What Are Realistic Expectations In Dating?

[irc333]

Women date up because they can. If a woman is SLIGHTLY above average she will probably have been hit on at bars/clubs, put on a pedastal.

 

Yeah....all she has to be is not overweight, not even work out, if she's slender or a slightly average build, men will take interest. As long as she isn't as big as Jabba the Hutt, she'll have men asking her out.

 

I know a woman that weeded guys out based on how crappy they were at salsa dancing, apparently she competed in salsa, and she dated guys that could hold their own salsa dancing, however, she got annoyed with guys that weren't able to keep up with her performance-wise, so she would dump them.

 

I have a friend of mine that is into swing dancing, but wasn't much for salsa, she dated him.....but....since he wasn't into salsa, it didn't work out.

 

Unrealistic expectation? Yes.

[EnigmaticClarity]

Woman date above their league while men date below.

 

I don't get why someone would say this--I most often see men attempting to date above their attractiveness level more than women.

[EnigmaticClarity]

My question is, how do you determine if your expectations of dating and what you're trying to find in a partner are realistic? How do you determine your "league"? And if what you're asking from a partner is unrealistic, but you can't lower the bar any further then should you just take yourself out of the game?

 

I've already seen you post that you know your general "league" in other threads with regards to your income and other attributes that help form what you're expecting in a guy. Which elements of your self-worth do you find the most difficult to evaluate?

[EnigmaticClarity]

I don't tolerate disrespect from anybody.

 

Except yourself, and in that single case, you not only tolerate it, you coddle, foster, and perpetuate it. You're great with filtering out everyone else's bull****, but you appear powerless to protect yourself from your own.

[EnigmaticClarity]

I once read that the most successful relationships are when the woman is slightly better looking than the man, don't really know the science behind that one.

 

It's kinda obvious--because men care more about looks than women do. I link that directly to the greater male desire for sex.

[zengirl]

The idea of 'leagues' is inane.

 

For one, it's mainly based on looks, and for many people who have successful, happy LTRs and marriages: looks truly are not everything. There's truly no way to score someone all around the board---especially since different people look for different things.

 

The thing with dating is that it's a complex combination of several things:

 

1.) Looks. This is relatively static---you can change a few variables, within reason, but mostly, you look how you look. However, unless you look absolutely AWFUL or are aching for a supermodel to love you, you're still very able to find a healthy relationship. Maybe the top and bottom 10% of people, lookswise, have dating lives that are VERY influenced by their looks, but this is likely not the case for most of the poster's here. The OP, for instance, is a pretty girl -- maybe not top 10%, which is a ridiculous supermodel expectation, but certainly above average. A lot of the male posters who have perpetual trouble have either shared pictures or been told they look perfectly fine. Looks can be universal in some cases, but some things will be seen differently by each person, of course.

 

2.) Personality attributes: this includes everything from achievements/career, intelligence, interests, compatibility factors, charm, humor, etc. This is a mixed bag for everyone---and everyone will see different attributes differently. Most people look for someone in their same 'sphere', though some people go outside of it. Most people look for someone with some commonalities, though some people think opposites attract. Some personality traits are double-edged swords, whereas others are universally useful, but everyone has some pluses or minuses in an objective sense. I also think it's harder to say "Good" or "Bad" personality since people are looking for different types.

 

3.) Skill with dating: Yes, this is somewhat determined by your personality, but it's mostly determined by your dating experiences and other factors. How easily can you connect? Are you socially adept? Do you understand what you want and who you are? Are you positive about dating? Can you foster positive dating experiences? There's a lot that goes into it. And negative dating experiences can quickly pile on and become a 'block.'

 

4.) Luck or ability to attract (not people but experiences) or whatever that X factor in everything we do can be called. Some people have luck, and some people don't. It either cannot be explained, or some people (including myself) believe we can manifest our own experiences, to a degree, once we begin to understand the nature of our personal luck. But I won't get too deeply into that; I also cannot ignore luck as a factor.

