Question for other girls: Relationship Inexperience?

[Ruby Slippers]

Just curious? What do you do that intimidates these men so much? I have not lived in the states too long(7 years) but from what i understand, isn't it a complaint of feminists that men still hold almost all positions of power?

My first love was intimidated by my good grades, the fact that I got some big scholarships, the fact that I spent a semester abroad, my cool musician and artist friends, some awards I won. It basically never ended.

 

My second boyfriend, an accomplished aerospace engineer with a PhD and amazing job, great friends, and everything in the world going for him, actually said to me, "Everything I can do, you can do better." He took me to his research lab once and was venting about a problem he couldn't solve. He frequently talked to me about the details of his work, and I loved it. I'm a science buff myself, so I had an idea. He tried my idea, and it worked. He was both wowed and threatened, and he admitted to both. When my idea worked, he raved to me and all his colleagues about it. A few days later, he told me it made him feel inferior that I'd solved a problem he'd been stuck on for weeks. "I'M THE ENGINEER," he said. I tried to pump him up and downplay what I had done, calling it a stroke of dumb luck, but the damage was done, apparently. He ASKED for my help solving a problem that had been vexing him and stressing him out, I gave him the help, and I was punished for it.

 

My next boyfriend was actually the least intimidated by my accomplishments, and the most supportive of them. The only thing he seemed intimidated by was the fact that I had more relationship and sexual experience than he did. But to his credit, he did not seem to take those insecurities out on me.

 

The next guy was an excellent guitar player who had been playing for years and practiced at least 2 hours every single day. I play guitar, too, but he's a million times better than me as a guitar player. We both write songs and sing, and we did music stuff together all the time. We were about to start performing out together, but then the relationship got complicated. He told me he was totally wowed to be with a girl who was a great musician, but it also intimidated him. He said music was one of the most important things to him, and it bothered him that I was a better singer and songwriter than he'll ever be. I immediately pointed out that he could play circles around me on guitar, and that turned me on and I loved to see him shine and show off his talent. He said he felt the same way about my singing and songwriting, but there was this gnawing feeling of jealousy about it.

 

And then the last guy I dated told me I could find a much better-looking guy than him and he was worried I might leave him for someone hotter someday.

 

What am I supposed to do to tiptoe around a man's fragile ego? Pretend I'm an idiot with no talent, put on 20 pounds, and wear frumpy clothes?

[zengirl]

My first love was intimidated by my good grades, the fact that I got some big scholarships, the fact that I spent a semester abroad, my cool musician and artist friends, some awards I won. It basically never ended.

 

My second boyfriend, an accomplished aerospace engineer with a PhD and amazing job, great friends, and everything in the world going for him, actually said to me, "Everything I can do, you can do better." He took me to his research lab once and was venting about a problem he couldn't solve. He frequently talked to me about the details of his work, and I loved it. I'm a science buff myself, so I had an idea. He tried my idea, and it worked. He was both wowed and threatened, and he admitted to both. When my idea worked, he raved to me and all his colleagues about it. A few days later, he told me it made him feel inferior that I'd solved a problem he'd been stuck on for weeks. "I'M THE ENGINEER," he said. I tried to pump him up and downplay what I had done, calling it a stroke of dumb luck, but the damage was done, apparently. He ASKED for my help solving a problem that had been vexing him and stressing him out, I gave him the help, and I was punished for it.

 

My next boyfriend was actually the least intimidated by my accomplishments, and the most supportive of them. The only thing he seemed intimidated by was the fact that I had more relationship and sexual experience than he did. But to his credit, he did not seem to take those insecurities out on me.

 

The next guy was an excellent guitar player who had been playing for years and practiced at least 2 hours every single day. I play guitar, too, but he's a million times better than me as a guitar player. We both write songs and sing, and we did music stuff together all the time. We were about to start performing out together, but then the relationship got complicated. He told me he was totally wowed to be with a girl who was a great musician, but it also intimidated him. He said music was one of the most important things to him, and it bothered him that I was a better singer and songwriter than he'll ever be. I immediately pointed out that he could play circles around me on guitar, and that turned me on and I loved to see him shine and show off his talent. He said he felt the same way about my singing and songwriting, but there was this gnawing feeling of jealousy about it.

