Feminists are ruining men.

[Els]

Maybe I just like paying for my dates meals; why does that make me less of a lady, or more of a dude? Why does behavior have to be regulated to gender; why can't it just be a matter of "this is what I, as an individual, like to do for my romantic partner"?

 

I tried to answer this in my most recent post to you, I think.

[verhrzn]

I tried to answer this in my most recent post to you, I think.

 

Yeah, you sited social constructs. But you never argued why we shouldn't be fighting against them. Why shouldn't we be questioning the fact that we arbitrarily decide what behaviors are "masculine" and "feminine"? Why shouldn't we be fighting to be seen as individuals?

 

As to the "consequences"... well, I guess if my insisting on paying for a meal is so gender-offensive to men, so be it. I wouldn't want to be with a guy with such strict gender roles, anyway, because I want to be me.... a woman who is both masculine and feminine, in different ways and in different situations.

[FrustratedStandards]

At least you are consistent and fair about it but I still prefer an equal partnership. I do think men and women can appreciate our differences and I do tend to be attracted to women with a more feminine personality which is not odds with being independent and strong but I don't buy into the one person makes the money and one person does the housework thing.

 

I will open doors and be chivalrous on dates but money does not grow on trees and I am not spending big money until a woman proves herself. I will spend money on my wife without a thought but for a first date if I do pay it is something cheap and affordable. I actually had a woman on a first date get mad at me because I wouldn't take her shopping in New York. How absurd is that?

 

For the bolded part, that's how I feel about men. Part of masculinity is being able to take his role as a man, and a man's role in my mind is a man who can be a breadwinner.

 

As for the shopping in NY, holy GOODNESS where do you find crazies like this?

 

Those women can like or dislike whatever they wish. They also don't have to be feminists to dislike those things. To me men are mainly ruining themselves.

 

Egh to me it's society's lack of focus on earning respect, giving respect, etiquette, and manners that have breed disrespectful generation that many men don't know how to be gentleman and many women don't know how to be ladies.

 

That's that man's choice to continue or discontinue the behavior.

Quite interesting that there are plenty of things men get yelled at and rejected for but seems like the chivalrous actions are the ones they stop doing.

 

Egh whoever is to blame I give them a big thank you for the death of chivalry.

 

I agree. I think that part of the reason why men are less chivalrous is because they don't see any real women to be chivalrous to. These days, there are so many skanks (and by that I don't mean many seexual partners) and slobs and rude women who don't take care of themselves.

 

I consider myself a feminist and have noticed I've practically "ruined" some men, so I guess it's true to some extent.

 

IMHO: A man doesn't blame shifting social norms for his inability to be himself. Same goes for women. Some folks simply appreciate old fashion gestures more then others and some find it annoying. Find someone who likes you for you. Easier said then done? Don't be so hard on yourself maybe.

 

I appreciate them, yes. But it's becoming more and more difficult to find. Chivalry is not as common as it used to be.

 

Why does it have to be an issue of gender at all? Why can't you just make him a home cooked meal because that's the kind of person you are? Why does it have to be a "woman" thing?

 

Maybe I just like paying for my dates meals; why does that make me less of a lady, or more of a dude? Why does behavior have to be regulated to gender; why can't it just be a matter of "this is what I, as an individual, like to do for my romantic partner"?

 

I would respond to this with the following.

 

Because I personally do enjoy the fact that men and women are different and that men and women CAN fit into many different roles. It is partically waht makes things exciting. I do not want to move in to a unic-society where gender is completely obliterated and everything becomes "person", completely overriding the fact that men and women are different genders for a reason.

 

And it does not make you less of a lady or dude to pay for meals or cook them. Men can be awesome masculine cooks. But I do like gender lines as long as they are respectful.

[FrustratedStandards]

Yeah, you sited social constructs. But you never argued why we shouldn't be fighting against them. Why shouldn't we be questioning the fact that we arbitrarily decide what behaviors are "masculine" and "feminine"? Why shouldn't we be fighting to be seen as individuals?

 

If masculinity and femininity didn't exist, then why on earth would we ever be attracted to the opposite sex?

 

There wouldn't even be a need for an opposite sex to exist. We would just be one sex, one gender and procreate that way.

 

And I don't see how being masculine or feminine makes you "less of an individual".

[Woggle]

By feminine I don't mean roles but a more feminine personality and look. No offense to anybody but I am not really into butch women though I do think short hair can look great if done right. I don't think most women are into men who dress like women except for a brief moment back in the 80s. I very much prefer an equal partnership in a relationship. I like cooking too much to leave that role to her.

