Boundary setting question

[Kidd]

Again, perhaps the highest priority is something other than proclaiming everyone's faults from the rooftops. Perhaps demonstrating tolerance, patience, and love despite one's faults is equally important. Perhaps filling in the whole family on their drama was a wise choice, one that she will appreciate, one that leads by example.

 

Meant to say that NOT filling in the whole family was probably wise. Too late to edit.

[Kidd]

Her parents know she was intending D...it was in a conversation with them that it came out...and I had to sit there and convince them. My W just sat silent, neither denying or confirming. Anyway. The truth is out there, the only people who are in the dark about the A are my Mom and my sister, and they might have figured things out just from clues. My coworker had from the same clues...by the time I told him about the A it was no surprise. Same goes for another friend of mine. My Mom and sister know W wanted D, just not about the A.

 

Actually, if I told any more people it would be one of her MA friends and sensei. I'll do that if the A starts up again...but the A is gonna be really hard to do with me going to class...

 

Sounds to me like the A is over and likely that the OMW is not permitting her H to attend. Just my gut.

[2sunny]

Again, perhaps the highest priority is something other than proclaiming everyone's faults from the rooftops. Perhaps demonstrating tolerance, patience, and love despite one's faults is equally important. Perhaps filling in the whole family on their drama was a wise choice, one that she will appreciate, one that leads by example.

 

This just doesn't make sense Kidd.

 

Tolerance, patience and love are great... But when one person sacrifices their whole sense of self because someone else's bad behavior - it's not balanced.

 

Love shouldn't look THAT much out of balance.

 

Preserving the family - I'm all for it! But not when the cheater isn't making extreme measures to fix what they broke. To repair all the damage she caused should be her top priority - but it's not. It's still all about her and what she wants and how she feels.

 

Nothing has changed - except this poster is rewarding her bad behavior by allowing her to continue on with the same actions and interests that got her cheating.

[drifter777]

kidd & sunny: your points have reached the philosophical phase in that you are discussing your personal moral boundaries and experiences you have each had. I'm not sure this is any help to OP as he does not have the experience nor wisdom you two have gained from dealing with this crap for so long. He can't hear you, even if he says he can. He's not in a place where he can appreciate or participate in your debate. I like and respect you both and mean no disrespect, I'm just reminding you that you are both far ahead of OP in this issue.

 

OP: it seems your mind is made up regarding the path you want to take right now. I hope it works for you, I really do. The problem most of us have is that we have seen it fail time after time and are urging you to avoid the mistakes we made. I'm not sure you are ready to believe us because you haven't experienced it for yourself yet. It's like something a Dr. once told me about smokers. He said "people don't quit smoking because it hasn't killed them yet". Most of us have to experience something ourselves before we can validate it. I think you (like Kidd) will have to experience the totality of this betrayal before you are ready to have a true give-and-take discussion. Right now you ignore most of the advice given to you or take time to explain how it doesn't apply to your situation. You continue to defend and rationalize pretty much everything which shows you are still in denial. There's not much we can do for you until you are ready to take the next step. For your sake, I hope you get there soon.

[Ninja'sHusband]

kidd & sunny: your points have reached the philosophical phase in that you are discussing your personal moral boundaries and experiences you have each had. I'm not sure this is any help to OP as he does not have the experience nor wisdom you two have gained from dealing with this crap for so long. He can't hear you, even if he says he can. He's not in a place where he can appreciate or participate in your debate. I like and respect you both and mean no disrespect, I'm just reminding you that you are both far ahead of OP in this issue.

 

OP: it seems your mind is made up regarding the path you want to take right now. I hope it works for you, I really do. The problem most of us have is that we have seen it fail time after time and are urging you to avoid the mistakes we made. I'm not sure you are ready to believe us because you haven't experienced it for yourself yet. It's like something a Dr. once told me about smokers. He said "people don't quit smoking because it hasn't killed them yet". Most of us have to experience something ourselves before we can validate it. I think you (like Kidd) will have to experience the totality of this betrayal before you are ready to have a true give-and-take discussion. Right now you ignore most of the advice given to you or take time to explain how it doesn't apply to your situation. You continue to defend and rationalize pretty much everything which shows you are still in denial. There's not much we can do for you until you are ready to take the next step. For your sake, I hope you get there soon.

