Why Do Men Keep Falling for Women's Manipulative Shaming Tactics?

[OliveOyl]

I think that most men have fragile egos.

 

It has been my experience (as a woman), that many men do consider a woman arguing or disagreeing as shaming. And to go a step further, many take any kind of criticism as an attempt to shame them.

 

For most women, however, shaming is not their intent (but men don't see it this way).

 

I think this dynamic just highlights the different communication styles between the genders.

 

Because they have been conditioned to be sensitive to our emotions, and see that as being respectful...they expect us to do the same for them. And they see it as being disrespectful when we don't.

 

JMO.

 

I agree with a lot of this. Fairly frequently, with my ex, I would make an innocent comment which would get twisted the entirely wrong way as an attempt to demean him. It got to the point I felt like I was walking on eggshells and found it hard at times to initiate any conversation. I could tell he felt a lot of shame (and guilt, which is related) but he had so many triggers that I after a while I couldn't communicate without inadvertently pushing a button. I am not an overly critical person nor am I argumentative, so I don't think the shame response grew through me... I think it was a response from childhood (his Mom?), or perhaps just his personality.

[dasein]

Your use of the word "conveniently"...

 

"Ill intent?" Remember I'm the guy in the thread who thinks manipulation is natural to an extent, not necessarily malicious or "ill intent," whether in gender relations or arguing for a particular POV on an internet forum, but whatever. If indignance is all you got in response, it is what it is.

[Metis]

I agree with a lot of this. Fairly frequently, with my ex, I would make an innocent comment which would get twisted the entirely wrong way as an attempt to demean him. It got to the point I felt like I was walking on eggshells and found it hard at times to initiate any conversation. I could tell he felt a lot of shame (and guilt, which is related) but he had so many triggers that I after a while I couldn't communicate without inadvertently pushing a button. I am not an overly critical person nor am I argumentative, so I don't think the shame response grew through me... I think it was a response from childhood (his Mom?), or perhaps just his personality.

 

Growing up, I was repeatedly told by my parents that it is a woman's duty to be intelligent and competent enough to be able to take care of her husband in every aspect of life, and at the same time, never reveal that she knows something that he does not or can do something better than he can. "Men prefer women who appear brainless and agree with everything they say," I was taught. "If a man says or does something really stupid, don't laugh and don't point out the mistake, unless you want to find yourself abandoned."

[betterdeal]

Sorry....I missed this earlier. You're asking how people learn to manage anger.

 

Not really. I was asking how people can react differently to events that they previously got angry to. That's a wider remit than anger management. Anger being a secondary emotion, we have many choices to avoid it all together (change our perceptions, express our dissatisfaction clearly, remove ourselves from a situation &c), and even when all else fails and pain is intense (for that individual) we still have a choice as to how to respond. Finding better responses to current events is a lifelong learning process.

 

You mentioned being bullied by a boy who had been abused by his father. Bullying will tend to leave its mark of shame and anger...and the difficulty is that unlike criticism there's not necessarily a valuable lesson to be learned about yourself from it. Which makes it harder to reach a sense of resolution about it.

 

Do you think I'm angry? Anything on this thread make you think that, if so? With that lad, I learnt to kick him in the balls, hard, and that stopped the bullying.

[verhrzn]

Women also have a problem with criticism. It goes both ways. The thing is handling criticism depends on the person. Kind of like these guys on here that have problems with women. A woman offers a suggestion or says something then these guys get angry because the reason for their bitterness. I know working at a job where the male is the minority I stay silent when subjects like dating come up I stay silent because honestly women can't handle some real honesty. I get bothered when conversations become man bashing.

 

I'd be curious to hear what exactly you're staying quiet on. What honesty is it that women can't handle?

 

Also... just a small edit... Is it really fair to judge an entire sex of people based on your coworkers? Wouldn't it be better to amend that to "SOME women can't handle real honesty"? And wouldn't it be even better to say "some PEOPLE can't handle real honesty," as the reason they can't handle it could be entirely separate than their sex (could be their economic situation, their age, the environment they grew up, etc. etc.)