 

And then the last guy I dated told me I could find a much better-looking guy than him and he was worried I might leave him for someone hotter someday.

 

What am I supposed to do to tiptoe around a man's fragile ego? Pretend I'm an idiot with no talent, put on 20 pounds, and wear frumpy clothes?

 

Wow. I wonder if this is an age/generation difference.

 

I consider myself very accomplished, intelligent, talented, well-traveled, and I've never had men anything other than PROUD of my accomplishments when they were with me. I've had multiple BFs say they never thought they'd find a girl as smart as I was and how awesome it was and many even claim I was smarter than them (I disagree; we had different strengths and were each smarter or not in different ways; I wouldn't date anyone I felt 'superior' or 'inferior' to). I've helped BFs with problems and such, and it's never made them feel inferior or anything other than supported (that they've shared at least) or visibly hindered the relationship. I suppose I often find partners who have different strengths than I do---because it's what I happen to like (I'm verbally oriented and love guys who are really math oriented, but I'm not bad at math by any means)---so perhaps that's it, or perhaps the younger generations of men have simply been socialized differently.

 

I actually don't know anyone in my generation who's had this issue persistently, but it is supposedly (based on TV shows and pop culture and the like) prominent in earlier generations. (My mother never experienced it, but she was not terribly educated or whatnot, though she's very smart, before she met my Stepdad. He loves her accomplishments though, but he's not a very ambitious guy; he's very accomplished, but he's probably the least egoistic person I know so likely a terrible example of his generation.)

 

Most guys make more money than me (I chose to switch to a field where money is not an issue) but most guys I know would love a sugar momma (in a jokey way; they'd certainly love to have a partner who made some money, but it's not a requirement), so I doubt that helps me. And with your experience, it sounds like these are all DIFFERENT issues in which male insecurity is entering your life, not really about money/providing. Do you think there's a pattern or lesson there? I would wonder what the Universe was giving me so many similar yet extraordinarily different experiences for? That sounds almost like a fated issue (or as a Buddhist, karma from a past life, but not wanting to bring my belief system into it, and I'm not even 100% I buy into that myself) to me, since it keeps arising. Odd.

[Ruby Slippers]

I think it is a generational issue. I used to not consider 20-something men for relationships, but I have changed my mind. One of the reasons I came around to this is that 20-something men do seem more impressed by than intimidated by my strengths and successes.

 

People in my age bracket came of age during a time of serious transition. Almost all of my friends have moms who rarely or never worked, and didn't do much beyond raising the kids. So they rarely had a chance to outshine the men. My mom is WAY smarter than my dad, but she rarely shows that off -- and when she does, it clearly intimidates him.

 

In contrast to our moms, all of my friends and I went to college and got started on our careers right away. My mom has expressed some mild feelings of envy for the freedom and opportunity I have enjoyed, and has been floored to learn that my boyfriends have all been great cooks who helped with the housework and did more of the work that women used to do almost exclusively.

 

Maybe I'm repeatedly choosing men who are insecure. But that's not something that's readily obvious from the start. In most cases, these guys appeared up front to be confident, successful, and secure. Most of these comments from the guys didn't come out until a year or two into the relationship. In the beginning, they were raving about me and everything I brought to the table, proudly showing me off to their family and friends, and driving the relationship forward. Only later does the dark side come out.

[thatone]

If women have raised their standards, I think it's only because they are accomplishing more and their own standard of living has increased. In my mom's day, all a woman really needed was a strong, reliable provider. In general, women of my mom's generation worked only low-paying jobs and needed a man to bring home the real money needed to raise a family. She and other women her age have tolerated all sorts of awful behavior from their men because they were dependent on them. Basically, they were a lot more desperate than women of today.

 

and here's where you go off track.

 

those women of yesteryear were in the same boat that men are in today, because many younger women today are every bit as awful in their behavior as the men you're describing. and men simply won't tolerate them. men can get sex from lesser women and not have to deal with the problems the princess comes with, and in so doing sleep a lot better at night.

 

 

Most of my single friends are financially stable, employed, independent, attractive, active and fit, sociable, fun, and talented in some way. It is damn near impossible to find available men who are the same.

 

most men aren't looking for 'independent' for anything but casual sex.