 

 

So what is it you recommend me do? Joining the MA is actually something many people recommended earlier in the thread. You want me to separate, cut off support, D her ass? Yep I'm ignoring those options, they will hurt my daughter unnecessarily.

[Kidd]

This just doesn't make sense Kidd.

 

Tolerance, patience and love are great... But when one person sacrifices their whole sense of self because someone else's bad behavior - it's not balanced.

 

Love shouldn't look THAT much out of balance.

 

Preserving the family - I'm all for it! But not when the cheater isn't making extreme measures to fix what they broke. To repair all the damage she caused should be her top priority - but it's not. It's still all about her and what she wants and how she feels.

 

Nothing has changed - except this poster is rewarding her bad behavior by allowing her to continue on with the same actions and interests that got her cheating.

 

Of course it's out of balance; that's the nature of cheating. It is absolutely unfair; the cheater chose to keep what they had and have more while keeping their partner in the dark. The question is how to deal with it once it happens. I am not convinced that immediate demands for brutal honesty is the best path towards reconciliation (which is what this poster wants and he has made it clear he IS NOT leaving). It is simply unrealistic to expect immediate results with an "or else" mentality. It can take time for waywards to change their ways. One potential hope is to shock them back into reality; another one is to patiently influence the scenario. He has made a clear and informed decision. He doesn't appreciate being called a doormat or cuckold for making such a choice, yet you continue to tell him he's permitting all of this and allowing himself to be walked on. I'll be glad to tell you to go eat a shut the eff up sandwich on his behalf. He's not a doormat or a cuckold; his WIFE is making poor choices. He is choosing the best path that he knows to reconcile which requires sacrifice in the short term for the long term benefit (which doesn't happen to concur with your ideas). His choice, his life and he doesn't deserve to have to hear crap from you about it.

[2sunny]

Sheez Kidd - so much anger. Dang.for.you...

 

OP - may I ask - why didn't you have your W participate in that conversation with her parents?

 

She got value from staying silent. It works to her advantage.

[drifter777]

So what is it you recommend me do? Joining the MA is actually something many people recommended earlier in the thread. You want me to separate' date=' cut off support, D her ass? Yep I'm ignoring those options, they will hurt my daughter unnecessarily.[/quote']

 

Wow, I have no idea how you arrived at this conclusion after reading my post. I'm trying to tell you that you need to find a way to progress through the stages of grief. You seem to be stuck in the denial phase as you rationalize your wife's betrayal.

 

These are not my words but those of a respected marriage counselor:

 

Finding out your partner has been unfaithful to you is every married person's worst nightmare. It is considered by most as being the worst of all human experiences.

 

All this and you still seem to be in shock, still in denial, and really not taking care of yourself. I'm not suggesting you "separate, cut off support, D her ass", you are. The words you project on other people are the words you are telling yourself but don't want to face. You need counseling to help you get unstuck and work through the emotions you are suppressing. You need to take care of yourself before you can decide what your next step should be. I'm not criticizing you, I'm relating to where you are and what you are going through and advising you as I wish someone would have advised me.

[2sunny]

I'm not even sure I see any changed or new behavior from your W. maybe she's not sleeping with her OM at this time - but she still shows spoiled and entitled behavior.

 

When she starts thinking of YOU FIRST and participating in the M in a healthy way - then maybe a sense of it becoming more balanced might prevail.

 

Stop doing the work for her - that she needs to do.

 

She betrayed you and your marriage and your family.

 

She has work to do to find out what is broken inside her. No one can do that part for her.

 

IF you act as if things are ok - she's never going to think she needs to do anything other than what she's doing (or not doing) now. This is as good as it will get...

[Ninja'sHusband]

Wow, I have no idea how you arrived at this conclusion after reading my post. I'm trying to tell you that you need to find a way to progress through the stages of grief. You seem to be stuck in the denial phase as you rationalize your wife's betrayal.