[Woggle]

It's not that men can't accept but we know when we are being condescended to. Also women should let him have his say without accusing him of whining which women so often do on here for anything a man says. We don't like taking criticism from somebody who has the empathy of a rock when it comes to how we feel.

 

I also think that men are sick and tired of women trying to change us and trying to mold into what they think they want when they have no clue whatsoever what the hell they want in the first place. Why do they get together with us knowing who we are then try to change everything about us?

[Woggle]

I'd be curious to hear what exactly you're staying quiet on. What honesty is it that women can't handle?

 

Also... just a small edit... Is it really fair to judge an entire sex of people based on your coworkers? Wouldn't it be better to amend that to "SOME women can't handle real honesty"? And wouldn't it be even better to say "some PEOPLE can't handle real honesty," as the reason they can't handle it could be entirely separate than their sex (could be their economic situation, their age, the environment they grew up, etc. etc.)

 

I can't speak from his experiences but I used to have an office across from two women who openly spoke about cheating on their husbands in graphic detail plus joked about cutting men's penises off and having sex with teenage boys. The one time I got sick of it and told a sexist joke back they went to human resources and demanded I was fired.

[Metis]

It's not that men can't accept but we know when we are being condescended to. Also women should let him have his say without accusing him of whining which women so often do on here for anything a man says. We don't like taking criticism from somebody who has the empathy of a rock when it comes to how we feel.

 

It is not reasonable for you to expect women to feel empathy for what you feel, just because you feel it. Some feelings deserve empathy and others do not. Feelings that are on the order that women are evil bitches and should just go and die do not deserve any empathy. Sorry.

 

Incidentally -- who DO you like taking criticism from?

 

I also think that men are sick and tired of women trying to change us and trying to mold into what they think they want when they have no clue whatsoever what the hell they want in the first place. Why do they get together with us knowing who we are then try to change everything about us?

 

Maybe if people like you stop promoting the idea that men who act like a-holes only do so because some women "ruined" them, fewer women will feel that they are in a position to change men back to their supposedly original selves. If fewer men act like man-children in marriage, expecting the wife to act as their mommy, I'm sure fewer women will treat their husbands like children.

 

Overall, however, I agree -- women should not attempt to change men. Too many women live under a sad delusion that if a man is a jackass, it's because some other woman made him a jackass, but underneath all that hard, callous exterior is a gentle man who just wants to be loved. (Where is a barfing smiley when you need one?) Instead, more women should realize the truth: if a man is an a-hole, he has always been an a-hole and always will be, no matter what you do. Toss them to the curb. Hard.

[Metis]

I can't speak from his experiences but I used to have an office across from two women who openly spoke about cheating on their husbands in graphic detail plus joked about cutting men's penises off and having sex with teenage boys. The one time I got sick of it and told a sexist joke back they went to human resources and demanded I was fired.

 

You left out the part where they bragged about drowning innocent puppies and making burgers out of babies. You also left out the part where they revealed that they are engaged in a world-wide conspiracy of women to steal everyone's left shoe.

[verhrzn]

I can't speak from his experiences but I used to have an office across from two women who openly spoke about cheating on their husbands in graphic detail plus joked about cutting men's penises off and having sex with teenage boys. The one time I got sick of it and told a sexist joke back they went to human resources and demanded I was fired.

 

And... why didn't YOU report them to HR??

[Woggle]

Can anybody show me an example of a man posting on this board that has recieved any empathy from the majority of women?

 

Men come here with all kinds of issues and all they are told is that they are whining it is all our fault. Exactly what situations will cause a woman to have some empathy.

 

Women trying to changed men implies that there is something inherently wrong with being masculine in the first place. The way men were drove us to do great things. Now we are just defeated lumps because we don't even know who we are anymore. We need to get back in touch with what drove us to build society in the first place. Not saying that women should not be equals right along side us but we should not tear ourselves down so they can build themselves up.

[Woggle]

And... why didn't YOU report them to HR??

 

I did and my boss outright told me sexual harassment laws were not intended to protect men.

[verhrzn]

I did and my boss outright told me sexual harassment laws were not intended to protect men.

