"Men Don't Know What They Want"

[verhrzn]

I'm in my mid twenties (26), and I'm starting to be convinced the reason we keep running into guys who don't want a relationship, or isn't sure what he wants, or only wants friends-with-benefits is because they're so prevalent in our generation. Over the last year, I've gone out on dates only to be told that the guy wasn't sure what he wants, isn't "ready" for a relationship, only wants friends with benefits. Every single one.

 

I'm in an FWB situation right now. A few days ago I told him, calmly, that I 'd prefer he not mention other women he was (I assumed) sleeping with, as I'm not allowed jealousy in an FWB but I would like some boundaries. He responded that there was no one else he was interested in, that he focusing only on me... And that he'd been seriously considering how to bring up the topic of dating again, but was unsure how to broach it, or even how to begin. He has so little experience in relationships, and so many of them ending badly, he really isn't even sure how it should all go.

 

It got me thinking about whether this whole idea of discarding "uncertain" guys, guys who seem to want just rebounds or FWBs, while having some wisdom, is actually based on a misunderstanding of guys my age.

 

The cynical side of me says it's because men are pigs, and just want to use us without the commitment (FWBs) and for the ego rub (guys not over their exes.)

 

But my observations don't necessarily support this. Sure, some men are that way, just as some women really do just want to use a guy for his money, or just to have a ring on her finger and a kid in her lap, irregardless of the actual man she married. My observation, in real life, and reading forums like this, are that men are just as desperate for relationships as women... maybe even more so. Studies demonstrate married men fare far better in life than unmarried men... they're happier, they're healthier, they're wealthier. (Tellingly, married and unmarried women were virtually identical.)

 

So the majority of men want, need, relationships... but they don't know how to get them. They seem paralyzed by fear, by the inability to determine what it is they want precisely, and how to get it. Men are not taught to verbalize their feelings, they are not taught to examine their feelings. The last decade of changing gender roles has opened up more opportunities for women, which I LOVE, but it's also taken away some of the definitions of what it means to be a man, and there's been nothing to replace them.

 

There's a phenomenon in Japan, where young men (and it effects only young men) feel so confused and socially alien from the people around them, that they literally lock themselves in their rooms for years at a time. They paper over their windows, "to shut out the sun." The author tastefully suggests that some of this might have to do with young women's total rejection of men. Young women no longer want to get married... they don't want to lose their economic independence and confirm to rigid gender roles of wife and mother. The men react to this rejection by literally removing themselves from society.

 

Perhaps there is a lesson in that for young American men as well. We see FWBs and rebounds as manipulative tools for men to get sex (and again, for some, they are), but maybe it's a lot less cynical than that, maybe it's that an FWB is easy, and young men don't know how to go from point A (an easy FWB, something safe that is comfortable and familiar) to point B (a committed relationship.)

 

I'm not saying we should let guys off the hook. Women shouldn't sacrifice their want of a serious relationship because men are slow on the uptake. However, maybe it's time to approach these men with a little more understanding, give them a chance, not turn them away as soon as they utter that they're "not sure what they want."

 

I know why we do it... self-protection. Put our heart on a line with a guy who's not sure? It MUST mean he's not into me, it must mean he's a pig and a manipulator. It's a lot easier to brush off a guy who's unsure, but otherwise a genuine, kind-hearted, compatible guy, and move onto the next, then to open your heart and take that risk.

 

Maybe it's a perfect storm of mis-communication. He doesn't want to risk his heart, so he keeps it casual, tries to satisfy his relationship desire without really putting himself on the line. She doesn't want to risk her heart, brushes him off, and moves to the next. But where is this getting us? To forums full of angry young men, and lonely young women.

 

I won't tell anyone to risk your heart on a guy that would just use you for sex. It seems that anything less than a "yes I want a relationship with you" within a short time frame, without any sexual contact of any kind, will be enough to doom your future (and put out a "vibe," apparently) in the same philosophy vein of "He's Just Not That Into You."

