What Are Realistic Expectations In Dating?

[EnigmaticClarity]

You're missing my point about leagues. They don't exist because of the very thing you're describing: variance. People's ideas about worth and desires VARY. Thus leagues are not really possible.

 

"Leagues" are just somewhat like aesthetics in that regard--what everyone defines as beautiful in people, art, and the world varies, as does everyone's estimate of their own worth, i.e. what "league" they're in. Yet, as is true with aesthetics in art, film, culture, etc, somehow people are often able to come to shared agreements as to what is beautiful and what isn't. Can everyone do it? No. Do we always agree? No.

 

It's an inexact art, but comparative worth exists. We evaluate it all the time when interviewing people for jobs, or evaluating athletes in sports, and also in figuring out who we think we're suited to date. It's the ugly truth, although most people don't think consciously about what they're doing--they just do it, they date who they think they can get.

Edited January 23, 2012 by EnigmaticClarity

[somedude81]

That's very surprising--most of the introductory PU material is geared towards physical contact and escalation to make a woman see you as more than a friend and more like someone who they feel physical attraction to. Why were you unable to relate to that stuff? Your expressed problem of being too nice and not escalating sounds like you should have been able to relate.

I've never actually been in a situation where escalation was an option.

 

What I'm trying to do is go out with girls I meet in at work, in class, at social clubs, teams etc. Unless I completely missed it, PU material does not cover these areas. Nor does it cover what I actually should be doing on a date.

 

It's basically,

 

Approach a girl at a bar or club, say these lines to get her to your place, escalate.

 

That's irrelevant to me.

[EnigmaticClarity]

I've never actually been in a situation where escalation was an option.

 

What I'm trying to do is go out with girls I meet in at work, in class, at social clubs, teams etc. Unless I completely missed it, PU material does not cover these areas. Nor does it cover what I actually should be doing on a date.

 

It's basically,

 

Approach a girl at a bar or club, say these lines to get her to your place, escalate.

 

That's irrelevant to me.

 

Escalation is an option in every single situation you've ever been in or ever will be in with someone you like regardless of venue, and it doesn't begin at your place, it's something you do at any time you're in someone's presence. It doesn't have to be strangers you approach cold--it can easily be anybody you already know. That situation is easier in many ways than a cold approach because you don't have to start with cleverness--in the situations you described, you've already got an in and don't NEED introductory lines, you just need to turn it towards romance. Either they'll be into you and respond, or they won't.

 

It does sound like you definitely overlooked a lot in the PU content out there. The material that is useful to standard social situations like you describe are the pointers to build attraction. I mostly use humor and natural conversational skill that I learn and hone when talking to anybody about anything, but the PU material helped me focus it on new people better than I had done in the past.

[verhrzn]

Instead the people you've sought out to surround yourself with are telling you these things for some reason. Honesty is all well and good; I consider myself a very honest person, brutally honest at times. Your 'friends' aren't being honest if they're telling you that you're Quasimodo or hideously ugly or something. For one, I've seen pictures, and you're totally not. For another, it's not an appropriate thing to repeatedly say to someone. I mean, how does that even come up? "Btw, you're really ugly!" The only people who say crap like that are *******s with low self esteem who make fun of people they hope are even weaker so they can feel better about themselves.

 

Stop playing the role of prey in those situations. Get better friends. Get REAL friends who treat you with respect and care. Either that, or if some of this is actually happening in your head and you're misreading what these friends say (people do that), stop twisting your interactions with your friends into these experiences.

 

My friends have never strictly said I'm ugly. When I ask, they mostly roll their eyes, and say "You're fine" or "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder!" (Which I have long taken as the coward's way of saying someone is ugly, but the person speaking doesn't want to admit to being so shallow.)

 

My friends have just not necessarily disagreed when my exes said it. Their arguments were usually I brought it upon myself by asking, or so what, it's not a big deal if your bf thinks you're ugly so long as he's dating you and likes you.