 

Then you do some Google research (16% of the sexual harassment suits in 2009 were filed by men), keep a record of everything the women say, and sue their butts. It's called a "hostile work environment," and if what you're saying is true, you could win in a landslide.

[Woggle]

Then you do some Google research (16% of the sexual harassment suits in 2009 were filed by men), keep a record of everything the women say, and sue their butts. It's called a "hostile work environment," and if what you're saying is true, you could win in a landslide.

 

I no longer work there anymore so it is no big deal.

[Quiet Storm]

I also think that men are sick and tired of women trying to change us and trying to mold into what they think they want when they have no clue whatsoever what the hell they want in the first place. Why do they get together with us knowing who we are then try to change everything about us?

 

I agree that there are many women like this, but not all.

 

Often, when men discover things they don't like about a woman, they often conclude "she's not the one for me" and fall out of love with her.

 

When women discover things they don't like about a man, she often tries to change him. Instead of concluding "he's not the one for me", she wants him to change so they'll be more compatible.

 

This is where the emotional/logical differences come in. Men are usually more logical, thinking they can just find someone that accepts them and likes them as-is. Women are more emotional, often hanging on to an incompatible relationship because of "love", and then trying to change him into what she wants.

 

One thing that I also have noticed is that women, when they successfully get him to do or be what she wants... don't want him as much anymore. I believe this is because many women (me included) are attracted to men that stand up for themselves.

 

It's contradictory, because we want strong, masculine men but also want them to fit a certain ideal in our heads about what a man is supposed to be.

 

Confusing.

[Metis]

Can anybody show me an example of a man posting on this board that has recieved any empathy from the majority of women?

 

The thread where a guy posted a picture and asked to be rated -- just off the top of my head. Check out the divorce section of this site, and you'll see women constantly emphasizing with male posters. But, as I said, I can't emphasize with feelings that dehumanize and vilify me. Thus, I can't empathize with a misogynist for the same reason I can't emphasize with an anti-semite.

 

Men come here with all kinds of issues and all they are told is that they are whining it is all our fault. Exactly what situations will cause a woman to have some empathy.

 

A situation where you are looking for constructive solutions, rather than to complain endlessly about what bitches women are and how you deserve sex. Sorry, but a lot of posts here are from men who aren't interested in any suggestions and reflexively shoot down any advice offered in good faith. After a few responses, it becomes clear they don't want any advice, they just want to talk about how evil women are and for everyone to agree with them. I don't know, but it sounds like whining to me. I will grant you that some of us, myself included, could be a bit nicer and maybe not use the word "whining". But whining will still be whining, even if you don't call it that.

 

Women trying to changed men implies that there is something inherently wrong with being masculine in the first place.

Different people have different definitions of masculinity. However, an excessively restrictive, patriarchal definition of masculinity is behind many men's issues.

 

The way men were drove us to do great things.

Drove who to do great things? You? You personally? Because throughout history, the majority of men did not do great things. Great things are done by a very small minority of people. It's pathetic to try to take credit for other people's achievements just because you have a penis.

 

Now we are just defeated lumps because we don't even know who we are anymore.

Great men still do great things, as they've always done. The majority of men still don't do great things, just as in the past. Being a man doesn't make you a great man, and never will.

 

We need to get back in touch with what drove us to build society in the first place.

Once again, building society is done by a minority of people, so claiming affinity with them on the basis of having a penis is ridiculous. Moreover, societies that men supposedly built have not always been just or equitable; in fact, most of them have been downright brutal, repressive and utterly miserable. Not sure you want to take the credit for slavery, totalitarianism or religious fundamentalism.

 

Not saying that women should not be equals right along side us but we should not tear ourselves down so they can build themselves up.

In other words, you personally would have colonized Alpha Centauri and invented a cure for cancer by now if it weren't for the fact that you are tearing yourself down so women can build themselves up? Riiiight.

[joystickd]

I thought this thread would be about something like described in this article. http://www.examiner.com/men-s-dating-advice-in-los-angeles/men-be-wary-of-the-you-just-want-to-get-my-pants-guilt-trap

 

I do agree with the author in this one

[joystickd]

It's contradictory, because we want strong, masculine men but also want them to fit a certain ideal in our heads about what a man is supposed to be.

