPDs are no better than low functioning: it’s basically the same face wearing a different mask..

May 10, 2012

As for me. Wilson told be exactly what I needed to hear and I greatly appreciate that. My behaviours and emotions have been as erratic as my ex's were. I am starting to write a journal on Co-dependency. Wilson is so right. I will keep swimming in the shallow end as long as I focus on other people and not myself. Co-dependents can't communicate and are not always honest. They can't tell their partners what is really on their minds because they feel their partner will leave. That is why they remain so unfullfilled.

"Codependency is about having a dysfunctional relationship with self! With our own bodies, minds, emotions, and spirits. With our own gender and sexuality. With being human. Because we have dysfunctional relationships internally, we have dysfunctional relationships externally.

As adults, codependent people have a greater tendency to get involved in "toxic relationships", in other words with people who are perhaps unreliable, emotionally unavailable, or needy. And the codependent person tries to provide and control everything within the relationship without addressing their own needs or desires; setting themselves up for continued unfulfillment. The more a partner refuses/rejects our 'help' the more we try and the more we push them away.

Even when a codependent person encounters someone with healthy boundaries, the codependent person still operates in their own system; they're not likely to get too involved with people who have healthy boundaries. This of course creates problems that continue to recycle; if codependent people can't get involved with people who have healthy behaviors and coping skills, then the problems continue into each new relationship....

For one, co-dependents become addicted to emotional pain and to unhealthy relationships. They are drawn to people who are not available to them, or who reject them or abuse them. They often develop unhealthy relationships that eventually become unbearable. Because relationships hurt so much, co-dependents are more in touch with the dream of how the relationship COULD be, rather than the reality of the situation. The co-dependent is often immobilized by romantic obsessions. They search for the "magical quali" in others to make them feel complete. They might idealize other people and endow them with powerful symbolism.

In the relationship, the co-dependent will do anything to keep it from dissolving. This is because s/he is terrified of abandonment, the same psychic abandonment s/he felt as a kid when the parents were not there. So nothing is too much trouble, takes too much time or is too expensive if it will "help" the person the co-dependent is involved with. Co-dependents are willing to take more than 50% of the responsibility, guilt and blame in any relationship (one person told me that when people bumped into her, she was the one who said, "I’m sorry.")

Accustomed to lack of love in a relationship, co-dependents are willing to wait, hope, and try harder to please. At the same time, they have a desperate need to control the relationship. This is because the need to exact the missing love and security is the foremost motivation in any relationship for a co-dependent. Co-dependent people mask these efforts to control people and situations as "being helpful." In fact, attempts to "help" other people, when these others are adults, almost always have elements of control in them

By being drawn to people with problems that need fixing, or by being enmeshed in situations that are chaotic, uncertain and emotionally painful, they avoid focusing on their responsibility to themselves. While constantly seeking intimacy with another person, the "desperate" quality of their needs makes true intimacy impossible. In trying to conceal the demanding-ness from themselves and others, they grow more isolated and alienated from themselves and from the very people they long to be close to! They may be predisposed emotionally and often biochemically to becoming addicted to complusive behaviours like drugs, alcohol, gambling and/or certain foods, especially sugary ones. They may have a tendency toward episodes of depression, which they try to forestall through the excitement provided by unstable relationships.

No doubt about it, co-dependency can be a serious, even fatal addiction. Most of us have some of these characteristics, at least at times. And we have to ask what can be done about it? Fortunately, there is hope for the person caught in the trap of co-dependent relationships/personality traits. Recovery from co-dependency is much like recovery from any other addiction: it takes time, commitment, and a willingness to do the work"

That right there is hard for me to read because its true. I always considered myself a perfectly normal great guy (great family, friends, popular, well educated, good career, decent looking), but now is the time to except my role in my past relationships..It's time to stop fooling myself.

I have come across these websites below and so far I am impressed with the amount of knowledge on them on how to recover from codependency. Not sure how long it will take, but I am determined to grow emotionally and learn. To be a better person. I thank the many people I have spoken too on this great site and especially my last two ex's who have opened my eyes to my real predicaments, like no one else ever could. While they hate me, both will have a special place in my heart. Especially Ursinha..

http://www.allaboutcounseling.com/codependency.htm

http://www.planetpsych.com/zPsychology_101/codependency.htm

http://mixedbag.us/16steps.htm

Edited May 10, 2012 by Mack05

May 10, 2012

.OP if you don't notice any of the below then I don't believe it is BPD your ex suffers from..Afterall there are many afflications out there. None of us are perfect.

1) Childhood trama and/or bad inter-family relations

YES

2) Previous self harm attempts

Not that I know of.

3) Hyper sensitivity

YES

4) Limitied communication or coping skills.

Good god YES

5) Unresolved anger

YES

6) Refuses to ever take accountabilty, always looks to project and gaslight onto you..

YES

7) Huge one here. Distortion and manipulation of the facts. You tell her a story and in a fight it comes back at you, not even remotely resembling the original story.

YES. In spades. It came out every time, even in couples counseling.

8) Anxiety issues.

YES

9) Many higher-functioning Borderlines become psychotherapists (yikes!) due to never having resolved their own core trauma issues.

Er no, she has a dead end desk job

10) Splitting; idealizing or devaluing behaviors, love you/hate you, and black or white perceptions/ideations

Good God yes

May 10, 2012

This thread will never end...

I See all these behaviors in a lot of the people that post their stories here. So are they all BPD?