 

Does that make them bad friends? Me, delusional and misreading? I've never been able to tell. I've always been the least-well-liked/most-ignored person in my groups of friends. I've never been able to make friends easily, and the friends I've had have always treated me like this. I don't know any different, and honestly, I just might be one of those people who isn't likeable. (I apparently give off a very good impression; I make 'acquaintances' very easily. Trying to transition them into friends is nearly impossible though.)

 

... Which circles back to the idea of realistic expectations. What if you're just not a popular person? Not someone who really understands social cues? What exactly should they expect out of their romantic life? Nothing at all? Should they instead give up on dating?

[FitChick]

I've always been the least-well-liked/most-ignored person in my groups of friends. I've never been able to make friends easily, and the friends I've had have always treated me like this. I don't know any different

 

It's familiar, which is why change terrifies you. Call Shelly Lefkoe ASAP. Read my signature line below while you're at it.

[somedude81]

Escalation is an option in every single situation you've ever been in or ever will be in with someone you like regardless of venue, and it doesn't begin at your place, it's something you do at any time you're in someone's presence. It doesn't have to be strangers you approach cold--it can easily be anybody you already know. That situation is easier in many ways than a cold approach because you don't have to start with cleverness--in the situations you described, you've already got an in and don't NEED introductory lines, you just need to turn it towards romance. Either they'll be into you and respond, or they won't.

And that's what I haven't figured out what to do. And none of the material I've read has given any guidance. I also don't know what kind of escalation you're talking about. From what I've read, escalation is basically getting her ready for sex and there is all these tips for getting over LMR etc.

 

It does sound like you definitely overlooked a lot in the PU content out there. The material that is useful to standard social situations like you describe are the pointers to build attraction. I mostly use humor and natural conversational skill that I learn and hone when talking to anybody about anything, but the PU material helped me focus it on new people better than I had done in the past

I really don't know. I've read way too much material and social situations were never covered. I've posted on PUA boards for years and haven't been able to get anything out of that either.

 

Somehow, I just haven't figured out how to use humor and natural conversation skills as something that is related to seduction. It's the classic

 

Step one: talk to her

Step two: ???

Step three: sex

 

Most guys naturally figure this out, the ones who don't become 30 year old virgins or worse.

[jobaba]

Somehow, I just haven't figured out how to use humor and natural conversation skills as something that is related to seduction. It's the classic

 

Step one: talk to her

Step two: ???

Step three: sex

 

Most guys naturally figure this out, the ones who don't become 30 year old virgins or worse.

 

Funny you mention this SD. I was just thinking about this today ... about how much my game is better as a mid 30s man than a man in his young to mid 20s. It is so much better. I'm rarely nervous around women. I have an easygoing style and have so many more interesting stories to tell than back then. I drink with moderation and don't get sloppy. And the way I dress and wear my hair ... exponentially better.

 

Yet, I get rejected more now than I did back then.

 

I remember after I had a long term relationship with a girlfriend I lived with and we broke up, I was like ... "Man, I'm going to have field day out there. I've got so much experience with women and confidence now." Following came the worst string of rejections I ever had in my life.

 

Sad to say, but there's no magic bullet. You know as much from reading endless posts here about women and how they view attraction.

 

But all of the humor and game and stuff will help you keep a woman into it once she's decided to give you a chance. But I think you've got enough going on to do that now. Catch my drift?

Edited January 24, 2012 by jobaba

[Els]

 

Oh I totally believe that. I know such men exist. Problem is... they're all taken. A guy who doesn't put so much emphasis on physical appearance and likes a girl for who she is (and is otherwise a good catch)? Those guys would get snatched up in a heart beat! I just don't believe there are any single men out there that don't require a high standard of looks.

 

Oh, I forgot to address this. You might be surprised, V. Women themselves tend to screw themselves over by overlooking these sort of men because they don't possess the superficial characteristics that some women prize.

