Once I get it, I don't want it anymore..

[TheBigQuestion]

The one thing I've learned in my short dating life as far as the "paying" debate goes is that paying for dates with girls who might decide on a whim to not see you anymore is a very dumb idea. For example, I managed to get three friends with benefits, I was seeing a girl semi-seriously for about 2 months, and then I managed to get with my current girlfriend, all in the course of about 18 months. Other than money for gas and train fare, I didn't spend a penny on any of these girls that wasn't somehow reciprocated (i.e. we'd go out for drinks, and we'd take turns buying rounds). We would hang out at each other's places, go to parties at friends' houses, bars, and so forth. No dinners, no paying for her as a matter of habit or course, no bending over backwards while not knowing if she would stop talking to me on a whim.

 

If you have a large enough social network with enough "friends of friends," it's not hard at all to pull this sort of thing off. If you don't, then it's trickier since when you ask out a random girl or do online dating, you have to take the girls out on "dates." (I'm sure most girls aren't cool with having complete strangers from the internet over at their houses as a first "date," nor should they be). With my current girlfriend, I'm pretty sure our first actual date was after we were already in an "official" relationship.

 

This all wasn't conscious, mind you. But towards the end of my single life, I realized that I had managed to pull this off. Given that I have great disdain for societal expectations of how men are supposed to act in romantic situations in general, I was pretty pleased with myself. It made me realize that dating as traditionally construed is a sucker's game if you're a guy. It made me realize that there are ways to get both casual sex and committed, meaningful relationships without having to break the bank or feel like you're subduing yourself to a person you barely know.

 

I gladly take my girlfriend out to restaurants and plan fun, romantic activities, but that's a privilege she earned after displaying commitment. Mere months before I started seeing her, she went on a few dates with guys, all suckers who insisted on footing the bill, and for the most part, none of them got as much as a peck on the cheek. I was with her long before I ever had to whip out the green or the plastic. I think that speaks for itself.

[sally4sara]

Some people have made good points. I don't condone the way he goes about it but why is it that some women will defend to the death their right to be sexually free and sleep around but then get angry when a man gives it to them? Unless a woman is lied to or abused most of them in these situations are very much willing participants.

 

You already asked this question and Taramere already answered you.

 

People don't like being used. Say you have an interest in car mechanics. You see a woman stopped by a layby with the bonnet (or whatever you call it in the US) of her car open - peering helplessly inside. You approach and she turns on the charm, fluttering her eyelashes. "My car needs fixed. You look like a big strong chap. I wonder if you could help?" Flattered and pleased, you sort out her car - and enjoy doing so on account of your love of car mechanics. As soon as you've fixed her car, she smirks and says "I thought for a moment I might have to pay somebody to do it. Silly me. I always manage to get men to do what I want! So long, loser!"

 

You were willing and happy to fix her car - but doesn't the whole thing suddenly turn very sour when she acts as if you're some idiot who got sweet-talked into something he shouldn't have done? The dross who has served his purpose and can now be treated like a piece of crap?

[betterdeal]

Ok so I have a question then. I had a date planned with a lovely woman this past weekend. We planned it a week in advance for the movies. Cool, knew how much money to keep on the side. The day of, she changes her mind and says she wants to go a place more social. She wanted to go for drinks AND ice cream AND coffee AND dinner. What the **** trick? What did I do? Told her I couldn't come out to see her due to something popping up. She was cool about it, and she still talks to me..but the question here is, was I being cheap? I don't think so. What's the deal with women trying to see how much we will spend? I don't get it. They'll say "Money isn't important to me." but the second you don't want to spend an excessive amount of money on them they call you a cheapo.

 

Dude, you're remarkably shady in certain respects. You avoid conflict like the plague when you really don't need to. You're being sensible with your money. Nothing wrong with that, is there?

 

If she changes her mind and wants to do something out of your budget, just say so instead of making excuses. She may well then be happy going the see a film like originally planned. If she flakes, that's her loss.

 

You keep trying to keep up a front and then you flake out at the tiniest of doubts you have. Thing is 99% of people can see right through it anyway, so cut it out and stop being so ashamed of yourself.