When I read silver's story it looks like he was a rebound with poor personal boundaries. He got hosed and he allowed himself to get hosed and continues to. His threads thrive on drama. Look at the title of this one. I can label him with all 9 of these traits from quotes from his threads. Does that make him BPD?

I treated this witch like a queen. Yea, I let myself get walked over. Many times. I had White Knight syndrome. I finally learned after two breakups that I would not go back. My only crime, or drama as you put it, was rejecting her attempts to suck me back in.

If you think I am thriving on this, you <are wrong>

Edited May 15, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Edited out personally offensive comments

May 13, 2012

Interesting topic. I think NC is the only option. I was with my gf for eighteen months and we were friends leading up to that for quite a while. I thought she was sensitive but had no idea about BPD. It is the extremes in behaviour that are way out of reality that qualify it as DSMV material. Not sure that there will be any recycling because I did inform her about BPD after she left. In return, her going away present was a fabricated RO. I didn't show up to defend it and it has been two years since. Her ex previous to me got one also. The sad thing is she has kids with him and me (she was pregnant within a few months). She triangulated with another guy on and off during our relationship and despite him telling me nothing happened, still told me he slept in her bed overnight. There were so many break ups and strange excuses for not wanting to be together. I was smeared as the bad guy to her family. Went from intense love to total detachment and indifference. I wonder how my child is going and will be taking steps to establish paternity as soon as I have saved up enough. I make videos and have cards here which one day hopefully they will receive. Friends have warned me that she will make contact although I cannot see this happening as I told her what I thought of her crazy bahviour. It takes time to detox from these relationships and also see our part and take responsibility for allowing it past a healthy use by date.

Edited May 13, 2012 by ncbpdex

May 13, 2012

Ncbpdex, thanks for sharing your experience with a BPDer ex. Yes, RO's are handed out like candy to children. I do hope you will quickly take action to establish whether the child is yours and, if so, will help support your child. Being raised by a BPDer mother is going to be rough enough by itself.

May 14, 2012

I have been paying as much CS as I can however there is little I can do involving custody as I already have children at home with me. I want to be able to visit or help where possible however I don't know how easy that will be with my ex and her pointed hatred. It may have to be done through the courts which is her second home. She used to brag about anybody taking her on because she can act so innocent. The first time I met her she looked so sad. Hard to imagine that she was this domineering spiteful person when she left. I was thinking of writing to the ex's family and letting them know that he is welcome but they hide in shame and keep their daughter out of sight. I'm not sure there is much I can do, but I welcome your suggestions. It's very sad.

Edited May 14, 2012 by ncbpdex

May 14, 2012

there is little I can do involving custody as I already have children at home with me. I want to be able to visit or help where possible however I don't know how easy that will be with my ex and her pointed hatred. It may have to be done through the courts which is her second home.

If you don't want 50% custody -- which any American court would hand to you no matter how innocent she looks -- you should NOT be going hat in hand and "asking" for visitation rights from a vindictive BPDer. Instead, you should hire an attorney and go to court -- the sooner the better. The longer you wait, the more it will look like you don't have a serious interest in your own child.

May 14, 2012

Well all you naysayers can dance with glee now; I got my butt handed to me in court. My RO got thrown out and there is a 4 year injunction against me.

And I did...what again? Oh yea, I removed myself from an unhealthy relationship, moved on, ignored her childishness until it got threatening, acted within the law only to watch a woman that I once loved lie under oath and paint such a horrid picture of me that the judge was giving me lectures by the time it was over.

I feel like crawling into a hole somewhere

May 14, 2012

A breakup is a breakup. It's not about winning or losing. It's not a battle or a war.

Silver is taking things too personally. Her actions are projections of her own internal struggles. They have NO REFLECTION on Silver himself . This isn't a game, this is her trying to figure out herself. Pouring gasoline on a fire by calling the police or getting a restraining order is not going to fix the problem. Of her.

Silver can do one of 2 things ignore them go NC and move forward or empathize and understand this has nothing to do with him

Like I said, keep pouring gas on a fire or let the fire extinguish with time.

I learned that battle years ago. Just let it go

If you were a woman or op was a woman then I would agree something might need to be done but you both are men.

4 Weeks ago, Idiots argued with me....

Kept pouring GASOLINE ON A FIRE.

Well all you naysayers can dance with glee now; I got my butt handed to me in court. My RO got thrown out and there is a 4 year injunction against me.

Who got burned? She didnt

Like I said, lets discuss BPD and blame the ex more because the OP and most people here do not have the self control to let things go.

Now, go look in front of a mirror and close your eyes and chant "Mirror mirror on the wall, who is to blame for my fall" and then open your eyes

May 14, 2012

I got my butt handed to me in court. My RO got thrown out and there is a 4 year injunction against me.

Silver, I am so sorry the court fell for her act and nonsense. Was it the fabricated letter that you mentioned earlier? When it comes to family and dating disputes, judges seem to have a bias against the men.

My exW, for example, easily talked the police into believing that I had "brutalized" her -- leading them to put me in jail. On the way to the jail, they told me that their usual procedure, whenever there was doubt about blame, was to arrest whoever did NOT make the call to police -- and to let the judge figure it out during arraignment. Unfortunately, because it was early on a Saturday morning, I was in jail for nearly three days before I could go before a judge late on Monday afternoon. So, having been on the receiving end of injustice, I feel your pain, Silver.

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