 

My bf didn't have that many girls interested in him. At first glance, there's nothing about him that stands out - he isn't tall, isn't track-stoppingly handsome, isn't the life of the party, doesn't drive a flashy car, doesn't have suave moves, doesn't even talk much to people he doesn't know. To many girls, that would be enough to make them uninterested. I couldn't care less about such stuff. Their loss; my gain. They missed out on the most wonderful, caring, un-superficial, intelligent, gentlemanly, etc guy ever, just because he does not stand out on first impression. I know a few guys like this IRL. There were a few on this forum who were single for some time, though I think they have all gotten gfs and disappeared by now.

[somedude81]

Oh, I forgot to address this. You might be surprised, V. Women themselves tend to screw themselves over by overlooking these sort of men because they don't possess the superficial characteristics that some women prize.

SD81 was here.

[Els]

SD81 was here.

 

I'm sorry, SD, but you really don't seem to share a few of the characteristics that I was referring to in those men. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, just different.

[counterman]

Oh, I forgot to address this. You might be surprised, V. Women themselves tend to screw themselves over by overlooking these sort of men because they don't possess the superficial characteristics that some women prize.

 

My bf didn't have that many girls interested in him. At first glance, there's nothing about him that stands out - he isn't tall, isn't track-stoppingly handsome, isn't the life of the party, doesn't drive a flashy car, doesn't have suave moves, doesn't even talk much to people he doesn't know. To many girls, that would be enough to make them uninterested. I couldn't care less about such stuff. Their loss; my gain. They missed out on the most wonderful, caring, un-superficial, intelligent, gentlemanly, etc guy ever, just because he does not stand out on first impression. I know a few guys like this IRL. There were a few on this forum who were single for some time, though I think they have all gotten gfs and disappeared by now.

 

 

I've seen this happen too. Often the caring, intelligent nice guy is rejected for the guy who does make a good first impression, a better looking guy but not such a great person. I've seen girls try crawling back after they've been burnt many times but then it's too late, those gentlemen are snatched up by other girls who appreciate and feel lucky to have them. As someone said to me on this forum, you pick your poison.

[verhrzn]

Oh, I forgot to address this. You might be surprised, V. Women themselves tend to screw themselves over by overlooking these sort of men because they don't possess the superficial characteristics that some women prize.

 

My bf didn't have that many girls interested in him. At first glance, there's nothing about him that stands out - he isn't tall, isn't track-stoppingly handsome, isn't the life of the party, doesn't drive a flashy car, doesn't have suave moves, doesn't even talk much to people he doesn't know. To many girls, that would be enough to make them uninterested. I couldn't care less about such stuff. Their loss; my gain. They missed out on the most wonderful, caring, un-superficial, intelligent, gentlemanly, etc guy ever, just because he does not stand out on first impression. I know a few guys like this IRL. There were a few on this forum who were single for some time, though I think they have all gotten gfs and disappeared by now.

 

I'm very pleased to hear that you and your boyfriend have found a good match in each other. He and you both sound wonderful, and it does indeed sound like girls rejected him for silly superficial reasons.

 

At the risk of sounding argumentative, though... that's not really my problem. I couldn't care less about height, being handsome (I prefer nerdy cute), cars, money, or moves. In fact, the more of those characteristics a guy has, the more I avoid him cause it's pretty much guaranteed 1) he's a player/has a massive ego 2) none of those things resonate with me anyway and 3) he'd reject me anyway, since I'm not the type of girl that goes with those superficial markings of power.

 

The only things I've ever cared about is the guy holding a steady job, being intelligent and educated, having similar (read: nerdy or intellectual) interests as me, and liking me. Any guy who has shown even remote interest in me, I've dated-and I'm the one who has been rejected every time.

 

So, while I agree that the whole "no good men out there" is often a product of women focusing on jerks over the actual good men, I've never HAD any good men to choose over the jerks. If good men are out there, they're either taken, or not interested in me. So what exactly does that say?