[sally4sara]

The one thing I've learned in my short dating life as far as the "paying" debate goes is that paying for dates with girls who might decide on a whim to not see you anymore is a very dumb idea. For example, I managed to get three friends with benefits, I was seeing a girl semi-seriously for about 2 months, and then I managed to get with my current girlfriend, all in the course of about 18 months. Other than money for gas and train fare, I didn't spend a penny on any of these girls that wasn't somehow reciprocated (i.e. we'd go out for drinks, and we'd take turns buying rounds). We would hang out at each other's places, go to parties at friends' houses, bars, and so forth. No dinners, no paying for her as a matter of habit or course, no bending over backwards while not knowing if she would stop talking to me on a whim.

If you have a large enough social network with enough "friends of friends," it's not hard at all to pull this sort of thing off. If you don't, then it's trickier since when you ask out a random girl or do online dating, you have to take the girls out on "dates." (I'm sure most girls aren't cool with having complete strangers from the internet over at their houses as a first "date," nor should they be). With my current girlfriend, I'm pretty sure our first actual date was after we were already in an "official" relationship.

 

This all wasn't conscious, mind you. But towards the end of my single life, I realized that I had managed to pull this off. Given that I have great disdain for societal expectations of how men are supposed to act in romantic situations in general, I was pretty pleased with myself. It made me realize that dating as traditionally construed is a sucker's game if you're a guy. It made me realize that there are ways to get both casual sex and committed, meaningful relationships without having to break the bank or feel like you're subduing yourself to a person you barely know.

 

I gladly take my girlfriend out to restaurants and plan fun, romantic activities, but that's a privilege she earned after displaying commitment. Mere months before I started seeing her, she went on a few dates with guys, all suckers who insisted on footing the bill, and for the most part, none of them got as much as a peck on the cheek. I was with her long before I ever had to whip out the green or the plastic. I think that speaks for itself.

 

So you found some women who didn't give you stress, didn't play the entitled princess who expects you to pay her way everywhere, and I assume, shared sexual enjoyment with you and you think you pull some magical trick off over them? Seems to me you got what you gave and they got what they gave and the only thing ugly about any of it is that you think you pulled some con on them.

So if they treated you as well as you were offering and you feel what you reaped was enough to brag about what a slick fellow you are to have gained *whatever* what was it that they didn't earn that your GF did? All it seems you're saying is she also not expect you to foot the bill.

 

I get that a person can go on many dates with well mannered friendly folks and many of them will still not be what draws you to them for more than just a date or three a month. But considering the thread topic, I'm not really getting what you are implying by comparing the women you dated before to your current GF.

[Woggle]

The difference is that most men don't just fix women's cars for their own pleasure while women have sex for their own pleasure and tend to go after men like the OP. I wish women could hear how these oh so hot alphas talk about them when there are no women around.

 

It reminds me of how my one FWB acted. She prided herself on using men for sex like they did to women but acted like she was the big victim when I was the first man who didn't fall in love and just wanted sex even though I was 100% honest from the start.

 

I don't like what the OP does but stop acting like women are these innocent little corrupted by the big bad players. It doesn't work that way.

[sally4sara]

The difference is that most men don't just fix women's cars for their own pleasure while women have sex for their own pleasure and tend to go after men like the OP. I wish women could hear how these oh so hot alphas talk about them when there are no women around.

 

It reminds me of how my one FWB acted. She prided herself on using men for sex like they did to women but acted like she was the big victim when I was the first man who didn't fall in love and just wanted sex even though I was 100% honest from the start.

 

I don't like what the OP does but stop acting like women are these innocent little corrupted by the big bad players. It doesn't work that way.

 

It was a hypothetical example Woggle. try not to take everything demonstrative as literal as you possibly can. All she was trying to tell you is when two consenting adults want to do something together where they both receive pleasure, it is just unnecessarily petty and spiteful to then treat the person you shared this with like you tricked them and they are low to you.

[TheBigQuestion]

So you found some women who didn't give you stress, didn't play the entitled princess who expects you to pay her way everywhere, and I assume, shared sexual enjoyment with you and you think you pull some magical trick off over them? Seems to me you got what you gave and they got what they gave and the only thing ugly about any of it is that you think you pulled some con on them.