 

My FWB is sweet, supportive, respectful and genuine. All my friends tell me to give him a chance. I'm choosing to take a risk, to open up my heart until I can't take it any more. Maybe it'll work, and maybe it'll fail. But I can't bring myself to brush off a guy I am so compatible with because he doesn't have the tools to go from point A to point B just yet.

 

What do you guys think? Has misunderstanding and an absence of relationship tools given us an overly cynical view of our fellow humans? (Especially of guys?)

[Jynxx]

Most people don't know what they want. If they're lucky they know if they like a relationship once they're in one, that goes for both men and women. Hell, most people can hardly take a decision when it comes to clothes or recreational activities.

 

The change in society has little to do with this. The problem has always been there, it just wasn't visible. Some decades ago a ton of guys got married between 25 and 30 while not feeling good in the relationship, but it's just what you were supposed to do. Exact same goes for girls. At least now they have the option to not do that, and as we know from game theory adding extra options has a non negative value for the party that gets them.

 

Also, try to cut down on the judgementalism. Of course you should let most people off the hook. The huge majority of men and women is just following their feelings or trying to find their way to what they think will make them happy, even if they hardly have an idea of what that would be. And you really can't blame them for doing that. It's even in your constitution. Can you blame a japanese girl for not wanting to lose her independence? Can you blame a japanese guy who's been rejected so much he's sick of it and gives up? You can't, all you can do is feel sorry for them.

 

Slightly off topic, but I'm pretty sure the correlation between a guys health and marriage doesn't mean marriage causes a healthier life. Guys with a great life tend to get married easier than people with a ****ty life, and people with a great life are in general healthier.

[omkara]

Men know exactly what they want, but what they want isn't real, so they settle for what they can get instead.

[linkinghabit]

Men know exactly what they want, but what they want isn't real, so they settle for what they can get instead.

 

I think you just got it right...

[Ginger Beer]

I think you just got it right...

 

Men know exactly what they want, but what they want isn't real, so they settle for what they can get instead.

 

What do they want then?

[Woggle]

You are leaving out the part that modern women play in this. Most men deep down do want a relationship but when they see what the relationship minded men go through with women these days it makes them very apprehensive. Just look at this board which is full of men who are committed to women that cheat on them with jerks, treat them like crap and get GIGS at the drop of a hat. Many men have decided that modern women are just too much drama to invest any real emotion into.

 

I really do feel bad for honest relationship minded women because they pay the price for the actions of these women just like good men pay the price for the actions of the players and cheaters.

 

I also agree that this whole independent woman thing has affected dating. Men have been told for the past couples decades that we are neither needed nor wanted by modern women so why does it surprise you when men take that to heart? If we weren't made to feel like disposable sperm donors much of the time we might make more of an effort in forming a relationship.

[East7]

I don't like generalizations but I would say men who tell you 'they don't know what they want' are just not that into you.

 

If you get disappointed it is probably because the men you meet/like are the same kind of guy (players, muti-daters, etc). Also maybe you give sex and ask for a relationship too early.

[Ginger Beer]

You are leaving out the part that modern women play in this. Most men deep down do want a relationship but when they see what the relationship minded men go through with women these days it makes them very apprehensive. Just look at this board which is full of men who are committed to women that cheat on them with jerks, treat them like crap and get GIGS at the drop of a hat. Many men have decided that modern women are just too much drama to invest any real emotion into.

 

I really do feel bad for honest relationship minded women because they pay the price for the actions of these women just like good men pay the price for the actions of the players and cheaters.

 

I also agree that this whole independent woman thing has affected dating. Men have been told for the past couples decades that we are neither needed nor wanted by modern women so why does it surprise you when men take that to heart? If we weren't made to feel like disposable sperm donors much of the time we might make more of an effort in forming a relationship.

 

I hope you lot are reading this.