[Els]

I've seen this happen too. Often the caring, intelligent nice guy is rejected for the guy who does make a good first impression, a better looking guy but not such a great person. I've seen girls try crawling back after they've been burnt many times but then it's too late, those gentlemen are snatched up by other girls who appreciate and feel lucky to have them. As someone said to me on this forum, you pick your poison.

 

Yep.

 

I'm very pleased to hear that you and your boyfriend have found a good match in each other. He and you both sound wonderful, and it does indeed sound like girls rejected him for silly superficial reasons.

 

Aww, thanks, V. I actually don't think that the bf was rejected much by girls, since he doesn't usually ask girls out til after they know each other very well. I think, from what I've garnered, his success rate was probably something like 50%. Two rejections, and two successes - an ex whom he was with for about 7 years, and me for the past 4. He certainly wasn't drooled over or showered with attention by women like some of the other guys though - guys I wouldn't touch with a 6-foot pole, to be honest.

 

At the risk of sounding argumentative, though... that's not really my problem. I couldn't care less about height, being handsome (I prefer nerdy cute), cars, money, or moves. In fact, the more of those characteristics a guy has, the more I avoid him cause it's pretty much guaranteed 1) he's a player/has a massive ego 2) none of those things resonate with me anyway and 3) he'd reject me anyway, since I'm not the type of girl that goes with those superficial markings of power.

 

The only things I've ever cared about is the guy holding a steady job, being intelligent and educated, having similar (read: nerdy or intellectual) interests as me, and liking me. Any guy who has shown even remote interest in me, I've dated-and I'm the one who has been rejected every time.

 

I'm not saying that this is your problem, V. I'm responding to your very definite and despondent statement that 'such men must certainly be taken'. I'm telling you.. not all of them are. Sure, you've not met them. Yes, they are rare. But you've lived in, what, one place all your life? Maybe you're just unlucky with this locale and community. Or maybe there is a guy like that there, but you and he have not met yet or gotten to know each other well enough to know that yet.

 

So, while I agree that the whole "no good men out there" is often a product of women focusing on jerks over the actual good men, I've never HAD any good men to choose over the jerks. If good men are out there, they're either taken, or not interested in me. So what exactly does that say?

 

I'm going to answer this bluntly, and I hope you won't take offense. I think the reason for your lack of success with -this- sort of men, other than poor luck and not meeting many different men, is your negative outlook and personality. Yes, some men have indeed rejected you for your looks even though your personality is better than that hot girl they're after. But I think you lack the personality to attract THIS sort of guy.

 

You come across to me as fairly bitter, cynical, argumentative and focusing on negatives. Now, that doesn't make you a bad person - we all have faults, and those are yours. But I would work on the bitter outlook if I were you. And attempt to get to know guys from different communities and cultures perhaps.

 

Undoubtedly, there is also a luck factor. Sometimes I don't know how I managed to end up with some of the guys I've been with, when there were myriads of girls prettier, with better 'feminine' skills, or nicer and more forgiving, or more hardworking and successful in their career, etc. I guess perhaps I stand out in a way. A gamer girl with good technical know-how is rare (and you have that too, V! ), and I suppose I have a fairly unique and pragmatic way of looking at things that attracts men who think similarly. Such men were rare though, and it is also luck in that I'd managed to meet them instead of not having known them. Find your niche!

Edited January 24, 2012 by Elswyth

[xxoo]

Any guy who has shown even remote interest in me, I've dated-and I'm the one who has been rejected every time.

 

Maybe they are looking for someone more into them, too?

 

Maybe, compared to other women, you don't make them feel chosen?

[xxoo]

You come across to me as fairly bitter, cynical, argumentative and focusing on negatives. Now, that doesn't make you a bad person - we all have faults, and those are yours. But I would work on the bitter outlook if I were you. And attempt to get to know guys from different communities and cultures perhaps.

 

The trick, I think, is to think you are pretty darn awesome as is, and exude that from the inside.

 

That is the "confidence" that is important. It isn't confidence that you can "get" this guy or that girl, but honest to goodness confidence that YOU are awesome, whether or not this guy or that girl is attracted to you.