 

I would say what most people need to work on, if they have continual trouble to the point of getting NOWHERE, is probably #3. And to make sure they're at least not working AGAINST their luck with #4. Unless someone has a major looks issue they need to work on (like they are excessively overweight or they don't shower regularly) or a major personality issue that generally keeps people away, it's probably just #3. #4 is always a factor, but a lot of people change their looks around by improving their overall experiences, which #3 can also do.

 

At any rate, it's not about being realistic and scaling back what you want --- unless you're an idiot and want really shallow, stupid things and need to re-prioritize, which is different thing. It's about refining your skills, which include even your THOUGHTS, about dating.

 

*Factors like location and choices you make also come into play. We cannot have it all; we have to prioritize sometimes. If you don't prioritize a relationship, you are less likely to get one. That's just true.

[EnigmaticClarity]

The idea of 'leagues' is inane.

 

For one, it's mainly based on looks

 

Not really, and your post--as well as several others--qualifies well the parts of someone's value, their worth, their station in life, their "league" that people judge beyond looks. Sometimes people make it just about looks, but it's everything.

 

For example, was Marilyn Monroe out of Arthur Miller's "league," or was he out of hers? Depends upon whether you're talking about her looks or his talent, insight, and intelligence.

Edited January 20, 2012 by EnigmaticClarity

[Emilia]

Thanks, once again, for invalidating my experiences and paraphrasing my words completely inaccurately. I hope you're not this condescending in real life. You are talking to someone who will out up with everything but the most major issues.*

 

I'm a drinker. I don't mind drinkers. I don't even mind heavy drinkers. I mind a 40 year old man who admits to getting drunk every night and who prefaces a date with "I'm not going to remember any of this tomorrow," and proceeds to get falling down drunk.

 

I don't mind if someone sees a therapist. I mind when talking to a guy is like pulling teeth, until he gets on the topic of his therapy sessions, which he describes in great detail. Not appropriate for a first date.

 

I didn't mind that the guy was a part time bartender. I minded that he was 35 and had quit a good job in hopes of his band getting famous. I minded that he had no intentions of ever doing anything other than scraping by. I minded that he told me he had nothing to offer someone like me, that I was way to good for him, so we should just hook up (so essentially, he rejected me).

 

There are times when you have to give up arguing with people trying to convince them of your view point and that you know what you are talking about. They simply don't care or are not smart enough.

 

I think your standards are too low actually. You really need to move to a bigger town to meet better quality men.

[grkBoy]

I only tell someone they have unrealistic expectations when they expect things that anyone with common sense knows won't happen. When they want and believe they are the "exception to the rule".

 

Examples:

• Fat, ugly, uneducated, poor man thinking he can land a gorgeous educated fashion model.
  
• Plain Jane who has plenty of decent men coming on to her, but she's pining away for some uber-hot guy who will never commit, or worse she's hoping a married/taken guy she has eyes on will dump his SO for her.
  
• Man or woman expecting women and men with loads of options to give them all up...just for him/her.
  
• Man expecting woman to be fit at all times, dress like a pornstar, give sex (even anal and facials) anytime he wants, and won't go a moment she's not in high heels and makeup. When he can't handle seeing her in "lazy/relaxed" mode...aka THE REAL HER.
  
• Woman expecting a barbarian to be a charming romantic prince...or the stone-cold unemotional guy to suddenly crack and be sensitive with her.
  

 

You get the point. I can't just make one blanket definition though, because everyone is different. I just simply think when you have some kind of person in mind, but you can't seem to attain that person...then you might be thinking unrealistic.

[zengirl]

Not really, and your post--as well as several others--qualifies well the parts of someone's value, their worth, their station in life, their "league" that people judge beyond looks. Sometimes people make it just about looks, but it's everything.

 

For example, was Marilyn Monroe out of Arthur Miller's "league," or was he out of hers? Depends upon whether you're talking about her looks or his talent, insight, and intelligence.

 

Thus proving my point on why leagues are inane and not real.