 

These are not my words but those of a respected marriage counselor:

 

Finding out your partner has been unfaithful to you is every married person's worst nightmare. It is considered by most as being the worst of all human experiences.

 

All this and you still seem to be in shock, still in denial, and really not taking care of yourself. I'm not suggesting you "separate, cut off support, D her ass", you are. The words you project on other people are the words you are telling yourself but don't want to face. You need counseling to help you get unstuck and work through the emotions you are suppressing. You need to take care of yourself before you can decide what your next step should be. I'm not criticizing you, I'm relating to where you are and what you are going through and advising you as I wish someone would have advised me.

 

 

I had no conclusion, I was guessing, asking. My guesses were probably going off more of what 2Sunny has been saying..since she is the main one who's been riding my ass to D.

 

So just grieve then? Just a reminder, we are about 6 months our from D-Day now. I spent away from work grieving, crying my eyes out every day when she told me it was over. That doesn't count all the tears I' shed over the A before that. I understand if you missed that part, it's a long thread. I've worked through just about every emotion possible or I wouldn't have been able to pull my 180 off and bring my W back from D. Crying my eyes out sure didn't help...I needed to get through it just like you said...but yeah the 180 is what helped.

 

I guess everyone has their own slant or advice. I appreciate your concern over me getting through the various stages. I feel like I can pretty clearly outline my shock, denial, anger, and grief phases. They are all there in the past. I think I'm ready to move forward.

 

Shock would probably be when she drove to a conference with the OM back in June. Denial as well. Denial hung around in some fashion probably until trickle truth hit me full on at the end of January. At that point I was over the top with anger. I threatened to D if she didn't quit the A. I started a thread here. I took the advice I got and held on to my ultimatum, made a timeline, contacted the OMW, contacted the in laws. I was in full on anger mode. Then it all came crashing down when W was done. My efforts to control her had pushed her away. She took off the rings, moved to another bathroom, slept in the guest bedroom, opened a PO box, locked her computer and cell phone with pwords, etc. I went into full grief mode. Couldn't work or do anything for a week. I was miserable, grieving hard core over the family we had spent 13-14 years building. I eventually cracked and said she could do whatever, just not to break up the family. I started to back off and give her space for her MLC.

 

Then came acceptance, I found my strength again. I was ready for her to D, still didn't want it mind you...but would accept it. I didn't cry anymore, rage, or even discuss things, no hounding her about anything. Yeah from there just read my updates... Now that I was done with all my crap, my wife started to actually begin to face her own guilt and shame instead of being at odds with me.

 

Have I faced my emotions? Hell yes I have

[twosadthings]

Kidd,

 

Do you plan to post another thread either here or in the separation and divorce forum? I've been waiting since mid January to give some thoughts on your situation.

[drifter777]

I had no conclusion, I was guessing, asking. My guesses were probably going off more of what 2Sunny has been saying..since she is the main one who's been riding my ass to D.

 

So just grieve then? Just a reminder, we are about 6 months our from D-Day now. I spent away from work grieving, crying my eyes out every day when she told me it was over. That doesn't count all the tears I' shed over the A before that. I understand if you missed that part, it's a long thread. I've worked through just about every emotion possible or I wouldn't have been able to pull my 180 off and bring my W back from D. Crying my eyes out sure didn't help...I needed to get through it just like you said...but yeah the 180 is what helped.

 

I guess everyone has their own slant or advice. I appreciate your concern over me getting through the various stages. I feel like I can pretty clearly outline my shock, denial, anger, and grief phases. They are all there in the past. I think I'm ready to move forward.