 

Confusing.

 

This essentially is the struggle on some level a lot of men have with women. The contradictions on some aspects of the qualities women want with men and some of the attitudes about certain things mainly sex.

[TheBigQuestion]

Look, that people react that way is perfectly understandable -- getting freebies and letting the other party do the heavy lifting is awesome, if society allows you to do it without imposing much opprobrium. The problem is -- it's simply human behavior. Men do it to women as well, and how. Whether most people realize this or not, women pay a very heavy price for having a few months of so-called "chivalry" and a couple of salads thrown our way, or at least expected to. In marriage or marriage-type relationships, women do the lion's share of the child care and most of the household chores. It is women who usually let their career take a back seat for the sake of their men's convenience, women who flush their hard-won accomplishments and years of hard work down the toilet in order to do more cleaning, cooking and unpaid, thankless secretarial work. That ends up costing a woman quite a bit, and far more than what it costs a man to court a woman into a long-term relationship. Much, much more. And that's just money I'm talking about, not mentioning the cost in self-esteem and the sad waste of one's intellectual gifts. And yet, the same men who complain about having to pay the woman's way on a date usually have no problem whatsoever with most sacrifices in a long-term relationship -- including financial sacrifices -- being made by the woman. In fact, they expect relationships to revolve around them and their needs, even if the woman paid for her own expenses during dating. Once we touch on the subject of marriage, these guys do an about-face and start prattling about women needing to be "feminine" (read: submissive) and "nurturing" (read: servile and never doing anything for themselves).

 

So here is how I see it: yes, I think the expenses of dating should be split roughly down the middle. This, with the caveat, though, that ordinary rules of hospitality apply: if I am having people over, I wouldn't think of charging them for the food and drink they consume, or for the wear-and-tear of the furniture they use, and the same guideline should apply to dating. If you don't like doing things for the other person, you shouldn't date her; if you don't like doing nice things for any member of the opposite sex, on principle, then you just shouldn't date. I just think women should do more in the way of taking men out (and men not thinking this is weird or "desperate") and show men a good time in ways besides sex, spending liberally to the extent that individual incomes allow. That's always been the approach I've taken to my own dating life (and many a man claimed to have been "insulted" by my desire to pay for dates and stuff). By the same token, I also want men to do roughly half the childcare and roughly half the household chores, and I'm talking about repetitive, dirty household chores that have to be done day-to-day -- without men bitching about it being some kind of a big favor to the nagging wife. I also want men to take -- again, graciously -- roughly half the rimming career-wise on account of having kids or promoting the interests of their partner. I see one as inseparable from the other. I just can't imagine our resident "hurt men" accepting equality across the board.

 

You lost me as soon as you mentioned women doing the majority of the housework or the child-rearing. There was a very popular article in Time magazine that came out not too long ago which cited numerous studies that found that there is no more gender disparity when it comes to that sort of thing. The burden of housework is pretty much 50/50 between men and women now. If you're talking about 30 or 40 years ago, you're correct.

 

Also, this whole idea that women are constantly putting their careers on the backburner for the sake of raising children is a bit outdated. In fact, one of the main messages of pop-feminism is that a real woman can do pretty much whatever they want and they can do it all. Women have been striving for this for years. You discount the fact that there are an ever-increasing amount of stay-at-home dads. Likewise, you discount the fact that there are many, many career women who gladly put their careers on hold for the sake of rearing children. You act as if this is some sort of terrible thing that the world (or men, in particular) is imposing on them. Not true.

 

Either way, that was a tad off topic. The point is, there was absolutely no reason for anyone to have reacted the way they did to my thread about who pays for dates. Or rather, the reasons they gave for reacting they way they did were completely disingenuous. I can respect your position a lot more than anyone who posted in that thread because you at the very least realize what I've always known to be true but which no LS lady wanted to admit: you don't want to lose your free meal and nothing more.

[Woggle]

I agree that there are many women like this, but not all.

 

Often, when men discover things they don't like about a woman, they often conclude "she's not the one for me" and fall out of love with her.

 

When women discover things they don't like about a man, she often tries to change him. Instead of concluding "he's not the one for me", she wants him to change so they'll be more compatible.