[KathyM]

This is a topic that always gets touched on when discussing "leagues" or sometimes in the form of accusations as to why someone is single.

 

My question is, how do you determine if your expectations of dating and what you're trying to find in a partner are realistic? How do you determine your "league"? And if what you're asking from a partner is unrealistic, but you can't lower the bar any further then should you just take yourself out of the game?

I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but just to answer this initial post, I think the way to determine if your expectations are realistic is to make an assessment of your strengths and weaknesses, and weigh them against what is most valued by the opposite sex. If you believe that good looks is highly valued by the opposite sex, and you don't feel that is a quality you've been blessed with, then it's probably not realistic to expect to be with a guy that has good looks high on his priority list, or who has that quality himself. I think adjusting your expectations is how to progress, and not just giving up alltogether. To have the rigidity in thinking that if I can't have my ideal, then I would rather be alone, is holding you back from getting a relationship that you could find very enjoyable or satisfying if you would allow yourself to be more flexible. When you say someone can't lower their bar, you actually mean that they just choose not to. Eventually, a lot of people do lower their bar somewhat when they mature enough to realize that they'd rather be more flexible than to be alone. If their current bar is not working in getting them a relationship, then they need to adjust that bar if they value having a relationship more than being alone with their bar that doesn't mean anything if they can't reach that bar. If you want to use a job analogy, should a person stay unemployed if they can't find their ideal job? Not a good plan, because the benefits of having a job outweigh the benefits of being unemployed and dreaming of getting that ideal job someday, which may never materialize. In the meantime, they are missing out on the income they would be receiving by taking the job that may not be their ideal job, but is still a good job, even if it isn't everything they were looking for.

[EnigmaticClarity]

Thus proving my point on why leagues are inane and not real.

 

No, it doesn't. Arthur Miller almost certainly wouldn't have gotten with Monroe if she wasn't who she was, and Monroe almost certainly felt the same way about Miller--if he wasn't a famous author, no way would she have married him. He was looking for a beauty, and she saw in him a father figure and someone to help her grow as a person and help make her a more "legitimate" actress. Proving your point would be if Marilyn Monroe married an unattractive guy with no fame and no real intelligence. His intelligence put him into her league, and her beauty put her into his.

 

Everyone posting here has a varying sense of their own worth and the worth of the people they date--even the ones saying they pay no attention to any of that. We just don't like to think these things about ourselves because they make us feel shallow.

[Dust]

There are times when you have to give up arguing with people trying to convince them of your view point and that you know what you are talking about. They simply don't care or are not smart enough.

 

I think your standards are too low actually. You really need to move to a bigger town to meet better quality men.

 

haha. Standards to low. She litteraly claims her entire part of the US is geographicaly devoid of any dateable men. She claims she didn't like one o her dates because a guy wore board shorts. Another date was bad because the guy was focusing on music instead of accounting/business or what ever it takes to impress her.

 

When a guy comes here and starts claiming "no women exist in my area" we shut him down. When a girl comes here and starts doing it "no good guys in my area women here have to date Jabba the Hut!" We indulge her. Why?

 

Thus proving my point on why leagues are inane and not real.

 

Leagues are as real as any excuse not to do something. Make no mistake leagues are pretty much exlusively used as an excuse.

[veggirl]

"Leagues" are definitely real.

 

I usually find men are the ones who date "up" in attractiveness. I don't often see a good looking man with a homely woman, but see the opposite for sure.

 

I agree with the statement like attracts like. My bf and I are in the same "league" -- similar level of attractiveness, success, etc. Dating outside of your "league" (if you can get that person) creates a power imbalance, I think. It just makes it easier if both people are on the same level, for obvious reasons.

 

I think you know your expectations are too high when you are expecting more than you can or will offer.

 

I agree with zengirl's point that there is definitely a factor of LUCK in dating. I can get a boyfriend, date, sex, etc, but I do feel like I kinda lucked into my particular boyfriend!

[EnigmaticClarity]

Leagues are as real as any excuse not to do something. Make no mistake leagues are pretty much exlusively used as an excuse.

