Why don't atheists meet?

[Ruby Slippers]

If forced to check a box on a form, I call myself agnostic rather than atheist, which just means that I believe we do not know and cannot know. To me, the certainty of "there is no god" is as misguided as the certainty of "there is a god".

 

Almost all of my friends are agnostic or atheist. I don't have to look for them. Since I seek out very intelligent, freethinking people as friends, these are the kind of people I meet.

[shadowofman]

I understand your statement Ruby, but I find agnosticism cowardly. Especially when concerning the topic of another's idea of God.

 

In other words, if a Christian asks, you'd say you're agnostic.

But chances are you are an atheist when it comes to Cthulhu.

 

Most people would never give a follower of Cthulhu the pleasure of a "maybe" response. The idea is preposterous. As is the idea of Abraham's god.

[shadowofman]

Personally, I could go all day saying that I'm agnostic, because let's face it, I am but a human with a minute knowledge of the universe.

 

But if forced to check a box, atheist all the way.

[Ruby Slippers]

I understand your statement Ruby, but I find agnosticism cowardly. Especially when concerning the topic of another's idea of God.

 

In other words, if a Christian asks, you'd say you're agnostic.

But chances are you are an atheist when it comes to Cthulhu.

 

Most people would never give a follower of Cthulhu the pleasure of a "maybe" response. The idea is preposterous. As is the idea of Abraham's god.

I respect everyone's genuine beliefs as equally valid.

 

The thing is that gods, angels, devils, and all the rest are just mythic representations of ideas that are big and can be hard to grasp in the purely abstract. I understand people's strong and deep need to create these intriguing tangible frameworks for the spiritual part of their lives.

 

The reason I call myself agnostic rather than atheist is that I don't believe human beings have the capability to unfalteringly prove or disprove the existence or nonexistence of a deity.

[shadowofman]

The reason I call myself agnostic rather than atheist is that I don't believe human beings have the capability to unfalteringly prove or disprove the existence or nonexistence of a deity.

 

Of course we don't have the capacity. But that's beyond the point. Of all the deities in all the worlds cultures, are you agnostic of them all? Are you atheist about any of them? Why or why not?

 

I respect everyone's genuine beliefs as equally valid.

 

Also, beliefs are never equal. One's right to belief them most be respected, but the beliefs themselves may be correct, incorrect, admirable or ridiculous. I respect NAMBA's right to believe pedophilia is beautiful, but I do not respect the belief.

 

The thing is that gods, angels, devils, and all the rest are just mythic representations of ideas that are big and can be hard to grasp in the purely abstract. I understand people's strong and deep need to create these intriguing tangible frameworks for the spiritual part of their lives.

 

This is a fantastic presentation by Neil DeGrasse Tyson about some of the most intelligent minds ever known and their irrational beliefs. Brilliant talk! http://www.haydenplanetarium.org/tyson/watch/2006/11/05/on-intelligent-design

 

He describes religious belief as "Philosophy of Ignorance". (His word's and not mine Agent D. Please do not punish me for expressing academic points of view in the name of some folk's intolerance.) There is nothing wrong with suggesting that Newton, in all of his brilliance, was in fact ignorant. As I am. And as everyone here is.

[Ruby Slippers]

Of all the deities in all the worlds cultures, are you agnostic of them all? Are you atheist about any of them? Why or why not?

To me, all deities are imaginary hocus pocus. But I have no way to prove that any of them are. I believe they are hocus pocus, but I do not and cannot know that they are.

 

Also, beliefs are never equal. One's right to belief them most be respected, but the beliefs themselves may be correct, incorrect, admirable or ridiculous. I respect NAMBA's right to believe pedophilia is beautiful, but I do not respect the belief.

Beliefs and practices are not the same thing. You can believe in God, Zeus, or Shiva all you want, and pray to them all you want, as long as you don't hurt others with your behavior carried out in the name of your beliefs.

 

And people of just about all stripes do reprehensible things to other people.

[austyre]

yeah its could comic-con oohh sorry just found out Jedi is classed as a religion

 

may the force be with me:)

[Forever Learning]

yeah its could comic-con oohh sorry just found out Jedi is classed as a religion

 

may the force be with me:)

 

I admit of all the religions the Jedi religion is the niftiest I've encountered.

 

Of course Jesus strikes me as the coolest Jedi thus far, although Buddha gives him a run for his money.

[shadowofman]

To me, all deities are imaginary hocus pocus. But I have no way to prove that any of them are. I believe they are hocus pocus, but I do not and cannot know that they are.

 

Atheism doesn't require proof because it is a lack of belief. If you lack a belief, then you are atheist. It is disingenuous to say that you belief that something does not exist. It is more accurate to say that you do not believe in the existence of.

 

Agnostic means that you lack a knowledge of. In other words, you can be a theist and lack the knowledge of your deity. Or you can be a Gnostic theist if you were so bold.

