ThsAmericanLife Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 and from a man's perspective, i picture every one of those complaints coming from women who have put zero effort into attaining those things, but rather just sit around expecting them and then pout when they don't happen. I'm not sure what you mean by putting effort into 'attaining' those things or pouting. The article says straight out that it is mostly women who are the ones buying relationship books and trying to improve their marriages. Roles for men are changing. It isn't enough to just keep a job and come home most nights. I think that is what he is saying.
Woggle Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 I'm not sure what you mean by putting effort into 'attaining' those things or pouting. The article says straight out that it is mostly women who are the ones buying relationship books and trying to improve their marriages. Roles for men are changing. It isn't enough to just keep a job and come home most nights. I think that is what he is saying. Most relationships books and Cosmo articles are utter crap. Buying those things does not mean that you are putting effort into a relationship. How about actually enjoying being with each other and having a healthy relationship instead of subjecting a man to what he considers to be on the same level as torture. Men like women who are enjoyable to be around and when a woman is they tend to put in maximum effort.
torn_curtain Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 Most relationships books and Cosmo articles are utter crap. Buying those things does not mean that you are putting effort into a relationship. How about actually enjoying being with each other and having a healthy relationship instead of subjecting a man to what he considers to be on the same level as torture. Men like women who are enjoyable to be around and when a woman is they tend to put in maximum effort. A lot of men become lazy and start coasting once they have a woman and emotionally neglect her. I saw this with my parents. My mom is practically a saint and was constantly trying to engage my dad (nicely), but he would always withdraw and shut her out. She is extremely enjoyable to be with, and I never saw her pick fights or start drama. She ended up doing all the chores around the house, taking care of me and my brother and sometimes even financially supporting everyone while my dad was off in space. Hell knows I'd never marry a guy like that.
somedude81 Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 Heh, it all makes sense now. Several people have asked why verhrzn and I aren't dating. Here is what would have happened if we knew each other in real life. (Cue fady dream transition) We're in some class together. Because of her looks I notice her and start with the small talk. This continues for a couple of days and we learn that we have several interests in common. I see that there is some potential and want to start dating her. After a few class session goes by I invite her to do something with me, I don't use the word 'date.' We go out, have a good time, but I'm too nervous to try and go for a kiss, sorry. Talk a little in class next time we see each other. Several days later I set up another date. Once again we have a good time, but still too scared to try for a kiss. I'm getting closer to just going for it. I'm starting to like her. A couple of days later I send her a text for another date but she doesn't respond. Another text, no response. Call her and leave a voice-mail. No response. She's pulled her disappear card. The next day she makes a post on the forum on how guys don't like her because she's ugly. The End.
ThsAmericanLife Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 Most relationships books and Cosmo articles are utter crap. Buying those things does not mean that you are putting effort into a relationship. How about actually enjoying being with each other and having a healthy relationship instead of subjecting a man to what he considers to be on the same level as torture. Men like women who are enjoyable to be around and when a woman is they tend to put in maximum effort. I hear you. Life shouldn't be a chore everyday. The question did come up though... why women leave men. That article sought to answer that question.
ThsAmericanLife Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 Heh, it all makes sense now. Several people have asked why verhrzn and I aren't dating. Here is what would have happened if we knew each other in real life. (Cue fady dream transition) We're in some class together. Because of her looks I notice her and start with the small talk. This continues for a couple of days and we learn that we have several interests in common. I see that there is some potential and want to start dating her. After a few class session goes by I invite her to do something with me, I don't use the word 'date.' We go out, have a good time, but I'm too nervous to try and go for a kiss, sorry. Talk a little in class next time we see each other. Several days later I set up another date. Once again we have a good time, but still too scared to try for a kiss. I'm getting closer to just going for it. I'm starting to like her. A couple of days later I send her a text for another date but she doesn't respond. Another text, no response. Call her and leave a voice-mail. No response. She's pulled her disappear card. The next day she makes a post on the forum on how guys don't like her because she's ugly. The End. Quick question... how would you feel if she tried to kiss you first?
Woggle Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 Heh, it all makes sense now. Several people have asked why verhrzn and I aren't dating. Here is what would have happened if we knew each other in real life. (Cue fady dream transition) We're in some class together. Because of her looks I notice her and start with the small talk. This continues for a couple of days and we learn that we have several interests in common. I see that there is some potential and want to start dating her. After a few class session goes by I invite her to do something with me, I don't use the word 'date.' We go out, have a good time, but I'm too nervous to try and go for a kiss, sorry. Talk a little in class next time we see each other. Several days later I set up another date. Once again we have a good time, but still too scared to try for a kiss. I'm getting closer to just going for it. I'm starting to like her. A couple of days later I send her a text for another date but she doesn't respond. Another text, no response. Call her and leave a voice-mail. No response. She's pulled her disappear card. The next day she makes a post on the forum on how guys don't like her because she's ugly. The End. It's true. Most men don't want to be jerks but when we see what most women are attracted what do you want men to do? Do you want guys to make themselves into something that is completely unattractive to many women and subject ourselves to a life of loneliness and celibacy so we can go around knowing we are good men while the scum get lusted over? What do you want men to do when we are presented with this situation?
