Harrasment update: Cops last night, restraining order next?

[wilsonx]

Like I said, keep pouring gas on a fire or let the fire extinguish with time.

 

I learned that battle years ago. Just let it go

 

If you were a woman or op was a woman then I would agree something might need to be done but you both are men.

[SilverBlueAndGold]

Like I said, keep pouring gas on a fire or let the fire extinguish with time.

 

I learned that battle years ago. Just let it go

 

If you were a woman or op was a woman then I would agree something might need to be done but you both are men.

 

I am confused, where do you see gas being poured on a fire here?

[wilsonx]

talking to sensei art critic

 

hes all about winning and losing etc

[SilverBlueAndGold]

talking to sensei art critic

 

hes all about winning and losing etc

 

Gotcha. I am with you on this one, I don't care about winning or losing either. I just want to live my life in peace.

[Downtown]

I have seen many symptoms and behaviour patterns that lean towards my ex being a textbook Borderline Personality Waif.

Perhaps, SB&G. But the behaviors you are describing in this post -- the vindictiveness, quick Jekyll-Hyde transformations, black-white thinking, verbal abuse, and direct confrontation -- do NOT lean toward a BPD waif at all. Rather, they are classic traits of a regular BPDer, nearly all of whom direct their anger outward against their partners when that anger is triggered. In contrast, a BPDer waif would direct the anger inward, showing it outwardly only in the form of passive-aggressiveness and icy withdrawal.

 

I therefore suggest you read my description of a typical BPDer in Rebel's thread at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/separation-divorce/275289-crazy-i-think-but-i-love-her-anyway#post3398735. If that discussion rings a bell, I would be glad to discuss it with you and point you to good online resources. Take care, SB&G.

[SilverBlueAndGold]

Good grief, now I see a fake facebook page with my name. I wonder who put that up.

 

[HollyBolly]

Good grief, now I see a fake facebook page with my name. I wonder who put that up.

 

 

Pay no heed. Let it go. You don't need to pay it any attention. What you need is learn how to breathe.

 

Let it go, my friend.

 

Breathe through your belly.

 

[Art_Critic]

talking to sensei art critic

 

hes all about winning and losing etc

 

hahahaha.. you are funny....

 

I'm not all about winning and losing but as someone who has experience in some of what has been discussed here concerning court orders I would suggest that yes when TPO's are granted then it does become a battle that HAS to be won or lost.

The courts don't just grant ties and decide cases to be ties.... they clearly show a winner and a loser.

 

I am suggesting that the OP leave her alone before he goes down a legal path that can very well turn into a battle.

 

You keep talking to me as if this is just a breakup.. it isn't dude.. he is going to the police and having reports made.. that goes past a breakup is a breakup..

 

You seem to be centering on my advice and disagreeing with it because of my take on GIGS rather than looking at the advice I'm giving the OP.. you can do that if you like but it isn't helping the OP.

[gibson]

It's not love... until there is a restraining order.

[HollyBolly]

hahahaha.. you are funny....

 

I'm not all about winning and losing but as someone who has experience in some of what has been discussed here concerning court orders I would suggest that yes when TPO's are granted then it does become a battle that HAS to be won or lost.

The courts don't just grant ties and decide cases to be ties.... they clearly show a winner and a loser.

 

I am suggesting that the OP leave her alone before he goes down a legal path that can very well turn into a battle.

 

You keep talking to me as if this is just a breakup.. it isn't dude.. he is going to the police and having reports made.. that goes past a breakup is a breakup..

 

You seem to be centering on my advice and disagreeing with it because of my take on GIGS rather than looking at the advice I'm giving the OP.. you can do that if you like but it isn't helping the OP.

 

Here they go again...

[wilsonx]

mine is bigger!

[whichwayisup]

Good grief, now I see a fake facebook page with my name. I wonder who put that up.

 

 

Let cops know she's done this and also report the page to facebook.

 

Whatever you do, don't reply to anything she sends you. SILENCE is the key here and if you react and reply, it'll be worse than ignoring. She is waiting for any kind of reaction.

 

Get the RO. She's crazy.

[SilverBlueAndGold]

Well, here we go again. I thought it was getting quiet but another letter turned up. This time she enclosed a letter that is threatening to her that is obviously forged. The accompanying letter is filled with "How could you do this to me " and "my daughter is scared" and if I don't respond to her to work this out and apologize she will go to authorities.