 

feminism, women's liberation, whatever you want to call it hasn't changed men. it can't change men. it can only change women. when a man is looking for a LTR or a wife, someone who keeps her distance while making time for friends and weekend activities is not relationship/marriage material. again, these types of women say they want confident men, then expect men to be tag alongs that accommodate her schedule and priorities. sorry, the answer is no, because those wants your friends have are contradictory. from a man's standpoint, the shy awkward girl who stays at home on fridays with a book and her dog is more desirable than your "active and independent" friends. at least they know she'll be available when they get off of work.

 

Having an FWB doesn't stop me or my friends from looking for an actual relationship. In fact, for me, it motivates me more to get out there and meet new people. When I'm not involved with a guy at all, I am more likely to feel lonely and unattractive. When I'm having regular sex, I feel happier, sexier, and more fun.

 

 

but it does stop you. because you can freely apply your fantasy about your perfect man to any and every man you meet, while keeping your boy toy on the side. no sane man is willing to compete with your FWB partner for your attention.

 

so your only course of action is to lie any relationship minded man you meet about your sexual habits.

 

and the first time a woman is caught in a lie, that woman is relegated to "no future" by any competent, stable, confident man on the spot. whether he persists to get laid or not is the only question that remains at that point.

 

 

Maybe I'm repeatedly choosing men who are insecure. But that's not something that's readily obvious from the start. In most cases, these guys appeared up front to be confident, successful, and secure. Most of these comments from the guys didn't come out until a year or two into the relationship. In the beginning, they were raving about me and everything I brought to the table, proudly showing me off to their family and friends, and driving the relationship forward. Only later does the dark side come out.

 

you're making them insecure, in all likelihood. those men were told by their single mothers to want women like you, but as time goes on they find out that they're not happy with the situation they find themselves in. again, men haven't changed, they are the same men your mother married, a lot of them just haven't realized or accepted it yet.

Edited July 29, 2011 by thatone

[ptp]

wow ruby, you seem ultra talented.

 

I have to kind of agree with zengirl. I smarter than your average bear, I have degree from a top 5 computer science university and I have never felt threatened by a girl who is intelligent. I like intelligent accomplished women and have dated a couple.

 

My only problem is that the intelligent women I have dated seem to enjoy things that I have no interest in such as literature, architecture, opera. For example one my exs always wanted to go to the opera or weird art exhibits that were in town. While i preferred going to the Natural History museum or the science and industry museum.

[Ruby Slippers]

from a man's standpoint, the shy awkward girl who stays at home on fridays with a book and her dog is more desirable than your "active and independent" friends.

Well, substitute a cat and that's me. I'm not that awkward, but I am more introverted and studious -- definitely never been a party girl, nor would I want to be. I just texted a friend and said I won't be joining them tonight. I just don't have any going out energy today at all. I'll be at home listening to music, working on my business, and I'm thinking about baking a cherry pie from scratch. Yum.

 

When I do go out with my friends, the loudmouth attention grabbers of the group are always the ones with men surrounding them.

 

so your only course of action is to lie any relationship minded man you meet about your sexual habits.

I haven't lied and won't. Right now, I am back to not having sex. But if I did meet a good relationship prospect while in an FWB situation, I would stop seeing the FWB and give it a chance. I'd be honest if he asked about my sexual activities. If he had a problem with the facts, he'd be free to move on. I wouldn't want to be with a guy who would judge me for that. For the record, I've had a sexual history talk with every guy I've gotten serious with, and I was open with them about the fact that I'd had a few one-nighters in the past. It wasn't an issue.

 

you're making them insecure, in all likelihood.

Wow, that's a good one. This would be like me telling a guy he's making his girlfriend needy or crazy.

 

those men were told by their single mothers to want women like you

Actually, no. The ones with single mothers were expected to find a nice submissive woman that the mother could control. You know, like a '50s housewife. The others were just hoping for a woman they could get along with.

[zengirl]

I think it is a generational issue. I used to not consider 20-something men for relationships, but I have changed my mind. One of the reasons I came around to this is that 20-something men do seem more impressed by than intimidated by my strengths and successes.

 

FTR, most of my exes (all of them actually) are in their 30s now. Many were in their 20s when I dated them, two in their early 30s. (Oldest exBFs are 34 now but they were 26 and 30 respectively when I started dating them.) Current BF is 28. I figured you were dating guys older than you, (at 36, right?) not just men in their 30s.