So if they treated you as well as you were offering and you feel what you reaped was enough to brag about what a slick fellow you are to have gained *whatever* what was it that they didn't earn that your GF did? All it seems you're saying is she also not expect you to foot the bill.

 

I get that a person can go on many dates with well mannered friendly folks and many of them will still not be what draws you to them for more than just a date or three a month. But considering the thread topic, I'm not really getting what you are implying by comparing the women you dated before to your current GF.

 

I didn't really mean it as a comparison between anyone in particular. It was a response to dream merchant's post about spending money on women. I only spoke about my experiences to illustrate the point that he needs to look elsewhere if he wants to avoid getting played in the way he described. I admittedly have a strong disdain for men who insist on taking out their wallets before knowing exactly where they stand with a woman, and I may have rambled a bit as a result.

 

I don't think I pulled a "con" on anyone. I used that kind of terminology because doing what I did sounds rare, at least from my perspective.

[Woggle]

It was a hypothetical example Woggle. try not to take everything demonstrative as literal as you possibly can. All she was trying to tell you is when two consenting adults want to do something together where they both receive pleasure, it is just unnecessarily petty and spiteful to then treat the person you shared this with like you tricked them and they are low to you.

 

I agree but sadly the world is not like that these days. I wish it were.

[betterdeal]

So you found some women who didn't give you stress, didn't play the entitled princess who expects you to pay her way everywhere, and I assume, shared sexual enjoyment with you and you think you pull some magical trick off over them? Seems to me you got what you gave and they got what they gave and the only thing ugly about any of it is that you think you pulled some con on them.

So if they treated you as well as you were offering and you feel what you reaped was enough to brag about what a slick fellow you are to have gained *whatever* what was it that they didn't earn that your GF did? All it seems you're saying is she also not expect you to foot the bill.

 

I get that a person can go on many dates with well mannered friendly folks and many of them will still not be what draws you to them for more than just a date or three a month. But considering the thread topic, I'm not really getting what you are implying by comparing the women you dated before to your current GF.

 

He could just be being humble, and you could be being a touch overly critical. He managed to pull off an egalitarian relationship with equal to and fro. Surely a man being proud about that is not *that* bad a thing?

[Elysian Powder]

Ok so I have a question then. I had a date planned with a lovely woman this past weekend. We planned it a week in advance for the movies. Cool, knew how much money to keep on the side. The day of, she changes her mind and says she wants to go a place more social. She wanted to go for drinks AND ice cream AND coffee AND dinner. What the **** trick? What did I do? Told her I couldn't come out to see her due to something popping up. She was cool about it, and she still talks to me..but the question here is, was I being cheap? I don't think so. What's the deal with women trying to see how much we will spend? I don't get it. They'll say "Money isn't important to me." but the second you don't want to spend an excessive amount of money on them they call you a cheapo.

 

 

They're trying to find out how much you like them. By paying money to being near them - and ideally the more money you spend on them the better - they learn that you are ''boyfriend material''.

 

That is to say that you if you are into spending money on them, you are also good enough to put up with their emotional drama, their friends and family.

 

You'll also be a rock by her side. You know how women put out incredibly fast to ''secure'' a desirable mate, right?

 

Say goodbye to that. You are now her boyfriend. Her mating instincts will classify you as the provider. You are in her life to supply her with resources, attention and protection.

 

She'll use a cad to satisfy her sexual needs. Do not be sad!

 

You are the special one! You go to be with her dozens of years after she started blowing Alpha male salami, and you are clearly the lucky one because you have an increasingly fat and obnoxious girlfriend or wife.

 

Of course we can't blame the Alpha who first nailed her when she was 16 years old and putting out to gain the right to brag to her girlfriends that she has banged the local junkie/drug dealer/bad boy, completely obvious to the fact that all of her friends - and much more females - also feel entitled to the same bragging rights .

 

Mate. And best of all? If you spend a certain amount of money, demonstrate a higher capacity(than the Alpha males possess) for emotional investment and flexibility..

 

Congratulations!

 

Your Tokyo Airport of Alpha salami going in and out(the woman) had a ''oops'' moment!

 

You're gonna be a daddy!

 

Say hello to 18 years of child-support.

 

If you are lucky enough, the kid might actually belong to you.

 

LOL!