 

This is ludicrous, and I am shocked and appalled that she would go to the lengths of forging a letter (even mailing it to herself, she photocopied the envelope with her address that looks like it was written left handed) , parade it in front of her own flesh and blood to scare her and make me look like I am an enemy.

 

I am speechless.

 

 

Do I ignore this too and wait for her to fabricate who knows what else??

[Downtown]

This is ludicrous, and I am shocked and appalled that she would go to the lengths of forging a letter (even mailing it to herself, she photocopied the envelope with her address that looks like it was written left handed) , parade it in front of her own flesh and blood to scare her and make me look like I am an enemy.

SB&G, as I said a week ago (post #30 above), the vindictive behavior, verbal abuse, and stalking are classic traits of BPD. Because BPDers are convinced they are eternal "victims," they often will go to great lengths to prove to their friends that their ex-BFs were evil and abusive.

Do I ignore this too and wait for her to fabricate who knows what else?

I suggest you read a little about BPD traits so you have a better understanding of what it is you are dealing with. Again, I suggest you read my description of a typical BPDer at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/separation-divorce/275289-crazy-i-think-but-i-love-her-anyway#post3398735 to see if it rings a bell.

 

I also suggest you read T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York.

[SilverBlueAndGold]

SB&G, as I said a week ago (post #30 above), the vindictive behavior, verbal abuse, and stalking are classic traits of BPD. Because BPDers are convinced they are eternal "victims," they often will go to great lengths to prove to their friends that their ex-BFs were evil and abusive.I suggest you read a little about BPD traits so you have a better understanding of what it is you are dealing with. Again, I suggest you read my description of a typical BPDer at http://www.loveshack.org/forums/breaking-up-reconciliation-coping/separation-divorce/275289-crazy-i-think-but-i-love-her-anyway#post3398735 to see if it rings a bell.

 

I also suggest you read T9 Surviving a Break-up with Someone Suffering with Borderline Personality Disorder - Columbia University, New York.

 

Downtown, I have read your posts and even have some of your wisdom saved because it so clearly defines what I have been experiencing.

 

So I appreciate that. But am not clear about your message with this post, are you suggesting I ignore this behavior?

[Downtown]

Downtown, ... are you suggesting I ignore this behavior?

No, more than anything, I was simply inquiring. You have been extraordinarily open-minded, SB&G, about considering a wide variety of possible explanations for your exGF's perplexing behavior. Indeed, you were very clear above about you willingness to consider the relevance of "waif BPD" traits.

 

Yet, when I noted that you were describing much more traditional BPD traits -- not waif BPD traits -- you did not respond. I therefore was concerned that you may be overlooking a large body of literature that may be very helpful in your situation.

 

Of course, your last post fully removes that concern. I am very pleased to hear that you've been reading about the classic BPD traits, as well as about the waifs. Whether any of the BPD traits actually apply to your exGF is a determination I cannot make. I nonetheless am confident that, once you are familiar with what those classic traits look like, you will be able to spot any strong red flags that have occurred.

[SilverBlueAndGold]

No, more than anything, I was simply inquiring. You have been extraordinarily open-minded, SB&G, about considering a wide variety of possible explanations for your exGF's perplexing behavior. Indeed, you were very clear above about you willingness to consider the relevance of "waif BPD" traits.

 

Yet, when I noted that you were describing much more traditional BPD traits -- not waif BPD traits -- you did not respond. I therefore was concerned that you may be overlooking a large body of literature that may be very helpful in your situation.

 

Of course, your last post fully removes that concern. I am very pleased to hear that you've been reading about the classic BPD traits, as well as about the waifs. Whether any of the BPD traits actually apply to your exGF is a determination I cannot make. I nonetheless am confident that, once you are familiar with what those classic traits look like, you will be able to spot any strong red flags that have occurred.

 

Ah gotcha. Yea over the past year I have been reading a lot about personality disorders since my gut was telling me early on that something wasn't right. I will never forget one article that said something like "That feeling you have when you meet one that something is not right but can't put your finger on is your primeval instinct alerting you that you have detected a predator that is camouflaged. "

 

Maybe a little spacey and out there but it stuck with me.

[SilverBlueAndGold]

RO was filed, court this week. I think she is being her predictable vindictive childish self because I see an order against me too.

 

This is absurd. This woman has absolutely nothing on me, at all. But I am still nervous because I am not naive about our legal system....being right does not always win

[geegirl]

SB&G, as I said a week ago (post #30 above), the vindictive behavior, verbal abuse, and stalking are classic traits of BPD. Because BPDers are convinced they are eternal "victims," they often will go to great lengths to prove to their friends that their ex-BFs were evil and abusive.

