stillafool Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 and you sound like those men too. Really? I'm a married woman. those men who have no intentions of marrying their long term gfs are no different from women for whom "marriage is their goal". those men want a girl around but aren't planning on signing their life away to any of them. those women want their white dress, rings, wedding pictures, and the ability to tell their friends that they're married but aren't really concerned with the men they date as much as themselves. this is the situation for slightly more than half of the adult population (the half that wind up divorced). tell me why, as a man, i should want this? You shouldn't. But if you know she wants marriage and you don't. Just let her know and not waste either of your time. Time is what's precious.
thatone Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 You shouldn't. But if you know she wants marriage and you don't. Just let her know and not waste either of your time. Time is what's precious. not precious to me. i have all the time in the world. see that's what i meant, this will turn into 'gender equality'. gender equality means both sides go after what they want and neither owes the other anything. it is not the job of all men to help all women get married.
LnliHrt Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 But it is a job for all women, to give all Men sex, just saying. Not all women agree, but it is their problem....
stillafool Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 not precious to me. i have all the time in the world. see that's what i meant, this will turn into 'gender equality'. gender equality means both sides go after what they want and neither owes the other anything. it is not the job of all men to help all women get married. I agree that it is not the job of any man to help women get married and vice versa. No argument here. I think any person who is not happy in a relationship should leave and find that happiness elsewhere.
zengirl Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 not precious to me. i have all the time in the world. see that's what i meant, this will turn into 'gender equality'. gender equality means both sides go after what they want and neither owes the other anything. it is not the job of all men to help all women get married. Why is it about gender? I understand why the OP phrased it as "men" --- as it's her own insecurity she's querying, and she dates men, but truly anyone could be 'strung along' and it's not a nice thing to do to someone and IF you realize you're doing it, you should stop. That doesn't mean marrying them---it generally means admitting that you don't plan to marry them and dealing with the fallout (probably a breakup). I think time is precious to everyone---maybe you don't want to be rushed into marriage (understandable), but do you really not care about time? Do you really think you have all the time in the world in general (not related to this issue)? Because you're wrong. None of us have all the time in the world, and none of us know how much time we have. We all deserve the chance to go after what we want and be honestly told if a scenario isn't ever going to play out that way. I think people in a relationship owe each other a lot. They owe each other honesty and respect, first and foremost, and that means being honest about your intentions. Women and men should do that, as best they can. They'll fail (because they won't always know their own intentions), but they do owe it to each other, IMO. Though you are right, it is not the job of men, in general, to help women, in general, get married, or vice versa. But if you're in a relationship with a woman, it is your job to be honest with her about your intentions in the relationship, just as it's hers to do the same with you.
Sanman Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 Why is it about gender? I understand why the OP phrased it as "men" --- as it's her own insecurity she's querying, and she dates men, but truly anyone could be 'strung along' and it's not a nice thing to do to someone and IF you realize you're doing it, you should stop. That doesn't mean marrying them---it generally means admitting that you don't plan to marry them and dealing with the fallout (probably a breakup). I think time is precious to everyone---maybe you don't want to be rushed into marriage (understandable), but do you really not care about time? Do you really think you have all the time in the world in general (not related to this issue)? Because you're wrong. None of us have all the time in the world, and none of us know how much time we have. We all deserve the chance to go after what we want and be honestly told if a scenario isn't ever going to play out that way. I think people in a relationship owe each other a lot. They owe each other honesty and respect, first and foremost, and that means being honest about your intentions. Women and men should do that, as best they can. They'll fail (because they won't always know their own intentions), but they do owe it to each other, IMO. Though you are right, it is not the job of men, in general, to help women, in general, get married, or vice versa. But if you're in a relationship with a woman, it is your job to be honest with her about your intentions in the relationship, just as it's hers to do the same with you. The thing is that most people will make rationalizations for what they really want. " I don't want to get married RIGHT NOW" Those two words will keep a person in a relationship with you. "I really want to marry you (it isn't that I am getting older and really want the white dress and the married life)" Maybe it is true and maybe it is not. No one is privileged enough no the inner thoughts of another. Many men and women are in relationships for their own interests and do not even realize it. Are you with this person because you are tired and settling? Are you with your dream person or is your judgment clouded by money and the trappings of wealth that said person may provide? Few people reflect on their actions enough to figure such things out.
zengirl Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 The thing is that most people will make rationalizations for what they really want. " I don't want to get married RIGHT NOW" Those two words will keep a person in a relationship with you. "I really want to marry you (it isn't that I am getting older and really want the white dress and the married life)" And that's true. I do think we owe it to people to be honest with them, and that first means we need to be honest with ourselves. I never said that was easy, but I do think we're obligated to do it. You're right that people often rationalize (on both sides), though. I posted about that earlier. I stayed with a man I knew I never wanted to marry who wanted to marry me because I thought, for a time, it was just that I was too young. When I figured out it wasn't---which was later than it should've been---I told him so. Maybe it is true and maybe it is not. No one is privileged enough no the inner thoughts of another. Many men and women are in relationships for their own interests and do not even realize it. Are you with this person because you are tired and settling? Are you with your dream person or is your judgment clouded by money and the trappings of wealth that said person may provide? Few people reflect on their actions enough to figure such things out. True. And the world could do with a little more reflection certainly.