[sally4sara]

He could just be being humble, and you could be being a touch overly critical. He managed to pull off an egalitarian relationship with equal to and fro. Surely a man being proud about that is not *that* bad a thing?

 

Already explained to him that due to the thread subject I wasn't sure if I was taking in what he was saying correctly or what he was trying to suggest in comparing his current GF to AH %*&^ %^ why am I having to explain myself twice to someone I didn't address in a stupid thread? This place is like WOW lite with how much time it sucks off with no result.

[Elysian Powder]

They'll say "Money isn't important to me." but the second you don't want to spend an excessive amount of money on them they call you a cheapo.

 

Women are notoriously good at having money. You've never noticed how they don't pay that much attention to a man who is good-looking but lacking in the money department; but they suddenly earn a job as personal bookkeepers for the men they wouldn't sexually touch - in their teens and 20's - and make sure that the men don't spend ''careless'' money on video games or on himself?

 

Goodness gracious! How would the women maintain their artificial beauty(to later land a richer man)??

 

You'll notice this behavior in very young females.

 

One of my little cousins is only 5 years old and she spends all her time counting daddy's money, paying attention to any kind-hearted old men, in order to receive an ice cream, cakes and toys, and she's always grabbing my hands to see if I have money.

 

Now that I think of it...

 

Replace ''father'' with ''husband'' and ''kind-hearted old men'' with white knights and boyfriends.

 

Man, I sure wouldn't mind to being part of the ''oppressed sex''.

 

Haha.

Edited September 7, 2011 by Elysian Powder

[serial muse]

Gold digging is a well known concept - gold digging is universally despised by all. This differs greatly from your typical dating situation where one's character is often questioned, many times in a negative sense, according to their ability to fund the date. This situation, mirrors the character assassination that many women are put under when it comes to casual sex.

 

The big difference being, very, very, very little focus/scrutiny is ever put on the behavior of women in this dating setting. And its no wonder, people have a hard time seeing the difference between a gold digger, which is just someone out for a free ride, and someone making a judgment call based on someone's ability to pay or not. There's a world of difference, maybe even bigger than I even realized if some of the responses here are anything to go by.

 

Bottom line is, gender based decisions are made all the time, but some are put under far more scrutiny than others.

 

 

.

 

Bizarrely, you are ignoring my point.

 

As I said before, on these boards - which is the relevant space, because that is also where we are critiquing the OP - gender based decisions that focus on women's behavior, such as on who will pay, are put under INTENSE scrutiny. On these boards. Are you hearing me yet? This is a matter of record.

 

So, again - your point does not hold water here.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

Elysian Powder

Goodness gracious! How would the women maintain their artificial beauty(to later land a richer man)??

 

I thought you were a fan of artifical beauty in women?

 

 

One of my little cousins is only 5 years old and she spends all her time counting daddy's money, paying attention to any kind-hearted old men, in order to receive an ice cream, cakes and toys, and she's always grabbing my hands to see if I have money.

 

When me and my brother where little he use to punch me around, he would grab all his toys back if anyone touched them and he would lock me in the bathroom by sticking a chair under the door knob. I guess he was just practicing for when he was older so he could beat women and lock them in rooms and be stingy with his stuff.

 

Oh and he use to put my mom's bras on.

 

Amazing how now he's managed to never beat a woman, is eager to have a wife and family of his own, a regular church goer, has a fanastic job in a management position, does a lot of volunteer work (infact, one time while in Washington DC for a work conference he noticed all the homeless people and instead of going to one of the workshops, bought a ton of bread and peanut butter and jelly to make and pass out to the homeless in the area), he enjoys football and has had the same dog for the past 9 years that he adopted after saving from a busy freeway that it was running around on.

[betterdeal]

Already explained to him that due to the thread subject I wasn't sure if I was taking in what he was saying correctly or what he was trying to suggest in comparing his current GF to AH %*&^ %^ why am I having to explain myself twice to someone I didn't address in a stupid thread? This place is like WOW lite with how much time it sucks off with no result.

 

It's a forum. People write things. Some will respond to what you write. That's the general gist of it. Don't feel obliged to reply to anything - there's no "having to" to it.