 

You need to disconnect your self-image from men's opinion of you.

[zengirl]

OP, I don't know what's going on with you and your social interactions. I've never in my life heard anyone say, in casual conversation, "Beauty's in the eye of the beholder." It's not a modern day phrase.

 

I find it hard to believe people always tell you that you're ugly (not hard to believe it's happened from time to time---believe it or not, even really beautiful people are called ugly at some point, especially if they appear as weak and eager to believe it as you are; it's an ego/power trip thing people do), based on seeing your pictures. I think likely you are missing positive input and over-focusing on negative input, which only you can change.

 

As far as expectations go: if anything, yours are low. You don't have a sense of entitlement. You're fine. Your fixation on your own personal beauty is a bit disturbing if you are probing at people to see how they view you aesthetically all the time (especially since you're WAY more likely to hear the negatives and thus it's an exercise in frustration for ALL involved), but your expectations of a relationship are, if anything, low. Which is not to say they'll be met immediately.

 

Beautiful, smart, sexy catches are sometimes single. Sometimes for awhile. Even if they're not picky. That's just a fact of life, and a lot of it has to do with "dating capital" (#3 on my list) and skills, as I said. Part of those skills include seeing yourself in a positive light. I also think, from my worldview, you're manifesting negative experiences by expecting them and fixating on them over and over again, but I get that some people think that's a little too New Age-y. Either way, the fixation is NOT attractive. You are. Your thought-patterns aren't.

 

Nothing will change until you do, as FitChick's tag says.

[somedude81]

I'm sorry, SD, but you really don't seem to share a few of the characteristics that I was referring to in those men. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, just different.

You're joking right?

 

Or do you really think I'm not "caring, un-superficial, intelligent, gentlemanly?"

[Els]

SD, I don't really want to answer that, as it'd involve me quoting several things you've said as specific examples, and I really don't want you to think I'm picking on you. I do think you are fairly intelligent, yes. Would you consider yourself caring in how you treated girls you were interested in? I'm not sure, because I don't really know you. Gentlemanly in the traditional sense... I don't really think so, but some girls actually prefer that the guy not be traditional, so that may work in your favour. Un-superficial.. no, I don't think you are, but again that may not be a bad thing.

[somedude81]

SD, I don't really want to answer that, as it'd involve me quoting several things you've said as specific examples, and I really don't want you to think I'm picking on you. I do think you are fairly intelligent, yes. Would you consider yourself caring in how you treated girls you were interested in? I'm not sure, because I don't really know you.

Definitely yes. But you don't know me personally so you wouldn't know.

 

Gentlemanly in the traditional sense... I don't really think so, but some girls actually prefer that the guy not be traditional, so that may work in your favour.

And then you go ahead and say something like this

 

So do you know me or not?

 

Either way, where could you possibly get the idea that I'm not a gentleman?

 

 

Un-superficial.. no, I don't think you are, but again that may not be a bad thing.

Sorry Elswyth, just because a man is dating you does not mean that he isn't superficial. Ever stop to think that maybe you are his type and that if you weren't, he wouldn't date you?

 

So yeah, I may be superficial, and so is everybody else.

[verhrzn]

I'm not saying that this is your problem, V. I'm responding to your very definite and despondent statement that 'such men must certainly be taken'. I'm telling you.. not all of them are. Sure, you've not met them. Yes, they are rare. But you've lived in, what, one place all your life? Maybe you're just unlucky with this locale and community. Or maybe there is a guy like that there, but you and he have not met yet or gotten to know each other well enough to know that yet.

 

Oh I see what you mean, it was more a philosophical than a personal observation. I'm not sure if my locale has much to do with it... I've lived in a small backwater city, a college town, a foreign country, and a big city. Honestly, I've had the worst luck in the last two. I think living in Japan actually heightened my bitterness. Beauty standards are even more stringent there than here (due to the homogeneous nature of the culture, perhaps?) and I experienced this weird in-between... I wasn't foreign enough to be interesting (short, brunette, no crazy piercings or tattoos) and I wasn't "Japanese" enough to fit in (I spoke some Japanese, but I was nowhere near fluent, and I was far too.... emotional?, about the whole thing.)