 

Men who sleep around and treat women like **** do it because they're scared of getting hurt themselves, because they've seen men they know get hurt.

[ThsAmericanLife]

Nice, well-thought out post by the OP.

 

Problem is, she believes that her situation is 'unique' because of her age.

 

I'm one of the people who have advised her to ditch guys who only want FWB since she is looking for a commitment. First off, it keeps her out of the dating pool and not available when someone who IS looking for a relationship comes along.

 

I'm 46. It was NO DIFFERENT when I was 26. That was over 20 years ago. I made a choice then... the same choice I'm making now... that I refuse to be involved with men who aren't open and looking for a committed relationship. The only difference now vs then is that there were alot more available men back then.

 

Sure, it may turn out that they don't want to commit to ME. That's different than just getting into relationships out of habit... or staying in them because the sex is o-kay.

 

If I were trying to sell my house and looking for a qualified 'buyer', I wouldn't be renting it out to people who weren't 'sure' if they wanted to buy any house... much alone mine.

 

And the OP isn't old enough to observe these same guys have no problems committing once they reach a certain age, have achieved certain goals, or meet a woman who knocks their socks off. I have. Seen it a million times.

[phineas]

I don't like generalizations but I would say men who tell you 'they don't know what they want' are just not that into you.

 

If you get disappointed it is probably because the men you meet/like are the same kind of guy (players, muti-daters, etc). Also maybe you give sex and ask for a relationship too early.

 

Not men she meets, men she is interested in.

 

Women refuse to admit this, but their all chasing after a small percentage of the male population. The rich, popular, "HOT" guys.

 

These guys can date multiple women at once because they have an endless supply of options & just don't need a relationship.

 

Women who can't get these guys ignore the other guys around her and say "why can't I meet a decent guy"

 

Guess what? I know women from highschool 20yrs ago still single saying the same thing except their now looking at the guys they jerked around & played with & seeing how they built themselves up, married a beautiful woman, got beautiful children & a big house & are now regretting it.

 

They say things like "we used to hang out as friends then he fell off the face of the earth when he got a GF" No, what really happened is she friendzoned him because he wasn't one of the "hot" / jerk type of guys she always chased after & he stopped wasting his time & energy on her.

 

sorry, but that's how it is. I noticed every woman I dated were complete flakes & game players. I assumed all women my age are like this. Their not, just the majority of one's in the places I meet them.

I lowered my expectations when approached by a woman at a bar or concert & i've stopped being surprised or disappointed when she turns out to be low quality.

 

I don't think i've met a low quality woman at a private social function. when I say private I mean private party, ball, charity event ect that was not open to the public.

[EasyHeart]

Men know what they want.

 

They just don't want the same thing that you want. Or they don't want it with you.

[omkara]

What do they want then?

 

A clone of themselves, but with a vagina.

[EasyHeart]

A clone of themselves, but with a vagina.

ICK, NO!!!

 

Too hairy . . .

[Calutaxi484]

I think men pretty much know what they want (and so do women) but it's just unrealistic. For example Bob the mechanic expects that he's going to get a woman who looks like a model. Jane the secretary thinks she's gonna settle down with the hot rich CEO.

 

While I'm not saying to discount yourself (not at all) just don't have super unrealistic expectations. Bob meets Jenny, she's a decent looking lady and an OK job. Bob doesn't want to "settle" because he thinks he's going to go meet Megan Fox. While this IS a generalization I think many people are concerned with superficial things.

 

I saw someone post about guys that FWBs being afraid of rejection or low self esteem or whatever. I think in some cases that may be true, but not so much. I've had several FWB situtions in the past and it was generally more along the lines of: i found her physically appealing, but there was something about her that I didn't find quite up to the standard of girlfriend material. More or less FWBs ARE a relationship of sorts, just not in the traditional sense.