thatone Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 it's not the nature of women to be honest. not that it's always intentional dishonesty, but projection/delusion is still dishonesty. given that, it's not going to be the nature of most men to be honest either. men are guilty of the same things. and the advice to "tell women you're not going to marry them so they can get the most bang for their buck out of their youthful beauty" is therefore a pipe dream. it's never going to happen. suggesting people do it is some of that 'delusional dishonesty' i'm talking about...
LnliHrt Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 it's not the nature of women to be honest. not that it's always intentional dishonesty, but projection/delusion is still dishonesty. given that, it's not going to be the nature of most men to be honest either. men are guilty of the same things. and the advice to "tell women you're not going to marry them so they can get the most bang for their buck out of their youthful beauty" is therefore a pipe dream. it's never going to happen. suggesting people do it is some of that 'delusional dishonesty' i'm talking about... Wiser words have never been spoken...
thatone Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 take the following thread for example... http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/316603-he-still-logs-match-com-everyday in conclusion the answer is no. men are not going to give women this amount of honesty, ever. women are going to have to make up their own minds, or lie to themselves as the woman in the above post is doing. in which case they have no one to blame but themselves. that's how the world is. pretending that it's different does nothing but justify this behavior of men that women so often complain about. and yeah i hear the rationale... "but women are emotional, we don't think that way, we do this we do that". that's all fine and good. the solution to this problem is stop being that way, be rational. women are responsible for themselves just like men are. that's 'equality'. or don't be rational, project and self delude, but in that case don't complain when it doesn't work out. and don't continue projecting by trying to tell all men that they should change to suit womens' opinions. because that's never going to happen.
zengirl Posted March 8, 2012 Posted March 8, 2012 (edited) it's not the nature of women to be honest. not that it's always intentional dishonesty, but projection/delusion is still dishonesty. given that, it's not going to be the nature of most men to be honest either. men are guilty of the same things. and the advice to "tell women you're not going to marry them so they can get the most bang for their buck out of their youthful beauty" is therefore a pipe dream. it's never going to happen. suggesting people do it is some of that 'delusional dishonesty' i'm talking about... Sounds like a way to rationalize your own desire to be dishonest to me. I strive to be as honest as possible in my day to day reactions and interactions -- granted, I think I am probably 'ahead' of the average honesty curve, yes -- as does the man I married. I know men and women that range in honesty, and I don't find this to be a gender issue. It's a "good person" issue. You can strive to be as honest (with yourself and others) as possible or not---even good people will fail sometimes, granted---or you cannot, but justifying it based on, "It's not in people's nature to be honest" is just a flimsy excuse for not striving to be a good person and partner. I am not naive. I realize that many people are not striving to be the best people they can be, and I realize that people lie (and lie to themselves) and do all sorts of terrible things. Doesn't make it okay, IMO. and yeah i hear the rationale... "but women are emotional, we don't think that way, we do this we do that". that's all fine and good. the solution to this problem is stop being that way, be rational. women are responsible for themselves just like men are. that's 'equality'. I think I'm being plenty rational. I don't know what you find "emotional" about my argument. I just don't decide to excuse misbehavior in myself or allow people to hide behind justifications just because other people also misbehave. I find your need to call women irrational very odd. Why be sexist about it? ETA: I firmly believe people are responsible for their own happiness, but I also think people are responsible for their own honesty and treatment of others. "Equality" has nothing to do with any of this (equality is a social and legal concept) and has not changed these dynamics one bit. People have been lying to further their own happiness, at the expense of others, since the beginning of time, and some people will always do it. And it will always, always be wrong, and a lie by omission is still a lie, and it will always, always be wrong. For anyone, regardless of race, gender, or creed. Edited March 8, 2012 by zengirl 4
thatone Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 i don't think it's sexist, it's just a rational observation. women are, by and large, less honest than men are they just aim a lot of that dishonesty at themselves. therefore they should not expect a higher level of honesty from men. they should expect equal or less, that's all anyone ever gets in terms of honesty, regardless of gender, equal or less. insisting that it's the fault of men that women stay with men who don't want to marry them is a purely female personality trait/flaw (projecting of blame). there's nothing sexist about that. it's just fact.