 

I met her at an event sponsored by my former company and when I told her I used to live in NYC she wanted me to show her the spots and take her shopping at some high end boutiques. I didn't mind showing her the spots but I looked at her like she had two heads when she wanted me to take her shopping.

[verhrzn]

If masculinity and femininity didn't exist, then why on earth would we ever be attracted to the opposite sex?

 

There wouldn't even be a need for an opposite sex to exist. We would just be one sex, one gender and procreate that way.

 

And I don't see how being masculine or feminine makes you "less of an individual".

 

Because we all have aspects of both. Some men can be feminine, some women can be masculine. I'm not saying that they don't exist, or shouldn't exist; I'm arguing that we stop associating them with particular behaviors, and more importantly, particular genders.

 

In your construct of "masculine and feminine are what makes opposite sex partners attracted!" then how do you explain same-sex couples? Same-sex couples in which both partners are massively "feminine"?

 

If you're a more feminine woman, fine, look for a more masculine man to balance you out, but let's stop insisting that men must be masculine, and women must be feminine. Just let people be whatever they are.

[FrustratedStandards]

By feminine I don't mean roles but a more feminine personality and look. No offense to anybody but I am not really into butch women though I do think short hair can look great if done right. I don't think most women are into men who dress like women except for a brief moment back in the 80s. I very much prefer an equal partnership in a relationship. I like cooking too much to leave that role to her.

 

I understood what you meant, and that's fine. But what i'm trying to convey is that masculine for me is a man who can provide. To me, masculinity is far more than physical.

 

Because we all have aspects of both. Some men can be feminine, some women can be masculine. I'm not saying that they don't exist, or shouldn't exist; I'm arguing that we stop associating them with particular behaviors, and more importantly, particular genders.

 

In your construct of "masculine and feminine are what makes opposite sex partners attracted!" then how do you explain same-sex couples? Same-sex couples in which both partners are massively "feminine"?

 

If you're a more feminine woman, fine, look for a more masculine man to balance you out, but let's stop insisting that men must be masculine, and women must be feminine. Just let people be whatever they are.

 

I'm not arguing your point. What i'm trying to say is that I grew up WITH that behavior being associated with masculinity. The way I was raised, and in the culture that I am from, a man is masculine if he can provide.

 

This is engrained in my brain, and this is what I find attractive.

 

I don't know how same sex couples operates. Frankly, i'm not concerned with that.

[verhrzn]

I'm not arguing your point. What i'm trying to say is that I grew up WITH that behavior being associated with masculinity. The way I was raised, and in the culture that I am from, a man is masculine if he can provide.

 

This is engrained in my brain, and this is what I find attractive.

 

I don't know how same sex couples operates. Frankly, i'm not concerned with that.

 

Fine, but you're pressing your preferences onto everyone else by claiming that feminism somehow "ruined" men. Or that men are ruined to begin with, just because they don't act in the masculine ways you expect.

[FrustratedStandards]

Fine, but you're pressing your preferences onto everyone else by claiming that feminism somehow "ruined" men. Or that men are ruined to begin with, just because they don't act in the masculine ways you expect.

 

But it has had a HUGE effect!

 

Like you said, we put certain traits to masculinity and femininity. Before, we associated masculinity with a man paying for a date.

 

Now that that's out the window, men don't bother paying anymore! Why? Because society says they don't have to, they are no less of a man if the woman pays.

 

So yes, I do blame some aspects of feminism. The death of chivalry is a by-product.

[Els]

Yeah, you sited social constructs. But you never argued why we shouldn't be fighting against them. Why shouldn't we be questioning the fact that we arbitrarily decide what behaviors are "masculine" and "feminine"? Why shouldn't we be fighting to be seen as individuals?

 

Because if we fight that, it will never end until men and women all act, talk, dress, behave, and operate alike. Or should never end, unless we want to be selective, which I think is slightly hypocritical if you fight for a selective cause, as opposed to just personally preferring it. I'm not certain that completely removing all definitions of masculine and feminine, to the point of a completely androgynous society, is the best idea. Equality is one thing, but similarity is an entirely different one. Would YOU want such a society?

 

As to the "consequences"... well, I guess if my insisting on paying for a meal is so gender-offensive to men, so be it. I wouldn't want to be with a guy with such strict gender roles, anyway, because I want to be me.... a woman who is both masculine and feminine, in different ways and in different situations.

 

I think that's great. However, you have been complaining that men you know don't view you as a woman oftentimes, and I'm simply saying that this could be one of the causes. I don't think some of them find it 'offensive', so much as it makes them feel that you want to be treated as 'one of the boys'. Of course, being seen as 'one of the boys' is fine - in fact, I purposefully do so with some of my male friends, so as to keep things platonic and drama-free. We happily cuss out one another, go dutch whenever we eat together, and they are completely comfortable talking about other women with me, in a way that they would rarely be with women that they view as 'women'. But that's what I want, because I'm not interested in a romantic relationship with them. Is that what YOU want?