rafallus Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 It's true. Most men don't want to be jerks but when we see what most women are attracted what do you want men to do? Do you want guys to make themselves into something that is completely unattractive to many women and subject ourselves to a life of loneliness and celibacy so we can go around knowing we are good men while the scum get lusted over? What do you want men to do when we are presented with this situation? Going for a kiss automatically makes you a jerk? That's a new one to me. People learn all the time...
carhill Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 Wogs, a good question to ask is what did you do. You are a success story, in a healthy marriage, knowing what you want with someone who is your lover, partner, friend and confidant. Then, grow that as a healthy path which has come to you at high cost. It has value and is worth sharing. Do you want guys to make themselves into something that is completely unattractive to many women and subject ourselves to a life of loneliness and celibacy so we can go around knowing we are good men while the scum get lusted over? I've accepted this. Having disgraced myself and dishonored my family name once in the name of 'lusted over', that is enough. Life is worth far more than that.
Author verhrzn Posted September 19, 2011 Author Posted September 19, 2011 It's true. Most men don't want to be jerks but when we see what most women are attracted what do you want men to do? Do you want guys to make themselves into something that is completely unattractive to many women and subject ourselves to a life of loneliness and celibacy so we can go around knowing we are good men while the scum get lusted over? What do you want men to do when we are presented with this situation? How about a "Hey I find you cute and I'd like to take you on a date" if you're just such a good guy that you wouldn't dream of daring to put your arm around a girl without a signed consent form. When I said "make a move," I was mostly referring to physical, but a clear verbal communication of "Hey I'd like to date you" would work just as well. How exactly is that catering to jerks? Surprised and flattered. Yeah, IF you liked her/were already attracted to her. The whole point is that the guys never let me know that... by all their signals, they appear to only like me as a friend.
Woggle Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 Wogs, a good question to ask is what did you do. You are a success story, in a healthy marriage, knowing what you want with someone who is your lover, partner, friend and confidant. Then, grow that as a healthy path which has come to you at high cost. It has value and is worth sharing. I've accepted this. Having disgraced myself and dishonored my family name once in the name of 'lusted over', that is enough. Life is worth far more than that. I have no clue how I ended up with a great wife. I just happened to meet her one day and here we are. Men ask me how I found such a woman and I have no idea. I stumbled upon her.
somedude81 Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 Yeah, IF you liked her/were already attracted to her. I wouldn't have asked her out if I wasn't. I don't even bother talking to girls I'm not attracted to. What's the point?
Author verhrzn Posted September 19, 2011 Author Posted September 19, 2011 I wouldn't have asked her out if I wasn't. I don't even bother talking to girls I'm not attracted to. What's the point? ... Except this whole discussion is about whether or not it's a date, and if it's not clear it's a date, then she wouldn't know you had asked her out. Do you see the circle in flawed logic here?
somedude81 Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 (edited) OK, I'll say it differently. I wouldn't bother spending more than a couple of minutes talking to a woman I wasn't attracted to. I would never invite a woman to do something with me unless I was interested in her. And I'm only talking about one-on-one activities. Edited September 19, 2011 by somedude81
Author verhrzn Posted September 19, 2011 Author Posted September 19, 2011 OK, I'll say it differently. I wouldn't bother spending more than a couple of minutes talking to a woman I wasn't attracted to. I would never invite a woman to do something with me unless I was interested in her. But that's you. You can't say that's how most guys are. Or are you saying that men and women can absolutely never be friends... because, hey, friendship has to start somewhere. So, what, every single male-female friendship has started out with the guy wanting to sleep with her?
somedude81 Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 You're right, I can't say how most guys are. Of course men and women can be friends. But I see male x female friendships as something that just happened. All of my female friends were either made at school or work. And they were people I just interacted with when I was around them and friendships formed. But they stayed as work friends or school friends. The only reason I wanted to see a girl outside of work or school was because I wanted to sleep with her. Though what's odd is that in the cases where I took too long let my intentions be known we actually became real friends. But I never stopped wanting to sleep with her, and that's why most of those friendships fell apart. Even now, my only female friend is a girl who knows I have the hots for her. But she's OK with it as long as I don't push her too hard. I do need to point out that I am probably different from most men in how my friendships with females have been.