 

But I imagine there's a generational difference. Just not sure where the line is or where the trend started turning. A lot of my male friends (almost all of them) are in their 30s. But younger than 35.

 

People in my age bracket came of age during a time of serious transition. Almost all of my friends have moms who rarely or never worked, and didn't do much beyond raising the kids. So they rarely had a chance to outshine the men. My mom is WAY smarter than my dad, but she rarely shows that off -- and when she does, it clearly intimidates him.

 

Might be a combination of age and other socio-economic factors. I suppose I tend to hang with an educated crowd but a crowd that comes from a more middle class/working class family background (my parents are upper class now, but we were POOR when I was growing up; I have a few richer-familied friends, but not many) and even though a lot of my friends are 5-10 years older than me, even several your age, almost everyone I know had a working Mom. But you needed a working Mom to be that version of middle class.

 

I did date one guy (serious LTR I mean) who had a non-working Mom and a huge family (6 siblings) and she home-schooled them all and such. And he always cheered me on. He's the BF I've talked about before who I dated during the end of when I worked in advertising, and he was laid off while we lived together. Even that didn't hurt our relationship. (His resulting entrepreneurial success did, if anything.) He had absolutely no insecurities about my being "more successful" in any endeavor than him. He's one of the ones that's 34 now. And a super-good guy, but kind of materialistic for me. He's actually dating a woman who has a PhD and makes six figures right now.

 

The other guy the same age had a single mother. Most of the guys I've dated have divorced parents. Some had single Moms, some have stepdads. None have stepdads they like, sadly.

 

Maybe I'm repeatedly choosing men who are insecure. But that's not something that's readily obvious from the start. In most cases, these guys appeared up front to be confident, successful, and secure. Most of these comments from the guys didn't come out until a year or two into the relationship. In the beginning, they were raving about me and everything I brought to the table, proudly showing me off to their family and friends, and driving the relationship forward. Only later does the dark side come out.

 

Oh, it could be all kinds of things. And I certainly understand how that trait is hard to see from the beginning. It could also be "not the whole truth" as in just an excuse for other feelings of dissonance in the relationship (i.e. the natural decline in love drugs and its resulting effects). Or what the heck do I know?

[Woggle]

Do women ever look at themselves and ask what they are doing wrong in relationships? I am not saying that woman are always to blame but the relationship problems of today can't be all men's fault?

 

Another thing is that some misandrists use women's independence as an excuse to tell men how useless and disposable we are. Do you really expect the whole woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle mentality to not make men insecure? Some women have rammed this message down our throats so of course men have a complex about it. I don't agree with it but it is there.

[Ruby Slippers]

Do women ever look at themselves and ask what they are doing wrong in relationships? I am not saying that woman are always to blame but the relationship problems of today can't be all men's fault?

For what it's worth, I tend to put too much responsibility on myself. My counselor comments every time I talk to her that it sounds like I'm being really hard on myself and assuming too much blame when things go wrong. So yeah, believe me, I scrutinize myself all the time and try to figure out what I'm doing wrong.

 

Right now, I think that either I just don't know how to pick 'em, or I must be so unattractive that all I attract are losers. I don't think I'm that bad, but maybe I'm just fooling myself.

 

Another thing is that some misandrists use women's independence as an excuse to tell men how useless and disposable we are. Do you really expect the whole woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle mentality to not make men insecure?

You and I have discussed this before. I have never communicated to my man that I don't need him. I try to stand on my own two feet and not be needy or clingy, but I love leaning on my man when I need him and he can offer support.

 

I have always been looking for a great long-term relationship. Maybe I am expecting too much. It doesn't seem like I am. But the friends of mine who are married have made some major compromises and sacrifices to be in those relationships. Maybe I just need to compromise and sacrifice more.

[Woggle]

It might be a bad people picker. Mine was horrible before I met my wife.

 

You might not but the messages men get today are that we obsolete and disposable so men look for women who still have a reason to be with a man. I'm sorry that these men brought their issues into a relationship with you though.

[thatone]

It might be a bad people picker. Mine was horrible before I met my wife.

 

You might not but the messages men get today are that we obsolete and disposable so men look for women who still have a reason to be with a man.I'm sorry that these men brought their issues into a relationship with you though.