 

I've seen exactly one women in my entire lifetime who hooked up with a man that was so far out of her "league" that I'm skeptical she's not into him mostly for publicity or money--Sean Stevenson and Mindie Kniss. Sean is a 3' motivational speaker confined to a wheelchair due to his brittle-bones disease, and Mindie is a normal-sized woman who is also a motivational speaker and relatively attractive.

 

I hear Sean is extremely charismatic and amazing to be around though, so I'd have to see him to be sure. His personality may be so over-the-top that it does indeed make them a well-matched couple.

 

http://lovebucketblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Mindie-Sean-The-Perfect-Two2.jpg

[Dust]

I've seen exactly one women in my entire lifetime who hooked up with a man that was so far out of her "league" that I'm skeptical she's not into him mostly for publicity or money--Sean Stevenson and Mindie Kniss. Sean is a 3' motivational speaker confined to a wheelchair due to his brittle-bones disease, and Mindie is a normal-sized woman who is also a motivational speaker and relatively attractive.

 

I hear Sean is extremely charismatic and amazing to be around though, so I'd have to see him to be sure. His personality may be so over-the-top that it does indeed make them a well-matched couple.

 

http://lovebucketblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Mindie-Sean-The-Perfect-Two2.jpg

 

I've seen an infinite number of people dating out side what my great expectations would be. It happens on both sides.

[EnigmaticClarity]

I've seen an infinite number of people dating out side what my great expectations would be. It happens on both sides.

 

Is that framed by looks though? I put my stepsister at 7 and her husband at 3 on the attractiveness scale, but I know why she's with him--he's extremely personable, funny, and has a lot of integrity. He's got plenty of desirable personality traits to make up for his appearance--if he didn't, I'm sure she'd drop him.

 

Comparative value isn't all about looks--that's only one aspect of it.

[iris219]

haha. Standards to low. She litteraly claims her entire part of the US is geographicaly devoid of any dateable men. She claims she didn't like one o her dates because a guy wore board shorts. Another date was bad because the guy was focusing on music instead of accounting/business or what ever it takes to impress her.

 

When a guy comes here and starts claiming "no women exist in my area" we shut him down. When a girl comes here and starts doing it "no good guys in my area women here have to date Jabba the Hut!" We indulge her. Why?

 

If you consider the men I described as good catches, I'd hate to imagine how you are in real life. The guy who showed up in board shorts with his dog, I found out later had a sort of girlfriend, and was dating others (and wasn't particularly bright. He bragged about having never read an entire book). The part time bartender (who is also a heavy drinker, occasional drug user) suggested we hook up. Neither of them we're interested in a relationship, so, really, they rejected me.

 

I looking for a man who would be a good father and a good husband and none of the men I've met last year came anywhere close to that.

 

I agree with Emilia--my standards have been way to low.

 

Why shouldn't a man try to make a good impression on the first date? It's disrespectful to do anything else.

[Oxy Moronovich]

They didn't reject me. They had major issues--alcoholism; crazy (one guy talked about his therapy sessions the entire date); not entirely single; loser/slacker (one guy showed up in board shorts with his dog); barely had a job (went out with a part time bartender); told me about the model hot chicks he banged on the first date.

 

The last guy I dated was actually very nice. We just didn't click, but we've remained friends.

 

LOL. In your previous post you said that you had very few deal breakers. All of a sudden you've got an entire list Some of them being really petty too (such as showing up in board shorts). And some of those supposedly "unattractive" men you went out with are banging model hot chicks. And then there is the "very nice" guy that you rejected for, well, being too nice. Am I supposed to feel sorry for you?

I agree that her post is contradictory when she says she has few dealbreakers then makes the above list. I also have the feeling she's exaggerating the behavior of these men to compensate for something.

 

It's also weird how she says her town has few single people, yet apparently she has gone out on dates with several guys with multiple gfs. Where did these guys find multiple gfs if few people in the town are single?