 

You come across to me as fairly bitter, cynical, argumentative and focusing on negatives. Now, that doesn't make you a bad person - we all have faults, and those are yours. But I would work on the bitter outlook if I were you. And attempt to get to know guys from different communities and cultures perhaps.

 

Undoubtedly, there is also a luck factor. Sometimes I don't know how I managed to end up with some of the guys I've been with, when there were myriads of girls prettier, with better 'feminine' skills, or nicer and more forgiving, or more hardworking and successful in their career, etc. I guess perhaps I stand out in a way. A gamer girl with good technical know-how is rare (and you have that too, V! ), and I suppose I have a fairly unique and pragmatic way of looking at things that attracts men who think similarly. Such men were rare though, and it is also luck in that I'd managed to meet them instead of not having known them. Find your niche!

 

Perhaps Somedude is right.... that you need a good experience to get you going. Not to be argumentative but I've often wondered if you took someone with a 'positive' disposition and switched em into my body/life, they'd be as bitter and negative. 'There but for the grace of God go I," and all.

 

Perhaps luck is just a much stronger indicator than we all want to give it credit... There are also a lot of fun psychology studies about how if people have success at something, they contribute it to themselves (their personality, their 'can-do' attitude, etc.) And when people have a negative experience, they contribute it to outside factors, like someone else being a jerk, luck being against them, etc. I think in the opposite way... if something good occasionally happens, I slate it down to luck or some outside force, and if something bad happens, I turn it inward. I dunno, maybe it's the Lutheran Puritan in me, but focusing on the negative and making myself responsible for it has always seemed more..... honest, to me.

[xxoo]

So yeah, I may be superficial, and so is everybody else.

 

Some much more than others....

[Els]

Definitely yes. But you don't know me personally so you wouldn't know.

 

And then you go ahead and say something like this

 

So do you know me or not?

 

Either way, where could you possibly get the idea that I'm not a gentleman?

 

As I said, SD, all I have to base my judgments on is what you tell us. You've not told us of any caring or gentlemanly stuff that you have performed for the girls you liked. Most of it was how you asked her to hang out and attempts at showing romantic interests. Nothing about how you brought her soup when she was sick, or stayed up late into the night to help her with her project, or fixed her car for her, or anything of the sort.

 

Granted, you may have done all of those and I just don't know that you did. Also, granted, if you had mentioned that you did, you would have gotten flak from the PUA's on this forum about how you're 'being a doormat'. It's tough being in that situation, I agree. Also, for what it's worth, even with what little I know, I agree that you're better in all those aspects than the player sorts.

 

If you prefer, tell me you wish to stop and I'll stop talking about this altogether. I really don't intend to hurt you further, and I probably should not even have brought it up in the first place. Apologies.

 

Sorry Elswyth, just because a man is dating you does not mean that he isn't superficial. Ever stop to think that maybe you are his type and that if you weren't, he wouldn't date you?

 

So yeah, I may be superficial, and so is everybody else.

 

Ummm.. how do I put this nicely. You mentioned that you would try to persuade a girlfriend with small breasts to undergo breast enhancement surgery. You also mentioned that the only reason you don't try for '9s and 10s' is because you think they will reject you. To me, that is incredibly superficial.

 

When I met my guy, SD, I had a few pair of pants and a few tees that I alternated on a weekly basis. I had my hair up in a ponytail all the time, and wore no makeup. Conversely, there was one girl whom we both know wanted him, and she looked like a model. Sleek waist-length shiny hair that looked perfect, makeup, dresses, slimmer than me, the whole deal. He ignored her and continued to pursue me. Yes, that isn't a guarantee that he isn't superficial. Hey, maybe the tomboy look turns him on. Who knows. But I think it's a pretty damn good indicator.