 

This is where the emotional/logical differences come in. Men are usually more logical, thinking they can just find someone that accepts them and likes them as-is. Women are more emotional, often hanging on to an incompatible relationship because of "love", and then trying to change him into what she wants.

 

One thing that I also have noticed is that women, when they successfully get him to do or be what she wants... don't want him as much anymore. I believe this is because many women (me included) are attracted to men that stand up for themselves.

 

It's contradictory, because we want strong, masculine men but also want them to fit a certain ideal in our heads about what a man is supposed to be.

 

Confusing.

 

Very true. Women do try and give men tests to see how much a doormat a man is. The more he resists her attempts at emasculation the more she respects him. The problem is that many men these days think if they just give whatever they demand it will be make things better but it won't.

[Woggle]

You lost me as soon as you mentioned women doing the majority of the housework or the child-rearing. There was a very popular article in Time magazine that came out not too long ago which cited numerous studies that found that there is no more gender disparity when it comes to that sort of thing. The burden of housework is pretty much 50/50 between men and women now. If you're talking about 30 or 40 years ago, you're correct.

 

 

I read that article as well and I also heard the crickets when I waited for a response from feminists. I imagine that in some cases a man do 100% of the domestic work and yet we will still somehow not be doing our fair share.

[AHardDaysNight]

Growing up, I was repeatedly told by my parents that it is a woman's duty to be intelligent and competent enough to be able to take care of her husband in every aspect of life, and at the same time, never reveal that she knows something that he does not or can do something better than he can. "Men prefer women who appear brainless and agree with everything they say," I was taught. "If a man says or does something really stupid, don't laugh and don't point out the mistake, unless you want to find yourself abandoned."

 

For the record, I like it when a girl points out the mistake in a sarcastic joke.

 

I won't reveal what I said, or what a girl friend said, but needless to say I made a really silly and stupid comment on Facebook recently, and a girl commented on it by turning it into an obscure movie reference. I LOL'ed.

 

It's guys with no sense of humor that would find this a turnoff. As long as it's said in a "no hard feelings, but I find this laughably stupid" way, that a guy can laugh at, and not a "you're a dumba*s" way, then I won't be offended. I also get turned on by sarcastic humor, and would find it a turn ON, not a turn OFF.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mme. Chaucer

 

 

Do you guys think that a woman arguing or disagreeing with you is equivalent to "shaming" you? Or, maybe you are ashamed of YOURSELVES if a lowly woman can win an argument with you? If a woman calls you out on some BS - is that "shaming" you? Have you ever done anything or said anything at all that you actually felt ashamed of? Are you fine with guys "shaming" women? If so, in general, or just about certain subjects, like sex?

 

4th Planet:

 

To answer the first question, yes. To answer the second question, for me, no. For other guys, perhaps. I'll explain why in a minute. To answer the third question, while I was a nice guy, yes. Since then, no. To answer the fourth question, yes. To answer the last question, certain topics, especially sex.

 

So basically, you're a "male supremacist"?

 

And Woggle agrees with you?

 

I'm … horrified.

 

I sometimes get a feeling that some guys are convicted rapists posting from their prison cells. I hope they're in prison cells, anyway.

 

Is that shaming? Oh, sorry. Bite me.

[Woggle]

I am not a male supremacist. Reared under the same circumstances with the same standards men and women not much different. The situation we see today is a product of society.

[ThsAmericanLife]

Hmm... the resident whiners complain about being called 'whiners'...

 

We ladies are supposed to be ok being called 'cum dumpsters' and the like. I don't see you so-called gentlemen stepping in to defend our 'honor'. Not like I need it. But still. You really don't have a whole lot to stand on with all your macho hoo ha.

 

It just occurred to me...

 

If some of you worked where I worked for the past 7 years with your attitude (never mind the past 20 yrs), you'd be laughed right out of the office.

 

How do you and some of your brethren possibly get through the day with your finger pointing and blaming? Is this how you handle your other transactions as well? I'm betting yes.

 

I'd never accept this from a romantic partner, an employee, or frankly... any of my 19-21 yr old students.