 

A huge red flag pops up whenever you read a post by a person who constantly, constantly blames their unsuccessful dating life on everything but themselves.

[somedude81]

I would say what most people need to work on, if they have continual trouble to the point of getting NOWHERE, is probably #3. And to make sure they're at least not working AGAINST their luck with #4. Unless someone has a major looks issue they need to work on (like they are excessively overweight or they don't shower regularly) or a major personality issue that generally keeps people away, it's probably just #3. #4 is always a factor, but a lot of people change their looks around by improving their overall experiences, which #3 can also do.

Great post. It definitely covers why I've been having problems. I simply have no dating experience or skill. I don't know what I'm doing and barely know what I should be. I'm finding it really difficult to overcome.

 

As for luck, I don't have any. It's basically at the point where I think the universe is working against me. I've just had too many close calls go absolutely wrong to believe that something bigger isn't at play.

 

I also think that luck affects your physical attributes and your personality. Because of my genes, I had just as much chance as being 6'1, blonde hair blue eyes as I had being 5'6 brown hair brown eyes. It's just bad luck that I wasn't.

 

Obviously the only thing I can work on is #3 and somehow get the ball rolling.

[Girlygirl1977]

If you consider the men I described as good catches, I'd hate to imagine how you are in real life. The guy who showed up in board shorts with his dog, I found out later had a sort of girlfriend, and was dating others (and wasn't particularly bright. He bragged about having never read an entire book). The part time bartender (who is also a heavy drinker, occasional drug user) suggested we hook up. Neither of them we're interested in a relationship, so, really, they rejected me.

 

I looking for a man who would be a good father and a good husband and none of the men I've met last year came anywhere close to that.

 

I agree with Emilia--my standards have been way to low.

 

Why shouldn't a man try to make a good impression on the first date? It's disrespectful to do anything else.

 

I haven't posted very much in a while but I've seen quite a few of your posts and threads. I imagine you have good reasons for your standards actually based on waht you have to offer. I'm seriously beginning to think that you should consider moving though. I just don't see how things will change markedly for you as far as the landscape in your town. You need to find a way if you really have a goal of meeting more relevant men - Just my honest opinion.

[Dust]

Is that framed by looks though? I put my stepsister at 7 and her husband at 3 on the attractiveness scale, but I know why she's with him--he's extremely personable, funny, and has a lot of integrity. He's got plenty of desirable personality traits to make up for his appearance--if he didn't, I'm sure she'd drop him.

 

Comparative value isn't all about looks--that's only one aspect of it.

 

Yes it's not all about looks, but in the end its about going after who you want. Then not questioning leagues and such. I mean I love beautiful women. I'm not then going to say to myself "I'm a beautiful man so I'm in their league... I make money so that some how adds to my self worth" What ever it be its just not a good way to think about things. Yes good looks, money, power get you women. But if you're some ugly bum and you get women then what... people will just say well he has a killer personality... whats his killer personality? That he goes after what he wants... confidence? Yeah so by going after what you want you add to yourself in the first place. Women love confidence... what is confidence. Well its gong through the motions... its in know way not being afraid, but doing whether you are or not!

 

If you consider the men I described as good catches, I'd hate to imagine how you are in real life. The guy who showed up in board shorts with his dog, I found out later had a sort of girlfriend, and was dating others (and wasn't particularly bright. He bragged about having never read an entire book). The part time bartender (who is also a heavy drinker, occasional drug user) suggested we hook up. Neither of them we're interested in a relationship, so, really, they rejected me.

 

I looking for a man who would be a good father and a good husband and none of the men I've met last year came anywhere close to that.

 

I agree with Emilia--my standards have been way to low.

 

Why shouldn't a man try to make a good impression on the first date? It's disrespectful to do anything else.

 

I don't now what I consider them. And look you're already attacking me saying I must not be a good catch! haha

 

I'm saying when some one says "I have no standards yet I can't find a man in all the land!" I question that. As I should!

 

I agree that her post is contradictory when she says she has few dealbreakers then makes the above list. I also have the feeling she's exaggerating the behavior of these men to compensate for something.