carhill Posted September 19, 2011 Posted September 19, 2011 I have no clue how I ended up with a great wife. I just happened to meet her one day and here we are. Men ask me how I found such a woman and I have no idea. I stumbled upon her. You may indeed have 'stumbled upon her'; however, you made specific choices and took specific actions which created the path which you are now walking. It didn't happen by accident. The simple act of making those choices and performing those actions was a function of 'what you want' and that has context within the realm of this discussion, IMO as the antithesis to the assertion in the title. Was it always that way? Likely not. More instructively, the essential 'wants' might have always been there and been healthy, and the journey was in describing the path to achieving them; understanding and implementing the methodology of success. Fortunately for you, this path occurred at a relatively young age. is verhrzn shadowplay? I don't believe so. I've seen what verhrzn represents as real life pictures and her image and posting style don't match up with shadow's or torn_curtain, which I believe is shadow's other ID. So, what, every single male-female friendship has started out with the guy wanting to sleep with her? Every? Likely not. The poster you responded to? Evidently. What I hear from him is a function of repeated rejection and innocent or not-so-innocent attempts on lady's parts to 'friend-zone' him. His response, perhaps a much healthier one that I had at his age, is to go for the 'sex' angle and hold true to that path. Perhaps, when he has worked out his own healthy path, either in a LTR or married, he'll see friendships with women as a beneficial part of life; now isn't that time, for him. I can say with certainty that no female friend, healthy or unhealthy, ever advanced my social/love life with women. Some were great friends, no doubt, but being their friend or having them as friends did absolutely nothing beneficial for my love life. That was entirely on me. Again, it boils down to knowing what one wants. Somedude81 wants to get laid. I respect that.
ThsAmericanLife Posted September 20, 2011 Posted September 20, 2011 I can say with certainty that no female friend, healthy or unhealthy, ever advanced my social/love life with women. Some were great friends, no doubt, but being their friend or having them as friends did absolutely nothing beneficial for my love life. That was entirely on me. Interesting. You don't feel that your friendships have made you a better person? And by being a better person your love life improved?? I don't see my love life and my non-love life as being separate. I see them as a continuum. Each affects the other.
Woggle Posted September 20, 2011 Posted September 20, 2011 Female friends are good but they don't improve dating life at all. Every man who has dated knows there is a huge difference between what women say and what women do.
ThsAmericanLife Posted September 20, 2011 Posted September 20, 2011 Female friends are good but they don't improve dating life at all. Every man who has dated knows there is a huge difference between what women say and what women do. You know what Woggle?? for a guy who has so much to say about 'man-haters', you sure do have alot of crap to say about women. I've helped my male friends out a ton. Two of them are still in their marriages partly due to me... I helped pick out my ex-BF's picture for his OkC profile and gave him a recommendation. He is now dating a very nice young lady.
Woggle Posted September 20, 2011 Posted September 20, 2011 You know what Woggle?? for a guy who has so much to say about 'man-haters', you sure do have alot of crap to say about women. I've helped my male friends out a ton. Two of them are still in their marriages partly due to me... I helped pick out my ex-BF's picture for his OkC profile and gave him a recommendation. He is now dating a very nice young lady. It's true though. Women will say that one thing is attractive to women but men get out their in the dating world and find out the complete opposite is true.
carhill Posted September 20, 2011 Posted September 20, 2011 Interesting. You don't feel that your friendships have made you a better person? And by being a better person your love life improved?? I don't see my love life and my non-love life as being separate. I see them as a continuum. Each affects the other. If anything, the easy rapport and close intimacy I had with platonic female friends hindered my love life, not because of them, but because of the information I took away from those relationships about women; who they were, what they liked, how they related. I became an expert at making female friends. This is very different than becoming an expert at romance. I don't regret those friendships, nor the ones I have today with my male friend's wives, but those dynamics in no way made me a better lover or husband. Totally different realm of interaction, IME. Perhaps this is one area where men and women are different, due to the prevailing socio-psychological gender assignments. As an example, my exW is great at relating to men. She likes a lot of male interests, can 'hang with the guys', shoot a gun, stuff like that, in addition to her feminine interests. Men, because of this, don't see her only as a platonic friend; they want to fµck her. Those aspects of who she is make her attractive to them. Similar aspects in a man make him unattractive to a woman, if my life experience has been any sort of indicator, irrespective of having great female friendships. Men and women evidently are simply wired differently in this regard. I had to come to accept that and conform, or else I would remain celibate for life. It's really as simple as that. Now, having done the time, I feel no need to conform and let the chips fall where they may.
aj22one Posted September 20, 2011 Posted September 20, 2011 Female friends are good but they don't improve dating life at all. Every man who has dated knows there is a huge difference between what women say and what women do. This. But it's not a case of women being deceitful, but rather a case of people in general being generally unable to describe what they find attractive in words. Actions are much more revealing.
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