 

that's it precisely.

[MrNate]

It might be a bad people picker. Mine was horrible before I met my wife.

 

You might not but the messages men get today are that we obsolete and disposable so men look for women who still have a reason to be with a man. I'm sorry that these men brought their issues into a relationship with you though.

 

Going to have to give some credit to this. This isnt anything related to the thread, but I do believe society in general is becoming more anti-male. Doesn't really bother me much though, it just reminds me to keep my expectations of people very low in general. In all honesty, there's something about this I like though, maybe there's an air of honesty to it, not sure. Ha, whoever thought I'd feel this way at the ripe ol' age of 22. Who knows what year 23 will hold lol.

[zengirl]

Do women ever look at themselves and ask what they are doing wrong in relationships? I am not saying that woman are always to blame but the relationship problems of today can't be all men's fault?

 

Another thing is that some misandrists use women's independence as an excuse to tell men how useless and disposable we are. Do you really expect the whole woman needs a man like a fish needs a bicycle mentality to not make men insecure? Some women have rammed this message down our throats so of course men have a complex about it. I don't agree with it but it is there.

 

Well, it's not Ruby's fault if men are socialized to be insecure. So looking at "herself" wouldn't help this. But I think it's a good point.

 

I think the combination of men 'needing to feel needed' and 'not wanting a needy' woman is confusing in many instances to many people. It's something my mother kind of explained to me when I was little, and perhaps that socialization is why I don't feel like (except for a mildly 'needy' period in college where I was also just kind of a messed up person emotionally due to a lot of factors) I really have had trouble with the 'she doesn't need me!' male insecurity or the 'she's so needy!' male fear. Both exist, and it's a tightrope in theory.

 

Everyone wants to feel needed (not just men) but the language in the recent decades has been about how women don't need men, not how men don't need women, so I get how men could feel slightly more insecure on this, by socialization, especially with crops of women socialized to not be needy (not that being needy is a good thing, but so many women are trying to figure out how to need people and not be needy and what that really means and Do Men Really Like Bitches? and what the **** is going on? and it's all kind of an unhealthy smattering all the way around, for both genders). Really, everyone needs everyone.

 

But, of course, no one wants someone "needy" because that implies they need JUST ANYONE. People want to be needed (and wanted) and useful but in the right context. It all gets very confusing.

 

The moment I refer back to (when my Mom explained it to me) was when she told me that my Stepdad had wanted children but everyone thought a new kid would disrupt the family, so she thought he needed to feel like my Dad. This was great, because I needed a (good) Dad too, so even though I guess it sounds a little manipulative to write, it really wasn't intended in that spirit, I don't think. So, she basically encouraged me not to go to her with everything, as my sole parent (the natural thing to do) but to also sometimes go to him, so he could feel like an active and engaged parent. Feel needed. Feel a part of the family, in that way, as well as in his husband way, where my Mom always made him feel needed and important (and he did the same for her).

 

All people seek relationships where they feel needed and important---gone too far in either way, we get unhealthy: needy people who cannot stand on their own create toxic situations, but so do people who can do everything for themselves and don't need anyone to enrich their lives. Nowadays, I think many people are afraid to put their needs and wants and true hearts out there---lest they be rejected or thought of as less. I wanted my Stepdad to be my Dad, but I would never have expressed that had my mother not convinced me he was all about it. I would've been afraid. Even as a kid. And I think we take those kind of fears even further to extremes in romantic relationships, though they exist in friendly and familial relationships.

 

And that's where you get the "A man needs a woman like a fish needs a bicycle" bull****---from some women who are scared. The truth is, everyone (well, most people) needs somebody to love. Why can't we just say so?

[chiquita latina]

i agree with you when a guy has no past its nice because you dont have to worry about a girl popping anytime soon

[fortyninethousand322]

All people seek relationships where they feel needed and important---gone too far in either way, we get unhealthy: needy people who cannot stand on their own create toxic situations, but so do people who can do everything for themselves and don't need anyone to enrich their lives. Nowadays, I think many people are afraid to put their needs and wants and true hearts out there---lest they be rejected or thought of as less. I wanted my Stepdad to be my Dad, but I would never have expressed that had my mother not convinced me he was all about it. I would've been afraid. Even as a kid. And I think we take those kind of fears even further to extremes in romantic relationships, though they exist in friendly and familial relationships.