[dasein]

One of my little cousins is only 5 years old and she spends all her time counting daddy's money, paying attention to any kind-hearted old men, in order to receive an ice cream, cakes and toys, and she's always grabbing my hands to see if I have money.

 

That's hilarious, if not exactly dispositive of anything, but does come really close to a good point. When I was young, experienced this personally, and through many other families, young girls were treated differently than young men. Young girls were allowed to rant around and screech like banshees about nothing, make up the most preposterous lies and fabrications, shamelessly manipulate the people in their lives, well into their teens, behavior that would have gotten me beaten near unconscious. Young girls lying? "Aww she's a little con artist she is!" Young men lying, "You wait right there son... I'll be right back... with something special for you..." My sister had an imaginary friend. Something visceral told me similar behavior in myself would be met with immediate, dire consequences.

 

Now this was in the 80s, after the social order was upturned, can only imagine the differences in my father's or grandfather's day.

 

This was merely raising boys and girls differently towards preordained social roles though, completely reasonable within the old order. He is supposed to conquer the world, and she is supposed to conquer men.

 

And if your particular upbringing wasn't like this, I don't care, doesn't mean this wasn't the way children were generally raised or invalidate my admittedly anecdotal point in any way.

 

So it's not all the women's fault of that generation(s) (the ones I've had the misfortune to have in my dating pool my entire life) that they were raised to have no sense of accountability, no ability to reason logically, no grasp on basic reality. Their parents did it to them to an extent, and messed up men for the new world order also by teaching us we were to shoulder all burdens without complaint to the extent that we are now so easily taken advantage of and conned by the current extremely biased social order.

 

We men aren't supposed to whine and complain, were raised not to, but today, until we open our eyes and learn to complain, whine and question, we are suckers of the system. Read back through this whole thread, look at the replies carefully, and tell me I'm wrong. What, we are just supposed to accept obvious fabrications just because a woman made them up? I think not.

[A O]

What's the deal with women trying to see how much we will spend? I don't get it.

Some women equate a mans ability to spend on a date with their ability to provide within a relationship. Used to be quite important back in the day where there was only one provider. Far from so now. Bottom line though, its their attitude towards ones (in)ability to spend that is the problem much like its your attitude to women that have casual sex with you that is a problem.

 

Bizarrely, you are ignoring my point.

As I said before, on these boards - which is the relevant space, because that is also where we are critiquing the OP - gender based decisions that focus on women's behavior, such as on who will pay, are put under INTENSE scrutiny. On these boards. Are you hearing me yet? This is a matter of record. So, again - your point does not hold water here.

I'm not ignoring your point, its just that our points differ. If you want to talk about male/female behavior being critiqued equally, fine, I neither agree or disagree with your point. It is not where I'm coming from.

 

My point is - poor behavior, a poor attitude towards the opposite sex within the bounds of the two circumstances being discussed here, casual sex and paying for dates, and which one of these attitudes is consistently critiqued and which one rarely, if ever draws fire.

 

The OP's poor attitude is crystal clear to see for most people here to see. Thus, it draws a lot of criticism and rightly so IMO. The attitude that some women display when it comes to paying for dates, their often dismissive attitude towards men who do not meet their expectations, this poor attitude rarely, if ever gets critiqued.

 

Attitudes and our different responses to them - that's the point.

 

 

 

.

[Disenchantedly Yours]

dasein:

That's hilarious, if not exactly dispositive of anything, but does come really close to a good point. When I was young, experienced this personally, and through many other families, young girls were treated differently than young men. Young girls were allowed to rant around and screech like banshees about nothing, make up the most preposterous lies and fabrications, shamelessly manipulate the people in their lives, well into their teens, behavior that would have gotten me beaten near unconscious. Young girls lying? "Aww she's a little con artist she is!" Young men lying, "You wait right there son... I'll be right back... with something special for you..." My sister had an imaginary friend. Something visceral told me similar behavior in myself would be met with immediate, dire consequences.

 

Maybe in your family Dasein, but in general, children of the 80s and 90s have been spoiled on both sides of the coin. Young men today aren't exactly pillars of maturity any more then young women are. Women might express this immaturity differently, that I would agree with. But I see so many examples of men well into their 20s that sit around playing video games and downloading internet porn. NOt exactly the stuff their fathers and grandfathers were made out either. I am not saying this to put men down. Young women have their own issues of entitlement. But we do not live in a world where everything was peaches and cream for young girls but snails and beat down for boys.