[Ruby Slippers]

From Webster's dictionary:

 

atheist: one who believes that there is no deity

 

agnostic: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable

[Disillusioned]

From Webster's dictionary:

 

atheist: one who believes that there is no deity

 

agnostic: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable

 

OMG... an LSer actually looked something up in a dictionary and didn't get a brainache!

[linwood]

From Webster's dictionary:

 

atheist: one who believes that there is no deity

 

agnostic: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable

 

Actually Webster's is incorrect in it`s definition and always has been.

Up until recently the Webster definition of Atheist included "immoral"

 

They`ve since fixed that but they continue to miss it.

 

An atheist is "one who holds no belief in a deity"

Not "one who believes there is no deity".

 

The difference in language is subtle.

The difference in meaning is huge.

 

"Agnostic" is more of an adjective than a noun.

It simply implies "lack of knowledge"

 

One can be an agnostic-christian in fact.

[D-Lish]

As I said before, Atheists do meet on a regular basis. We gravitate towards one another in our friendships, courtships, science class, etc. I don't have a close friend that "believes in God"... I have in the past, and I've been fine with overlooking it- but for the most part, I gravitate towards people that hold my same belief system.

 

Why aren't there formals groups? There would be no point to it. We don't consider religion as a part of our lives, so we don't need to get together to dispute it or talk about it- because it's something that's a non-issue for us.

 

I feel no need to get together with a group of "like" minded people every Sunday to affirm what I already know to be my own personal belief.

 

An organized meeting with Atheists would be very short. Someone would shout out "I don't believe in god(s)" Someone else would shout out "I agree"... Where do you go from there? Out for pints I suppose:)

[Zaphod B]

An organized meeting with Atheists would be very short. Someone would shout out "I don't believe in god(s)" Someone else would shout out "I agree"... Where do you go from there? Out for pints I suppose:)

 

Ha ha. Absolutely. No disunity when it comes to God there, unlike with organised religion!

[redenfoneevah]

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[NoIDidn't]

I think people are splitting hairs with Ruby Slippers about defining herself as a Agnostic regarding which god she is Agnostic concerning. It doesn't matter, an Agnostic simply believes that their is a deity and that they can't know him/her/it in the way that those that follow organized religions believe that they can know and characterize their deity.

 

I have many Agnostic family members. They will not call their "deity" Jesus, Buddha, Allah, or any other name assigned by the organized religions for their gods. They simply believe that there is a higher being and that all things can't be explained by science. They are critical of the machinations of organized religion, but not about the fact that people actually believe in a deity.

 

But I will say that believing that believing in a god is imaginary hocus pocus, but saying that one is Agnostic does sound like fear of the ultimate buy in to atheism. Going by the definition, Agnostics don't think that believing in a god is silly, they refuse to box their deity in an organized religion, they also don't worship their deity, and pretty much accept that they can't prove or disprove their belief in this unknown deity.

 

(Sorry Ruby, I found your answers and the responses to them interesting and wanted to chime in. And for the record, I find myself feeling like an Agnostic-Christian, if there could truly be such a thing)

[Zaphod B]

I think people are splitting hairs with Ruby Slippers about defining herself as a Agnostic regarding which god she is Agnostic concerning. It doesn't matter' date=' an Agnostic simply believes that their is a deity and that they can't know him/her/it in the way that those that follow organized religions believe that they can know and characterize their deity.[/quote']

 

Errr no, that's not an agnostic, that's a deist. An agnostic cannot say whether a God exists or not, because they see no way to prove it. The main difference between an agnostic and an atheist is that an atheist flat out says "There's no God".

 

I have many Agnostic family members. They will not call their "deity" Jesus, Buddha, Allah, or any other name assigned by the organized religions for their gods. They simply believe that there is a higher being and that all things can't be explained by science. They are critical of the machinations of organized religion, but not about the fact that people actually believe in a deity.

 

What you describe here is the classic example of Deism. If you believe in any type of God, then you are by definition not an agnostic. Check out the definition of "deist".

Edited August 5, 2011 by Zaphod B

[shadowofman]

Splitting hairs maybe. But it is necessary because people are incredibly misinformed on these matters.

 

Agnosticism speaks nothing of your belief. It speaks to your knowledge. As was stated, you can be an agnostic theist or and agnostic atheist.

 

There needs to be a word for someone that does not know what they believe. Because you either believe or you don't. Or you flip flop on the matter at hand. Agnosticism might influence the fact that you don't know what you believe.

 

Fides incognitus. Is the best I can come up with.

 

Also, there are people like my mother that believe in everything. I call them omni persuasists.

[Ruby Slippers]

Agnosticism speaks nothing of your belief. It speaks to your knowledge.

No atheist has any more knowledge of whether or not a deity exists than any agnostic does. No one can KNOW.