 

Simply I know what I want, she partially fit the bill, but not quite. This doesn't make me a player, quite the contrary I prefer a relationship to a FWB situation.

[carhill]

"Men Don't Know What They Want"

 

Perhaps, but I have noted that time, life and experience have honed the 'who I want to find it with' a bit.

 

After recently hearing once again those familiar words that I'm loved just like a big brother, I came to solidify one aspect of what I want and deserve, and that is to be loved, cherished and respected as a man. Conversely, on a more positive note, upon encountering the wife of a friend last night, one whom I haven't seen in a number of years, and experiencing her reaction of my sharing a brief overview of the events of the last year, I want a woman who can express that kind of care, concern and compassion.

 

Pretty simple stuff and not really much different than what I wanted when I was your age, OP, but perhaps I can more clearly articulate it now. Good luck

[somedude81]

Whatever happened to women saying, "No sex until a commitment?"

 

As the old saying goes, "Why buy the cow when the milk is free?"

[verhrzn]

Whatever happened to women saying, "No sex until a commitment?"

 

As the old saying goes, "Why buy the cow when the milk is free?"

 

For me myself, I don't say that because it feels manipulative. "You give me what I want, you get what you want." I don't want to use sex as some sort of prize or reward, I want to have sex because I want to.

 

I've tried holding back on the physical intimacy until I get the girlfriend title, but every single time it's backfired, and whatever chemistry me and the guy had vanishes... I end up inadvertently friend-zoning him. Why? One, because I feel like I'm manipulating him, two, because I'm denying my attraction to him (because if I let myself be too attracted to him, I'll be too tempted), and three, because I'm holding back precisely because I don't trust him and assume he's just going to hurt me. Why would I want to enter into a relationship with the guy when I've spent weeks/months convincing myself I'm not really THAT attracted to him, and that I need to "make the right moves" (aka not sleep with him too early) to get him.

 

Not men she meets, men she is interested in.

 

Women refuse to admit this, but their all chasing after a small percentage of the male population. The rich, popular, "HOT" guys.

 

These guys can date multiple women at once because they have an endless supply of options & just don't need a relationship.

 

Women who can't get these guys ignore the other guys around her and say "why can't I meet a decent guy"

 

They say things like "we used to hang out as friends then he fell off the face of the earth when he got a GF" No, what really happened is she friendzoned him because he wasn't one of the "hot" / jerk type of guys she always chased after & he stopped wasting his time & energy on her.

 

Maybe that's true for some women, but it's certainly not true for me. The type of guys I go for are not rich (I make more than them, some dates I pay for the dinner), "Hot" (the last guy I dated was short, pudgy, and so effeminate his friends joked he was visiting Narnia, but I adored him), or popular (I've gone for both extraverts and shut-ins.)

 

Interestingly, the guys who want an FWB are usually the ones who choose me, and the guys I choose aren't interested in me at all. There's the upside of my low self-esteem... any guy that shows even slight interest in me, I give a chance. I don't reject guys, not a single one. So your observation just doesn't fit.

 

Nice, well-thought out post by the OP.

 

Problem is, she believes that her situation is 'unique' because of her age.

 

I'm one of the people who have advised her to ditch guys who only want FWB since she is looking for a commitment. First off, it keeps her out of the dating pool and not available when someone who IS looking for a relationship comes along.

 

I'm 46. It was NO DIFFERENT when I was 26. That was over 20 years ago. I made a choice then... the same choice I'm making now... that I refuse to be involved with men who aren't open and looking for a committed relationship. The only difference now vs then is that there were alot more available men back then.

 

And the OP isn't old enough to observe these same guys have no problems committing once they reach a certain age, have achieved certain goals, or meet a woman who knocks their socks off. I have. Seen it a million times.

 

Eh, I'm not sure my situation is unique, I'm just trying to find a different, perhaps most optimistic take on it, especially as I have yet to meet a single guy who wants a relationship.