 

I'm experiencing this with someone and am now curious to read about BPD. It's erratic and somewhat disturbing. This was very helpful. Thanks for posting.

[Downtown]

GeeGirl, I'm glad to hear you found the BPD information helpful. If you want a good book, I suggest reading the #1 best-selling BPD book that is targeted to the spouses and partners. It is called Stop Walking on Eggshells. Another good book is I Hate You, Don't Leave Me! Take care, GeeGirl.

[geegirl]

GeeGirl, I'm glad to hear you found the BPD information helpful. If you want a good book, I suggest reading the #1 best-selling BPD book that is targeted to the spouses and partners. It is called Stop Walking on Eggshells. Another good book is I Hate You, Don't Leave Me! Take care, GeeGirl.

 

I'm finding it very helpful in understanding the behaviors that go from one extreme to another. One moment you're the greatest love and the next you're despicable. And going to great lengths to garner approval from people by painting you black. I found the book "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me" online and I decided to get it as the title speaks plainly and closely to what I am dealing with. Take care too Downtown. Thanks for your insight!

[Mack05]

Again I wouldn't be so fast to label her with BPD. Downtown is the man when it comes to this topic but without having met her and not being a professional it's not fair to diagnose her, although knowing Downtown I am sure he is only try to guide you.

 

BPD is predominantly found in women, not men...I guess that's the first key thing. The sympthoms should be obvious...OP if you don't notice any of the below then I don't believe it is BPD your ex suffers from..Afterall there are many afflications out there. None of us are perfect.

 

1) Childhood trama and/or bad inter-family relations

2) Previous self harm attempts

3) Hyper sensitivity

4) Limitied communication or coping skills.

5) Unresolved anger

6) Refuses to ever take accountabilty, always looks to project and gaslight onto you..

7) Huge one here. Distortion and manipulation of the facts. You tell her a story and in a fight it comes back at you, not even remotely resembling the original story.

8) Anxiety issues.

9) Many higher-functioning Borderlines become psychotherapists (yikes!) due to never having resolved their own core trauma issues.

10) Splitting; idealizing or devaluing behaviors, love you/hate you, and black or white perceptions/ideations

11) Full list here at end of article-> IF LOOKS COULD KILL - Anatomy of a Borderline

 

Can I tell you the biggest lesson(s) I have learnt from having an ex with BPD...

 

1) Disengage immediately when something feels wrong. Trust me after the honeymoon period something should feel wrong...In your case things have gone way beyond that with you. You need to literally disappear until all this calms down. She is going to look at hurting you in as many ways as she can. These attempts will set you back. You must literally disappear from her world.

 

2) Find out what you were attracted to her in the first place. Borderlines in the main are attracted to a) Narcissists -> HAVEN'T WE MET BEFORE? The Borderline/Narcissist Couple and b) Codependents ->

Can an Abusive Borderline Personality Disorder Woman Really Change? « A Shrink for Men Google and you will get even more info. Can you see either in yourself?

 

3) Under no circumstances ever tell a woman she suffers from BPD. She will project and gaslight onto you. Indeed she will try and convince you that you have BPD. I know Downtown will agree with me here. This article -> How Can I Help The Borderline In My Life - Xavier Amador. PhD explains why you must never tell her. She is not ready to see the truth and she is in WAAAYYYY too much denial. In her mind the world is flat and you can prove it a million ways that its round, have a million people tell her its round, it won't make the slightest difference. These girls have the most complex defense mechanisms and you will never understand her psychosis. It will ALWAYS be your fault. You are a monster. You are sick. I hate you, actually means "I am a monster, I am sick, I hate myself".

 

They just can't admit that to themselves even though they know something is fundamentally wrong. That is why many borderlines go to therapy, they feel 'something' is wrong. Therapy doesn't work as the borderline is not being honest with herself (and not the therapist) and BPD is hard to diagnose when someone is totally delusional to the real extent of their predicament. Blame, deny, move on is what they will always do....What they don't understand is until they resolve what was the past, except that there is a serious problem with themselves, they can never be happy. Never be in a healthy relationship. It's so much easier to stay in the dream world they have created for themselves.