 

Oh I see what you mean, it was more a philosophical than a personal observation. I'm not sure if my locale has much to do with it... I've lived in a small backwater city, a college town, a foreign country, and a big city. Honestly, I've had the worst luck in the last two. I think living in Japan actually heightened my bitterness. Beauty standards are even more stringent there than here (due to the homogeneous nature of the culture, perhaps?) and I experienced this weird in-between... I wasn't foreign enough to be interesting (short, brunette, no crazy piercings or tattoos) and I wasn't "Japanese" enough to fit in (I spoke some Japanese, but I was nowhere near fluent, and I was far too.... emotional?, about the whole thing.)

 

Oh, I see. Sorry for the mistake, then - I'd never seen you write about your travels. I agree about Japan - aside from Hollywood, it probably has the most stringest physical requirements for women in the world. Crappy place to be a woman in in general, IMHO.

 

Perhaps Somedude is right.... that you need a good experience to get you going. Not to be argumentative but I've often wondered if you took someone with a 'positive' disposition and switched em into my body/life, they'd be as bitter and negative. 'There but for the grace of God go I," and all.

 

Perhaps luck is just a much stronger indicator than we all want to give it credit... There are also a lot of fun psychology studies about how if people have success at something, they contribute it to themselves (their personality, their 'can-do' attitude, etc.) And when people have a negative experience, they contribute it to outside factors, like someone else being a jerk, luck being against them, etc. I think in the opposite way... if something good occasionally happens, I slate it down to luck or some outside force, and if something bad happens, I turn it inward. I dunno, maybe it's the Lutheran Puritan in me, but focusing on the negative and making myself responsible for it has always seemed more..... honest, to me.

 

This is a fair observation. I think a balance can be struck, though. And do know that if you allow the bitterness of the past to take over, you are only sabotaging your own future. Why allow the past that sort of power?

[verhrzn]

Ummm.. how do I put this nicely. You mentioned that you would try to persuade a girlfriend with small breasts to undergo breast enhancement surgery. You also mentioned that the only reason you don't try for '9s and 10s' is because you think they will reject you. To me, that is incredibly superficial.

 

.... Seriously, Somedude?? You actually said this, and then try to say that you have no standards, that what you want is a completely normal girl? That is absolutely awful. So those girls you tried to show me to demonstrate that you don't go for 'the hot girl'.... were really just you trying for what you can get, not what you're actually attracted to.

 

 

This is a fair observation. I think a balance can be struck, though. And do know that if you allow the bitterness of the past to take over, you are only sabotaging your own future. Why allow the past that sort of power?

 

I think because I'm trying to learn from the past, since I don't want to be doomed to repeat it. But I don't know exactly what I'm supposed to learn, so I continue to obsess and analyze it.

[Els]

.... Seriously, Somedude?? You actually said this, and then try to say that you have no standards, that what you want is a completely normal girl? That is absolutely awful. So those girls you tried to show me to demonstrate that you don't go for 'the hot girl'.... were really just you trying for what you can get, not what you're actually attracted to.

 

Uhm, okay, to be fair to SD, I think we should remove the 'only' part in my post. He did mention in a thread that he doesn't try for 'hot' girls because he thinks they'll reject him, but I guess that may not be the only reason.

 

I think because I'm trying to learn from the past, since I don't want to be doomed to repeat it. But I don't know exactly what I'm supposed to learn, so I continue to obsess and analyze it.

 

Analyzing is fine IMO (though I tend to overdo it too), but allowing it to shape you into a bitter and negative person really isn't.

[jobaba]

Oh I totally believe that. I know such men exist. Problem is... they're all taken. A guy who doesn't put so much emphasis on physical appearance and likes a girl for who she is (and is otherwise a good catch)? Those guys would get snatched up in a heart beat! I just don't believe there are any single men out there that don't require a high standard of looks.

 

I don't. So you can count me as one. Keep counting.