 

Shock would probably be when she drove to a conference with the OM back in June. Denial as well. Denial hung around in some fashion probably until trickle truth hit me full on at the end of January. At that point I was over the top with anger. I threatened to D if she didn't quit the A. I started a thread here. I took the advice I got and held on to my ultimatum, made a timeline, contacted the OMW, contacted the in laws. I was in full on anger mode. Then it all came crashing down when W was done. My efforts to control her had pushed her away. She took off the rings, moved to another bathroom, slept in the guest bedroom, opened a PO box, locked her computer and cell phone with pwords, etc. I went into full grief mode. Couldn't work or do anything for a week. I was miserable, grieving hard core over the family we had spent 13-14 years building. I eventually cracked and said she could do whatever, just not to break up the family. I started to back off and give her space for her MLC.

 

Then came acceptance, I found my strength again. I was ready for her to D, still didn't want it mind you...but would accept it. I didn't cry anymore, rage, or even discuss things, no hounding her about anything. Yeah from there just read my updates... Now that I was done with all my crap, my wife started to actually begin to face her own guilt and shame instead of being at odds with me.

 

Have I faced my emotions? Hell yes I have

 

First off, 6 months out from d-day is not nearly enough time to even begin to heal. Second, I have been with this thread since the beginning and have followed your experiences with concerned interest.

 

We shouldn't argue about any of this because your experiences are going to be different than mine. Come back and re-read some of these posts if you need to. Start a new thread if and when things take a turn for the better or worse. There will always be someone here to give you feedback whether you validate it or not. Use this forum as part of your recovery.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Right now the thread is more of a blog ^^. It's nice to have everything documented...and maybe someone else will get something out of it. I really haven't had the intention of seeking advice here in quite a while.

 

The things I got out of this thread were:

1) Support for my idea that it was wrong of my W to continue class. It's ok for me to expect that she quit. I guess I needed to know that she would take it to the point of ultimate destruction....then I had the choice of either letting it go...or getting a D.

 

2) Encouragement to tell the OMW and others. This was really important. I'm very glad I did it.

 

3) Debate on whether or not to tell Sensei. The community was very divided on this, but it was good to see that. My final decision was more based on what Steve Harley told me in a coaching session.

 

4) Support during my grief phase after my W told me it was over...I was in a horrible state. It was good to come here and get some support. Thanks guys

 

Since then I've stopped posting as regularly, just because I'm doing what I feel like I should based on books, counseling, friend's and family's advice. I've been posting every week or so just to keep that blog going of what's working and not. Kinda like Kidd said. Share the info.

[The Blue Knight]

Nope. Her lies continue. Not telling her parents and pretending by sleeping in the bedroom are just supporting the lies.

 

No one here is being honest.... NH is just now supporting her lies better!

Amazon.com: Surviving an Affair (9780800717582): Willard F. Jr. Harley, Jennifer Harley Chalmers: Books

 

Sunny, many have followed Willard Harley's thinking on this and found success at rekindling their marriage post affair disaster. He and his wife have some very sound principles. My wife and I attended one of their "His Needs - Her Needs" seminars and they have very sound reasoning for making marriage work.

[Ninja'sHusband]

Hmm, I made a reply and it said a moderator would have to review it. Maybe because of the links? Anyway, yeah the Harleys, Michele Weiner-Davis, and Sue Johnson are authors who have provided invaluable insight and wisdom...definitely they have saved our M more than once.

 

Moderator response:

 

It's OK to refer to essentially competing web sites which dispense marital/relationship information for a potential profit but just don't link to them directly. People can easily find them using Google. Loveshack's software flags many but not all commercial links for profit. We'll make a decision on the extent of this policy in the near future. I tend to be more permissive but I don't run this site and must follow the directives I'm given.

Edited April 6, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Explanation.

[Kidd]

Kidd,

 

Do you plan to post another thread either here or in the separation and divorce forum? I've been waiting since mid January to give some thoughts on your situation.

 

I'm in divorce prep hell at the moment or I would probably start one. Haven't done one simply because I have little need for counsel or answers to questions. I have been dealt my cards and know (for the most part) how they will all be played. I screwed up big time in several ways. I will regret those mistakes for some time to come. But my regret otherwise has no impact. My WW has filed and is done with the M. I am likewise moving on and just doing what I can to keep 50% custody of the kids and divorce amicably since I have to have a relationship with my wife for the rest of our days. Florida is no fault and very pro 50/50 so it is what it is. I have grown to hate attorneys.