 

Detangling from a BPDer is one of the hardest things I have ever had to do. I hated the person I was becoming when in any proximity with my last ex. These girls are like poison in your system. They will do anything and everything to avoid looking in the mirror and deep within their soul. They will take you down to the depths of their self loathing and it will leave you confused, battered and broken. You will even start to question yourself -> COULD MY BPD LOVER BE RIGHT ABOUT ME?? The Borderline and You

 

I am determined to rebuild and reprogram myself after my last relationship. I really let myself down throughout my ordeal and it literally was an ordeal with her. For me it's about conquering the confusion, insecurities, self esteem and regaining self confidence and self belief. In my last R 'my word' meant little as I was so entangled in her crazy world. I badly wanted out (on many occasions) but was compelled to stay due to my insecurities and my desperate need to 'help' her.

 

I wanted to help right until the end. I gained acceptance it was over. I made attempts to gain peace/closure/goodwill for us both. After a final attempt of peace on my b-day I lost my cool. After 4 months of non stop verbal and emotional abuse from her, I snapped and told her my real feelings towards her...I kept looking for the nice person I thought she was. That nice person simply doesn't exist. It's just the facade she uses to reel you in. What's underneath is very dark and very sinister and when you discover it, guess whose fault it is? They twist, distort and manipulate and after awhile you begin to lose your sense of 'self'. There has to be big weaknesses in your own personal 'makeup' for anyone to allow that to happen to them.

 

You can't help someone that doesn't want to be helped. Healthy relationships never involve 'helping' or 'changing' someone. We will never understand or comprehend what they went through as kids. Some people will always live in denial. Always blaming, always projecting/gaslighting, always angry, always resentful. If she has BPD believe me when I tell you there is NOTHING you can do...You must for your own health disengage and focus on your own recovery. Take it from two guys (Downtown and me) that have been there done that. Downtown sadly far longer then I had too...I have had a combined 18 months in a washer dryer 1000 Revs a minute tailspin. I think I may need the same amount of time single to learn from the ordeals I went through. Why I went through them and what I need to do to 'help' me for the future. To become a better man/partner.

 

I have made a promise to myself to never met a woman like my ex again. Another promise to be someon'e best ever boyfriend. We can only do this by forgiving them, letting them go and putting the hard work in on ourselves. Buying books to analyze what is wrong with them (especially if you meet someone new in the meantime) is a silly pointless exercise from my personal experience. It's just a delay to truly turning things inwards for yourself. You need to buy books to fix what is wrong with yourself. 'Being honest with yourself' is the one thing she can never do. Don't lead the life she is heading toward. I wish you well...For me its Game Over, move on..Can't make peace with her, can never 'help' her but I can with myself...

Edited May 8, 2012 by Mack05

[Downtown]

Mack, as you've done so many times before on this forum, you provide a wealth of insightful information on how to spot strong BPD traits and avoid toxic relationships. My experience differs from yours on only two small issues:

BPD is predominantly found in women, not men...

True, that is what is found (i.e., recorded as a diagnosis) in clinical settings. Yet, as I tried to explain above, the vast majority of BPD diagnoses never get recorded as such. Instead, the patients are "diagnosed" as having a related comorbid Axis I disorder like PTSD or depression -- that will be covered by insurance and won't scare the patient away. Moreover, there seems to be a bias for therapists to mistakenly list male BPDers -- but not female BPDers -- as having Antisocial PD. What is found in clinical settings, then, is a poor guide to what actually exists in the general population.

 

Significantly, the only large scale study ever done to determine the prevalence of BPD found that about 6% of the population has BPD at the diagnostic level at some point in their lives. Moreover, this percentage was found to be the same for both men and women -- a great surprise because clinical "findings" had indicated for many decades that it was far more prevalent in women. The full results of this study (funded by the National Institute of Mental Health) are shown at Prevalence, Correlates, Disability, and Comorbidity of DSM-IV Borderline Personality Disorder: Results from the Wave 2 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions.

Buying books to analyze what is wrong with them (especially if you meet someone new in the meantime) is a silly pointless exercise from my personal experience.

True -- for the vast majority of people who dated a BPDer. But it is rare for those folks to come here to pour out their hearts on LoveShack. Instead, they simply walk away. Hence, most of the folks we see here who are stuck in a toxic relationship are excessive caregivers (i.e., "codependent") like you and me, Mack.

 

This means they are so empathetic and have such weak personal boundaries that they cannot tell where their own problems leave off and those of their partners begin. My experience with folks like that (i.e., like us) is that you don't get very far by telling them they are excessive caregivers. After all, their religion tells them that self sacrifice is the only path to heaven. Nor does it help to say that they are "codependent" because they are convinced they are "only trying to help."