 

And that's where you get the "A man needs a woman like a fish needs a bicycle" bull****---from some women who are scared. The truth is, everyone (well, most people) needs somebody to love. Why can't we just say so?

 

I agreed with your whole post, but this part I felt was particularly accurate. You hit the nail on the head right here.

[ptp]

In my experience regardless of how much a woman is progressive and independent, at some point she express a basic need. Every GF I have ever had in our most private moments expressed that I made her feel "safe" and I made her feel "protected".

 

That is a basic need that only I could provide at that time. Society can't undo hundreds of thousands of years of evolution in a few decades.

[thatone]

Well, it's not Ruby's fault if men are socialized to be insecure. So looking at "herself" wouldn't help this. But I think it's a good point.

 

I think the combination of men 'needing to feel needed' and 'not wanting a needy' woman is confusing in many instances to many people. It's something my mother kind of explained to me when I was little, and perhaps that socialization is why I don't feel like (except for a mildly 'needy' period in college where I was also just kind of a messed up person emotionally due to a lot of factors) I really have had trouble with the 'she doesn't need me!' male insecurity or the 'she's so needy!' male fear. Both exist, and it's a tightrope in theory.

 

Everyone wants to feel needed (not just men) but the language in the recent decades has been about how women don't need men, not how men don't need women, so I get how men could feel slightly more insecure on this, by socialization, especially with crops of women socialized to not be needy (not that being needy is a good thing, but so many women are trying to figure out how to need people and not be needy and what that really means and Do Men Really Like Bitches? and what the **** is going on? and it's all kind of an unhealthy smattering all the way around, for both genders). Really, everyone needs everyone.

 

But, of course, no one wants someone "needy" because that implies they need JUST ANYONE. People want to be needed (and wanted) and useful but in the right context. It all gets very confusing.

 

The moment I refer back to (when my Mom explained it to me) was when she told me that my Stepdad had wanted children but everyone thought a new kid would disrupt the family, so she thought he needed to feel like my Dad. This was great, because I needed a (good) Dad too, so even though I guess it sounds a little manipulative to write, it really wasn't intended in that spirit, I don't think. So, she basically encouraged me not to go to her with everything, as my sole parent (the natural thing to do) but to also sometimes go to him, so he could feel like an active and engaged parent. Feel needed. Feel a part of the family, in that way, as well as in his husband way, where my Mom always made him feel needed and important (and he did the same for her).

 

All people seek relationships where they feel needed and important---gone too far in either way, we get unhealthy: needy people who cannot stand on their own create toxic situations, but so do people who can do everything for themselves and don't need anyone to enrich their lives. Nowadays, I think many people are afraid to put their needs and wants and true hearts out there---lest they be rejected or thought of as less. I wanted my Stepdad to be my Dad, but I would never have expressed that had my mother not convinced me he was all about it. I would've been afraid. Even as a kid. And I think we take those kind of fears even further to extremes in romantic relationships, though they exist in friendly and familial relationships.

 

And that's where you get the "A man needs a woman like a fish needs a bicycle" bull****---from some women who are scared. The truth is, everyone (well, most people) needs somebody to love. Why can't we just say so?

 

i agree completely, i think all of that is pretty much spot on.

 

we live in a very narcissistic and fearful society in general, and i think there's a severe lack of direction in people's lives due to that. so many people never tell their kids when they're being cruel, or selfish, or rude, or disrespectful, or any other negative trait that people can have. people grow up in america with a sense of entitlement coupled with a lack of ambition, and i think that leads to a lot of aimless and dysfunctional adults, who abuse and sabotage their adult relationships, then simply disappear when they reach a point of having to deal with the grief they've caused the other person or accept their own shortcomings.

 

and the good people out there encourage the bad by accepting those faults out of loneliness and desire for companionship.

 

that's why this forum is so addictive to me. i am never less than amazed at the 'red flag' conversations that other people have about their relationships, when mine are so, so much less lenient than theirs are.

 

if i were given one shot at changing the relationship landscape in america with a wish, i'd have honest people collectively tell all of these damaged and selfish people that they are not ok, they are not right, they are not better off, and they are not desirable, and then collectively turn their backs on them. then at least the next generation would be somewhat better off.