 

If you want to chat, PM me on the other site. I don't post there much at all anymore (I lurk a lot in wayward) but I would see your PM.

 

Sorry for the T/J, NH, but I know you don't mind.

[2sunny]

I think you are misreading me.

 

I said your W needs consequences, needs to get honest and transparent, SHE needs to start taking action to repair the damage she's caused and she needs to show remorse and start changing. Changing her entitled, spoiled self!

 

Remember good balance. Right now it's out of balance - leaning on HER holding so much power. The things is - she doesn't seem motivated to change. She's not uncomfortable enough to change. And she's got evidence you allow her to be in charge (after all, she's back in full force at her MA - even if you babysit her and check up on her being there, or not).

 

And she's still pursuing school instead of getting busy working and being distracted (enough not to think of her OM) and she could be adding income to the "family unit" but she's not!

 

And when SHE was asked by her parents - its completely BEST to let HER explain... Whatever is being asked about the situation and the state of the marriage... It may be very telling what she explains - or if she tells of what HER plan is to change or not. No matter how long it takes her to answer - this IS info you need!

 

I think you have every right to ask her exactly what her plan is - and she owes you that info... You're in the M too. She should be making things right with you - and I'd she's not, she doesn't intend to stay.

[The Blue Knight]

I'm in divorce prep hell at the moment or I would probably start one. Haven't done one simply because I have little need for counsel or answers to questions. I have been dealt my cards and know (for the most part) how they will all be played. I screwed up big time in several ways. I will regret those mistakes for some time to come. But my regret otherwise has no impact. My WW has filed and is done with the M. I am likewise moving on and just doing what I can to keep 50% custody of the kids and divorce amicably since I have to have a relationship with my wife for the rest of our days. Florida is no fault and very pro 50/50 so it is what it is. I have grown to hate attorneys.

 

If you want to chat, PM me on the other site. I don't post there much at all anymore (I lurk a lot in wayward) but I would see your PM.

 

Sorry for the T/J, NH, but I know you don't mind.

 

Join the club. Professional misery pimps is what they specialize in. Either they're defending some low-life hood rat who should be going to prison, chasing ambulances seeking easy litigation and deep pockets, or they're feasting on the sad remains of your marriage.

[turnera]

Here's the one thing I haven't seen you do, which is VITAL if you're gonna save the marriage: You have to insist - and she has to agree - that she will NEVER EVER have ANY kind of contact with OM again. Ever.

 

If that requires her quitting her dojo to save her marriage...well, that's called a consequence.

 

If she's not willing to pay that price, then you need to send her packing.

 

Your marriage will NOT survive without this.

[2sunny]

Here's the one thing I haven't seen you do, which is VITAL if you're gonna save the marriage: You have to insist - and she has to agree - that she will NEVER EVER have ANY kind of contact with OM again. Ever.

 

If that requires her quitting her dojo to save her marriage...well, that's called a consequence.

 

If she's not willing to pay that price, then you need to send her packing.

 

Your marriage will NOT survive without this.

 

And marriage counseling. You two need to learn how to communicate and be honest with yourselves and others. I'm moreso referring to the way your W avoids giving her truth... And you if you tend to speak for her or accept her silence as an answer.

 

What IS she really doing differently now - besides wearing her ring and having sex with you?

 

What has she sacrificed to save the marriage?

[Ninja'sHusband]

Here's the one thing I haven't seen you do, which is VITAL if you're gonna save the marriage: You have to insist - and she has to agree - that she will NEVER EVER have ANY kind of contact with OM again. Ever.

 

If that requires her quitting her dojo to save her marriage...well, that's called a consequence.

 

If she's not willing to pay that price, then you need to send her packing.

 

Your marriage will NOT survive without this.

 

You are absolutely right, we can't heal if there is still contact...

 

I tried She wouldn't quit the damn class when I made that ultimatum. She'd rather tear the family apart...