 

I'm really not sure how this keeps me out of the dating pool and not available. If anything, having a FWB gives me more confidence.. when I'm absolutely alone, I hardly want to try, because I already feel rather fragile about rejection. ("If he says no, I have to face another weekend alone again.") Having an FWB means I can treat rejection a little more lightly ("If he says no, no big deal, I can still have some fun.") I've been absolutely alone, and I've been with an FWB, and the numbers of available guys really doesn't change.

 

Immediately dismissing any guy who doesn't immediately want a relationship with me is one means to an end, but in the past, it was not a productive strategy for me, because NO body wanted a relationship with me right off the bat (and if we DIDN'T enter into an FWB, it very quickly fizzled out.) Every boyfriend I've had, there's been this in-between stage with.... Maybe I'm just the kind of girl who has to really charm a guy. I have yet to meet a guy who even after a month of just casual (no sex) dating said "I really want to date you"... It's becoming my pattern that after a month or two of FWB, a guy will say "I never realized how awesome you are, yeah, let's date."

[laotzu]

If a guy is having sex with you but "isn't sure" if he wants to be in a relationship with you, it's because - rightly or wrongly - he thinks he'll be able to find a girl that he does want to be in a relationship with. A FWB situation is a bridge to a real relationship with a different girl, and he wants to maintain the moniker of "single" - while having sex - so when a girl he does want to be with comes along, he can date her and end his FWB situation without being labeled a cheater.

 

He may be sweet and caring and understanding, but that probably just means he's a decent person. Some of us (such as myself) can't have sex with someone and be distant/unavailable to them, but that doesn't mean that we want to marry that person - or even be in a two year relationship with them.

 

The situation in Japan is pretty complex, and can't really be attributable to women with economic success. (Japan is still one of the most gender unequal modern societies - women have nothing close to the economic independence of men, or North American women.)

[verhrzn]

Well then, guess my entire theory is off, he's just a user who's lying to me, and I'll be alone for the rest of my life, since NO guy has EVER wanted a relationship with me WITHOUT starting as an FWB first. Good to know.

[somedude81]

For me myself, I don't say that because it feels manipulative. "You give me what I want, you get what you want." I don't want to use sex as some sort of prize or reward

But isn't that supposed to be the way it is?

 

Women are the gatekeepers. If a certain key doesn't have what she wants, she tells him to move on.

 

I think that modern women are making it too easy for some men.

 

 

I want to have sex because I want to.

I'm so temped to really address that comment but it will turn this thread into a gender battle which I know you don't want.

 

I've tried holding back on the physical intimacy until I get the girlfriend title, but every single time it's backfired, and whatever chemistry me and the guy had vanishes... I end up inadvertently friend-zoning him. Why? One, because I feel like I'm manipulating him, two, because I'm denying my attraction to him (because if I let myself be too attracted to him, I'll be too tempted), and three, because I'm holding back precisely because I don't trust him and assume he's just going to hurt me.

But isn't he more likely to hurt you without a relationship?

 

Why would making a guy wait for sex make you friendzone him? I know you gave reasons, but they're not that clear to me.

 

Why would I want to enter into a relationship with the guy when I've spent weeks/months convincing myself I'm not really THAT attracted to him, and that I need to "make the right moves" (aka not sleep with him too early) to get him.

Why would you have to convince yourself that you're not attracted to him?

 

I don't reject guys, not a single one.

I wish I could meet somebody like you.

 

How long does it take you decide that it's not going to work out with a guy. Barring no glaring red flags are present.

 

I'm really not sure how this keeps me out of the dating pool and not available.

No, it very much does.

 

If a man who wants a relationship with you asks, "So are you seeing anybody?"

 

"Oh, I have this guy friend but we're not too serious."

 

Most guys will say, no thanks and move on. Some guys don't care if the girl they want to date is already sleeping with somebody else but I'm pretty sure the majority do.