 

It's also weird how she says her town has few single people, yet apparently she has gone out on dates with several guys with multiple gfs. Where did these guys find multiple gfs if few people in the town are single?

 

A huge red flag pops up whenever you read a post by a person who constantly, constantly blames their unsuccessful dating life on everything but themselves.

 

None of it adds up. She acts like her town is the land of OZ surrounded on all 4 sides by unpassable desert ruled over by the Gnome King. I just get tired of people comming here and worrying about all the things that are out of their control when so much is.

 

Also out of all the people here Iris is one of the people that anoys me the most. What does that mean?

 

Great post. It definitely covers why I've been having problems. I simply have no dating experience or skill. I don't know what I'm doing and barely know what I should be. I'm finding it really difficult to overcome.

 

You know if you go out there and live life a little you'll get some experience. I know you believe experience is something gifted from the godess of women... but it's out there to be taken if you just go live a little. From that experience will come skill. Yes you'll make mistakes but thats the best way to learn.

 

You know enough to put you on the path to what you should be doing and you'll learn and figure things out along the way. Stop overthinking and doing nothing, and start doing. It's difficult to overcome if you believe it that way. If you just get out there and start enjoying life it will be a pleasure. You'll have no more problem even before you find a gf/wife.

 

As for luck' date=' I don't have any. It's basically at the point where I think the universe is working against me. I've just had too many close calls go absolutely wrong to believe that something bigger isn't at play.[/quote']

 

The universe is infinitly older then the suposed few years of bad luck which I blame you for. It could all change today. What you are hoping for is a lot more then luck. Luck was when the girl you liked so so much came back to your place alone multiple times. You screwing up was not making a single move because you were afraid of being slapped.

 

I also think that luck affects your physical attributes and your personality. Because of my genes' date=' I had just as much chance as being 6'1, blonde hair blue eyes as I had being 5'6 brown hair brown eyes. It's just bad luck that I wasn't.[/quote']

 

Yes poor you born into a perfectly healthy 5'6 body that hasn't let you down yet. Poor you smart enough to get a degree in exactly the field you want to go into. Yes poor you who looks perfectly normal and has posted his picture in hopes we'd tell you she's out of your league and we all told you that you two look good togather. hahaha

 

I've seen a guy born with out arms and legs who got gf/wifes. Yet poor you not born over 6 foot haha.

 

I'm over 6 foot and good looking. I've been turned down by more women in my life then you ever will be. But I've also had infinetly more sex and gf's because unlike you I don't look for things to cry about and hide away from the world.

 

 

Obviously the only thing I can work on is #3 and somehow get the ball rolling.

 

Yes somehow... What ever will you do?

[eerie_reverie]

One unrealistic expectation most women seem to have is that men should approach them. IMO you make your own opportunities.

[somedude81]

Here's one story about my luck.

 

A few years ago I was with a girl (not the one I always talk about) in my apartment. She was sitting on my bed telling me about her most recent girl on girl experience (she's Bi). Even someone as dense as me could tell that she was getting turned on talking to me about it.

 

Then her dad calls, he's outside her place ready to pick her up and she has to take off running.

 

The end.

[Oxy Moronovich]

None of it adds up. She acts like her town is the land of OZ surrounded on all 4 sides by unpassable desert ruled over by the Gnome King. I just get tired of people comming here and worrying about all the things that are out of their control when so much is.

 

Also out of all the people here Iris is one of the people that anoys me the most. What does that mean?

 

Dust, you seem to get along well with many female posters here. I can see why iris' posts tick you off.

 

Plus, I definitely think iris is BSing us here. On page 3 she made this quote:

 

They didn't reject me. They would have continued to date me.

 

Then on page 5 she makes this quote:

Neither of them we're interested in a relationship, so, really, they rejected me.

 

So on page 3 she says they were interested in dating but she rejected them. Then on page 5 she says they were only interested in hooking up and they rejected her. And still she wonders why people don't believe her posts?