 

IMO, you need to take things that men, especially some men on online forums, say that men want a woman to do, with a grain of salt. Men have claimed that they want a woman who always insists on paying, and who comes right up to them and offers them sex point blank. But my honest conversations with men, in the 'one of the boys' capacity that I described previously, has shown otherwise. So has my observation of the types of women that men tend to choose.

 

I was once conversing with one of my platonic male friends, as we were in a group observing the women in a bar on St Patrick's Day. His comment was, 'Gosh, if I didn't have a girlfriend, I would be so getting laid tonight'. Further along, he confided, 'Those (I paraphrased this sentence, so as to prevent this from deteriorating into a racism thread) girls are really easy. You don't even need to pay for anything, and they'll come right up to you and have sex with you that very night.' But this guy isn't in a relationship with a girl like that. He's in a relationship with a girl he pursues, who lets him treat her like a gentleman, and whom I think has not put out for him yet.

 

I think we have made much progress in evolving gender roles, but I don't think they have evolved to the point where the majority of men don't want a woman whom they can treat like a lady, yet. Sure, different people want different things. But for the most part, I think many men still want a woman who doesn't take offense to him treating her like a 'lady', whatever that word means to the individual person.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Elswyth

[Chicago_Guy]

I went a little extreme with the title, but I figured it would get your attention.

 

The right to vote, the right to work, the right for education. Yes, all good things and I would have fought for them myself.

 

However, there are those women who don't like it when a man holds the door for her. "I can hold it myself". They don't let a man pay on dates "I can pay for myself" among other things.

 

These are the extremes of course, and not all feminists are like that. HOWEVER, these women are ruining men. Chivalry is dying because of this.

 

All this "I can do everything myself" attitude has turned men into losers who don't know how to be gentlemen. How many times have I heard guys say they don't do something anymore because they got yelled at or rejected for doing it (kissing a girl on the hand, or holding the door open for her for example).

 

These types of women are ruining it for the rest of us. I don't blame men that chivalry is dead. I blame the women.

 

I make good money myself, but I have to say that a woman paying for her portion on a date is not a bad thing at all! What is worse is when a woman expects a man to pay for everything yet is still a big feminist with respect to everything else.

[prune juice]

I went a little extreme with the title, but I figured it would get your attention.

 

The right to vote, the right to work, the right for education. Yes, all good things and I would have fought for them myself.

 

However, there are those women who don't like it when a man holds the door for her. "I can hold it myself". They don't let a man pay on dates "I can pay for myself" among other things.

 

These are the extremes of course, and not all feminists are like that. HOWEVER, these women are ruining men. Chivalry is dying because of this.

 

All this "I can do everything myself" attitude has turned men into losers who don't know how to be gentlemen. How many times have I heard guys say they don't do something anymore because they got yelled at or rejected for doing it (kissing a girl on the hand, or holding the door open for her for example).

 

These types of women are ruining it for the rest of us. I don't blame men that chivalry is dead. I blame the women.

 

whats ruining us is we don't know whos a feminist and who isn't a feminist or who's halfway a feminist. one gal expects you to hold the door for her and the next is offended we do it.

[FrustratedStandards]

whats ruining us is we don't know whos a feminist and who isn't a feminist or who's halfway a feminist. one gal expects you to hold the door for her and the next is offended we do it.

 

Hmm...

 

I have never considered that. That's really interesting. I suppose there is no way to tell. But there isn't any harm in being a gentleman.

 

You are more likely to get a woman by being a gentleman, than by not doing so.

 

At least I think so.

[soserious1]

What exactly is wrong with the idea that the person who reaches the door first holds it open for their date? What's wrong with the notion that now that women have an equal right to education & jobs that they will go on dates expecting to pay for their portion of the expenses?

 

What exactly is so "sexy" about opening one's wallet? I've been on a lot of dates & I haven't yet had sex with a wallet, why treat men like walking wallets?

[Feelsgoodman]

whats ruining us is we don't know whos a feminist and who isn't a feminist or who's halfway a feminist. one gal expects you to hold the door for her and the next is offended we do it.

The worst are half-feminists like the OP. They want you to treat them and pamper them and spend money on them...and yet they still want the right to vote, so that they could vote in corrupt politicians who pass discriminatory anti-male legislation. They want equal wages...but don't believe in equal spending in the dating context.