 

 

So it's not all the women's fault of that generation(s) (the ones I've had the misfortune to have in my dating pool my entire life) that they were raised to have no sense of accountability, no ability to reason logically, no grasp on basic reality.

 

Pray tell, how young men live up to their accountability, logic and reality? Cause I don't know what world you live in but I don't see a world where men are pillars of strength, accountablity and reason and women are not. I see a world where both genders aren't like their grandparents generation.

[dasein]

but in general, children of the 80s and 90s have been spoiled on both sides of the coin.

 

No argument there generally, but my comment was about the 80s (early 80s) and before, not the 80s and 90s and after. Our reproductive and child-rearing culture have become so hopelessly messed up today that all bets are off other than that a vast majority of children today of both genders are likely being raised very poorly.

[ThsAmericanLife]

Ok so I have a question then. I had a date planned with a lovely woman this past weekend. We planned it a week in advance for the movies. Cool, knew how much money to keep on the side. The day of, she changes her mind and says she wants to go a place more social. She wanted to go for drinks AND ice cream AND coffee AND dinner. What the **** trick? What did I do? Told her I couldn't come out to see her due to something popping up. She was cool about it, and she still talks to me..but the question here is, was I being cheap? I don't think so. What's the deal with women trying to see how much we will spend? I don't get it. They'll say "Money isn't important to me." but the second you don't want to spend an excessive amount of money on them they call you a cheapo.

 

She wasn't willing to put out for a movie date maybe?

[ThsAmericanLife]

I have to give it up to dasein though, he's really sticking it to Mme.Chaucer and I've noticed her lack of responses to his accusations, more than enough evidence for all to see. Maybe when she's done being a biased sexist on a dating advice forum she'll come off of the ignore list.

 

In time, you'll wish you took her advice.

 

You do have time to change your ways... but I doubt you will. That's fine. Both of us have had the opportunity to view the wreckage men like you make of their lives.

 

The fact that she was willing to come here and take this abuse to try and help you is an indication of her character.

 

You... on the other hand... have none.

 

But that's ok... I don't need to be here to know I'm right and neither does she... Unlike you... both myself and Mme Chaucer have the benefit of experience.

 

So, carry on...

[dasein]

The fact that she was willing to come here and take this abuse to try and help you is an indication of her character.

 

"Abuse?" Please. If there is any poster here whose ratio of handing out abuse v taking it approaches 100:1, it's her.

[ThsAmericanLife]

"Abuse?" Please. If there is any poster here whose ratio of handing out abuse v taking it approaches 100:1, it's her.

 

I haven't observed that.

 

Alot of people don't like her because she admits to being a feminist... which they equate with being anti-male.

 

My impression of her posts on this particular thread is that she is objecting to the premeditated, destructive behavior of the OP.

 

He's not a lover of just casual sex.... He seems to enjoy hurting women... and as often as possible.

 

So, yea, I agree with her (figuratively)... does someone who kicks kittens make one a serial killer? No, but I'm betting most serial killers started out that way.

 

People like the OP don't need defending anyway. Enough of us have tried to see inside into why he has such hatred, and it is pretty much void.

 

That equals sociopath. The world is full of them and no need to have 32+ pages coddling one.

[dasein]

premeditated, destructive behavior of the OP.

 

and by the above language...

 

That equals sociopath.

 

...and this, I know I am wasting my breath, but... do you think every 23 y.o. cocky guy with a disdainful attitude about women is a... sociopath? Do you know what a sociopath is?

 

Guess what? It's a dating board, I broke up a 7 yr relationship in early July, I have a bad attitude about women, does that make me a "sociopath" too? Thread reminds me of the Miller play "The Crucible" and should be subtitled "Much Ado About Nothing."

[Disenchantedly Yours]

No argument there generally, but my comment was about the 80s (early 80s) and before, not the 80s and 90s and after. Our reproductive and child-rearing culture have become so hopelessly messed up today that all bets are off other than that a vast majority of children today of both genders are likely being raised very poorly.

 

Yes, even in the 80s (early 80s) "and before", young boys were just as spoiled as young girls.