 

She's finally gotten the message that she should make no effort to contact the OM though and that she shouldn't do anything to hide it if he tries to contact her. All the texts have come to an abrupt halt since she realized I was tracking her and there was nothing she could do about it. There's no emails between them, no Facebook messages, etc. I watch for signs of another email account, so far there are none. She's also told me she will not contact him at all anymore, and I know he hasn't been contacting her. Probably this is the OMW's doing. I'm wondering if he will even show up for class... They may see each other in class if he shows up. That's still a mystery. But I'll be there as well...and I don't want them even looking at each other I attended a class with them both there as an experiment months ago. They were on opposite ends of the dojo, never spoke a word to each other or even glanced at each other. I expect that same thing when I'm there in the future...*IF* he even comes back.

 

I agree, for us to heal, there has to be absolute NC. I've made this clear to my W. But the message I got from books, counseling, and experience was that I can't force her to do anything. She has to fix this; the actions taken have to be her initiative. She couldn't handle being badgered about if OM was in class...so now she's letting me attend(she used to be against that idea). We're trying the options I guess, I'm letting her drive. Maybe me being in class will be ok, maybe not. We'll see where it leads.

 

I was thinking we'd start this experiment last week, but she didn't go to class on Fri. Other life stuff came up...so maybe this Friday I'll be having my first session. I'll see first hand if the OM is there.

[Kidd]

And marriage counseling. You two need to learn how to communicate and be honest with yourselves and others. I'm moreso referring to the way your W avoids giving her truth... And you if you tend to speak for her or accept her silence as an answer.

 

What IS she really doing differently now - besides wearing her ring and having sex with you?

 

What has she sacrificed to save the marriage?

 

My $.02...improvement is improvement.

[Ninja'sHusband]

My $.02...improvement is improvement.

 

Yup, my W's behavior is definitely not what I'd hoped for...but it's a helluva lot better than it was a month ago! The trend is finally in the right direction I can always find something wrong and get pissed about it, but that's no reason to toss the whole M and my daughter's well being down the drain. It's all about priorities..and I have my reality check question:

 

 

By staying together, are we harming our daughter?

If the answer is no, then it is worth it to try and make things work.

If the answer is yes, then it is time to end the M.

 

Simple. I'm staying, working to make save the M and our family

 

Is my W perfect? Making the right choices by me? Taking my feelings into consideration at every turn? No No No No NO!

 

But those things are not the be all end all. I'm not gonna tear everything down just when things are starting to improve. In fact right now I'd say things are a lot sunnier than when I started this thread...wasn't true a week ago...but with recent events I'm feeling a lot better. Anyway, I'll update again in a week or so. The big test will be me going to MA class...and how that pans out. That's what I'm most afraid of bursting our short lived stability we've achieved.

[whichwayisup]

They were on opposite ends of the dojo, never spoke a word to each other or even glanced at each other. I expect that same thing when I'm there in the future...*IF* he even comes back.

 

Don't you think everybody in that class, let alone the dojo, figures 'something' happened? Seeing as how close those two were, talking, laughing and hanging out then all of a sudden it all stops. No looks, no talking, no smiling, no joking around and on opposite sides of the room - That change is SO obvious that others will notice and question it. I'm sure if you told the dojo about their affair (something you should talk about with the OM's wife too, when you do finally get to talk to her) he wouldn't be shocked or surprised. True sensei's (sensai?) are totally in tune with feelings and energy of every single person in their group. So chances are, the man knows already..

[whichwayisup]

By staying together, are we harming our daughter?

If the answer is no, then it is worth it to try and make things work.

If the answer is yes, then it is time to end the M.

 

You both will be harming your daughter if there is no efforts being made in the marriage to save it and make it better.

Your wife IS harming her daughter by being selfish and still putting herself and her needs above you both. FAMILY COMES FIRST and until your wife truly suffers some major consquences, things aren't going to change that much. I do hope she is in NC mode and there isn't a secret phone you don't know about it..

 

Bottomline is, if the xOM continues to show up, your wife has to quit. She can't be selfish and put her needs first. In time she can find another group to join.