 

I therefore have had the greatest success with these codependents by guiding them to articles and books that clearly explain why their partners are dysfunctional and why they cannot be fixed unless they decide to fix themselves. Once the partners' problems are clearly defined, the codependents are able to easily see -- by subtraction -- their own role in the toxic relationship. At that point -- and ONLY at that point -- do most of them become receptive to the idea of reading about codependency.

 

Several years ago, I had much success in reaching out to codependents on a psych forum that had separate message boards for every disorder. Yet, because codependents do not believe they have a problem, I could not meet them on a "codependent" board. Instead, I met them on a "BPD" board where I participated. Indeed, I attracted so many of them that, within six months, they were coming out of the woodwork and were outnumbering the BPDers by 2 to 1.

 

They came only because they wanted information about BPD but, once they had it, they quickly realized there must be something wrong about their willingness to tolerate abuse for years in a futile effort to "fix" a person that does not want to be fixed. Moreover, once they realized their enabling behavior was actually harming their BPD partners, they were suddenly freed from the terrible guilt that was keeping them mired in a toxic relationship.

 

At the end of the six months, the board moderator (a BPDer who had been on a year leave for a personal crisis) returned and was horrified to see all of us codependents on the BPD board. So she kicked us all off and changed the board policy, restricting it to BPDers.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Downtown

[Mack05]

Downtown great post. I love the part...."This means they (and me) are so empathetic and have such weak personal boundaries that they cannot tell where their own problems leave off and those of their partners begin. My experience with folks like that (i.e., like us) is that you don't get very far by telling them they are excessive caregivers. After all, their religion tells them that self sacrifice is the only path to heaven. Nor does it help to say that they are "codependent" because they are convinced they are "only trying to help"

 

Detangling myself from two toxic relationships has really made me question myself. I have made huge progress in my physical apperance and my financial situation, but I still lack in the other two area's we should all focus on emotional health/maturity and spirituality (don't pray and go as much to church as I should).

 

Right till the end of my last R I wanted to help. I knew the relationship wasn't right but I still wanted to 'open her eyes' after my break up and was willing to go to any lengths to 'open her eyes'. I was beyond determined that I'd be the one that gave her the great life she always wanted, even though I wouldn't be the guy waking up with her every morning. I have found it enormously hard to cut the chord forever. I have no idea why. We have had just the worst relationship and ending ever..Yet I still wanted to try open her eyes..I wanted her to go to Therapy, say "I have BPD" she comes back years later thanking me. Job done. Satisfaction all round...Very delusional guy I am.

 

She of course never wanted my 'help'. She feels I am at fault for everything and there is nothing wrong with her. If I questioned her lies; she projected/gaslighted straight back onto me. Because BPDers are so clever at manipulating they really mess with your mind. Honestly I don't know myself anymore and in anyway that is a good thing. I am awesome at reading EXACTLY what is wrong with her, but seeing what my own issues and exactly what the intricacies of what these issues are...well, that has not been so fruitful (even after Therapy). The irony is I say to here the whole time "you don't know the real extent of your issues". Right back at you Mack.

 

I do know that time on my own is crucial now. Just reflect and try absorb the lessons from the past 18 months. I think a huge day for me will be when I feel absolutely no need to try 'help' my ex. An even bigger day will be finding a girl, I have no urge whatsoever to help and never will. Finding a girl who when I make a promise to her, I never break it. It feels I am so far away from that now and I am not entirely sure how to get there.

 

My ex hates me and I see actually where she is coming from. When 'help' comes that you don't want, need or appreciate from someone who has hurt you and that you no longer respect, I too would get pissed. Can I ask Downtown what you did to stop this desire to 'help'? How you worked on your own codependent issues? Any advice greatly appreciated.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Mack05

[Downtown]

An even bigger day will be finding a girl, I have no urge whatsoever to help and never will.

Mack, you surely don't mean this. Like you, when I'm tired or in a hurry, I sometimes "over-reach" in trying to make a point -- and then I have to heavily qualify it the next day in order to back away from it.

Can I ask Downtown what you did to stop this desire to 'help'?

I never tried to stop wanting to help people, Mack. Neither should you. Rather, our objective is to simply add "ourselves" to the list of people we are helping. And, until we have young children to protect, we likely should put ourselves at the top of that list. Mental health is all about achieving the right balance, not about going from one extreme to the other.