 

I know I don't want to get involved with a girl if there is another man in the picture. Too many ways for things to get complicated.

[laotzu]

Well then, guess my entire theory is off, he's just a user who's lying to me, and I'll be alone for the rest of my life, since NO guy has EVER wanted a relationship with me WITHOUT starting as an FWB first. Good to know.

 

You should try this: tell him you don't want to have sex without at least some commitment, even if it's sexual commitment (i.e. monogamy).

 

All I'm saying is, as a guy, when there's a girl I want to be in a relationship with I'm more than willing to telegraph to her that I'm willing to not see someone else and will stop looking. When I'm not sure if I want to be in a relationship with a girl, I'll try to keep things vague, while I figure out what I want and see what my options are. I'm more likely to commit to a girl if she's only willing to have sex with commitment, because I want to have sex and (like the guy in your story) I'm probably not having sex with multiple people at once.

 

I don't know. It seems like you want to be in a relationship with him, so telegraph that and also make sure he knows you have something that he wants. It seems like a situation that could work out well for you. Just don't let him cake-eat... we love to do that.

[AHardDaysNight]

I am a man who is looking for a relationship, not just sex. Yeah sure, I'd like to lose my virginity, but it's not number one on my list.

 

I'd be happy with just being appreciated in a sexless relationship.

 

The problem with this attitude is that there are so many single and never been in a relationship guys, who are looking for relationships first and foremost, and they're always rejected. I see it all the time on forums I visit. It is nothing extraordinary.

 

Another problem is that the men that the OP is talking about are outgoing, assertive, and good looking guys...basically, guys that could have any woman. Since they can have any woman, they won't choose the OP, because they don't have to commit.

 

Nerdy, socially awkward, and otherwise dating flawed individuals, on the other hand, don't have that many options. So they would be very happy to commit. However...all the girls are chasing the guys that don't want to commit.

 

That is the key flaw in this reasoning in the OP's argument.

[laotzu]

No, it very much does.

 

If a man who wants a relationship with you asks, "So are you seeing anybody?"

 

"Oh, I have this guy friend but we're not too serious."

 

Most guys will say, no thanks and move on. Some guys don't care if the girl they want to date is already sleeping with somebody else but I'm pretty sure the majority do.

 

I know I don't want to get involved with a girl if there is another man in the picture. Too many ways for things to get complicated.

 

100% this. It's biological: I know someone else is already setting off your dopamine receptors and all that ****. I don't even want to sleep with a girl who's sleeping with other people, because of health reasons. Let alone date one who's in a FWB situation, because the drama probably isn't worth it, and I don't want to deal with that situation when the former FWB suddenly realizes he's going to lose his free-sex, and so tries to suddenly make his situation into a relationship (i.e. "yes, I do want a relationship - I didn't know it until I was going to lose you") and then I'd have to deal with the fallout.

[somedude81]

Thanks for going into further detali laotzu. I couldn't really put my finger on the reasons why not but I just knew it was a no. The reasons you gave make perfect sense.

[DepressedinDenver]

OP, arent you the one always complaining that you have little experience with guys but as we can see you obviously dont. You get defensive when some guys around here complain that they cannot get a women and then here you are playing against guys who cannot get girls by sticking with guys who dont want relationships.

 

Ya see why do some guys have trouble getting girls? Because they cannot get the girl sexually interested so even if he really does want a relationship and not just sex well he's screwed because she doesnt care. Why do girls have trouble getting relationships? Because they chase guys who don't want relationships. Then they think by having sex with them the guy will fall in love. Both genders play into each others troubles by not helping the other out.

 

And OP if you would just gain confidence as a woman you would have it easy in dating. As you have pointed out girls can get sex easily. If they would actually pursue relationships with confidence they would get that easily unlike some guys who have to work their asses off to get either.

 

Being back in the dating game after years I can see that many women do not want relationships because they settle for an FWB or 2. They're their own worse enemy.