[NoIDidn't]

Errr no, that's not an agnostic, that's a deist. An agnostic cannot say whether a God exists or not, because they see no way to prove it. The main difference between an agnostic and an atheist is that an atheist flat out says "There's no God".

 

You're right, but that's what they call themselves. It might be that I have misrepresented their thoughts here. Or I just didn't understand their reasoning. My understanding of being an agnostic was that they didn't worship any deity but accepted the possibility of one existing.

 

What you describe here is the classic example of Deism. If you believe in any type of God, then you are by definition not an agnostic. Check out the definition of "deist".

 

Correct, again. But they continue to call themselves agnostic. I'm certainly not going to correct them. These are people who respect religious traditions but don't follow any of them. They mainly consider themselves "soulful" or "spiritual".

 

But you are right, I probably didn't add much to this conversation other than to add confusion on the meaning of the terms. And I have a question about the terms, even though I could look them up myself: deist vs. theist?

[NoIDidn't]

Splitting hairs maybe. But it is necessary because people are incredibly misinformed on these matters.

 

Agnosticism speaks nothing of your belief. It speaks to your knowledge. As was stated, you can be an agnostic theist or and agnostic atheist.

 

There needs to be a word for someone that does not know what they believe. Because you either believe or you don't. Or you flip flop on the matter at hand. Agnosticism might influence the fact that you don't know what you believe.

 

Fides incognitus. Is the best I can come up with.

 

Also, there are people like my mother that believe in everything. I call them omni persuasists.

 

I appreciate this post, as I've had the meaning of agnostic mixed up for years. The bolded clears it right up.

 

Its difficult to believe in something and question the truths some of its tenets at the same time. I don't think its a simple matter of it being "unknown" but a matter of it being "unclear" and too convoluted to be known.

 

I think its too simple to tell people to believe or not as it doesn't address the specific questions they have. Its throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

There are many things that I don't believe have anything to do with Christianity that other Christians would stone me over. So I don't think its as easy as saying because I don't believe X, I should choose whether A - W, Y, and Z are true as well.

[D-Lish]

No atheist has any more knowledge of whether or not a deity exists than any agnostic does. No one can KNOW.

 

My friends make fun of me because I am an Atheist and a Religious Studies graduate. IMO, you can never truly define yourself as being "anything" without exploring both sides of the coin in depth. I took religious studies as a major because I grew up with a mother that forced me to go to church and shoved religion down my throat. So did my aunt and extended family. So I decided to do some exploration into the topic. I find culture and religion fascinating- and I enjoyed my degree. But it didn't change anything for me.

 

I can now tell my mother that I have read the Bible from cover to cover- educated myself on the other side- and still remain an Atheist.

[shadowofman]

No atheist has any more knowledge of whether or not a deity exists than any agnostic does. No one can KNOW.

 

Then you are a militant agnostic. Besides what you think, many, many gnostics exist.

 

Its difficult to believe in something and question the truths some of its tenets at the same time. I don't think its a simple matter of it being "unknown" but a matter of it being "unclear" and too convoluted to be known.

 

I think most believers do question their beliefs. I have heard many a preacher discuss the fact that this is natural and that one should simply have faith. Which is another way of saying, "don't think, just accept". But to your point, "unknown"/"unclear", I don't see much difference.

 

I think its too simple to tell people to believe or not as it doesn't address the specific questions they have. Its throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

I'm not telling people to believe or not. I'm suggesting that they already do believe or not. But that people can often flip flop back and forth. And that calling yourself agnostic is not only incorrect usage of the word, but it's disingenuous. A described agnostic tends to lean one way or the other and often does not ponder this question enough to know what they believe.

 

There are many things that I don't believe have anything to do with Christianity that other Christians would stone me over. So I don't think its as easy as saying because I don't believe X, I should choose whether A - W, Y, and Z are true as well.

 

Each individual belief must be examined on it's own. A Christian might believe that Jesus is the son of God or they are not a Christian. Other than that, there are hundreds of beliefs which differentiate Christians into hundreds of denominations. And still hundreds of thousands of unique individual interpretations/assumptions of the nature of God.

 

Of course, all of this is sort of irrelevant to the terms theist and atheist. I don't know why deist is included as a separate category. They are still theists. It's still a religious sect.

[Trojan John]

Atheists do in fact meet up, and in a coordinated fashion.

 

There are a couple of free-thinkers groups in the US that meet monthly, there was an event in Oklahoma recently, and there will be one here in Zürich in September.

[Ruby Slippers]

From wikipedia: Agnosticism is the view that the truth value of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, but also other religious and metaphysical claims—is unknown or unknowable.

 

Within agnosticism there are agnostic atheists (who do not believe any deity exists, but do not deny it as a possibility) and agnostic theists (who believe a God exists but do not claim to know that).

 

According to these definitions, I'm an agnostic atheist. I do not believe a deity exists, but I also believe that no one can be certain of the existence or non-existence of a deity.