[FrustratedStandards]

What exactly is wrong with the idea that the person who reaches the door first holds it open for their date? What's wrong with the notion that now that women have an equal right to education & jobs that they will go on dates expecting to pay for their portion of the expenses?

 

What exactly is so "sexy" about opening one's wallet? I've been on a lot of dates & I haven't yet had sex with a wallet, why treat men like walking wallets?

 

I know this is going to sound harsh, but if a man won't hold a door, give his jacket or pay for the tab, then what good is he for?

 

Being there for me? I have friends for that. I don't need another friend, I need a MAN who can make me feel like a WOMAN (and this applies to more than just sex). I need a MAN who can SHOW that he can take care of me, and treat me like a lady. Not an "equal" like one of his buddies.

 

The worst are half-feminists like the OP. They want you to treat them and pamper them and spend money on them...and yet they still want the right to vote, so that they could vote in corrupt politicians who pass discriminatory anti-male legislation. They want equal wages...but don't believe in equal spending in the dating context.

 

I have never voted in my life. Don't care for it.

 

I don't know about wages, but I make a heck of a lot more than most men.

[Professor X]

Hmm...

 

I have never considered that. That's really interesting. I suppose there is no way to tell. But there isn't any harm in being a gentleman.

 

You are more likely to get a woman by being a gentleman, than by not doing so.

 

At least I think so.

 

His example showed u how it can do harm if he happens to open the door to a gal that takes it as an offense...

It's the same harm as not opening a door to a gal who expected you to.

[FrustratedStandards]

Mistake. Disregard.

[soserious1]

I know this is going to sound harsh, but if a man won't hold a door, give his jacket or pay for the tab, then what good is he for?

 

Being there for me? I have friends for that. I don't need another friend, I need a MAN who can make me feel like a WOMAN (and this applies to more than just sex). I need a MAN who can SHOW that he can take care of me, and treat me like a lady. Not an "equal" like one of his buddies.

 

 

 

The only man required to "protect you & pay for you" was your Daddy & even that requirement ended when you turned 18.

 

Feeling a connection to your innate feminine power, your womanhood, comes from within YOU, not from some poor sap emptying the contents of his wallet to pay for your dinner in hopes that you'll gobble down his penis the same way you slammed down $100 worth of Prime Rib.

[prune juice]

Hmm...

 

I have never considered that. That's really interesting. I suppose there is no way to tell. But there isn't any harm in being a gentleman.

 

You are more likely to get a woman by being a gentleman, than by not doing so.

 

At least I think so.

 

there can be lots of harm in being a gentleman. be a gentleman to the wrong woman and whooo she won't like it and will be offended. i've written off r'ships for now and am going for the sex, with modest success. come out to where i'm at and let me be the man and gosh i could do the r'ship thing again.

[prune juice]

What exactly is wrong with the idea that the person who reaches the door first holds it open for their date? What's wrong with the notion that now that women have an equal right to education & jobs that they will go on dates expecting to pay for their portion of the expenses?

 

What exactly is so "sexy" about opening one's wallet? I've been on a lot of dates & I haven't yet had sex with a wallet, why treat men like walking wallets?

 

waaaaaaaaaaaat? this is why it's so damn difficult. i like to be the man and pay. it's a manly feeling. i like to hold the door. it's manly. why be offended?

[Els]

whats ruining us is we don't know whos a feminist and who isn't a feminist or who's halfway a feminist. one gal expects you to hold the door for her and the next is offended we do it.

 

IMO, if I did a nice thing for a person and he/she was offended (ie opening a door), I would just put the blame on her, not on me. It really isn't your fault if a woman is offended.

[Mme. Chaucer]

IMO, if I did a nice thing for a person and he/she was offended (ie opening a door), I would just put the blame on her, not on me. It really isn't your fault if a woman is offended.

 

Yes, plus, why not behave as you feel is appropriate and "right" for you in each situation? We don't have to adjust to account for the opinions of every person. Just do your best.

[prune juice]

IMO, if I did a nice thing for a person and he/she was offended (ie opening a door), I would just put the blame on her, not on me. It really isn't your fault if a woman is offended.

 

that's accurate, but men can reach a breaking point. we get tired of women being offended and we start not bothering after a time.

[soserious1]

waaaaaaaaaaaat? this is why it's so damn difficult. i like to be the man and pay. it's a manly feeling. i like to hold the door. it's manly. why be offended?

 

If you open a door for me I'm certainly not going to "yell" at you for it. As far as the bill for our meal goes though, I will ask for separate checks when our server first comes to the table, if I really like a guy, I'll excuse myself, head to the restroom & just slip my credit card to the waiter & take care of the entire bill.