Author Leigh 87 Posted March 9, 2012 Author Posted March 9, 2012 The minset I am in at the moment, regarding the original Post... Me and my boyfriend are very happy being around each other. We do everything together, and love each others company more than anyone elses around us. We feel strong feelings, and we are making each other happy enough to continue. Does this mean we want to spend our loves together, or marry? Who. Knows. I do know, that we are DEFINATELY not together, because it is siomply better than being " alone". I think time will tell. SOME couples, they know RIGHT AWAY if they want to be together forever. With us, we have both expressed that " we would like things to keep growing and developing as they are. We seam to get better and better as we both grow with age." I guess we will either each a point where we strongly feel we want to be together for a LONG time, or not. Or, one of us will feel it, and the other won't. He has expressed that he wants to be together for a long time to come ( his words). We have planned our immediate future together ( year). *sigh* anything could happen, really. So far, we BOTh want things to keep going, and to keep growing better and better, the more we are around each other.
thatone Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 that's life, you're right, anything can happen. there is no magic bullet to make life predictable, it isn't.
Tybalt Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 I am truly sorry to hear about your one sided relationship:( I am a person who cares very deaply about those I love. I have not been through the pain, of fully loving a man, who does not love me back. How long were you together? At the time, were you blinded to the fact he did not love you? Looking back, was it OBVIOUS that he did not love you? It was quite long enough for him to have an idea if I was long term material, or not at all, especially at his age (early 40's). He did some talking out of both sides of his mouth, saying he was "unsure" about the future but "open" to all the things I wanted... But he never expressed wanting it himself, and I finally got it through my head that we were going to be treading water for a long, long time. His needs were being met and mine weren't. I wanted more. It wasn't about "marry me," it was far more basic than that. I wanted to connect and feel loved, and be able to feel safe with him, and over time it felt like I had that less and less, not more. It was like as I naturally wanted to grow closer, he felt more compelled to keep me at arm's length. I take full responsibility for going along with something that made me feel bad for a time. I expressed what I wanted and how I felt clearly, so I can feel assured there was no lack of communication of desires on my part. The cold, hard truth was that we just weren't on the same page. He didn't feel the emotional pull, the heart passion, that I did. He was willing to stay in an exclusive relationship with me, and call me his girlfriend, but he wasn't interested in the relationship evolving to any more emotionally intimate state. Let's face it, it is just plain sad, and an ego blow, when you give of yourself to someone and they don't value it or want you the same way. But, I decided to buck up and accept the truth and live with it. It was either that or live in "self-delusion" as it has been put here. By the way, zengirl, I really respect the journey you've taken and how hard you strive to be consistent and hold your integrity. I strive toward this myself. And many of your comments, threads and suggestions have been very helpful to me, not the least of which your discussions of "dating optimism" and "finding your half orange" etc. I still believe, even when it gets discouraging, that if I hold the course, the right person will eventually come into my life. And if not, at least I had hope for it all the while
Author Leigh 87 Posted March 9, 2012 Author Posted March 9, 2012 Tybalt - at least your self away enough, to know " alright, I am in this 100%, but our bond is not evolving, therefore I finally have to leave". To get what u want, u have to know what u want. U do:) Good luck finding it. Loveshack cannot always tell u the correct information, because unless the situation is blatantly obvious ( guy cheats on my constantly), we cannot KNOW how a person truly feels about the other.... HOwever, from love shack, I am self aware enough, to get out my my current relationship, as soon as it stops evolving. I believe love grows, changes, and manifests in different ways. If it " stops", either one .both people could not be open to self development, OR, the relationship was never what it should have been to begin with.
zengirl Posted March 9, 2012 Posted March 9, 2012 i don't think it's sexist, it's just a rational observation. women are, by and large, less honest than men are they just aim a lot of that dishonesty at themselves. therefore they should not expect a higher level of honesty from men. they should expect equal or less, that's all anyone ever gets in terms of honesty, regardless of gender, equal or less. insisting that it's the fault of men that women stay with men who don't want to marry them is a purely female personality trait/flaw (projecting of blame). there's nothing sexist about that. it's just fact. Men are just as capable of deluding themselves. In fact, if you don't think so, I believe you're deluding yourself in that fact. As I've said many times, men often stay with women who don't care for them as much (or want to marry them) as well, hoping things will change. It is NOT solely a woman's issue, though women are socialized to put higher value on marriage in many cases, yes, but my ethical point really isn't solely about marriage. I'm not saying it's okay to lead people on but NOT in regards to marriage. I'm saying, "Don't lead people on." End-stop. I do not think the world returns the same level of honesty I put out, so I do not think your "that's all anyone ever gets" equation works. I am not going to stoop to the level of other people because they are less interested in being honest. You can justify your bad behavior however you wish, I suppose, but it doesn't make it right. And to say women are less honest than men is a general statement that is sexist and has no basis in any kind of rational backing---you have no support for your assertion. By the way, zengirl, I really respect the journey you've taken and how hard you strive to be consistent and hold your integrity. I strive toward this myself. And many of your comments, threads and suggestions have been very helpful to me, not the least of which your discussions of "dating optimism" and "finding your half orange" etc. I still believe, even when it gets discouraging, that if I hold the course, the right person will eventually come into my life. And if not, at least I had hope for it all the while Oh, thanks. That's very sweet. I am sure the right person will come along for you someday too.
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